Re: ? on school sponsored after school activities

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/2006 3:47:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

kjbeanne@... writes:

That's too

much music to photocopy and there are copyright issues. " and i could

tell that was the end of the discussion as far as she was concerned.

Should i push this? should i ask to have the fm available for choir

practice in the morning? (doubt it would ever get used)...

Lydia is mod/severe in both ears. And i KNOW she isn't hearing the

notes cause she sings at home with her brother and they sing totally

different tunes... and not just harmony either lol

Yes, push, but push politely. " Oh, I didn't realize there was a copyright

issue. Could you tell me what arrangement you are using so that I can buy the

same one? " OR " Which publisher is it so that I can order/purchase the music

myself? " " Keeping her close is a great idea, but she needs a bit more than

that. " " We always get our own copy of the music for the church choir as well

because she needs to work on it at home to feel secure enough to be able to

sing out. " (whether you belong to the church choir or not, I'd guild that lily

-- grin)

Or, you can simply go to the principal and say that you've asked and been

rebuffed, but that you know that Lydia needs to be able to practice at home

where it is a quiet listening environment. Will she/he please get you a copy of

the music so that you can pre-teach your daughter at home. You are not asking

for the school to provide it to all the kids in class but they do need to

provide it as an accommodation for your child's specific needs.

Our son's music teacher was more than accommodating, making a copy for Ian

and sending it home to us through the teacher. She didn't give it to the

child, so's not to single him out. Ian learned his music at home, voice as well

as

the recorder, where he could hear me play it to sing along, or hear himself

laying it without the cacophony of 25 recorders.

You shouldn't have to call an IEP meeting to get this accommodation, but

this is now something to add to your list of things to be added to it when they

have the next official one. It is a form of pre-teaching, and if that is

already in your IEP, then this is a practical application of that teaching

strategy and you can inform the principal that it IS already covered in the IEP

and

they need to follow it.

And if they refuse you after all this and you feel it is that important

(which I would, because Ian does need to learn music outside of a loud

classroom)

then you can call for an IEP meeting to have it added to the plan.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/2006 3:47:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

kjbeanne@... writes:

That's too

much music to photocopy and there are copyright issues. " and i could

tell that was the end of the discussion as far as she was concerned.

Should i push this? should i ask to have the fm available for choir

practice in the morning? (doubt it would ever get used)...

Lydia is mod/severe in both ears. And i KNOW she isn't hearing the

notes cause she sings at home with her brother and they sing totally

different tunes... and not just harmony either lol

Yes, push, but push politely. " Oh, I didn't realize there was a copyright

issue. Could you tell me what arrangement you are using so that I can buy the

same one? " OR " Which publisher is it so that I can order/purchase the music

myself? " " Keeping her close is a great idea, but she needs a bit more than

that. " " We always get our own copy of the music for the church choir as well

because she needs to work on it at home to feel secure enough to be able to

sing out. " (whether you belong to the church choir or not, I'd guild that lily

-- grin)

Or, you can simply go to the principal and say that you've asked and been

rebuffed, but that you know that Lydia needs to be able to practice at home

where it is a quiet listening environment. Will she/he please get you a copy of

the music so that you can pre-teach your daughter at home. You are not asking

for the school to provide it to all the kids in class but they do need to

provide it as an accommodation for your child's specific needs.

Our son's music teacher was more than accommodating, making a copy for Ian

and sending it home to us through the teacher. She didn't give it to the

child, so's not to single him out. Ian learned his music at home, voice as well

as

the recorder, where he could hear me play it to sing along, or hear himself

laying it without the cacophony of 25 recorders.

You shouldn't have to call an IEP meeting to get this accommodation, but

this is now something to add to your list of things to be added to it when they

have the next official one. It is a form of pre-teaching, and if that is

already in your IEP, then this is a practical application of that teaching

strategy and you can inform the principal that it IS already covered in the IEP

and

they need to follow it.

And if they refuse you after all this and you feel it is that important

(which I would, because Ian does need to learn music outside of a loud

classroom)

then you can call for an IEP meeting to have it added to the plan.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/2006 3:47:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

kjbeanne@... writes:

That's too

much music to photocopy and there are copyright issues. " and i could

tell that was the end of the discussion as far as she was concerned.

