Re: Empathy for my nada? more like pity, now

April 18, 2012

Mine grew up with my life Hero! My grandfather was the kindest, most generous

man I've ever known. Never said anything bad about anyone, and was always

encouraging. How did she get that way? We don't know. You are tight, its hard

to identify empathy, when it wounded us so badly.

Bill Hade

billfunnyman@...

Empathy for my nada? more like pity, now

I understand where you're coming from, and I think I could have felt more

empathy and understanding for my nada if she HAD actually come from an abusive

home.

Sister and I grew up hearing awful stories about how my nada's father had a hair

trigger temper and would beat her and her sisters, and how her own mother

rejected her and ignored her and favored her oldest daughter. (My nada was the

middle of three girls.)

But these stories were jarringly, bizarrely in opposition to the reality I

experienced whenever we visited my maternal grandparents and my mother's sisters

and their families for big family Sunday dinners at least once a month, and

sometimes twice; and we went on big family vacations together sometimes and so

were cheek-to-jowl with my grandparents and aunts and cousins for days at a

time.

My Grandparents were nice, kind, loving people. My mother's family were and are

just simple, hard-working, kind-hearted people.

My Grandpa did not have a scary temper, he never yelled at anyone. My Aunts and

their families are nice. My Grandma never seemed to favor any of us grandkids

over the others, she was just rather quiet and wall-flowery but loving.

As a teen I began to really wonder about this clanging discrepancy between my

mother's descriptions and beliefs about how her parents were, how they treated

her, and my own personal observations and experiences.

My own mother was the ONLY adult I ever saw fly into red-faced, screaming,

spittle-flying rages that would often progress into physical violence. I saw my

own mother verbally attack her own older sister with quietly seething rage (the

one she claimed was the favorite, and whom she loathed) when none of the other

adults were around, and I saw that my Aunt would never defend herself, she would

just fold her arms, hang her head and walk away. I learned later that my aunt

would cry on the way home, each time. She is a sweet and gentle soul just like

her mother/my grandmother was.

Late in my mother's life, as she began to succumb to senile dementia, Sister and

I learned from our Aunts that our mother's version of her/their childhood as a

neglected, beaten child was not the case at all. In fact, my Aunts were

astonished to hear the kinds of things that my nada had been claiming had

happened to her AND to her sisters when they were kids. They were flabbergasted.

Our Aunts assured my Sister and me that none of them were regularly beaten, they

weren't afraid of their father, our mother had not been neglected or mistreated,

and their mother/my grandmother was just a sweet person and didn't play ugly

mind games with her children or pit them against each other. Just as I had

observed myself.

These fixed delusions of neglect and abuse had only been in my mother's demented

little head, for her whole life.

My nada had also developed fixed delusions about my dad (she believed he was

having multiple affairs with her friends behind her back) and about Sister and

me (she believed we were always lying to her, that we were lesbians, and other

things that were complete fabrications. She truly believed that I as an *infant*

had hated her and rejected her.)

So, what I feel mostly is sad and frustrated that someone who was so genuinely

mentally ill was able to pass as " normal " in public , never got treatment

voluntarily, and ended up doing so much damage as a parent. So much damage. What

a waste of human potential.

I guess I should feel lucky and grateful that she was able to give me one good

thing: she did encourage me and support me in developing a talent I had until I

could get good enough at it to make a living with it. So, thanks for that, nada.

I'm not sure I can ever feel empathy for my nada, but now that she is deceased,

I am beginning to feel a little bit of pity for her, because she was so very,

very miserable, frustrated, angry and unhappy most of the time and she could

have gotten herself help for it, so easily.

-Annie

>

> I totally get where you are coming from Annie, and believe me I have a hard

time turning on the empathy for abusive people, especially waify ones. But using

the same logic, the BPDs are usually grown up abused children themselves, no?

>

> I am struggling with this myself. Having empathy for my now deceased (cue her

favorite song, Amazing Grace) NADA. I can only feel empathy if I imagine her as

a little girl. If I imagine her as an adult all I get is those black eyes and

borderline rage face (which to be fair I haven't experienced in a number of

years prior to her death, she had moved on to more stealth activities).

