Empathy and forgiveness - and my estranged BPD dad.

September 24, 2011

Hello to all - I'm a new member.

My story is that long ago, I have sucessfully cut myself off from my father. I

don't have anything to do with him and he, for his part, phones me up every

couple of years to hassle me and that's about it.

For the longest time I just had him down as a psychopath, a totally evil,

cynical entity out for himself at the expense of everyone else, including me.

But new information has come to light, as they say, and I finally worked out

that my father suffers from BPD. He's like a psychopath, violent, selfish,

criminal - but he's emotional. And as such I suddenly have a lot more empathy

with him - at least he feels! But I don't know, how does that relate to

forgiveness?

He did a lot of really evil, terrible things to me, sadistic horrible abuse when

I was a kid, and he doesn't even know he's done them because he lives in that

BPD-land that they have, Borderville or Oz or whatever you want to call it. So

is he responsible?

I don't know if I can forgive him - but my shrink has prescribed empathy, and to

be honest I agree with her, although I have reservations. It's just such a big

thing that has happened to me - I've got this new information that he is

basically a very needy person rather than the cold, evil man that he tried to

make himself into, and now I'm really confused. Shouldn't I at least contact

him?

He is 63, and considering the amount of drink and drugs that have been through

his system not to mention his massive smoking habit, he might not even make 70.

Hell, he might not make 64 considering how much he winds people up. I don't like

him much but he did bring me up and he educated me well, and I don't want him to

die not knowing that in some nebulous way I feel kinship with him, even forgive

him maybe. It's just that he's so bloody dangerous! and not just to other people

- I've often wanted to do him harm in the past myself. How do you cope with

that? The dichotomy - yes he does terrible things, but is it really his fault?

I've worked out what probably made him that way and I do feel empathy for him,

but it's so dangerous to fall under his spell again... 'cause what he does is so

classic BPD, he makes friends with you then he gets upset and abuses you, and I

just can't take that... I dunno, what do people think?

September 25, 2011

I've just been NC with my dad since 2009, and he's not nearly as

psychopathic as you describe your dad--but certainly not safe for me or

anyone else to be around because he's the master of gaslighting and spin.

There's a couple of things I've learned from being on this group, and I'm

sure others will share their knowledge, too.

You can't forgive someone who doesn't want to be forgiven. At least, not in

the usual sense of " Oh, let bygones be bygones and we'll continue our

relationship. " You could forgive someone for your own sake, so that you can

move on with your own life and leave him and his behavior in the past. It

helps some people to do that sort of forgiveness. But for me, I see it as a

two-way road. They need to ask it or want it, they need to see what they did

wrong, in order to be forgiven.

I wish I was good with coming up with metaphors or similes, but here's a

try. Say there's a mean dog--the dog attacks all who come close or try to

care for it. I could have empathy for the dog--it was abused as a puppy, and

now it doesn't know how to behave or not hurt people who try to care for it.

But that doesn't mean I have to trust the dog, or keep trying to see the dog

only to get mauled every time. The dog is simply too dangerous to be around

because it has a much different perspective on life than most other dogs.

So, I could empathize from afar, but that doesn't mean I have to make

contact with the dog. I have a healthy fear of it for a reason.

So, that's how I see my dad. I have a healthy fear of him from my past

interactions with him, but I'm NOT going to be contacting him. At least, not

anytime soon. He's consistently proven to be unsafe. Even though I've

recently found out that his dad was emotionally distant to him, which could

contribute to his mental illness, I still don't trust my dad because he is

what he is.

So, you don't have to feel obligated to contact your dad, if you truly do

feel unsafe with him. Your first priority is your own personal safety and

well-being.

On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 6:38 PM, badnewswade

wrote:

> **

>

> Hello to all - I'm a new member.

>

> My story is that long ago, I have sucessfully cut myself off from my

> father. I don't have anything to do with him and he, for his part, phones me

> up every couple of years to hassle me and that's about it.

>

> For the longest time I just had him down as a psychopath, a totally evil,

> cynical entity out for himself at the expense of everyone else, including

> me. But new information has come to light, as they say, and I finally worked

> out that my father suffers from BPD. He's like a psychopath, violent,

> selfish, criminal - but he's emotional. And as such I suddenly have a lot

> more empathy with him - at least he feels! But I don't know, how does that

> relate to forgiveness?

>

> He did a lot of really evil, terrible things to me, sadistic horrible abuse

> when I was a kid, and he doesn't even know he's done them because he lives

> in that BPD-land that they have, Borderville or Oz or whatever you want to

> call it. So is he responsible?

>

> I don't know if I can forgive him - but my shrink has prescribed empathy,

> and to be honest I agree with her, although I have reservations. It's just

> such a big thing that has happened to me - I've got this new information

> that he is basically a very needy person rather than the cold, evil man that

> he tried to make himself into, and now I'm really confused. Shouldn't I at

> least contact him?

