What do I about a sibling that doesn't get it?

[Guest guest]

Thanks to all for your posts concerning " Got me from the grave " . Your shared

experiences, insights, and comments, as well as the community you all provide

are very, very helpful. And now to the next topic.

My 64 yr old brother lived with nada his entire life! He was completely

controlled and manipulated by her. And has NO IDEA there is a problem! He shut

off his feelings and his life. He would never call me because she'd read him

the riot act for talking to me. He quit visiting me (I live in another state)

because " she couldn't be left alone " . I offered to pay for a caregiver many

times, but he said that wouldn't work and that I just didn't understand.

Well, now she's dead, and it's like someone flipped a switch. He thinks life

goes on the same as always, everything's ok now that she's out of the picture,

and let's pick up where we left off 13 years ago (that last time he visited me).

EXCEPT life isn't the same. I've been through therapy, work on my issues,

realize she was mentally ill, and know that he hasn't gotten to first base with

any of this. He has no idea that he's been complicit in her abuse (e.g., that he

mailed the " nasty-grams " that she'd write to me, and he never called me because

she didn't want him to) - heck, he doesn't even realize that there WAS abuse!

He can't interpret my words when I say that she was mentally ill. And he

certainly doesn't realize that he's emotionally disturbed even though he never

emancipated. He's never dated, bought a house, rented an apartment, worried

about bills, - no real life experiences because he never left home. And he

doesn't think that his life is unusual! He just sealed off those thoughts and

emotions - or so he thinks. He is angry about everything except what he should

be angry about. He directs is anger at safe things - awful remarks about

strangers and neighbors. Not to them, just about them. That's the extent of

our recent conversations - he just puts down everybody. As my therapist would

say - his anger is coming out sideways. He's never let himself be angry in a

good way, and use it to change his life.

So where does that leave me and my relationship with him? I think it would be a

waste of breath trying to educate him about all of this. I've tried to get him

to go to therapy - that was a flop. I hate to think that the answer is for me to

walk away -- as I did from nada. But to hide my truth and feelings from him

would be to have a dishonest relationship. And he seems incapable of absorbing

any of this reality. Perhaps I need to realize that he could also be mentally

ill? What do you do about " unknowning " siblings????

[Guest guest]

Its very sad, but if your brother is either unwilling or unable to admit that

his behaviors toward you were very hurtful (he was basically your nada's

" henchman " and participated in/enabled her attempts to hurt you) and unwilling

or unable to apologize, if he is unwilling or unable to realize that he's had a

very blighted, unnatural life as the virtual " spouse " of his mother, and if he

is actively refusing to even consider another perspective, consider change or

growth, then, there isn't much hope that you will be able to have a more normal

brother-sister relationship with him.

Sounds to me like your brother is living in a state of nearly complete denial:

" Everything is fine, I am fine, I am normal: its you, " S " , who's being mean

/unreasonable /unempathetic, etc. "

That inability or unwillingness to admit that he has done unkind things to you,

that he needs to take personal responsibility for his own negative behaviors and

words, that he needs to apologize to you and actively work with you on having a

better relationship... that denial speaks of personality disorder, to me.

I'm no psychologist, I'm just going on my own experience and the books I've read

about personality disorder. But if I understand what I've read correctly, one

of the defining characteristics of personality disorder (any of the personality

disorders) is that the pd person is *not distressed* by his or her own negative,

skewed thoughts, feelings, perceptions or behaviors; the pd person feels that he

or she is normal and its everyone else who is crazy /mean /hateful and causing

all the problems. Personality disorder is therefor considered an

" ego-syntonic " condition, and its why those with pds rarely if ever seek

therapy. " There's nothing wrong with me, why should *I* go get psychotherapy?

*You're* the one who needs therapy! " is the way " ego-syntonic " thinks.

So, RE your question " Where does that leave me? " , it leaves you with very few

options. You can decide to have limited contact with your brother and create

protective boundaries for yourself based on what behaviors of his you can and

can't tolerate. Or you can choose to go No Contact if you feel that being

around him is causing you continuing or additional stress/trauma and is having a

negative impact on your mental or physical health. Or you can just leave things

the way they are.