>

> Boy I really hate PD Moms. And I really want to transform this hate into

something more constructive like rebuilding my own life. But it's like my rage

synapses are so strong, if you understand what I mean.

>

> SR

>

April 18, 2012

As far as I can tell, my nada wasn't abused. Her mother may not

have been the nicest parent in the world and parts of her

childhood weren't pleasant, but nothing I've ever heard, even

from my nada, leads me to believe there was abuse going on.

When I first learned about BPD, the literature I read said that

it was sometimes connected to the loss of a parent as a child.

That's exactly what happened to my nada. Her father died when

she was around 13. They were poor after that and poverty was a

horrible experience for someone who cared about appearances as

much as she does. From what I've heard though, my nada was

showing signs of having a personality disorder even before that

happened. One of my uncles told me that she controlled the

family by having tantrums. I've also been told my multiple

people that some of the stories she tells about " wrongs " that

happened in her teens just plain aren't true. Her mother's

mother is reputed to have been " crazy " in a nasty way so I'm

inclined to strongly suspect that genetics are involved.

I feel sorry that my nada suffers from BPD/NPD. No one deserves

to feel the way people with those personality disorders feel. It

must be terrible to feel that way. The things she's done and

continues to do are her own choices though, and she could choose

not to do them. Feeling bad is not an excuse for harming others.

The fact that her behavior has changed for the better since I

started hanging up on her when she got nasty tells me that she's

capable of controlling herself. That makes any sorrow and pity I

feel for her rather theoretical rather than directed towards her

as a person. (I'm not sure that makes sense, but I don't know

how to describe it any better.)

At 11:39 AM 04/18/2012 anuria67854 wrote:

>I understand where you're coming from, and I think I could have

>felt more empathy and understanding for my nada if she HAD

>actually come from an abusive home.

>

>Sister and I grew up hearing awful stories about how my nada's

>father had a hair trigger temper and would beat her and her

>sisters, and how her own mother rejected her and ignored her

>and favored her oldest daughter. (My nada was the middle of

>three girls.)

>

>But these stories were jarringly, bizarrely in opposition to

>the reality I experienced whenever we visited my maternal

>grandparents and my mother's sisters and their families for big

>family Sunday dinners at least once a month, and sometimes

>twice; and we went on big family vacations together sometimes

>and so were cheek-to-jowl with my grandparents and aunts and

>cousins for days at a time.

>

>My Grandparents were nice, kind, loving people. My mother's

>family were and are just simple, hard-working, kind-hearted

>people.

>

>My Grandpa did not have a scary temper, he never yelled at

>anyone. My Aunts and their families are nice. My Grandma never

>seemed to favor any of us grandkids over the others, she was

>just rather quiet and wall-flowery but loving.

>

>As a teen I began to really wonder about this clanging

>discrepancy between my mother's descriptions and beliefs about

>how her parents were, how they treated her, and my own

>personal observations and experiences.

>

>My own mother was the ONLY adult I ever saw fly into red-faced,

>screaming, spittle-flying rages that would often progress into

>physical violence. I saw my own mother verbally attack her

>own older sister with quietly seething rage (the one she

>claimed was the favorite, and whom she loathed) when none of

>the other adults were around, and I saw that my Aunt would

>never defend herself, she would just fold her arms, hang her

>head and walk away. I learned later that my aunt would cry on

>the way home, each time. She is a sweet and gentle soul just

>like her mother/my grandmother was.

>

>Late in my mother's life, as she began to succumb to senile

>dementia, Sister and I learned from our Aunts that our mother's

>version of her/their childhood as a neglected, beaten child was

>not the case at all. In fact, my Aunts were astonished to hear

>the kinds of things that my nada had been claiming had happened

>to her AND to her sisters when they were kids. They were

>flabbergasted. Our Aunts assured my Sister and me that none of

>them were regularly beaten, they weren't afraid of their

>father, our mother had not been neglected or mistreated, and

>their mother/my grandmother was just a sweet person and didn't

>play ugly mind games with her children or pit them against each

>other. Just as I had observed myself.

>

>These fixed delusions of neglect and abuse had only been in my

>mother's demented little head, for her whole life.

