sacrificing a family member

[Guest guest]

I am reading a text book about family therapy. It is amazing. There is a

section that has me spell bound, the quote as saying:

" I am suspicious of families in that I know that families will sacrifice

members in order to preserve the whole, or to shield certain members. "

Does anyone else feel like they were sacrificed to protect the nada?

I have always considered NC my choice. But this is the second time I have

stumbled across the therapist's view that families cast members out to

protect their way of life or their most dysfunctional member.

I wonder if my FOO turned up the heat on me, knowing at least subconsciously

that I would respond by leaving?

Maybe it really wasn't my choice. They were faced with the choice to either

change or lose me as a member. They chose to take the loss.

Or is it healthier for me to continue to look at it as though I just walked

away?

Either way, I know that my quest for mental health required me to keep going

forward. They chose to stay behind. Their loss.

[Guest guest]

That's fascinating--I think that's a big deal of why I was disowned. I

wasn't buying the family's party line anymore--and I was starting to get

sick of drinking the koolaid. I even married a Protestant *gasp!*

(sarcastic).

So, easier to cut me out to preserve the cultic identify of the family

aruond my fada, than to try to fold my opinions and thoughts into the family

fabric. I have a feeling I was replaced (how convenient of my bada to get

engaged around the same time!) by bada's wife. No proof, but I wouldn't be

surprised.

On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Girlscout Cowboy <

girlscout.cowboy@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

> I am reading a text book about family therapy. It is amazing. There is a

> section that has me spell bound, the quote as saying:

>

> " I am suspicious of families in that I know that families will sacrifice

> members in order to preserve the whole, or to shield certain members. "

>

> Does anyone else feel like they were sacrificed to protect the nada?

>

> I have always considered NC my choice. But this is the second time I have

> stumbled across the therapist's view that families cast members out to

> protect their way of life or their most dysfunctional member.

>

> I wonder if my FOO turned up the heat on me, knowing at least

> subconsciously

> that I would respond by leaving?

>

> Maybe it really wasn't my choice. They were faced with the choice to either

> change or lose me as a member. They chose to take the loss.

>

> Or is it healthier for me to continue to look at it as though I just walked

> away?

>

> Either way, I know that my quest for mental health required me to keep

> going

> forward. They chose to stay behind. Their loss.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, its really interesting to me to think about it that way. So much was

unsaid when I went NC. I didn't send a letter or have a freak out. I just

stopped participating. And they just allowed me to stop participating. My

dad asked me once what had happened and what he could do - I said he could

do nothing, that my mother needed to stop trying to speak to me. That if I

wanted to speak to her I knew how to reach her.

But, even though I didn't flat out call them on it, I know that if I said

the things to someone that my mother said to me, I would NOT expect them to

continue participating in my life. And I think by saying the things she

said, she pushed me out. And I think that by supporting her, continuing to

be married to her and rallying around her, the rest of my FOO made their

choice.

Spoken out loud or not, discussed or not, that is what happened and I

believe it was conscious and it was their decision and it is fitting with

their beliefs and I am the thing that did not fit. And here i am, living in

a whole other world, and there they are - sucking in other people to assume

my role and just continuing on.

Can you imagine being in your sixties, and having only 2 living children,

and one of them doesn't speak to you or participate in your life, and you do

NOTHING about it. You don't ask for honest feedback, you don't apologize,

you don't seek counseling or therapy, you don't take a serious look at your

self, your decisions or your relationships. You just continue doing what you

have always done.

I think that's bizarre. I think its the definition of insanity. Wow. It

really is them - not me.

On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Holly Lipschultz <

hollymichellebyers@...> wrote:

> That's fascinating--I think that's a big deal of why I was disowned. I

> wasn't buying the family's party line anymore--and I was starting to get

> sick of drinking the koolaid. I even married a Protestant *gasp!*

> (sarcastic).

>

> So, easier to cut me out to preserve the cultic identify of the family

> aruond my fada, than to try to fold my opinions and thoughts into the

> family

> fabric. I have a feeling I was replaced (how convenient of my bada to get

> engaged around the same time!) by bada's wife. No proof, but I wouldn't be

> surprised.

>

> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Girlscout Cowboy <

> girlscout.cowboy@...> wrote:

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > I am reading a text book about family therapy. It is amazing. There is a

> > section that has me spell bound, the quote as saying:

> >

> > " I am suspicious of families in that I know that families will sacrifice

> > members in order to preserve the whole, or to shield certain members. "

> >

> > Does anyone else feel like they were sacrificed to protect the nada?

> >

> > I have always considered NC my choice. But this is the second time I have

> > stumbled across the therapist's view that families cast members out to

> > protect their way of life or their most dysfunctional member.

> >

> > I wonder if my FOO turned up the heat on me, knowing at least

> > subconsciously

> > that I would respond by leaving?

> >

> > Maybe it really wasn't my choice. They were faced with the choice to

> either

> > change or lose me as a member. They chose to take the loss.

> >

> > Or is it healthier for me to continue to look at it as though I just

> walked

> > away?