Its up to you to decide what will work best for you. If you choose to try

limited contact with boundaries, the members here can give you examples of how

limited contact is working or not working for them, suggestions for books to

read about setting boundaries, and things like that.

Bottom line: you can't change your brother. All you can do is change how you,

yourself, choose to react to him.

-Annie

>

> Thanks to all for your posts concerning " Got me from the grave " . Your shared

experiences, insights, and comments, as well as the community you all provide

are very, very helpful. And now to the next topic.

>

> My 64 yr old brother lived with nada his entire life! He was completely

controlled and manipulated by her. And has NO IDEA there is a problem! He shut

off his feelings and his life. He would never call me because she'd read him

the riot act for talking to me. He quit visiting me (I live in another state)

because " she couldn't be left alone " . I offered to pay for a caregiver many

times, but he said that wouldn't work and that I just didn't understand.

>

> Well, now she's dead, and it's like someone flipped a switch. He thinks life

goes on the same as always, everything's ok now that she's out of the picture,

and let's pick up where we left off 13 years ago (that last time he visited me).

EXCEPT life isn't the same. I've been through therapy, work on my issues,

realize she was mentally ill, and know that he hasn't gotten to first base with

any of this. He has no idea that he's been complicit in her abuse (e.g., that he

mailed the " nasty-grams " that she'd write to me, and he never called me because

she didn't want him to) - heck, he doesn't even realize that there WAS abuse!

He can't interpret my words when I say that she was mentally ill. And he

certainly doesn't realize that he's emotionally disturbed even though he never

emancipated. He's never dated, bought a house, rented an apartment, worried

about bills, - no real life experiences because he never left home. And he

doesn't think that his life is unusual! He just sealed off those thoughts and

emotions - or so he thinks. He is angry about everything except what he should

be angry about. He directs is anger at safe things - awful remarks about

strangers and neighbors. Not to them, just about them. That's the extent of

our recent conversations - he just puts down everybody. As my therapist would

say - his anger is coming out sideways. He's never let himself be angry in a

good way, and use it to change his life.

>

> So where does that leave me and my relationship with him? I think it would be

a waste of breath trying to educate him about all of this. I've tried to get

him to go to therapy - that was a flop. I hate to think that the answer is for

me to walk away -- as I did from nada. But to hide my truth and feelings from

him would be to have a dishonest relationship. And he seems incapable of

absorbing any of this reality. Perhaps I need to realize that he could also be

mentally ill? What do you do about " unknowning " siblings????

>

[Guest guest]

What a thoughtful, thorough response. Thank you so much!

You laid it out just how it is. I am so emotional over all of this that I can't

think straight. It's like too much - I had only momentary relief over nada

being out of the picture, and now he's suddenly re-entering my life. To put it

bluntly, I am so sick and tired of dealing with mental illness that I could

scream. Instead of being able to relax and finish healing now that nada is out

of the picture -- now I'm saying " one down and one to go " . I guess that I was

also in denial that my brother would become the new issue. So here he is, and

you are ever so right - he lived his life like a virtual spouse to my

long-widowed nada, was complicit in her abuse to me, didn't realize that he was

being abused, and certainly doesn't understand what " my " problem is - why

couldn't I get along? And I have to believe that he is unable (vs unwilling) to

recognize any of this. I will never receive an apology, so can't waste another

minute longing for what will never be.

That said, I feel like I want to try the conservative approach of setting

boundaries and having limited contact. But,I am tired of all of this " how do I

deal with mental illness " stuff, very tired. And enforcing boundaries is never

ending and takes a lot of energy. So as time goes on, I will have to play it by

ear. Am I getting anywhere near the relationship I want for what it takes to

achieve it? I guess time will tell. Usually I know when I've had it. Oh well.

And life goes on.

Does anyone out there know of a good book to read about dealing with an

unknowing and probably personality-disordered sibling?

S.