Should i push this? should i ask to have the fm available for choir

practice in the morning? (doubt it would ever get used)...

Lydia is mod/severe in both ears. And i KNOW she isn't hearing the

notes cause she sings at home with her brother and they sing totally

different tunes... and not just harmony either lol

Yes, push, but push politely. " Oh, I didn't realize there was a copyright

issue. Could you tell me what arrangement you are using so that I can buy the

same one? " OR " Which publisher is it so that I can order/purchase the music

myself? " " Keeping her close is a great idea, but she needs a bit more than

that. " " We always get our own copy of the music for the church choir as well

because she needs to work on it at home to feel secure enough to be able to

sing out. " (whether you belong to the church choir or not, I'd guild that lily

-- grin)

Or, you can simply go to the principal and say that you've asked and been

rebuffed, but that you know that Lydia needs to be able to practice at home

where it is a quiet listening environment. Will she/he please get you a copy of

the music so that you can pre-teach your daughter at home. You are not asking

for the school to provide it to all the kids in class but they do need to

provide it as an accommodation for your child's specific needs.

Our son's music teacher was more than accommodating, making a copy for Ian

and sending it home to us through the teacher. She didn't give it to the

child, so's not to single him out. Ian learned his music at home, voice as well

as

the recorder, where he could hear me play it to sing along, or hear himself

laying it without the cacophony of 25 recorders.

You shouldn't have to call an IEP meeting to get this accommodation, but

this is now something to add to your list of things to be added to it when they

have the next official one. It is a form of pre-teaching, and if that is

already in your IEP, then this is a practical application of that teaching

strategy and you can inform the principal that it IS already covered in the IEP

and

they need to follow it.

And if they refuse you after all this and you feel it is that important

(which I would, because Ian does need to learn music outside of a loud

classroom)

then you can call for an IEP meeting to have it added to the plan.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/2006 4:31:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

sheribyrne@... writes:

We definitely had this in Patty's IEP. " Copyright concerns " sounds like

sheer laziness to me, there is a " fair use " exemption to copyright

violations that this use would clearly come under.

Sheri

Actually there is a no-copying thing with sheet music. Copying it is

definitely a violation of the copyright. Schools are famous for violating this

and

have faced stiff penalties when it's been discovered and pursued.

However, it is an unacceptable excuse for not making this accommodation.

Copying workbooks is also a copyright violation, but I'll bet that 3/4 of the

school's staff regularly make copies of worksheets for the kids when they

should have purchased a classroom set of the book as a consumable product each

year.

And getting an extra copy of the music is not a big expense. It's about $3-5

per piece of music. I've bought copies of competition music for our daughter

because they won't give kids copies of the music because they can't just

copy it. It is actually illegal to do it. They have only an few copies which

they keep in school and often return those to the competition officials

afterwards. So, I find out the arrangement, the publisher and the copyright

date, and

then I buy the same music. I've ordered it online or gotten it at the local

music store. It's really not a big deal, at this age the kids aren't

playing/singing anything that is really original or hard to find.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/2006 4:31:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

sheribyrne@... writes:

We definitely had this in Patty's IEP. " Copyright concerns " sounds like

sheer laziness to me, there is a " fair use " exemption to copyright

violations that this use would clearly come under.

Sheri

Actually there is a no-copying thing with sheet music. Copying it is

definitely a violation of the copyright. Schools are famous for violating this

and

have faced stiff penalties when it's been discovered and pursued.

However, it is an unacceptable excuse for not making this accommodation.

Copying workbooks is also a copyright violation, but I'll bet that 3/4 of the

school's staff regularly make copies of worksheets for the kids when they

should have purchased a classroom set of the book as a consumable product each

year.

And getting an extra copy of the music is not a big expense. It's about $3-5

per piece of music. I've bought copies of competition music for our daughter

because they won't give kids copies of the music because they can't just

copy it. It is actually illegal to do it. They have only an few copies which

they keep in school and often return those to the competition officials

afterwards. So, I find out the arrangement, the publisher and the copyright

date, and

then I buy the same music. I've ordered it online or gotten it at the local

music store. It's really not a big deal, at this age the kids aren't

playing/singing anything that is really original or hard to find.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/24/2006 4:31:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

sheribyrne@... writes:

We definitely had this in Patty's IEP. " Copyright concerns " sounds like

sheer laziness to me, there is a " fair use " exemption to copyright

violations that this use would clearly come under.