> >

> > Either way, I know that my quest for mental health required me to keep

> > going

> > forward. They chose to stay behind. Their loss.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

That is very interesting. It could be the basis for the " scapegoat " dynamic in

dysfunctional families: designating one child (or more) as the all-bad,

worthless child, the cause of all the family's problems, who then serves as a

shield to deflect attention from the actual most dysfunctional member: a

personality-disordered parent or other sibling.

The scapegoated child, from what I've read, is often the one who ends up

escaping from the toxic, dysfunctional family system earlier in life because

they have the least to lose.

The scapegoat receives little if any benefit from being a member of their foo,

so, they have more to gain by leaving.

Although it hurts to be rejected, forced out, its actually good that the giant

monster finds you unpalatable and indigestable and spits you out.

So whether you left of your own free will or were forced out, the result is that

you are not being subjected to your toxic foo's psychological torture any longer

and that's a good thing. Either way its a victory for you, in my opinion.

-Annie

>

> I am reading a text book about family therapy. It is amazing. There is a

> section that has me spell bound, the quote as saying:

>

> " I am suspicious of families in that I know that families will sacrifice

> members in order to preserve the whole, or to shield certain members. "

>

> Does anyone else feel like they were sacrificed to protect the nada?

>

> I have always considered NC my choice. But this is the second time I have

> stumbled across the therapist's view that families cast members out to

> protect their way of life or their most dysfunctional member.

>

> I wonder if my FOO turned up the heat on me, knowing at least subconsciously

> that I would respond by leaving?

>

> Maybe it really wasn't my choice. They were faced with the choice to either

> change or lose me as a member. They chose to take the loss.

>

> Or is it healthier for me to continue to look at it as though I just walked

> away?

>

> Either way, I know that my quest for mental health required me to keep going

> forward. They chose to stay behind. Their loss.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Annie.

The family roles were a little unclear in my FOO. Yes, I was the scapegoat

for nada. But I was also a high achiever and a caregiver. It just depended.

But I think scapegoat was my main role. I escaped from the giant's nest. Yay

On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 12:11 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

> **

>

>

> That is very interesting. It could be the basis for the " scapegoat " dynamic

> in dysfunctional families: designating one child (or more) as the all-bad,

> worthless child, the cause of all the family's problems, who then serves as

> a shield to deflect attention from the actual most dysfunctional member: a

> personality-disordered parent or other sibling.

>

> The scapegoated child, from what I've read, is often the one who ends up

> escaping from the toxic, dysfunctional family system earlier in life because

> they have the least to lose.

> The scapegoat receives little if any benefit from being a member of their

> foo, so, they have more to gain by leaving.

>

> Although it hurts to be rejected, forced out, its actually good that the

> giant monster finds you unpalatable and indigestable and spits you out.

>

> So whether you left of your own free will or were forced out, the result is

> that you are not being subjected to your toxic foo's psychological torture

> any longer and that's a good thing. Either way its a victory for you, in my

> opinion.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > I am reading a text book about family therapy. It is amazing. There is a

> > section that has me spell bound, the quote as saying:

> >

> > " I am suspicious of families in that I know that families will sacrifice

> > members in order to preserve the whole, or to shield certain members. "

> >

> > Does anyone else feel like they were sacrificed to protect the nada?

> >

> > I have always considered NC my choice. But this is the second time I have

> > stumbled across the therapist's view that families cast members out to

> > protect their way of life or their most dysfunctional member.

> >

> > I wonder if my FOO turned up the heat on me, knowing at least

> subconsciously

> > that I would respond by leaving?

> >

> > Maybe it really wasn't my choice. They were faced with the choice to

> either

> > change or lose me as a member. They chose to take the loss.

> >

> > Or is it healthier for me to continue to look at it as though I just

> walked

> > away?

> >

> > Either way, I know that my quest for mental health required me to keep

> going

> > forward. They chose to stay behind. Their loss.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Exactly. I just had another run-in with my mother...and confronted our age-old

question on why she got rid of me, disowned me, told everyone who would listen

that i was dead to her...just to get rid of my loving boyfriend of 7 years.

Very interesting answer. She told me that he was a threat to her family.

So, I said...if he was the threat, then getting rid of me was the solution?

She said yes.

I will never understand this, even though I understand what the theory is.

She's my mother...how can this be?

I was sacrificed in my family...and to this day (30 years later) it still

affects me on a deep, buried level. It really shaped how I feel about myself...

Amy

barrycove@...

[Guest guest]

Somehow, your mother's skewed way of thinking is reminding me of that story

about King Solomon, who had to judge between two women who were both claiming

that an infant was her own child. King Solomon could not determine who was the

child's real mother, so the solution he offered was to cut the child into two

halves and give each woman one half of the baby. One of the women said, " Fine,

that sounds fair to me. " but the other woman was horrified and said " No!

Please, I'll withdraw my claim and let her have him, please, don't hurt him, let

him live! " So King Solomon decided that the woman who was willing to selflessly

give up her claim in order to save the child's life to be his true mother.

Your mother is the one who said, " Fine, kill the child so I can have at least a

half; that sounds fair. "

Your mother is mentally ill, that is why your mother would rather " kill " you

(reject you entirely, banish you from her life) than share your love with

someone else. You are merely a possession to her; literally a piece of meat she

believes she owns, like the mother in the Solomon story who would rather have

half of a dead baby than nothing, and so what if the child died? She got her

half. Your mother is probably very narcissistic; perhaps she even has npd (but

I'm no psychologist, I'm just speculating.)