> >

> > Thanks to all for your posts concerning " Got me from the grave " . Your

shared experiences, insights, and comments, as well as the community you all

provide are very, very helpful. And now to the next topic.

> >

> > My 64 yr old brother lived with nada his entire life! He was completely

controlled and manipulated by her. And has NO IDEA there is a problem! He shut

off his feelings and his life. He would never call me because she'd read him

the riot act for talking to me. He quit visiting me (I live in another state)

because " she couldn't be left alone " . I offered to pay for a caregiver many

times, but he said that wouldn't work and that I just didn't understand.

> >

> > Well, now she's dead, and it's like someone flipped a switch. He thinks

life goes on the same as always, everything's ok now that she's out of the

picture, and let's pick up where we left off 13 years ago (that last time he

visited me). EXCEPT life isn't the same. I've been through therapy, work on my

issues, realize she was mentally ill, and know that he hasn't gotten to first

base with any of this. He has no idea that he's been complicit in her abuse

(e.g., that he mailed the " nasty-grams " that she'd write to me, and he never

called me because she didn't want him to) - heck, he doesn't even realize that

there WAS abuse! He can't interpret my words when I say that she was mentally

ill. And he certainly doesn't realize that he's emotionally disturbed even

though he never emancipated. He's never dated, bought a house, rented an

apartment, worried about bills, - no real life experiences because he never left

home. And he doesn't think that his life is unusual! He just sealed off those

thoughts and emotions - or so he thinks. He is angry about everything except

what he should be angry about. He directs is anger at safe things - awful

remarks about strangers and neighbors. Not to them, just about them. That's

the extent of our recent conversations - he just puts down everybody. As my

therapist would say - his anger is coming out sideways. He's never let himself

be angry in a good way, and use it to change his life.

> >

> > So where does that leave me and my relationship with him? I think it would

be a waste of breath trying to educate him about all of this. I've tried to get

him to go to therapy - that was a flop. I hate to think that the answer is for

me to walk away -- as I did from nada. But to hide my truth and feelings from

him would be to have a dishonest relationship. And he seems incapable of

absorbing any of this reality. Perhaps I need to realize that he could also be

mentally ill? What do you do about " unknowning " siblings????

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You're welcome!

To me, personally, there is nothing wrong with taking a temporary " time out "

from a relationship (unless you are the parent of minor children depending on

your care and attention; then that's not a viable option) in order to have some

peace, begin healing, to get your health back, or to gain some distance and a

new perspective on things. There is nothing immoral or unethical or anything

negative about it. People take vacations and sabbaticals all the time.

Maybe you could say something to your brother like:

" Everything surrounding mother's death has stressed me out more than I ever

thought possible. I very badly need some time to just be alone, rest, re-charge

my batteries, and get centered again. So, I'm letting you know that I won't be

in contact with you for (6 days /weeks /months, whatever feels right to you).

If there is an emergency you can leave a message with X person or leave a

message at X number, but I won't be able to respond quickly. I'm just letting

you know this up front so you won't worry. Thanks for understanding. I'll let

you know when I'm back from my " retreat " . "

So, its just temporary, and its about you, not him. You're not asking his

permission, or getting him to agree to it, you're just letting him know that you

will not be contactable for a certain period of time, that's all. Its not

necessary to tell him anything else, such as where you will be; its not his

business. You could be at home the whole time, but its YOUR " sabbatical. "

And, I think Randi's newer book, the Essential Family Guide to bpd, has more

updated information, suggestions and advice about how to handle a family member

with bpd than her first book, Stop Walking On Eggshells. There is also a book

called " Boundaries " by Cloud and Townsend that is coming from a more spiritual

perspective, from what I've heard, that gets recommended here from time to time.

-Annie

>

> What a thoughtful, thorough response. Thank you so much!

