really on the fence about a person with BPD on list, clarifications

[Guest guest]

Very clearly, the list does read that it is for non-BP children. Those are

pretty clear boundaries. Focus is very important in recovery. We cannot be

there for others until we ourselves are healed.

I could have been on the loop six years ago, and huddled in silence, thinking

all of you were talking about me, yet knowing I needed to learn something too,

because of the common kids-of experiences we all need to explore. But I did not

JOIN this loop until I finally LEARNED about BPD until the fall of the last

presidential election. I refused to read anything about BPD for YEARS. The

diagnosis was that scary to me. I did not want to put my mom in that BPD box.

By now, I am pretty secure in that I have a right to be here and likely only

have many fleas. I am not so sure that there are many places a healing or

healed BPD person can go to deal with the issues we deal with here. And so,

I've want to ask, can we give pdff a chance? My clear sense is that I've waited

too long to ask this question. I was very afraid THAT IF I SPOKE UP without the

level of deep thinking I am sharing now, I would have FELT hurt by group

consensus AND SHAMED MYSELF INTO SILENCE.

Should PDff cannot find a recovery group (or be able to form one) with other

sufferer of BPD where he is not held back by their lack of hope, I WONDER IF we

could COULD CONSIDER giving him a second chance here.

If the answer is a resounding " no, " then I stick with my original conclusion:

Until this group is a place that consciously welcomes folks who are committed to

BPD recovery and self honesty, then this is not a safe place for PdFF either.

Again, we can decide that welcoming those who accept this diagnosis is not in

our best interest.

We must take all feel validated in taking our stand on the compassion/tolerance

scale.

Some of you may be expressing your boundaries better than I, and keeping us

safer.

Just because I am compassionate, does not mean I am CAPABLE of truly tolerating.

I may think I am stronger, more resilient, less trigger-able than I am. I am

grateful for those who call the boundaries more clearly than I can right now.

Thanks for letting me revise and correct some of my errors and language.

Best,

[Guest guest]

Actually, at the Forum called " http://bpdfamily.com " , which defines itself as a

support group for the relatives or spouses, SO's, children or parents of those

with bpd, they do not exclude those with bpd or those who are in treatment

for/recovering from bpd from their membership. It is a more actively monitored

Forum as well.

While I was there, although the request would come up from time to time, the

owners of that forum did *not* wish to create a separate sub-group only for the

non-pd children of bpd parents. I never understood that reasoning and so I was

very glad to find this Group of Randi's.

Truly I found it puzzling that the owners of the BpdFamily Forum did NOT feel it

was necessary to create a sub-group within the " unchosen relationship " category,

specifically for the non-pd adult children of bpd parents: puzzling because they

do have *three separate sub-groups* for those who are in *chosen*

relationships: those who are choosing to stay with bpd spouse, those who are

choosing to divorce their bpd spouse, and those who are undecided about whether

to stay in or leave a marriage with their bpd spouse. Or significant other.

So, there actually is another option, another Group for those with bpd (or in

treatment for/recovering from bpd) who are also the adult children of a parent

with bpd.

-Annie

>

> Very clearly, the list does read that it is for non-BP children. Those are

pretty clear boundaries. Focus is very important in recovery. We cannot be

there for others until we ourselves are healed.

>

> I could have been on the loop six years ago, and huddled in silence, thinking

all of you were talking about me, yet knowing I needed to learn something too,

because of the common kids-of experiences we all need to explore. But I did not

JOIN this loop until I finally LEARNED about BPD until the fall of the last

presidential election. I refused to read anything about BPD for YEARS. The

diagnosis was that scary to me. I did not want to put my mom in that BPD box.

>

> By now, I am pretty secure in that I have a right to be here and likely only

have many fleas. I am not so sure that there are many places a healing or

healed BPD person can go to deal with the issues we deal with here. And so,

I've want to ask, can we give pdff a chance? My clear sense is that I've waited

too long to ask this question. I was very afraid THAT IF I SPOKE UP without the

level of deep thinking I am sharing now, I would have FELT hurt by group

consensus AND SHAMED MYSELF INTO SILENCE.

>

> Should PDff cannot find a recovery group (or be able to form one) with other

sufferer of BPD where he is not held back by their lack of hope, I WONDER IF we

could COULD CONSIDER giving him a second chance here.