What your mother did to you, that isn't love. Its nowhere near what love is.

I'm so sorry. It is devastatingly hard to accept that our own mother is

incapable of feeling real love for us.

-Annie

>

> Exactly. I just had another run-in with my mother...and confronted our age-old

question on why she got rid of me, disowned me, told everyone who would listen

that i was dead to her...just to get rid of my loving boyfriend of 7 years.

>

>

> Very interesting answer. She told me that he was a threat to her family.

>

>

> So, I said...if he was the threat, then getting rid of me was the solution?

> She said yes.

>

>

> I will never understand this, even though I understand what the theory is.

> She's my mother...how can this be?

>

>

> I was sacrificed in my family...and to this day (30 years later) it still

affects me on a deep, buried level. It really shaped how I feel about myself...

>

>

> Amy

>

>

> barrycove@...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, that hug was from me!

Amy

barrycove@...

[Guest guest]

(((((((((((((((( Annie ))))))))))))))))))))))

barrycove@...

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the hug, Amy!

-Annie

>

> Annie, that hug was from me!

> Amy

[Guest guest]

Here's what I'm confused about:

I read in Understanding the Borderline mother that the children who are split as

" all-bad " often end up developing BPD.

In my family, this is clearly not true. The scapegoat of my family is the most

compassionate one amongst us, and his love for animals and deep-seated integrity

is truly astounding.

However, in Nada's family, the scapegoat sisters went to Hermit and Waif

respectively, with my Nada as the witch lording over them

I feel like there's something to the development of the scapegoat and BPD

relationship that I'm missing.

How is that some all-bad kids escape and others develop BPD? I know it's

something that isn't really clear-cut between nature and nurture but I'd be

curious what you all think of it, having been subjected to abuse and not

developing the disorder?

One of the theories I've heard is that kids can escape if they're shown

unconditional love elsewhere, such as a grandma, teacher, family member or the

other parent. I feel like my ability to love stems from the fact that I did have

a Dad who would do his best to rescue me as a child, nurtured my ability to

think for myself and is supportive; that I could take solace in the love of my

grandmother and that I could base my self-worth on the praise I received from

teachers and mentors at school.

Thoughts on this?

> >

> > I am reading a text book about family therapy. It is amazing. There is a

> > section that has me spell bound, the quote as saying:

> >

> > " I am suspicious of families in that I know that families will sacrifice

> > members in order to preserve the whole, or to shield certain members. "

> >

> > Does anyone else feel like they were sacrificed to protect the nada?

> >

> > I have always considered NC my choice. But this is the second time I have

> > stumbled across the therapist's view that families cast members out to

> > protect their way of life or their most dysfunctional member.

> >

> > I wonder if my FOO turned up the heat on me, knowing at least subconsciously

> > that I would respond by leaving?

> >

> > Maybe it really wasn't my choice. They were faced with the choice to either

> > change or lose me as a member. They chose to take the loss.

> >

> > Or is it healthier for me to continue to look at it as though I just walked

> > away?

> >

> > Either way, I know that my quest for mental health required me to keep going

> > forward. They chose to stay behind. Their loss.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Two thoughts, the scapegoat who doesn't develop BPD has either or both of the

following:

- good genetics creating a very strong mental health and temperament so that the

damaging conditions do less actual damage

- unconditional love from somewhere like you describe with your father or

another relative during critical developmental stages.

okay another thought popped up:

- that the damaging conditions in the family didn't start until after the

child's brain and psyche had already healthily developed. Some BPD mothers

might do better with infants than with older children and act crazier the closer

to adulthood the child gets. BUT if they don't turn the crazy full on till

after age five a lot of crucial brain development has already happened.

>

> Here's what I'm confused about:

>

> I read in Understanding the Borderline mother that the children who are split

as " all-bad " often end up developing BPD.

> In my family, this is clearly not true. The scapegoat of my family is the most

compassionate one amongst us, and his love for animals and deep-seated integrity

is truly astounding.

> However, in Nada's family, the scapegoat sisters went to Hermit and Waif

respectively, with my Nada as the witch lording over them

>

> I feel like there's something to the development of the scapegoat and BPD

relationship that I'm missing.

> How is that some all-bad kids escape and others develop BPD? I know it's

something that isn't really clear-cut between nature and nurture but I'd be

curious what you all think of it, having been subjected to abuse and not

developing the disorder?

>

> One of the theories I've heard is that kids can escape if they're shown

unconditional love elsewhere, such as a grandma, teacher, family member or the

other parent. I feel like my ability to love stems from the fact that I did have

a Dad who would do his best to rescue me as a child, nurtured my ability to

think for myself and is supportive; that I could take solace in the love of my

grandmother and that I could base my self-worth on the praise I received from

teachers and mentors at school.

>

> Thoughts on this?