> You laid it out just how it is. I am so emotional over all of this that I

can't think straight. It's like too much - I had only momentary relief over

nada being out of the picture, and now he's suddenly re-entering my life. To

put it bluntly, I am so sick and tired of dealing with mental illness that I

could scream. Instead of being able to relax and finish healing now that nada

is out of the picture -- now I'm saying " one down and one to go " . I guess that

I was also in denial that my brother would become the new issue. So here he is,

and you are ever so right - he lived his life like a virtual spouse to my

long-widowed nada, was complicit in her abuse to me, didn't realize that he was

being abused, and certainly doesn't understand what " my " problem is - why

couldn't I get along? And I have to believe that he is unable (vs unwilling) to

recognize any of this. I will never receive an apology, so can't waste another

minute longing for what will never be.

>

> That said, I feel like I want to try the conservative approach of setting

boundaries and having limited contact. But,I am tired of all of this " how do I

deal with mental illness " stuff, very tired. And enforcing boundaries is never

ending and takes a lot of energy. So as time goes on, I will have to play it by

ear. Am I getting anywhere near the relationship I want for what it takes to

achieve it? I guess time will tell. Usually I know when I've had it. Oh well.

And life goes on.

>

> Does anyone out there know of a good book to read about dealing with an

unknowing and probably personality-disordered sibling?

>

> S.

[Guest guest]

My brother is much like yours, S.

He coddles nada a lot, tries to have a life, but she pouts and tells him how

lonely she is and he comes over and spends every other weekend with her.

I have thought often of what he is going to be like when she goes. It's so hard

to have a conversation with him where he doesn't bring her up. I would like to

be closer to him, but it's scary b/c to me, he IS her. Everything I say goes

back to her, whatever I tell her, goes to him.

Anger issues, same with my brother: when he talks, you can hear his repressed

anger against my mother (at her not " allowing " him to have his own life apart

from her) but it comes out against other people. It's rage sometimes, lots of

cursing, etc.

I don't know if your brother is mentally ill, but if he's like my brother (and

like I was), he's been marinating so long in bpd behavior, he doesn't know he

can have wellness and a real life. He's going to have to reach the point where

he wants healing. I'm sure he's been wanting a relationship with you, but after

64 years of your nada steering him, he figures you realize it wasn't him mailing

those letters, he had to! It was her! You may have to have a heart to heart

with him at a neutral location you can easily escape from, if necessary.

I hope for healing for your relationship with him.

Fiona

>

> Thanks to all for your posts concerning " Got me from the grave " . Your shared

experiences, insights, and comments, as well as the community you all provide

are very, very helpful. And now to the next topic.

>

> My 64 yr old brother lived with nada his entire life! He was completely

controlled and manipulated by her. And has NO IDEA there is a problem! He shut

off his feelings and his life. He would never call me because she'd read him

the riot act for talking to me. He quit visiting me (I live in another state)

because " she couldn't be left alone " . I offered to pay for a caregiver many

times, but he said that wouldn't work and that I just didn't understand.

>

> Well, now she's dead, and it's like someone flipped a switch. He thinks life

goes on the same as always, everything's ok now that she's out of the picture,

and let's pick up where we left off 13 years ago (that last time he visited me).

EXCEPT life isn't the same. I've been through therapy, work on my issues,

realize she was mentally ill, and know that he hasn't gotten to first base with

any of this. He has no idea that he's been complicit in her abuse (e.g., that he

mailed the " nasty-grams " that she'd write to me, and he never called me because

she didn't want him to) - heck, he doesn't even realize that there WAS abuse!

He can't interpret my words when I say that she was mentally ill. And he

certainly doesn't realize that he's emotionally disturbed even though he never

emancipated. He's never dated, bought a house, rented an apartment, worried

about bills, - no real life experiences because he never left home. And he

doesn't think that his life is unusual! He just sealed off those thoughts and

emotions - or so he thinks. He is angry about everything except what he should

be angry about. He directs is anger at safe things - awful remarks about

strangers and neighbors. Not to them, just about them. That's the extent of

our recent conversations - he just puts down everybody. As my therapist would

say - his anger is coming out sideways. He's never let himself be angry in a

good way, and use it to change his life.