>

> If the answer is a resounding " no, " then I stick with my original conclusion:

Until this group is a place that consciously welcomes folks who are committed to

BPD recovery and self honesty, then this is not a safe place for PdFF either.

Again, we can decide that welcoming those who accept this diagnosis is not in

our best interest.

>

> We must take all feel validated in taking our stand on the

compassion/tolerance scale.

>

> Some of you may be expressing your boundaries better than I, and keeping us

safer.

>

> Just because I am compassionate, does not mean I am CAPABLE of truly

tolerating. I may think I am stronger, more resilient, less trigger-able than I

am. I am grateful for those who call the boundaries more clearly than I can

right now.

>

> Thanks for letting me revise and correct some of my errors and language.

>

> Best,

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

From the guidelines sent when I joined (Also in the documents section of the

yahoo group site):

10. People with BPD are allowed on the list, but under special

circumstances. These lists are for family members, and posts must revolve

around their concerns. BP's on the list must realize that people need to

vent and they shouldn't take posts personally. They are most helpful when

explaining BPD behavior and thinking to list members. Borderline members are

on moderation (meaning the facilitators approve of their posts) until we

know the BP understands the guidelines for BPs on the lists. If you are not

comfortable with any BPs on the list (there are very few who post) there is

a group called WTO nons-only where BPs may not join.

Personally I feel that as long as no one gives me crap I don't care who's on

the list. But I do understand that some people may have been triggered by

what was said so it is not wrong to feel differently than I do. As long as

people follow the guidelines (which everyone should reread considering there

seems to be some confusion here) I feel that it shouldn't matter what

someone's status is.

Lars

On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 11:52 AM, V.S. wrote:

> **

>

>

> Very clearly, the list does read that it is for non-BP children. Those are

> pretty clear boundaries. Focus is very important in recovery. We cannot be

> there for others until we ourselves are healed.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I like this post and i support what youre saying. The issue is a bit

complicated. There is a fine line between fleas and bpd and i have wondered if i

am bpd.

Sent from my mobile device.

> Very clearly, the list does read that it is for non-BP children. Those are

pretty clear boundaries. Focus is very important in recovery. We cannot be there

for others until we ourselves are healed.

>

> I could have been on the loop six years ago, and huddled in silence, thinking

all of you were talking about me, yet knowing I needed to learn something too,

because of the common kids-of experiences we all need to explore. But I did not

JOIN this loop until I finally LEARNED about BPD until the fall of the last

presidential election. I refused to read anything about BPD for YEARS. The

diagnosis was that scary to me. I did not want to put my mom in that BPD box.

>

> By now, I am pretty secure in that I have a right to be here and likely only

have many fleas. I am not so sure that there are many places a healing or healed

BPD person can go to deal with the issues we deal with here. And so, I've want

to ask, can we give pdff a chance? My clear sense is that I've waited too long

to ask this question. I was very afraid THAT IF I SPOKE UP without the level of

deep thinking I am sharing now, I would have FELT hurt by group consensus AND

SHAMED MYSELF INTO SILENCE.

>

> Should PDff cannot find a recovery group (or be able to form one) with other

sufferer of BPD where he is not held back by their lack of hope, I WONDER IF we

could COULD CONSIDER giving him a second chance here.

>

> If the answer is a resounding " no, " then I stick with my original conclusion:

Until this group is a place that consciously welcomes folks who are committed to

BPD recovery and self honesty, then this is not a safe place for PdFF either.

Again, we can decide that welcoming those who accept this diagnosis is not in

our best interest.

>

> We must take all feel validated in taking our stand on the

compassion/tolerance scale.

>

> Some of you may be expressing your boundaries better than I, and keeping us

safer.

>

> Just because I am compassionate, does not mean I am CAPABLE of truly

tolerating. I may think I am stronger, more resilient, less trigger-able than I

am. I am grateful for those who call the boundaries more clearly than I can

right now.

>

> Thanks for letting me revise and correct some of my errors and language.

>

> Best,

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have looked for the BPD nons list to join it and not been able to find it. So

it doesn't seem like that's really an option.

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > Very clearly, the list does read that it is for non-BP children. Those are

> > pretty clear boundaries. Focus is very important in recovery. We cannot be

> > there for others until we ourselves are healed.