>

[Guest guest]

I've read in many places - esp family therapy literature - that the

scapegoat is usually the most emotionally honest family member and yeah,

sometimes we do escape and end up having the most congruent and loving lives

of the members of the family. At least, I did

On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 4:06 PM, eliza92@... <

eliza92@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

> Two thoughts, the scapegoat who doesn't develop BPD has either or both of

> the following:

>

> - good genetics creating a very strong mental health and temperament so

> that the damaging conditions do less actual damage

> - unconditional love from somewhere like you describe with your father or

> another relative during critical developmental stages.

>

> okay another thought popped up:

> - that the damaging conditions in the family didn't start until after the

> child's brain and psyche had already healthily developed. Some BPD mothers

> might do better with infants than with older children and act crazier the

> closer to adulthood the child gets. BUT if they don't turn the crazy full on

> till after age five a lot of crucial brain development has already happened.

>

>

>

> >

> > Here's what I'm confused about:

> >

> > I read in Understanding the Borderline mother that the children who are

> split as " all-bad " often end up developing BPD.

> > In my family, this is clearly not true. The scapegoat of my family is the

> most compassionate one amongst us, and his love for animals and deep-seated

> integrity is truly astounding.

> > However, in Nada's family, the scapegoat sisters went to Hermit and Waif

> respectively, with my Nada as the witch lording over them

> >

> > I feel like there's something to the development of the scapegoat and BPD

> relationship that I'm missing.

> > How is that some all-bad kids escape and others develop BPD? I know it's

> something that isn't really clear-cut between nature and nurture but I'd be

> curious what you all think of it, having been subjected to abuse and not

> developing the disorder?

> >

> > One of the theories I've heard is that kids can escape if they're shown

> unconditional love elsewhere, such as a grandma, teacher, family member or

> the other parent. I feel like my ability to love stems from the fact that I

> did have a Dad who would do his best to rescue me as a child, nurtured my

> ability to think for myself and is supportive; that I could take solace in

> the love of my grandmother and that I could base my self-worth on the praise

> I received from teachers and mentors at school.

> >

> > Thoughts on this?

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Its been so long since I've read UTBM that I can't answer to that question; I'd

have to borrow or buy a new copy. But I'm willing to bet that its the more

enmeshed or " golden " child who is more likely to wind up with bpd (or some other

mental illness) although from various studies and articles I've read it isn't

just environment that creates personality disorder, its a combo of both inherent

temperament factors in combination with an environment perceived as

invalidating.

My Sister is, in my opinion, the more mentally healthy of the two of us; she's

had a more well-rounded life than I have, and she was the scapegoated, all-bad

child much more often than I was. I was mostly golden and enmeshed, she was

mostly scapegoated and left our parent's home earlier in her life than I did.

My Sister was able to fall in love (although it did not turn out to be a

long-term relationship), she had a child and raised her boy successfully, she's

been able to have two entirely separate careers that she was and is well thought

of and successful in, able to have many friends and be quite sociable, and

maintain at least a superficial relationship with our nada. I think my Sister

is a champ; she's my hero!

But I suppose if the designated all-bad child is too severely abused, shamed,

humiliated, mistreated, neglected, rejected, persecuted, etc., that will break

the little scapegoat's mind and will and heart, and is equally as toxic as being

absorbed and assimilated by the Borg-like, dysfunctional parents. Its all

bad, frankly.

But from my own personal experience and point of view, I think the scapegoated

child has a better chance of escape. I'm now interested in re-reading UTBM, RE

that and other issues.

-Annie

> > >

> > > I am reading a text book about family therapy. It is amazing. There is a

> > > section that has me spell bound, the quote as saying:

> > >

> > > " I am suspicious of families in that I know that families will sacrifice

> > > members in order to preserve the whole, or to shield certain members. "

> > >

> > > Does anyone else feel like they were sacrificed to protect the nada?

> > >

> > > I have always considered NC my choice. But this is the second time I have

> > > stumbled across the therapist's view that families cast members out to

> > > protect their way of life or their most dysfunctional member.

> > >

> > > I wonder if my FOO turned up the heat on me, knowing at least

subconsciously

> > > that I would respond by leaving?

> > >

> > > Maybe it really wasn't my choice. They were faced with the choice to

either

> > > change or lose me as a member. They chose to take the loss.

> > >

> > > Or is it healthier for me to continue to look at it as though I just

walked

> > > away?

> > >

> > > Either way, I know that my quest for mental health required me to keep

going

> > > forward. They chose to stay behind. Their loss.

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I think those are important factors: when did the abuse start, and did the child

have access to other, sane adults who were able to provide love, stability,

attention and validation? If the child wasn't wanted or labeled " all-bad " at

birth, and mistreated or neglected from the get-go, that's the worst-case

scenario.

-Annie

> >

> > Here's what I'm confused about:

> >

> > I read in Understanding the Borderline mother that the children who are

split as " all-bad " often end up developing BPD.

> > In my family, this is clearly not true. The scapegoat of my family is the

most compassionate one amongst us, and his love for animals and deep-seated

integrity is truly astounding.

> > However, in Nada's family, the scapegoat sisters went to Hermit and Waif

respectively, with my Nada as the witch lording over them

> >

> > I feel like there's something to the development of the scapegoat and BPD

relationship that I'm missing.