Sheri

Actually there is a no-copying thing with sheet music. Copying it is

definitely a violation of the copyright. Schools are famous for violating this

and

have faced stiff penalties when it's been discovered and pursued.

However, it is an unacceptable excuse for not making this accommodation.

Copying workbooks is also a copyright violation, but I'll bet that 3/4 of the

school's staff regularly make copies of worksheets for the kids when they

should have purchased a classroom set of the book as a consumable product each

year.

And getting an extra copy of the music is not a big expense. It's about $3-5

per piece of music. I've bought copies of competition music for our daughter

because they won't give kids copies of the music because they can't just

copy it. It is actually illegal to do it. They have only an few copies which

they keep in school and often return those to the competition officials

afterwards. So, I find out the arrangement, the publisher and the copyright

date, and

then I buy the same music. I've ordered it online or gotten it at the local

music store. It's really not a big deal, at this age the kids aren't

playing/singing anything that is really original or hard to find.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

Hi Kellie - we include this in Sam's 504 plan...

Barbara

Kellie wrote:

>

> My 5th grade daughter is in Choir... I approached the music teacher

> today to see if I could get the sheet music for the songs they are

> working on so i can work with her at home on the piano. Music

> teacher dismissed me with a " i'll keep her closer to me. That's too

> much music to photocopy and there are copyright issues. " and i could

> tell that was the end of the discussion as far as she was concerned.

>

> Should i push this? should i ask to have the fm available for choir

> practice in the morning? (doubt it would ever get used)...

>

> Lydia is mod/severe in both ears. And i KNOW she isn't hearing the

> notes cause she sings at home with her brother and they sing totally

> different tunes... and not just harmony either lol

>

> Kellie

>

>

--

****************

Barbara Mellert

Manager, Social Science Computing

Kiewit Computing Services

Dartmouth College

13A Silsby Hall, HB 6121

Hanover NH 03755

Telephone: 603/646-2877

URL: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~ssc

[Guest guest]

We definitely had this in Patty's IEP. " Copyright concerns " sounds like

sheer laziness to me, there is a " fair use " exemption to copyright

violations that this use would clearly come under.

Sheri

[Guest guest]

Hi Kellie,

When my daughter was in kindergarten and practicing for the holiday

program she was trying to sing the songs to me. It was at that time I realized

that, although can hear the tune....she didn't hear many of the words

correctly. I put a call into her teacher and promptly got the words. That

spring, we placed into her IEP that music and words for songs being learned were

suppose to be sent home for us to practice.

In first grade, we changed schools. Since it was listed in her IEP, I

asked her teacher to mention it to the music teacher so that I could get a copy.

When the teacher asked for the music, she was brushed off, and let me know. So

I followed up with a few emails and a phone call. She wasn't very nice about

it. The music teacher told me that as the kids learned the songs, she would

send home the words. Well, this was the second week in November. I've sung in

choirs since I was in 3rd grade and I know that classes begin learning these

songs around Halloween. I did eventually get the " words " typed out for each

song week by week. The unfortunate part is that I had NO idea what the

arrangements were for two of songs. I learned this as I tried to sing them with

. She kept telling me that I was singing it wrong.

So I'm hoping for better things this year. We purchased a piano over the

summer so now I can plunk out notes to get a better feel for how the music goes.

I definately think it is worth pursuing. I love Jill's ideas and plan to use

them myself if I run into simular difficulties this year. Your daughter joined

choir so that she could sing. She should be given every opportunity to do her

best. Just as in the regular class, certain things need to be pretaught. Music

to me is no different.

It can't hurt to use the FM system, but if the choir is meeting before school

it may be tricky to get it from the person who charges it overnight.

Debbie, mom to , 7, moderate SNHL and , 4, hearing

Kellie kjbeanne@...> wrote:

Should i push this? should i ask to have the fm available for choir

practice in the morning? (doubt it would ever get used)...