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

For a few weeks now I have noticed that pdff's replies and posts appear

weird--even BPDish. This was before he confirmed it. He has responded in very

invalidating and, IMHO, dangerous ways to myself, Girlscout, Annie, Echo_Babe,

and others. I noticed he would range from a personality that was very angry and

raging to calm and expert. He would act like an expert on things and at the same

time be giving invalidating advice that actually favored the BPD in the KOs

life. I think it's dangerous to have him here because we are not necessarily

trying to understand our parents. I don't give two Fs about understanding my

nada. All I need to know is how to recover from her abuse that stemmed from her

BPD and how to heal myself so I can feel whole. THAT'S why the KO list is so

different from the other lists. Our personalities were FORMED FROM BIRTH by BPD

parents. That is hugely different from CHOOSING to be in a relationship with a

BP where you can leave or not leave.

I used to occasionally go over to the WTO2 list, where mostly the spouses or SOs

of BPDs come, but it's the general list of relatives, spouses, kids, etc. of

those with BPD. I would see occasionally people who were KOs and suggest they

would come over to our list because they need special treatment. Occasionally,

if I saw a non writing about how it's affecting their kids, I would chime in to

say, listen, I'm a KO, let me give you some things to think about as you

determine how to move forward. I would tell them things like " even if the kids

are acting like they don't like you, fight for them. They might be doing it to

stay on BPD mommy's good side and not get hurt. " That list is a place were a BPD

might be effective in explaining BPD behavior to those who did not grow up with

it. But that is not what we need. Not in my opinion. I rarely ever hear any of

us trying to understand our nada's or fada's behavior in the way we need a BPD

to explain it. Usually we are trying to learn how to reparent ourselves or how

to set our boundaries. I can't not imagine how any of us would need advice from

a BPD. That's like saying a child abuse victim needs advice from a pedophile.

Really?

I know BPD isn't a crime, but none of us on that board are there because we have

NOT been abused. We have all been emotionally or physically abused and that's

what tipped us off to get there. We all thought our entire lives that WE were

crazy.

I support pdff finding a place where he can relate to others with BPD who have

BPD parents or even a group of BPDs trying to be good parents. But I do not

believe the Non-BPD Adult Child list is the place.

In short, the reason I am not in favor of a BPD being on this list is because I

have watched pdff give invalidating and unnurturing advice to many people on

this group. I believe he has broken the guidelines many times in doing so.

Saying, " oh, just don't read his posts " when he is replying to MY posts asking

for help from my fellow KOs as I try to recover from what my nada did to me is

complete and total BS.

Furthermore, it seems like all the conversations on this list now are about him.

In true BPD form, he has hijacked the list to be the center of attention, and in

true KO form, we are all to timid and fearful to say what we really think.

Yup, this is just a great place for KOs now.

And that's me, being 100% completely honest.

>

> > Very clearly, the list does read that it is for non-BP children. Those are

pretty clear boundaries. Focus is very important in recovery. We cannot be there

for others until we ourselves are healed.

> >

> > I could have been on the loop six years ago, and huddled in silence,

thinking all of you were talking about me, yet knowing I needed to learn

something too, because of the common kids-of experiences we all need to explore.

But I did not JOIN this loop until I finally LEARNED about BPD until the fall of

the last presidential election. I refused to read anything about BPD for YEARS.

The diagnosis was that scary to me. I did not want to put my mom in that BPD

box.

> >

> > By now, I am pretty secure in that I have a right to be here and likely only

have many fleas. I am not so sure that there are many places a healing or healed

BPD person can go to deal with the issues we deal with here. And so, I've want

to ask, can we give pdff a chance? My clear sense is that I've waited too long

to ask this question. I was very afraid THAT IF I SPOKE UP without the level of

deep thinking I am sharing now, I would have FELT hurt by group consensus AND

SHAMED MYSELF INTO SILENCE.

> >

> > Should PDff cannot find a recovery group (or be able to form one) with other

sufferer of BPD where he is not held back by their lack of hope, I WONDER IF we

could COULD CONSIDER giving him a second chance here.

