Guest guest Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I haven't been very active in this group for some time, but I was thinking today that I still seem to believe I need permission or validation of the legitimacy of my views in order to have them. I just wondered if that was a common outcome of having a nada/fada. Ashana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Yes, growing up being always told we are feeling things wrong, mistaken in our interpretation of their actions sets us up to doubt ourselves all the time. It's confusing and it's from being 'gaslighted' as children. It is part of the enmeshment process. It is confusing in that society is always telling us to honor our parents, and those well meaning people unfamiliar with PD parents are always shocked and judgmental when we talk about the lengths we have to go to avoid their abuse. Do not doubt yourself. When you doubt yourself you are doubting your experiences and negating the abuse you suffered. If they have not gotten help, if they do not validate you, there is no reason to open yourself to them again for more hurt. > > I haven't been very active in this group for some time, but I was thinking today that I still seem to believe I need permission or validation of the legitimacy of my views in order to have them. I just wondered if that was a common outcome of having a nada/fada. > > Ashana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Yes, growing up being always told we are feeling things wrong, mistaken in our interpretation of their actions sets us up to doubt ourselves all the time. It's confusing and it's from being 'gaslighted' as children. It is part of the enmeshment process. It is confusing in that society is always telling us to honor our parents, and those well meaning people unfamiliar with PD parents are always shocked and judgmental when we talk about the lengths we have to go to avoid their abuse. Do not doubt yourself. When you doubt yourself you are doubting your experiences and negating the abuse you suffered. If they have not gotten help, if they do not validate you, there is no reason to open yourself to them again for more hurt. > > I haven't been very active in this group for some time, but I was thinking today that I still seem to believe I need permission or validation of the legitimacy of my views in order to have them. I just wondered if that was a common outcome of having a nada/fada. > > Ashana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Yes, growing up being always told we are feeling things wrong, mistaken in our interpretation of their actions sets us up to doubt ourselves all the time. It's confusing and it's from being 'gaslighted' as children. It is part of the enmeshment process. It is confusing in that society is always telling us to honor our parents, and those well meaning people unfamiliar with PD parents are always shocked and judgmental when we talk about the lengths we have to go to avoid their abuse. Do not doubt yourself. When you doubt yourself you are doubting your experiences and negating the abuse you suffered. If they have not gotten help, if they do not validate you, there is no reason to open yourself to them again for more hurt. > > I haven't been very active in this group for some time, but I was thinking today that I still seem to believe I need permission or validation of the legitimacy of my views in order to have them. I just wondered if that was a common outcome of having a nada/fada. > > Ashana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Hi, Ashana! I remember you. I used to use a different username here so you might not know exactly who I am...but you wrote me a nice email once a few years ago when I said I was taking some time away from the board. Anyway, yes, it is very common to feel what you are feeling. We are taught our whole lives that our perceptions aren't valid. We are expected to always defer to what our BPD parent believes, sometimes we are even severely punished for daring to have a different opinion or perception. We are expected to be exactly the same person as them. We learn to doubt that we have the ability to do things on our own. Also, longing for the validation and positive attention from our parent, we frequently turn to other authority figures to feed that need. Working with a therapist can sometimes help us learn how to self-validate. Sveta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Hi Ashana, I'm not sure I quite follow the point you are explaining, but I can state that in my own case, I have many memories that are very clear regarding abusive incidents I endured when I was a child. I'm pretty sure that my earliest memory of being afraid of my mother and hiding from her occurred when I was around 3 years old. The details of my memories are clear although I lost my ability to connect emotionally with these memories. My younger Sister on the other hand lost a lot of her early childhood memories, entirely. As adults, both my Sister and I were able to begin to give each other validation about our memories from later childhood, teen years, and early adult years that corroborated each other's perceptions that yes, we did indeed each experience very similar incidents of verbal and physical abuse from our own mother, mostly when we were alone with her. Apparently our nada's M.O. (modus operandi, or standard operating procedure) was to wait and make sure that there were no other witnesses before she'd unleash her rage at us and verbally or physically assault us. Along the concept of needing outside validation, within the last 10 years of our nada's life, I had repeatedly urged my Sister to cut back on the amount of her free time that she spent trying to please our nada, that Sister deserved time for herself, and that she should not feel guilty about cutting back because our nada was un-pleasable. No matter how often Sister went over to do things for our nada and spend time with her, it was never enough, and never done " right. " But it took my Sister hearing that very same advice from her therapist before she could accept it, and act on it. So for that particular issue, Sister needed someone she considered to be an authority figure to tell her that it was OK for her to cut back and stop trying to please our un-pleasable nada. In my Sister's