Kellie

Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were

and ask why not. G.B Shaw

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hi Kellie,

When my daughter was in kindergarten and practicing for the holiday

program she was trying to sing the songs to me. It was at that time I realized

that, although can hear the tune....she didn't hear many of the words

correctly. I put a call into her teacher and promptly got the words. That

spring, we placed into her IEP that music and words for songs being learned were

suppose to be sent home for us to practice.

In first grade, we changed schools. Since it was listed in her IEP, I

asked her teacher to mention it to the music teacher so that I could get a copy.

When the teacher asked for the music, she was brushed off, and let me know. So

I followed up with a few emails and a phone call. She wasn't very nice about

it. The music teacher told me that as the kids learned the songs, she would

send home the words. Well, this was the second week in November. I've sung in

choirs since I was in 3rd grade and I know that classes begin learning these

songs around Halloween. I did eventually get the " words " typed out for each

song week by week. The unfortunate part is that I had NO idea what the

arrangements were for two of songs. I learned this as I tried to sing them with

. She kept telling me that I was singing it wrong.

So I'm hoping for better things this year. We purchased a piano over the

summer so now I can plunk out notes to get a better feel for how the music goes.

I definately think it is worth pursuing. I love Jill's ideas and plan to use

them myself if I run into simular difficulties this year. Your daughter joined

choir so that she could sing. She should be given every opportunity to do her

best. Just as in the regular class, certain things need to be pretaught. Music

to me is no different.

It can't hurt to use the FM system, but if the choir is meeting before school

it may be tricky to get it from the person who charges it overnight.

Debbie, mom to , 7, moderate SNHL and , 4, hearing

Kellie kjbeanne@...> wrote:

Should i push this? should i ask to have the fm available for choir

practice in the morning? (doubt it would ever get used)...

Kellie

Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were

and ask why not. G.B Shaw

---------------------------------

How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Guest guest]

Hi Kellie,

When my daughter was in kindergarten and practicing for the holiday

program she was trying to sing the songs to me. It was at that time I realized

that, although can hear the tune....she didn't hear many of the words

correctly. I put a call into her teacher and promptly got the words. That

spring, we placed into her IEP that music and words for songs being learned were

suppose to be sent home for us to practice.

In first grade, we changed schools. Since it was listed in her IEP, I

asked her teacher to mention it to the music teacher so that I could get a copy.

When the teacher asked for the music, she was brushed off, and let me know. So

I followed up with a few emails and a phone call. She wasn't very nice about

it. The music teacher told me that as the kids learned the songs, she would

send home the words. Well, this was the second week in November. I've sung in

choirs since I was in 3rd grade and I know that classes begin learning these

songs around Halloween. I did eventually get the " words " typed out for each

song week by week. The unfortunate part is that I had NO idea what the

arrangements were for two of songs. I learned this as I tried to sing them with

. She kept telling me that I was singing it wrong.

So I'm hoping for better things this year. We purchased a piano over the

summer so now I can plunk out notes to get a better feel for how the music goes.

I definately think it is worth pursuing. I love Jill's ideas and plan to use

them myself if I run into simular difficulties this year. Your daughter joined

choir so that she could sing. She should be given every opportunity to do her

best. Just as in the regular class, certain things need to be pretaught. Music

to me is no different.

It can't hurt to use the FM system, but if the choir is meeting before school

it may be tricky to get it from the person who charges it overnight.

Debbie, mom to , 7, moderate SNHL and , 4, hearing

Kellie kjbeanne@...> wrote:

Should i push this? should i ask to have the fm available for choir

practice in the morning? (doubt it would ever get used)...

Kellie

Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things that never were

and ask why not. G.B Shaw

---------------------------------

How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for all the replies! We do have the words, but many of

these are arrangements of songs and i haven't a clue which part she

should be singing. And as i said, her brother is singing other

parts so i don't even know that he could help.

I understand the copyright issues. And they are singing many

different songs, and it isn't competitive, but i still think she

needs some more *something* to help her.

Maybe her being closer to the teacher will help. who knows. This

teacher is a very good musician but not a flexible person at all at

all.

I might just try one more time and if i don't get anywhere let it

slide for this season and put my efforts into making sure Lydia will

have the sheet music for middle school choir and class.

Dear (?) Husband says i worry too much and am making a big deal out

of something that should be fun.