>

>My nada had also developed fixed delusions about my dad (she

>believed he was having multiple affairs with her friends behind

>her back) and about Sister and me (she believed we were always

>lying to her, that we were lesbians, and other things that were

>complete fabrications. She truly believed that I as an

>*infant* had hated her and rejected her.)

>

>So, what I feel mostly is sad and frustrated that someone who

>was so genuinely mentally ill was able to pass as " normal " in

>public , never got treatment voluntarily, and ended up doing

>so much damage as a parent. So much damage. What a waste of

>human potential.

>

>I guess I should feel lucky and grateful that she was able to

>give me one good thing: she did encourage me and support me in

>developing a talent I had until I could get good enough at it

>to make a living with it. So, thanks for that, nada.

>

>I'm not sure I can ever feel empathy for my nada, but now that

>she is deceased, I am beginning to feel a little bit of pity

>for her, because she was so very, very miserable, frustrated,

>angry and unhappy most of the time and she could have gotten

>herself help for it, so easily.

>

>-Annie

--

Katrina

April 18, 2012

Wow, if ever there was a case of someone that was almost purely a biological

factors for BPD, it sounds like your nada was it. Thank goodness you figured out

what you did about her family. C

> >

> > I totally get where you are coming from Annie, and believe me I have a hard

time turning on the empathy for abusive people, especially waify ones. But

using the same logic, the BPDs are usually grown up abused children themselves,

no?

> >

> > I am struggling with this myself. Having empathy for my now deceased (cue

her favorite song, Amazing Grace) NADA. I can only feel empathy if I imagine

her as a little girl. If I imagine her as an adult all I get is those black

eyes and borderline rage face (which to be fair I haven't experienced in a

number of years prior to her death, she had moved on to more stealth

activities).

> >

> > Boy I really hate PD Moms. And I really want to transform this hate into

something more constructive like rebuilding my own life. But it's like my rage

synapses are so strong, if you understand what I mean.

> >

> > SR

> >

>

April 18, 2012

Wow, if ever there was a case of someone that was almost purely a biological

factors for BPD, it sounds like your nada was it. Thank goodness you figured out

what you did about her family. C

> >

> > I totally get where you are coming from Annie, and believe me I have a hard

time turning on the empathy for abusive people, especially waify ones. But

using the same logic, the BPDs are usually grown up abused children themselves,

no?

> >

> > I am struggling with this myself. Having empathy for my now deceased (cue

her favorite song, Amazing Grace) NADA. I can only feel empathy if I imagine

her as a little girl. If I imagine her as an adult all I get is those black

eyes and borderline rage face (which to be fair I haven't experienced in a

number of years prior to her death, she had moved on to more stealth

activities).

> >

> > Boy I really hate PD Moms. And I really want to transform this hate into

something more constructive like rebuilding my own life. But it's like my rage

synapses are so strong, if you understand what I mean.

> >

> > SR

> >

>

April 18, 2012

I agree. I think it was an unfortunate spin on the double genetic roulette

wheel, myself, that turned up a double zero for my nada in the temperamental

factor of " sensitivity " . I think my nada was ultra-hyper-sensitive (as in " no

emotional skin " ) so every ordinary, minor little mole-hill of an irritant became

HORRIBLY ABUSIVE TORTURE to her mind, starting at birth.

That's total bpd black-and-white thinking. Plus my nada had cognitive

distortion, meaning she wasn't able to perceive incoming information very

accurately, particularly if it was emotionally-loaded. She had what I called a

" negative filter " ; she would put a negative spin on a situation or interaction

pretty often. Very depressing, and it made me not want to share anything close

to my heart with her.

She had NO boundaries and considered me, my Sister and our dad to be extensions

of herself; we were only allowed to think what she thought, feel what she felt,

etc. And she had no empathy. She could look in the faces of her pitiful,

terrified, crying children and not stop herself from physically abusing us and

then force us to hug her and comfort her afterward. How sick is THAT, I ask

you?

And yet she was good at her work and could keep a job, and was pleasant to her

neighbors and strangers, church friends and co-workers, at least to their faces.

But she didn't have a " best friend " that she would just hang out with and do

girl stuff with, and NOBODY ever just dropped in on us for a friendly short

visit, or to borrow a cup of sugar, etc. She and dad had " couple friends " that

they'd play cards with, that was about it.