> >

> > If the answer is a resounding " no, " then I stick with my original

conclusion: Until this group is a place that consciously welcomes folks who are

committed to BPD recovery and self honesty, then this is not a safe place for

PdFF either. Again, we can decide that welcoming those who accept this diagnosis

is not in our best interest.

> >

> > We must take all feel validated in taking our stand on the

compassion/tolerance scale.

> >

> > Some of you may be expressing your boundaries better than I, and keeping us

safer.

> >

> > Just because I am compassionate, does not mean I am CAPABLE of truly

tolerating. I may think I am stronger, more resilient, less trigger-able than I

am. I am grateful for those who call the boundaries more clearly than I can

right now.

> >

> > Thanks for letting me revise and correct some of my errors and language.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

So this statement actually triggered me. Sounds a lot like the mind reading

distortion to me and reminds me of what my nada does- takes someone's behavior

and then assigns it a motivation to prove her point. Note: I am sure that it

was your intention to trigger me, and I'm not trying to invalidate your very

real feelings.

My personal take on why this issue is getting so much attention is that a lot of

us are trying to work out how we feel because it does directly relate to how we

handle our triggers and whether we feel safe on the list. I am actually really

impressed with so many people knowing where their boundaries are and other

people having the courage to take opposing views.

Really I guess what should have happened is printed at the bottom of every

message: Problems? Write @.... DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST.

Perhaps if something similar happens in the future not everybody will need/want

to share their two cents. I would also like to say that I am not going to waste

my time posting if it's not how I really feel so you can generally count on me

to speak my true mind. people with a problem should probably write the email

above if they haven't already.

<3 to all!

Lars

>

> Furthermore, it seems like all the conversations on this list now are about

him. In true BPD form, he has hijacked the list to be the center of attention,

and in true KO form, we are all to timid and fearful to say what we really

think.

>

> Yup, this is just a great place for KOs now.

>

> And that's me, being 100% completely honest.

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Lars, it was certainly not my intention to trigger you. And I just want to

clarify that I have written the list moderator a number of times, and they

refuse to do anything. I know others have as well written the moderator with

their concerns.

I am not assigning a motivation to the behavior, rather, I am doing what every

other person in the world does, and that is assess a situation, the way a person

is responding, and the tone of their responses. I did not come up with some

alternate reality and then try and make pdff's behavior fit it, as you suggest a

BPD would do. As any sane person would do, I looked at the initial behavior, the

REAL behavior, comments, and tone, and responded to that.

In fact, I am very clearly trying not to read his mind. He has written some very

real invalidating posts to me. And whether or not that was his intention, that's

what he wrote. So that is not assigning a feeling to create a fact. And the

backtracking I have witnessed after he makes a invalidating comment (like we

should all be grateful for our pain and are wizards) is more of the triggering

behavior that you mention, not my calling it out.

Since I have no further investment in this group, I'm going to go ahead and call

you out as trying to bait me into this argument by accusing me of BPD behavior.

Again, I certainly did not want to trigger anyone, but there are clearly many of

us on here who are not comfortable with someone who presents so much instability

to the list (forget that he has admitted to having BPD) and the list moderators

are ignoring us. Hence why I, and I guess others, have brought it to the

attention of the group.

Thank you to all who have provided amazing support and been there for me in my

time of need. I have found a group of people here who are/were truly safe and I

could say things that I could never say to anyone else, and nor would anyone

else understand. I am sad that the sanctity and safety of this group, as I

perceive it, has been breached. But as I am no longer comfortable posting based

on the way the guidelines are being enforced, this will be my last post/reply.

Again, I want to thank you all for being there for me. Really, you don't know

the change you have made in my life.

Good wishes and healing to all,

afldancer

>

> So this statement actually triggered me. Sounds a lot like the mind reading

distortion to me and reminds me of what my nada does- takes someone's behavior

and then assigns it a motivation to prove her point. Note: I am sure that it

was your intention to trigger me, and I'm not trying to invalidate your very

real feelings.

>

> My personal take on why this issue is getting so much attention is that a lot

of us are trying to work out how we feel because it does directly relate to how

we handle our triggers and whether we feel safe on the list. I am actually

really impressed with so many people knowing where their boundaries are and

other people having the courage to take opposing views.

>

> Really I guess what should have happened is printed at the bottom of every

message: Problems? Write @... DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST.