> > How is that some all-bad kids escape and others develop BPD? I know it's

something that isn't really clear-cut between nature and nurture but I'd be

curious what you all think of it, having been subjected to abuse and not

developing the disorder?

> >

> > One of the theories I've heard is that kids can escape if they're shown

unconditional love elsewhere, such as a grandma, teacher, family member or the

other parent. I feel like my ability to love stems from the fact that I did have

a Dad who would do his best to rescue me as a child, nurtured my ability to

think for myself and is supportive; that I could take solace in the love of my

grandmother and that I could base my self-worth on the praise I received from

teachers and mentors at school.

> >

> > Thoughts on this?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, have you read The Family Crucible? I believe it talks about

scapegoats and emotional honesty as well.

I was my nada's scapegoat - but my dad, plus his bromance cowboy pardner and

their friends took me away from nada A LOT, at least 40% of the time, and

provided me with stimulating adult company, mentoring and discipline. So, I

think maybe that was the kick in the ass that pushed me out the door? My T

thinks so. She actually thinks my dad pushed me away and out of the house

and out into the world because he wanted me to have a chance at real life

and not get trapped like he did. I like to think of it that way - that he

sacrificed his own needs to save me when he realized he wasn't brave enough

to leave himself. In fact, thinking back, my dad reinforced me 100% of the

time for tough behavior, and never reinforced whining or weak behavior. I

think he groomed me for the future that is now laying before me.

Probably it was all unconscious on his part, or maybe its a story my T made

up to allow me to take my dad's love with me as I move forward in life, but

I like the story so I think I'll add it to my personal mythology.

On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 4:40 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

> **

>

>

> Its been so long since I've read UTBM that I can't answer to that question;

> I'd have to borrow or buy a new copy. But I'm willing to bet that its the

> more enmeshed or " golden " child who is more likely to wind up with bpd (or

> some other mental illness) although from various studies and articles I've

> read it isn't just environment that creates personality disorder, its a

> combo of both inherent temperament factors in combination with an

> environment perceived as invalidating.

>

> My Sister is, in my opinion, the more mentally healthy of the two of us;

> she's had a more well-rounded life than I have, and she was the scapegoated,

> all-bad child much more often than I was. I was mostly golden and enmeshed,

> she was mostly scapegoated and left our parent's home earlier in her life

> than I did. My Sister was able to fall in love (although it did not turn out

> to be a long-term relationship), she had a child and raised her boy

> successfully, she's been able to have two entirely separate careers that she

> was and is well thought of and successful in, able to have many friends and

> be quite sociable, and maintain at least a superficial relationship with our

> nada. I think my Sister is a champ; she's my hero!

>

> But I suppose if the designated all-bad child is too severely abused,

> shamed, humiliated, mistreated, neglected, rejected, persecuted, etc., that

> will break the little scapegoat's mind and will and heart, and is equally as

> toxic as being absorbed and assimilated by the Borg-like, dysfunctional

> parents. Its all bad, frankly.

>

> But from my own personal experience and point of view, I think the

> scapegoated child has a better chance of escape. I'm now interested in

> re-reading UTBM, RE that and other issues.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > I am reading a text book about family therapy. It is amazing. There

> is a

> > > > section that has me spell bound, the quote as saying:

> > > >

> > > > " I am suspicious of families in that I know that families will

> sacrifice

> > > > members in order to preserve the whole, or to shield certain

> members. "

> > > >

> > > > Does anyone else feel like they were sacrificed to protect the nada?

> > > >

> > > > I have always considered NC my choice. But this is the second time I

> have

> > > > stumbled across the therapist's view that families cast members out

> to

> > > > protect their way of life or their most dysfunctional member.

> > > >

> > > > I wonder if my FOO turned up the heat on me, knowing at least

> subconsciously

> > > > that I would respond by leaving?

> > > >

> > > > Maybe it really wasn't my choice. They were faced with the choice to

> either

> > > > change or lose me as a member. They chose to take the loss.

> > > >

> > > > Or is it healthier for me to continue to look at it as though I just

> walked

> > > > away?

> > > >

> > > > Either way, I know that my quest for mental health required me to

> keep going

> > > > forward. They chose to stay behind. Their loss.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi GS,

No, I haven't read that book; there are so many that have been recommended here

over the years and sound really good, and are on my reading list. I'll have to

add that one too.

I like your " family mythology " , it sounds really very plausible to me. I think

your dad probably did perceive that your mother was toxic and destructive to you

and he was helping you to not spend so much time with her; that was

compassionate and loving of him to do that. I'm glad you had that positive

influence in your formative years.

-Annie

> > > > >

> > > > > I am reading a text book about family therapy. It is amazing. There

> > is a

> > > > > section that has me spell bound, the quote as saying:

> > > > >

> > > > > " I am suspicious of families in that I know that families will

> > sacrifice

> > > > > members in order to preserve the whole, or to shield certain

> > members. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Does anyone else feel like they were sacrificed to protect the nada?

> > > > >

> > > > > I have always considered NC my choice. But this is the second time I

> > have

> > > > > stumbled across the therapist's view that families cast members out

> > to

> > > > > protect their way of life or their most dysfunctional member.