>

> He is 63, and considering the amount of drink and drugs that have been

> through his system not to mention his massive smoking habit, he might not

> even make 70. Hell, he might not make 64 considering how much he winds

> people up. I don't like him much but he did bring me up and he educated me

> well, and I don't want him to die not knowing that in some nebulous way I

> feel kinship with him, even forgive him maybe. It's just that he's so bloody

> dangerous! and not just to other people - I've often wanted to do him harm

> in the past myself. How do you cope with that? The dichotomy - yes he does

> terrible things, but is it really his fault? I've worked out what probably

> made him that way and I do feel empathy for him, but it's so dangerous to

> fall under his spell again... 'cause what he does is so classic BPD, he

> makes friends with you then he gets upset and abuses you, and I just can't

> take that... I dunno, what do people think?

>

September 25, 2011

Hello and welcome to the group.

I think that worrying about whose fault the things are nadas and

fadas do is a losing battle. My take on it is that they chose to

do the things they've done, but their mechanism for making

choices is broken. They didn't ask to have BPD but for the most

part they haven't tried to get help for it either.

I think it helps to look at them as being similar to rabid dogs.

When a dog gets rabies, it isn't the dog's fault. That doesn't

mean you should just let the dog bite you though. You have to

protect yourself from the rapid dog even if it didn't choose to

have rabies. Similarly, we need to protect ourselves from our

parents with BPD. Whether they are to blame for what they do is

beside the point where that's concerned. We can feel sorry that

they have a mental illness, but we can feel compassion for their

struggles, but we still have to take appropriate steps to

protect ourselves from them.

Do you want to make contact with your father? If you don't want

to, then don't. Changing your idea about what is wrong with him

doesn't change what he did to you. If he was sadistic, he is

probably still sadistic regardless of what is going on in his

head to make him that way. If you want to give him another

chance because you think you understand him better now and might

be able to deal with him now, that's also a valid choice. If you

choose to contact him, don't get your hopes up too much though.

At 07:38 PM 09/24/2011 badnewswade wrote:

>Hello to all - I'm a new member.

>

>My story is that long ago, I have sucessfully cut myself off

>from my father. I don't have anything to do with him and he,

>for his part, phones me up every couple of years to hassle me

>and that's about it.

>

>For the longest time I just had him down as a psychopath, a

>totally evil, cynical entity out for himself at the expense of

>everyone else, including me. But new information has come to

>light, as they say, and I finally worked out that my father

>suffers from BPD. He's like a psychopath, violent, selfish,

>criminal - but he's emotional. And as such I suddenly have a

>lot more empathy with him - at least he feels! But I don't

>know, how does that relate to forgiveness?

>

>He did a lot of really evil, terrible things to me, sadistic

>horrible abuse when I was a kid, and he doesn't even know he's

>done them because he lives in that BPD-land that they have,

>Borderville or Oz or whatever you want to call it. So is he

>responsible?

>

>I don't know if I can forgive him - but my shrink has

>prescribed empathy, and to be honest I agree with her, although

>I have reservations. It's just such a big thing that has

>happened to me - I've got this new information that he is

>basically a very needy person rather than the cold, evil man

>that he tried to make himself into, and now I'm really

>confused. Shouldn't I at least contact him?

>

>He is 63, and considering the amount of drink and drugs that

>have been through his system not to mention his massive smoking

>habit, he might not even make 70. Hell, he might not make 64

>considering how much he winds people up. I don't like him much

>but he did bring me up and he educated me well, and I don't

>want him to die not knowing that in some nebulous way I feel

>kinship with him, even forgive him maybe. It's just that he's

>so bloody dangerous! and not just to other people - I've often

>wanted to do him harm in the past myself. How do you cope with

>that? The dichotomy - yes he does terrible things, but is it

>really his fault? I've worked out what probably made him that

>way and I do feel empathy for him, but it's so dangerous to

>fall under his spell again... 'cause what he does is so classic

>BPD, he makes friends with you then he gets upset and abuses

>you, and I just can't take that... I dunno, what do people

>think?

--

Katrina

September 25, 2011

Thanks to both of you!

I agree with this analysis. I've been doing a lot of thinking, and I've even

worked out what caused him to be that way - his parents were in a loveless 1940s

type marraige and he was their first kid, and probably the reason they had to

get married in the first place, so he likely didn't get much affection,

particularly from his mum who was very much a faded ice queen even when I knew

her.

His whole family is quite loveless and very much build on the sham of almost a

forced marraige, cos of course if a woman got pregnant back then she had to

marry the father and have the kid however unsuited they were and it really

shows, none of them are really what you'd call affectionate or even particularly

" human " , preferring the stereotype, emotionless behaviour of middle class

English culture... all very sad and so on, but I don't deserve to suffer, do I?

I mean, he treated me like crap and I didn't turn out like him. Even though I

have my moments of feeling needy and weird sometimes I avoid taking it out on

others because that's just wrong.

On top of the BPD he seems quite sociopathic - he lives off others, either by

" scrounging " in some way or by crime, he used to say that mistreating me was OK

because it made him feel better, he really is just a totally self centred

person.