>

> Perhaps if something similar happens in the future not everybody will

need/want to share their two cents. I would also like to say that I am not

going to waste my time posting if it's not how I really feel so you can

generally count on me to speak my true mind. people with a problem should

probably write the email above if they haven't already.

> <3 to all!

> Lars

> >

> > Furthermore, it seems like all the conversations on this list now are about

him. In true BPD form, he has hijacked the list to be the center of attention,

and in true KO form, we are all to timid and fearful to say what we really

think.

> >

> > Yup, this is just a great place for KOs now.

> >

> > And that's me, being 100% completely honest.

> >

> > -

>

[Guest guest]

hey afldancer.

I hate to see you leave, i hate to see anyone leave because they do not want to.

I left the group for about a month or so and I guess I missed this part of the

drama. I feel like I spoke too soon about not caring about the person because I

had never seen the name before and assumed it was his or her first post.

I did not know the member was harassing other people. I left because I felt like

someone I disagreed with once was 'coming after' me and I noticed about a dozen

times things I posted were not making it to the board so I assumed/assume that

this person was a moderator, as well as not being fond of me personally. I don't

have any faith in the dynamics of message boards, especially behind the scenes

in the 'private message' world of trying to get moderators to step in, and well,

if the person you have conflict with IS one, you are toast. I personally like to

know who the moderators are, but here apparently that is not public knowledge.

Off and on over the few years here I have had a handful of bad experiences. I

mentioned before feeling harangued about someone's views on addiction. I had a

member write me a private message and accuse me of being racist because I said a

superior of mine who was a Japanese national had complimented me by calling me a

'hard worker'...something American workers almost never hear from a culture in

which 12 hour days are the norm, not the exception. I was personally thrilled

about the compliment and flabbergasted that my motives for relating it could be

so badly misconstrued. Now I understand there are just so many fleas on all of

us. I know we are extra sensitive to this stuff, because most of us had zero

allies as children, and many of our parents could charm the pants off of a

preacher. That sense of desolation and hopelessness overwhelms me quite a bit

when I come upon certain situations. I certainly understand the need to take a

break. I went to the narcissist KO board and found it less active, more

populated with males which for me is safer and way less triggering, and a nice

contrast. It feels good having two places I can share about this stuff.

For some odd reason whenever I work two jobs I feel way more mentally healthy

than when I only have one. I truly believe that when I have one job, it takes on

the imprimatur of family. when I have two, I stay way more detached, they are

just jobs.

I guess if it is the policy to have no bpd's that needs to be enforced. one

thing i have noticed is that it is very hard to detect the bpd/npd casually but

one thing that always gives it away is throwing digs. insulting me right to my

face in very subtle ways (in person). when I met people who turned out to be

bpd, later on, i always could look back and identify the high signs, which were

the first few digs belying obvious unkindness in the person. I did not know this

was already happening. I guess I should have figured it out since people here

generally are kind and fair-minded and supportive, that some events had prefaced

all the protest.

> >

> > So this statement actually triggered me. Sounds a lot like the mind reading

distortion to me and reminds me of what my nada does- takes someone's behavior

and then assigns it a motivation to prove her point. Note: I am sure that it

was your intention to trigger me, and I'm not trying to invalidate your very

real feelings.

> >

> > My personal take on why this issue is getting so much attention is that a

lot of us are trying to work out how we feel because it does directly relate to

how we handle our triggers and whether we feel safe on the list. I am actually

really impressed with so many people knowing where their boundaries are and

other people having the courage to take opposing views.

> >

> > Really I guess what should have happened is printed at the bottom of every

message: Problems? Write @ DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST.

> >

> > Perhaps if something similar happens in the future not everybody will

need/want to share their two cents. I would also like to say that I am not

going to waste my time posting if it's not how I really feel so you can

generally count on me to speak my true mind. people with a problem should

probably write the email above if they haven't already.

> > <3 to all!

> > Lars

> > >

> > > Furthermore, it seems like all the conversations on this list now are

about him. In true BPD form, he has hijacked the list to be the center of

attention, and in true KO form, we are all to timid and fearful to say what we

really think.

> > >

> > > Yup, this is just a great place for KOs now.

> > >

> > > And that's me, being 100% completely honest.

> > >

> > > -

> >

>