> > > > >

> > > > > I wonder if my FOO turned up the heat on me, knowing at least

> > subconsciously

> > > > > that I would respond by leaving?

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe it really wasn't my choice. They were faced with the choice to

> > either

> > > > > change or lose me as a member. They chose to take the loss.

> > > > >

> > > > > Or is it healthier for me to continue to look at it as though I just

> > walked

> > > > > away?

> > > > >

> > > > > Either way, I know that my quest for mental health required me to

> > keep going

> > > > > forward. They chose to stay behind. Their loss.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Oh thanks Annie. HUGS. I've got wet eyes. I like to think I can keep some of

my dad's love and influence and western culture in my life even if I can't

have him.

On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 4:58 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

> **

>

>

> Hi GS,

> No, I haven't read that book; there are so many that have been recommended

> here over the years and sound really good, and are on my reading list. I'll

> have to add that one too.

>

> I like your " family mythology " , it sounds really very plausible to me. I

> think your dad probably did perceive that your mother was toxic and

> destructive to you and he was helping you to not spend so much time with

> her; that was compassionate and loving of him to do that. I'm glad you had

> that positive influence in your formative years.

>

>

> -Annie

>

>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I am reading a text book about family therapy. It is amazing.

> There

> > > is a

> > > > > > section that has me spell bound, the quote as saying:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " I am suspicious of families in that I know that families will

> > > sacrifice

> > > > > > members in order to preserve the whole, or to shield certain

> > > members. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Does anyone else feel like they were sacrificed to protect the

> nada?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have always considered NC my choice. But this is the second

> time I

> > > have

> > > > > > stumbled across the therapist's view that families cast members

> out

> > > to

> > > > > > protect their way of life or their most dysfunctional member.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I wonder if my FOO turned up the heat on me, knowing at least

> > > subconsciously

> > > > > > that I would respond by leaving?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Maybe it really wasn't my choice. They were faced with the choice

> to

> > > either

> > > > > > change or lose me as a member. They chose to take the loss.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or is it healthier for me to continue to look at it as though I

> just

> > > walked

> > > > > > away?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Either way, I know that my quest for mental health required me to

> > > keep going

> > > > > > forward. They chose to stay behind. Their loss.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

My sister (half-sib) was split all bad by our mother. By age 7 she had little to

no contact with her dad's family. She is not BPD, but actually fits the pattern

of caretaker/nurturer, but will often run in another direction if the situation

is too upsetting. She has lots of waif traits, and has been treated like a

dormat by her DH, who I believe is likely a Histionic PD.

I do not know of anyone in her early life who may have given her enough

unconditional love to make up for nada's hatred, unless nada herself somehow

loved her enough before deciding to hate her and the father. I don't believe her

father's side was much involved before the divorce, and not at all afterward.

It is quite a mystery, isn't it? Just exactly what circumstances need to be in

place to create a BPD.

>

> Here's what I'm confused about:

>

> I read in Understanding the Borderline mother that the children who are split

as " all-bad " often end up developing BPD.

> In my family, this is clearly not true. The scapegoat of my family is the most

compassionate one amongst us, and his love for animals and deep-seated integrity

is truly astounding.

> However, in Nada's family, the scapegoat sisters went to Hermit and Waif

respectively, with my Nada as the witch lording over them

>

> I feel like there's something to the development of the scapegoat and BPD

relationship that I'm missing.

> How is that some all-bad kids escape and others develop BPD? I know it's

something that isn't really clear-cut between nature and nurture but I'd be

curious what you all think of it, having been subjected to abuse and not

developing the disorder?

>

> One of the theories I've heard is that kids can escape if they're shown

unconditional love elsewhere, such as a grandma, teacher, family member or the

other parent. I feel like my ability to love stems from the fact that I did have

a Dad who would do his best to rescue me as a child, nurtured my ability to

think for myself and is supportive; that I could take solace in the love of my

grandmother and that I could base my self-worth on the praise I received from

teachers and mentors at school.

>

> Thoughts on this?

>

[Guest guest]

Ok, I'm going to say something very controversial about the circumstances to

create a BPD - because like you I have seen people come out of bad

environments who reached out for help and became fantastic people. I think

its, at least in part, a choice. I can remember moments in my nada's life

when change would have embraced her. Like when I was about 5 and she told me

that I needed to be evaluated for learning disabilities (and probably

psychiatric issues) and she made it sound like my fault, very shameful and

then asked me if I wanted to do it (of course I didnt). She also would have

had ample chances to get help after my brother died.

I remember the look on her face a few times. I could see the little hamsters

running on their wheel as she decided how to react to a challenge or issue.

I swear to God, every single time, I could see her evaluating her options. I

could see her looking at her behavior and saying to herself - should I act

like a mother or a 2 year old - and every single time she chose the 2 year

old.

I believe she has potential - maybe not to totally heal, maybe not to be

normal - but to make better, more positive, more constructive choices and be

somewhat better and have a better functioning family.

But to choose that once would be like admitting it wasn't a gift from God to

be BPD, or a trait that made her special and talented and different.

And she never did. Not once. Not when the stakes were immense. I believe she

would have been glad and milked it if she had driven me to suicide.

Am I now going to be put on moderation?