case, her psychologist was a male; I'm not sure if that was a factor, or not. In my own case, although I already believed that my own memories from my early childhood are accurate, it did feel really validating to hear my Sister corroborate that she too had experienced really similar types and levels of abuse. And I was glad that I could help her realize that her fuzzy, unclear memories were real, and that she wasn't making this stuff up or exaggerating it. After a couple of years of therapy, my little Sister has gotten more of her early childhood memories back, which is a good sign, I believe. -Annie > > Hi Echo, > > It's not so much the self-doubt I was pondering as the assumption that in order to have legitimate perceptions or opinions someone else needs to agree, preferably someone in a position of authority. It implies a lack of a sense of ownership--even of one's own thoughts. > > I'm okay with self-doubt. I'm not always right--not even in what I remember. Eye-witnesses are notoriously unreliable, and some of what I remember I was too young to make sense of, and it's very difficult to tease out the facts from my disorganized impressions. I sometimes feel the world would be a better place if people doubted themselves more often. > > But I think the reality may be that people from more average backgrounds feel more entitled to have perceptions and opinions even if they are off-base or mistaken. The difference is a sense of ownership. > > There are other reasons I would feel a lack of a sense of ownership aside from bpd nada, but I thought it might be something other people on here could relate to. > > Take care, > Ashana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I hope you will find something that will help you; I feel for your pain. Perhaps writing down whatever fragments of memories come to you at odd moments (and don't worry about organizing them, just write down the fragments, and the dream-fragments, whenever they pop up) will help you gain more confidence that your memories are valid. best wishes, -Annie > > Hi Annie, > > I was just trying to distinguish between self-doubt--and specifically self-doubt about what I have experienced--and a lack of a sense of right to think or feel anything without some kind of justification or " vetting " from an expert. I was thinking probably along the lines of what it sounds like your sister experienced, where she didn't feel she had a right to cut back on contact with nada until the psychiatrist told her it was okay. > > I am comfortable with doubting my conclusions or even my perceptions. I'm not always right, and a little self-doubt seems reasonable. I'm not comfortable with believing I don't have a right to make up my own mind about something. I thought others might be able to relate and wanted to reach out. > > My memories are just a lot more disorganized than yours are and a lot more difficult to make sense of. > > Take care, > Ashana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Ashana, I feel the same way. I want to explain myself until I am sick to anyone who will listen to try to get them to understand my side. My need to get permission or validation from others leads to a lot of pain. > > I haven't been very active in this group for some time, but I was thinking today that I still seem to believe I need permission or validation of the legitimacy of my views in order to have them. I just wondered if that was a common outcome of having a nada/fada. > > Ashana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Jill, Thanks for getting it. I guess what gets articulated by the bpd parent is that you really aren't wanted or valuable to them, and that's part of the sense of a lack of ownership. It's hard to think who you are and what you think is worth anything after that, isn't it? And yet actually what you do and think is of value. Take care, Ashana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Jill, Thanks for getting it. I guess what gets articulated by the bpd parent is that you really aren't wanted or valuable to them, and that's part of the sense of a lack of ownership. It's hard to think who you are and what you think is worth anything after that, isn't it? And yet actually what you do and think is of value. Take care, Ashana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Hi Deanna, No one has to understand or agree with your side for it to be valid. That's the crazy thing. You shouldn't need permission just to think. Take care, Ashana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Yes, exactly. My nada's opinion wasn't just her own opinion, it was the Right opinion, it was The Truth, and The Only Opinion Possible. If I didn't concur, I was wrong, stupid, disrespectful, and/or crazy, and deserved to get screamed at, shamed, maybe punished, and possibly beaten. (And I'm talking everything from her opinion about ice cream flavors, to color schemes, to shoes, to people we knew, and religion, and politics, and everything in between. Only nada's opinion was the right one, always.) So, yeah. Been there, experienced that. -Annie > > Hi Fiona, > > Thanks for your reply. I guess one part of it is that I was noticing how often disordered people talk about their own opinions as if it isn't their own opinion: it's the correct opinion to have, the only opinion, in fact. It just seemed like that has to have an affect, to grow up with that. It would be easy to feel I need a good reason to have any kind of thought at all, because I would be unconsciously fighting that " correct " opinion all the time. > > It's interesting when you say you wonder if your thinking is right, because there are many times when there really isn't a " right. " A person just has a preference, or there are many possible right answers but the evidence does not yet clearly point to any one of them, or the " right " answer for you will depend on your priorities. But these are also situations when I see disordered people claim there is a right opinion to have. Narcissists, in particular, don't seem to have any awareness of actually being a person or of having a self who thinks and feels, and most of the bpds I know are a mix of npd/bpd traits. > > I am very careful about the opinions I form. I like to have very solid and cohesive evidence for the decisions I make or the views I form, and