But it isn't fun to sing wrong notes and get stared at by your

fellow choir members.

kellie

>

> Should i push this? should i ask to have the fm available for

choir

> practice in the morning? (doubt it would ever get used)...

>

> Kellie

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things

that never were and ask why not. G.B Shaw

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone

call rates.

>

>

[Guest guest]

The main reason teachers have given me when they refuse to provide copies to my

son is that they have limited paper " allowances, " so they don't want to print or

copy anything that they don't need to. My reply was to buy each teacher a ream

of paper so that they would have 500 pages to use to make extra copies for my

son.

Kiminy

JillcWood@... wrote:

In a message dated 10/24/2006 3:47:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

kjbeanne@... writes:

That's too

much music to photocopy and there are copyright issues. " and i could

tell that was the end of the discussion as far as she was concerned.

---------------------------------

Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small

Business.

[Guest guest]

Kellie,

I don't know if your daughter's hearing loss may continue to increase

to the point of needing a CI. My son, who is a musician is in that

situation, so I have had many discussions about music with his ENTs.

They both believe, from experience (there have been no actual studies

done), that while many people with CIs don't hear music well, those

that do, are usually people who have had a lot of exposure to music and

whose brains have really learned how to " hear " it before the implant. I

have explained this to my son's various music teachers- voice, piano,

accapella, guitar, etc. As musicians themselves, they have all been

spurred on to give my son the best possible music experience during

this " window " . If your daughter is in this situation, maybe a

discussion like this will help.

Re: ? on school sponsored after school activities

Thanks for all the replies! We do have the words, but many of

these are arrangements of songs and i haven't a clue which part she

should be singing. And as i said, her brother is singing other

parts so i don't even know that he could help.

I understand the copyright issues. And they are singing many

different songs, and it isn't competitive, but i still think she

needs some more *something* to help her.

Maybe her being closer to the teacher will help. who knows. This

teacher is a very good musician but not a flexible person at all at

all.

I might just try one more time and if i don't get anywhere let it

slide for this season and put my efforts into making sure Lydia will

have the sheet music for middle school choir and class.

Dear (?) Husband says i worry too much and am making a big deal out

of something that should be fun.

But it isn't fun to sing wrong notes and get stared at by your

fellow choir members.

kellie

>

> Should i push this? should i ask to have the fm available for

choir

> practice in the morning? (doubt it would ever get used)...

>

> Kellie

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things

that never were and ask why not. G.B Shaw

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone

call rates.

>

>

[Guest guest]

We really don't know... her hearing loss has been progressive, but

it seems to be stable for the time being. I agree with you that

while we know she can hear what she can we should give her the most

exposure possible. Which is why she is in choir and we sing all

the time at home and i play as many different types of music as i

can stand as often as i can. (Rap and fusion just don't do it for

me.... synchopated noise as my dad calls it)

This teacher seems to be in a world of her own tho and doesn't want

any intrusions or diversions from her routine. I just don't know

how far we'll get, but Lydia's little sister is following in her

footsteps so we will likely be facing this again with the same

teacher in a few years. Sara's loss isn't as great but progressive

as well.

I sent a note to the ISD AI lady to see what she has to say about

maybe ammending Lydia's ARD for preteaching in middle school....

sigh

Kellie

> >

> > Should i push this? should i ask to have the fm available for

> choir

> > practice in the morning? (doubt it would ever get used)...

> >

> > Kellie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Some men see things as they are and ask why. Others dream things

> that never were and ask why not. G.B Shaw

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone

> call rates.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I didn't say it wasn't a copyright violation, I said there was an exception

which makes copyright violations allowable called the fair use doctrine. I

am actually a former intellectual property attorney (before I started

tackling health insurers) and while this posting should not be considered

legal advice, this is an area that I do know quite a bit about. Providing a

single copy of sheet music for non commercial purposes to assist a HI child

to be able to participate more fully in class would likely be considered an

acceptable copyright violation under the fair use doctrine.

Either way the school is being unforgivably lazy or cheap (pick one) and it

is ridiculous to think that an HI kid can receive adequate FAPE in a choir

class without printed copies of the lyrics. I got the same push back from

Patty's choir teachers about five years ago which is why I had them write

that she would receive written copies of the music and lyrics BEFORE the

song was introduced into her IEP.

Sheri