> **

>

>

> My sister (half-sib) was split all bad by our mother. By age 7 she had

> little to no contact with her dad's family. She is not BPD, but actually

> fits the pattern of caretaker/nurturer, but will often run in another

> direction if the situation is too upsetting. She has lots of waif traits,

> and has been treated like a dormat by her DH, who I believe is likely a

> Histionic PD.

>

> I do not know of anyone in her early life who may have given her enough

> unconditional love to make up for nada's hatred, unless nada herself somehow

> loved her enough before deciding to hate her and the father. I don't believe

> her father's side was much involved before the divorce, and not at all

> afterward.

>

> It is quite a mystery, isn't it? Just exactly what circumstances need to be

> in place to create a BPD.

>

>

> >

> > Here's what I'm confused about:

> >

> > I read in Understanding the Borderline mother that the children who are

> split as " all-bad " often end up developing BPD.

> > In my family, this is clearly not true. The scapegoat of my family is the

> most compassionate one amongst us, and his love for animals and deep-seated

> integrity is truly astounding.

> > However, in Nada's family, the scapegoat sisters went to Hermit and Waif

> respectively, with my Nada as the witch lording over them

> >

> > I feel like there's something to the development of the scapegoat and BPD

> relationship that I'm missing.

> > How is that some all-bad kids escape and others develop BPD? I know it's

> something that isn't really clear-cut between nature and nurture but I'd be

> curious what you all think of it, having been subjected to abuse and not

> developing the disorder?

> >

> > One of the theories I've heard is that kids can escape if they're shown

> unconditional love elsewhere, such as a grandma, teacher, family member or

> the other parent. I feel like my ability to love stems from the fact that I

> did have a Dad who would do his best to rescue me as a child, nurtured my

> ability to think for myself and is supportive; that I could take solace in

> the love of my grandmother and that I could base my self-worth on the praise

> I received from teachers and mentors at school.

> >

> > Thoughts on this?

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

GS - I think I understand what you're saying. I KNOW my mother knows the

difference between right and wrong, but time and again she CHOOSES to con,

connive, and outright lie to get what she thinks she's entitled to. It's like

her moral rudder is warped somehow - she knows what the map says, and she knows

how the ship is supposed to work, but she always seems to veer off course. Her

stupid, self-destructive, selfish choices make it very hard for me to be

sympathetic to her, even though I now believe that the PD - and her childhood

trauma and neglect - are part of the " warp " in her rudder.

> > >

> > > Here's what I'm confused about:

> > >

> > > I read in Understanding the Borderline mother that the children who are

> > split as " all-bad " often end up developing BPD.

> > > In my family, this is clearly not true. The scapegoat of my family is the

> > most compassionate one amongst us, and his love for animals and deep-seated

> > integrity is truly astounding.

> > > However, in Nada's family, the scapegoat sisters went to Hermit and Waif

> > respectively, with my Nada as the witch lording over them

> > >

> > > I feel like there's something to the development of the scapegoat and BPD

> > relationship that I'm missing.

> > > How is that some all-bad kids escape and others develop BPD? I know it's

> > something that isn't really clear-cut between nature and nurture but I'd be

> > curious what you all think of it, having been subjected to abuse and not

> > developing the disorder?

> > >

> > > One of the theories I've heard is that kids can escape if they're shown

> > unconditional love elsewhere, such as a grandma, teacher, family member or

> > the other parent. I feel like my ability to love stems from the fact that I

> > did have a Dad who would do his best to rescue me as a child, nurtured my

> > ability to think for myself and is supportive; that I could take solace in

> > the love of my grandmother and that I could base my self-worth on the praise

> > I received from teachers and mentors at school.

> > >

> > > Thoughts on this?

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

YES , exactly and my nada believed the rules did not apply to her. They

applied to others but not to her. She told me so many times that i just

didn't understand how SPECIAL she was. That her body didn't work like other

bodies.

Bullshit, desperate attempt to avoid the rules of human life.

On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 7:57 AM, shirleyspawn wrote:

> **

>

>

> GS - I think I understand what you're saying. I KNOW my mother knows the

> difference between right and wrong, but time and again she CHOOSES to con,

> connive, and outright lie to get what she thinks she's entitled to. It's

> like her moral rudder is warped somehow - she knows what the map says, and

> she knows how the ship is supposed to work, but she always seems to veer off

> course. Her stupid, self-destructive, selfish choices make it very hard for

> me to be sympathetic to her, even though I now believe that the PD - and her

> childhood trauma and neglect - are part of the " warp " in her rudder.

>

>

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > Here's what I'm confused about:

> > > >

> > > > I read in Understanding the Borderline mother that the children who

> are

> > > split as " all-bad " often end up developing BPD.

> > > > In my family, this is clearly not true. The scapegoat of my family is

> the

> > > most compassionate one amongst us, and his love for animals and

> deep-seated

> > > integrity is truly astounding.

> > > > However, in Nada's family, the scapegoat sisters went to Hermit and

> Waif

> > > respectively, with my Nada as the witch lording over them

> > > >

> > > > I feel like there's something to the development of the scapegoat and

> BPD

> > > relationship that I'm missing.