So, anyway. I agree with a piece I read somewhere that said that borderline pd

is a disorder of intimacy; the more intimate you are with the bpd person, the

more likely that the relationship will become abusive and unendurable. So I

guess my dad was a totally co-dependent, enmeshed, rescuer type, because he just

endured it; he never left her.

He just drank himself to death at a relatively early age, instead.

-Annie

>

> Wow, if ever there was a case of someone that was almost purely a biological

factors for BPD, it sounds like your nada was it. Thank goodness you figured out

what you did about her family. C

April 18, 2012

I agree. I think it was an unfortunate spin on the double genetic roulette

wheel, myself, that turned up a double zero for my nada in the temperamental

factor of " sensitivity " . I think my nada was ultra-hyper-sensitive (as in " no

emotional skin " ) so every ordinary, minor little mole-hill of an irritant became

HORRIBLY ABUSIVE TORTURE to her mind, starting at birth.

That's total bpd black-and-white thinking. Plus my nada had cognitive

distortion, meaning she wasn't able to perceive incoming information very

accurately, particularly if it was emotionally-loaded. She had what I called a

" negative filter " ; she would put a negative spin on a situation or interaction

pretty often. Very depressing, and it made me not want to share anything close

to my heart with her.

She had NO boundaries and considered me, my Sister and our dad to be extensions

of herself; we were only allowed to think what she thought, feel what she felt,

etc. And she had no empathy. She could look in the faces of her pitiful,

terrified, crying children and not stop herself from physically abusing us and

then force us to hug her and comfort her afterward. How sick is THAT, I ask

you?

And yet she was good at her work and could keep a job, and was pleasant to her

neighbors and strangers, church friends and co-workers, at least to their faces.

But she didn't have a " best friend " that she would just hang out with and do

girl stuff with, and NOBODY ever just dropped in on us for a friendly short

visit, or to borrow a cup of sugar, etc. She and dad had " couple friends " that

they'd play cards with, that was about it.

So, anyway. I agree with a piece I read somewhere that said that borderline pd

is a disorder of intimacy; the more intimate you are with the bpd person, the

more likely that the relationship will become abusive and unendurable. So I

guess my dad was a totally co-dependent, enmeshed, rescuer type, because he just

endured it; he never left her.

He just drank himself to death at a relatively early age, instead.

-Annie

>

> Wow, if ever there was a case of someone that was almost purely a biological

factors for BPD, it sounds like your nada was it. Thank goodness you figured out

what you did about her family. C

April 19, 2012

my Nada does not even imagine she was abused. her mom can be a pain she is a bit

manipulative, and bossy, but I think is the normal kind.Nada has an

" explanation " for that. I have no idea why she has so many issues. Mostly with

my Nada life is just a HUGE competition in which she competes with her FOO for

who has the most/best/smartest/perfect... kids/grand kids. she seems to put a

lot of store in us being perfect so she looks good. when her kids do things she

doesn't like it is always someone elses fault. unless they are one of us dung

children. at church when she teaches, she brings a scrapbook, and talks about

how perfect we all are. it offends people. in public (or when talking about her

favorites) she twists reality so that we are not to blame for anything we do, or

denies the problems. then in private she recites her naughty list. These are my

children who resent that I did not come to their sporting events....

she has no problems. If anyone does it is them. That is why 6 out of her 11

children have detached in one form or another. we don't measure up.

Meikjn

> > >

> > > I totally get where you are coming from Annie, and believe me I have a

hard time turning on the empathy for abusive people, especially waify ones. But

using the same logic, the BPDs are usually grown up abused children themselves,

no?

> > >

> > > I am struggling with this myself. Having empathy for my now deceased

(cue her favorite song, Amazing Grace) NADA. I can only feel empathy if I

imagine her as a little girl. If I imagine her as an adult all I get is those

black eyes and borderline rage face (which to be fair I haven't experienced in a

number of years prior to her death, she had moved on to more stealth

activities).

> > >

> > > Boy I really hate PD Moms. And I really want to transform this hate into

something more constructive like rebuilding my own life. But it's like my rage

synapses are so strong, if you understand what I mean.

> > >

> > > SR

> > >

> >

>

April 19, 2012