>

> So where does that leave me and my relationship with him? I think it would be

a waste of breath trying to educate him about all of this. I've tried to get

him to go to therapy - that was a flop. I hate to think that the answer is for

me to walk away -- as I did from nada. But to hide my truth and feelings from

him would be to have a dishonest relationship. And he seems incapable of

absorbing any of this reality. Perhaps I need to realize that he could also be

mentally ill? What do you do about " unknowning " siblings????

>

[Guest guest]

Fiona,

Oh, how sad that your brother is like that, too. There is just so much

commonality in our stories. Everybody that knows my brother is wondering how in

the world that he will cope and live now that nada is gone. I'm so afraid that

he will be clingy with me. Am also afraid that one day he will blow up in anger

if/when he realizes that he's wasted his life doing and being exactly who she

wanted him to be. I don't know what form that anger will take, but I'm afraid

that some day venting about other people won't be enough for him anymore.

And as for it being scary for you to become closer to him because he IS her,

OMG! I always said that my brother and nada were one person, glued at the hip.

In fact, I started referring to either one of them by the same name -- mobro --

combining the words mother/brother (pronounced mo-bro, with long o's). Mobro

said this, or mobro said that -- and it really didn't matter who said what -

they were one: same opinions, same expressions, same, same same. That said, now

that " mo " is gone, and only " bro " is left -- I have no idea IF the " mo " part

will ever leave him. Will he ever be like a real person? He's been controlled

for 64 years! Can he ever escape and be whatever " himself " is? Does he even

know who he is/can be?

You couldn't have said it better -- " he's been marinating so long in bpd

behavior, he doesn't know he can have wellness and a real life. "

Very sad. I wish I could just hand him the Walking on Eggshells book, but I'm

not sure he will even see himself in there. For me, when I read the book, Randi

might as well have used nada's and my name. I couldn't believe how she nailed

the living-with-a-bpd-experience.

Take care. Keep in touch.

S.

> >

> > Thanks to all for your posts concerning " Got me from the grave " . Your

shared experiences, insights, and comments, as well as the community you all

provide are very, very helpful. And now to the next topic.

> >

> > My 64 yr old brother lived with nada his entire life! He was completely

controlled and manipulated by her. And has NO IDEA there is a problem! He shut

off his feelings and his life. He would never call me because she'd read him

the riot act for talking to me. He quit visiting me (I live in another state)

because " she couldn't be left alone " . I offered to pay for a caregiver many

times, but he said that wouldn't work and that I just didn't understand.

> >

> > Well, now she's dead, and it's like someone flipped a switch. He thinks

life goes on the same as always, everything's ok now that she's out of the

picture, and let's pick up where we left off 13 years ago (that last time he

visited me). EXCEPT life isn't the same. I've been through therapy, work on my

issues, realize she was mentally ill, and know that he hasn't gotten to first

base with any of this. He has no idea that he's been complicit in her abuse

(e.g., that he mailed the " nasty-grams " that she'd write to me, and he never

called me because she didn't want him to) - heck, he doesn't even realize that

there WAS abuse! He can't interpret my words when I say that she was mentally

ill. And he certainly doesn't realize that he's emotionally disturbed even

though he never emancipated. He's never dated, bought a house, rented an

apartment, worried about bills, - no real life experiences because he never left

home. And he doesn't think that his life is unusual! He just sealed off those

thoughts and emotions - or so he thinks. He is angry about everything except

what he should be angry about. He directs is anger at safe things - awful

remarks about strangers and neighbors. Not to them, just about them. That's

the extent of our recent conversations - he just puts down everybody. As my

therapist would say - his anger is coming out sideways. He's never let himself

be angry in a good way, and use it to change his life.

> >

> > So where does that leave me and my relationship with him? I think it would

be a waste of breath trying to educate him about all of this. I've tried to get

him to go to therapy - that was a flop. I hate to think that the answer is for

me to walk away -- as I did from nada. But to hide my truth and feelings from

him would be to have a dishonest relationship. And he seems incapable of

absorbing any of this reality. Perhaps I need to realize that he could also be

mentally ill? What do you do about " unknowning " siblings????

> >

>