> > > > How is that some all-bad kids escape and others develop BPD? I know

> it's

> > > something that isn't really clear-cut between nature and nurture but

> I'd be

> > > curious what you all think of it, having been subjected to abuse and

> not

> > > developing the disorder?

> > > >

> > > > One of the theories I've heard is that kids can escape if they're

> shown

> > > unconditional love elsewhere, such as a grandma, teacher, family member

> or

> > > the other parent. I feel like my ability to love stems from the fact

> that I

> > > did have a Dad who would do his best to rescue me as a child, nurtured

> my

> > > ability to think for myself and is supportive; that I could take solace

> in

> > > the love of my grandmother and that I could base my self-worth on the

> praise

> > > I received from teachers and mentors at school.

> > > >

> > > > Thoughts on this?

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

That particular belief/trait/behavior: believing that you are somehow special

(in a superior way) and that rules are for " ordinary people " and do not apply to

you... that's more in the realm of narcissistic pd and antisocial pd.

-Annie

> > > > >

> > > > > Here's what I'm confused about:

> > > > >

> > > > > I read in Understanding the Borderline mother that the children who

> > are

> > > > split as " all-bad " often end up developing BPD.

> > > > > In my family, this is clearly not true. The scapegoat of my family is

> > the

> > > > most compassionate one amongst us, and his love for animals and

> > deep-seated

> > > > integrity is truly astounding.

> > > > > However, in Nada's family, the scapegoat sisters went to Hermit and

> > Waif

> > > > respectively, with my Nada as the witch lording over them

> > > > >

> > > > > I feel like there's something to the development of the scapegoat and

> > BPD

> > > > relationship that I'm missing.

> > > > > How is that some all-bad kids escape and others develop BPD? I know

> > it's

> > > > something that isn't really clear-cut between nature and nurture but

> > I'd be

> > > > curious what you all think of it, having been subjected to abuse and

> > not

> > > > developing the disorder?

> > > > >

> > > > > One of the theories I've heard is that kids can escape if they're

> > shown

> > > > unconditional love elsewhere, such as a grandma, teacher, family member

> > or

> > > > the other parent. I feel like my ability to love stems from the fact

> > that I

> > > > did have a Dad who would do his best to rescue me as a child, nurtured

> > my

> > > > ability to think for myself and is supportive; that I could take solace

> > in

> > > > the love of my grandmother and that I could base my self-worth on the

> > praise

> > > > I received from teachers and mentors at school.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thoughts on this?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I do agree with this. As the ones not willing to put up with behavior that

undermines us, we become the outcast, almost as if we are the ones with problem.

I found that I've had to removed myself for my own good, but also in a weird way

still protecting my nada. I feel like if the rest of my family wants to be

there for her, then I shouldn't do anything to destroy that. I've protected my

grandmother and my aunt from some of the more devastating things my nada has

said or done to me.

>

> I am reading a text book about family therapy. It is amazing. There is a

> section that has me spell bound, the quote as saying:

>

> " I am suspicious of families in that I know that families will sacrifice

> members in order to preserve the whole, or to shield certain members. "

>

> Does anyone else feel like they were sacrificed to protect the nada?

>

> I have always considered NC my choice. But this is the second time I have

> stumbled across the therapist's view that families cast members out to

> protect their way of life or their most dysfunctional member.

>

> I wonder if my FOO turned up the heat on me, knowing at least subconsciously

> that I would respond by leaving?

>

> Maybe it really wasn't my choice. They were faced with the choice to either

> change or lose me as a member. They chose to take the loss.

>

> Or is it healthier for me to continue to look at it as though I just walked

> away?

>

> Either way, I know that my quest for mental health required me to keep going

> forward. They chose to stay behind. Their loss.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Antisocial plus narcissistic plus borderline plus manic and depressive

episodes - there you have it ladies and gentlemen, that's my " mamma " !

> **

>

>

> I do agree with this. As the ones not willing to put up with behavior that

> undermines us, we become the outcast, almost as if we are the ones with

> problem. I found that I've had to removed myself for my own good, but also

> in a weird way still protecting my nada. I feel like if the rest of my

> family wants to be there for her, then I shouldn't do anything to destroy

> that. I've protected my grandmother and my aunt from some of the more

> devastating things my nada has said or done to me.

>

>

> >

> > I am reading a text book about family therapy. It is amazing. There is a

> > section that has me spell bound, the quote as saying:

> >

> > " I am suspicious of families in that I know that families will sacrifice

> > members in order to preserve the whole, or to shield certain members. "

> >

> > Does anyone else feel like they were sacrificed to protect the nada?

> >

> > I have always considered NC my choice. But this is the second time I have

> > stumbled across the therapist's view that families cast members out to

> > protect their way of life or their most dysfunctional member.

> >

> > I wonder if my FOO turned up the heat on me, knowing at least

> subconsciously

> > that I would respond by leaving?

> >

> > Maybe it really wasn't my choice. They were faced with the choice to

> either

> > change or lose me as a member. They chose to take the loss.

> >

> > Or is it healthier for me to continue to look at it as though I just

> walked

> > away?

> >

> > Either way, I know that my quest for mental health required me to keep

> going

> > forward. They chose to stay behind. Their loss.

> >

> >

> >