I think that's fine. It's good to be a careful reasoner and to take all sides of an argument into consideration. I don't really want to devolve into someone who makes a lot of snap judgments. But there are times it's okay to think or do things " just because, " and I don't know if I feel I can. For example, how I choose to spend a Sunday afternoon doesn't need the same level of scrupulous consideration as I might spend on a major life decision, but I think sometimes I do give it that kind of attention. > > Thanks again, > Ashana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Yes, exactly. My nada's opinion wasn't just her own opinion, it was the Right opinion, it was The Truth, and The Only Opinion Possible. If I didn't concur, I was wrong, stupid, disrespectful, and/or crazy, and deserved to get screamed at, shamed, maybe punished, and possibly beaten. (And I'm talking everything from her opinion about ice cream flavors, to color schemes, to shoes, to people we knew, and religion, and politics, and everything in between. Only nada's opinion was the right one, always.) So, yeah. Been there, experienced that. -Annie > > Hi Fiona, > > Thanks for your reply. I guess one part of it is that I was noticing how often disordered people talk about their own opinions as if it isn't their own opinion: it's the correct opinion to have, the only opinion, in fact. It just seemed like that has to have an affect, to grow up with that. It would be easy to feel I need a good reason to have any kind of thought at all, because I would be unconsciously fighting that " correct " opinion all the time. > > It's interesting when you say you wonder if your thinking is right, because there are many times when there really isn't a " right. " A person just has a preference, or there are many possible right answers but the evidence does not yet clearly point to any one of them, or the " right " answer for you will depend on your priorities. But these are also situations when I see disordered people claim there is a right opinion to have. Narcissists, in particular, don't seem to have any awareness of actually being a person or of having a self who thinks and feels, and most of the bpds I know are a mix of npd/bpd traits. > > I am very careful about the opinions I form. I like to have very solid and cohesive evidence for the decisions I make or the views I form, and I think that's fine. It's good to be a careful reasoner and to take all sides of an argument into consideration. I don't really want to devolve into someone who makes a lot of snap judgments. But there are times it's okay to think or do things " just because, " and I don't know if I feel I can. For example, how I choose to spend a Sunday afternoon doesn't need the same level of scrupulous consideration as I might spend on a major life decision, but I think sometimes I do give it that kind of attention. > > Thanks again, > Ashana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Thanks Ashana. I know that, intellectually. Just need more work on really believing it. > > > Hi Deanna, > > No one has to understand or agree with your side for it to be valid. That's the crazy thing. You shouldn't need permission just to think. > > Take care, > Ashana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Tucket: My girls are still very small (3 and 1), so I know this is a very critical time in their development. I try to validate their experiences and their feelings as much as possible while still maintaining appropriate " control " (authority, I guess, is a better word) as the parent. An example of how this plays out with the one-year-old (well, both of them, really). I'll tell them, " Yes, I know you want to play with that power cord, itty bitty marble, etc., but you can't because it will hurt you. " Sometimes I'll catch myself slipping into the " Well, I like that, why don't you? " mode - especially when it comes to food. So, recently, I've been trying to be more mindful of that, saying things like, " Well, Mommy likes this (the latest thing is sugar snap peas), but that doesn't mean you have to. " I keep the options open - give choices, but still try to maintain boundaries (No, you can't play with something that could hurt you. Yes, you can have candy, but you still have to eat a healthy dinner first - even if it's just a few bites ...). That sort of thing, if it makes sense at all. It may not even be the type of answer you're looking for. ... I also (although this may be more dysfunctional and less helpful) routinely tell them (especially the younger one when she's babbling, squealing, or crying for attention because I happen to be doing something with her older sister - not if she actually NEEDS something, like food, diaper change, etc.), " I see you. I hear you. You're not invisible. " I so often felt  (still do feel, really) so invisible, like I didn't matter at all. I don't want my girls to feel that way!  Or were you specifically talking about how they deal with nada's craziness? We haven't had to actually cross that bridge yet ... Well, that's not entirely true. I have had to go back and try to cover her mean words by telling my three-year-old she could play with what she wanted to play with (of her toys), and she didn't have to just play with what nada wanted her to play with, and I've had to tell my one-year-old that she is NOT a bitch after nada's called her one. One day I'm sure I'll have to go more in-depth with them about why she does what she does, and that they're not to blame. Well, actually, I've even started saying that to my three-year-old, but she doesn't " get " it yet ... I'm not really clear on how to handle some things in the best way. Some days after I talk to nada and am in tears and my three-year-old comes up to me and pats me on the back, telling me, " It's okay, Mommy. It's not your fault, " I really just want to strangle nada and myself for making my little girl feel like she needs to be my comforter (and validator). Days like that I just want to cut off all contact completely because I worry that the unhealthy relationship cycle will continue and will ruin my little girl for life, but my three-year-old loves nada so much ... :-( Okay. Now I'm REALLY not sure if this post is helpful to you at all ... Sorry for that detour!  ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 11:40 AM Subject: Re: a thought  I can really relate to this post and am grateful for everyone's insight. I think this really hit home for me recently when I was speaking to my younger brother and he validated the horror of the experience I am currently going through with nada and her family. All he had to do was say that I was right and that what they were doing was horrific and I broke down in tears of gratitude. I felt like someone finally told me I wasn't crazy. Its so hard to keep what feels true to me in my mind when nada and all her flying monkeys are continuously telling me I am wrong. I hate this insecurity for myself but am even more horrified of passing it down to my children (I don't have any yet but I am hoping to in the next few years). I would never want them to feel the self-doubt and lack of self-validation that I feel every day. For those of you who have felt this and have children, how have you handled this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Hi Alice, I think it is OK for your child to see you cry. I think it is normal and healthy for her to try and comfort you. I would respond with something like, " Thank you Sweetie, I feel better now. " It's scary, huh? Because your mother's emotions are so over the top and you don't want to be over the top. But it is OK and normal for all human beings to cry. And just because your mother took advantage and expected too much of you does not mean you will do the same thing to your child. Awareness is the most important step, and you have that! Deanna > > I'm not really clear on how to handle some things in the best way. Some days after I talk to nada and am in tears and my three-year-old comes up to me and pats me on the back, telling me, " It's okay, Mommy. It's not your fault, " I really just want to strangle nada and myself for making my little girl feel like she needs to be my comforter (and validator). Days like that I just want to cut off all contact completely because I worry that the unhealthy relationship cycle will continue and will ruin my little girl for life, but my three-year-old loves nada so much ... :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Wow, you guys. Thanks! You're helping me see that situation in a whole new light. I'm glad I did include that last part. It IS perfectly natural to express emotions, and it can even be healthy when expressed the right way. I believe I WAS expressing it the right way. I was not directing it toward her. She just happened to be coming into the room where I was breaking down and saw me ... Another thing we never learned as KO's, huh? How to let ourselves feel real and true emotion and not beat ourselves up about it ... ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 3:38 PM Subject: Re: a thought  I agree. Her comforting you when you cry is not you depending on her for emotional validation. it is an opportunity for her to develop empathy. another thought I might add is that if you model good coping (crying is very good under the right circumstances.) she will learn how to manage emotions without feeling the need to pretend, and suppress. one thing about my parents is that they NEVER resolve anything. My dad keeps his opinion to himself, and my nada is in such deep denial and is so self absorbed that she thinks they always agree on everything and claims the " perfect marriage. " when there is something Nada nags him about and he does not want to do it, he does not. her denial protects him. it is soooooo weird. I think he must be the only person in the world with that much will power. conflict resolution was not allowed in our home, everyone is perfectly happy and we have no contention. That is how I became the scapegoat. what was said earlier about validating our children was so right. I have 3 girls (6.5,4.5,2) I find the same principals so valuable. I think even the small things should be validated. " oh, you shouldn't feel that way " " your fine " " I'm not getting involved/going to fight your battles " etc. were constant and daily part of my childhood. even over the smallest things these hurt me a lot. even the smallest hurts and fears should be validated. they are always bigger to a child. Also, I would like to add that it is hardest to be loving when a child does bad things. everyone loves a person on their best behavior.even under the best circumstances, discipline (not punishment) is part of parenting. and like everything else there is a good and better way to do it. what I am working on now in therapy is reacting sooner. what I tend to do is take my frustrations to the point that I cant take it any more and I either shut down emotionally, or I get unnecessarily upset(or both). the key is to intervene on my behalf before I get to either of those points. This is hard for me with the kids because I was never disciplined myself, and also becasue I am terrified to hurt them. Parenting is hard anyway I think. but for those of us who want to do it completely differently that we were raised, it is sometimes not as instinctive as it should be. and hey as has been discussed today I don't really trust my instincts. Meikjn > > > > > I'm not really clear on how to handle some things in the best way. Some days after I talk to nada and am in tears and my three-year-old comes up to me and pats me on the back, telling me, " It's okay, Mommy. It's not your fault, " I really just want to strangle nada and myself for making my little girl feel like she needs to be my comforter (and validator). Days like that I just want to cut off all contact completely because I worry that the unhealthy relationship cycle will continue and will ruin my little girl for life, but my three-year-old loves nada so much ... :-( > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Hi Deanna, I don't think you believe it until it feels safe to believe it. Restricting your opinions probably kept you safe for a long time. I think we forget the effect those kinds of parental responses have--that at one point they were or seemed to be life and death, because we were entirely dependent on this person who was rejecting us for our very existence. It's not just hurtful. Just my theory on it... Take care, Ashana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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