So yeah, I recognise that yours is good advice; reading the messages here

reminds me so much of my struggle to get away from him. It's just so very sad; I

wish I could tell him that I understand and all. At his worst, sure, he is a

monster in Hell, but he is capable of goodness and that's what really hurts. In

some nebulous way he's chosen evil, like Darth Vader or something. It just makes

me want to cry sometimes.

> >Hello to all - I'm a new member.

> >

> >My story is that long ago, I have sucessfully cut myself off

> >from my father. I don't have anything to do with him and he,

> >for his part, phones me up every couple of years to hassle me

> >and that's about it.

> >

> >For the longest time I just had him down as a psychopath, a

> >totally evil, cynical entity out for himself at the expense of

> >everyone else, including me. But new information has come to

> >light, as they say, and I finally worked out that my father

> >suffers from BPD. He's like a psychopath, violent, selfish,

> >criminal - but he's emotional. And as such I suddenly have a

> >lot more empathy with him - at least he feels! But I don't

> >know, how does that relate to forgiveness?

> >

> >He did a lot of really evil, terrible things to me, sadistic

> >horrible abuse when I was a kid, and he doesn't even know he's

> >done them because he lives in that BPD-land that they have,

> >Borderville or Oz or whatever you want to call it. So is he

> >responsible?

> >

> >I don't know if I can forgive him - but my shrink has

> >prescribed empathy, and to be honest I agree with her, although

> >I have reservations. It's just such a big thing that has

> >happened to me - I've got this new information that he is

> >basically a very needy person rather than the cold, evil man

> >that he tried to make himself into, and now I'm really

> >confused. Shouldn't I at least contact him?

> >

> >He is 63, and considering the amount of drink and drugs that

> >have been through his system not to mention his massive smoking

> >habit, he might not even make 70. Hell, he might not make 64

> >considering how much he winds people up. I don't like him much

> >but he did bring me up and he educated me well, and I don't

> >want him to die not knowing that in some nebulous way I feel

> >kinship with him, even forgive him maybe. It's just that he's

> >so bloody dangerous! and not just to other people - I've often

> >wanted to do him harm in the past myself. How do you cope with

> >that? The dichotomy - yes he does terrible things, but is it

> >really his fault? I've worked out what probably made him that

> >way and I do feel empathy for him, but it's so dangerous to

> >fall under his spell again... 'cause what he does is so classic

> >BPD, he makes friends with you then he gets upset and abuses

> >you, and I just can't take that... I dunno, what do people

> >think?

>

> --

> Katrina

>

September 27, 2011

I don't know how someone can 'prescribe' empathy. Either you feel it or you

don't. It's clear when you found out he was emotional and needy you felt

empathy.

It seems to me though that if the things that you might think would be important

to him actually were, he would be contacting you, first with an apology and

sincere desire to make amends for the past (*without* asking for anything in

return, including forgiveness). Once that is out of the way, a path could be

cleared for more interaction. The fact that you are capable of feeling gratitude

toward a sadistic tormentor shows that you are a very thoughtful, reasonable

person who is able to take each circumstance, filter it out from the group,

examine it, and attribute unique emotions to it without lumping everything

together. That's a great characteristic to have...and only relates to what a

good person you are, not what a great person he might be.

I generally disagree with any counseling that puts the needs (actual or

presumed) of an abusive parent in front of the continued emotional protection of

their child,which it seems is what this therapist is doing. If you wanted you

could write a confrontation letter listing every sadistic thing that he ever did

and see how it is received. It would give him a chance to make amends before he

died, and right those wrongs in this life. If however he denies any of it then

you have your answer. I think there is a subtle tendency in your therapist to

put the assumed emotional state and needs of the parent above your actual

experiences and emotional reactions. When I see this, i always feel like the

party involved is protecting an aspect of themselves relating to their own

experience with their own parents, at the expense of their client, or friend, or

sponsee, or whatever person to whom they are giving counsel.

>

> Hello to all - I'm a new member.

>

> My story is that long ago, I have sucessfully cut myself off from my father. I

don't have anything to do with him and he, for his part, phones me up every

couple of years to hassle me and that's about it.

>

> For the longest time I just had him down as a psychopath, a totally evil,

cynical entity out for himself at the expense of everyone else, including me.

But new information has come to light, as they say, and I finally worked out

that my father suffers from BPD. He's like a psychopath, violent, selfish,

criminal - but he's emotional. And as such I suddenly have a lot more empathy

with him - at least he feels! But I don't know, how does that relate to

forgiveness?

>

> He did a lot of really evil, terrible things to me, sadistic horrible abuse

when I was a kid, and he doesn't even know he's done them because he lives in

that BPD-land that they have, Borderville or Oz or whatever you want to call it.

So is he responsible?

>

> I don't know if I can forgive him - but my shrink has prescribed empathy, and

to be honest I agree with her, although I have reservations. It's just such a

big thing that has happened to me - I've got this new information that he is

basically a very needy person rather than the cold, evil man that he tried to

make himself into, and now I'm really confused. Shouldn't I at least contact

him?

>

> He is 63, and considering the amount of drink and drugs that have been through