Re: The idea that we signed up for this

[Guest guest]

Additionally, I believe we need to do or use whatever works best for us.

Period.

From my perspective, just because we are KO's doesn't make us victims. I don't

think of myself as a victim. My parental units have issues and are more

challenging than a lot of others. Given that my health is now in serious

jeopardy bc of their doings AND how I handled them, it's even more important for

me to adjust my handling of their behavior now... bc they're certainly not going

to change. Victims don't do that.

We're looking for resolve; seeking out a change of our situation for the better.

In my opinion, being on here proves we are not victims. And, we didn't sign up

for this.

>

> Someone suggested this to me the other day, and it's something I've heard

before; Wayne Dyer has talked about it. It's the idea that before we were born,

we decided what family we would be born into and what experience we would have.

This would have all been in order to learn to deal with adversity, to help our

souls make spiritual progress.

>

> Wayne Dyer had said that *even if it's not true,* deciding to look at it that

way offers us a perspective shift, one which moves us out of the victim role.

>

> I hope nobody takes offense at this idea. I'm just throwing it out there.

I'm not saying I believe it, but it does offer a different way to look at

things. If you think about it, it feels more empowering to imagine that we made

this choice because we wanted the opportunity to survive and thrive despite the

adversity.

>

> Have any of you ever thought about that idea? What do you think of it?

>

> Deanna

>

[Guest guest]

That's a good point, echobabe. Fear, rage, and anxiety don't help anyone

spiritually. Why would BP's choose that kind of life for themselves in order to

make spiritual progress? 

________________________________

And no, I don't think my nada 'chose' the life she wanted to be in either--full

of fear and rage, panic and misery, struggling to be on top of her family as if

they were mortal enemies. Yes, Dyer and the rest with this theory have their

heads far up their own butt, IMHO.

[Guest guest]

That's a good point, echobabe. Fear, rage, and anxiety don't help anyone

spiritually. Why would BP's choose that kind of life for themselves in order to

make spiritual progress? 

________________________________

And no, I don't think my nada 'chose' the life she wanted to be in either--full

of fear and rage, panic and misery, struggling to be on top of her family as if

they were mortal enemies. Yes, Dyer and the rest with this theory have their

heads far up their own butt, IMHO.

[Guest guest]

That's a good point, echobabe. Fear, rage, and anxiety don't help anyone

spiritually. Why would BP's choose that kind of life for themselves in order to

make spiritual progress? 

________________________________

And no, I don't think my nada 'chose' the life she wanted to be in either--full

of fear and rage, panic and misery, struggling to be on top of her family as if

they were mortal enemies. Yes, Dyer and the rest with this theory have their

heads far up their own butt, IMHO.

[Guest guest]

As long as I believed I asked for or deserved a pd parent who was unable to

nurture or care for me, I could continue to distance myself from my pain, and I

think that's why so many of those books sell. Understanding I am worthy of love

immediately opens the door to the pain of not having had it when I needed it the

most.

You know...

I think it also gives people an excuse to feel superior or " special. " " I'm a

more ambitious soul here for growth, and that's why I signed on for this, " kind

of thing. " God had a special purpose in all this...He has a plan for me...I'm

more evolved and that's why I'm going through this, to become yet more evolved. "

If you're abused by a PD parent, you have trouble perceiving yourself as exactly

the same as anybody else anyway. You're either wayyy better than everybody else

growing up (when nada needed an egoboo), or you're wayyy worse (when she needed

a punching bag).

It would be nice if this kind of thinking were true, but what I've found is that

past a certain amount, adversity is no longer strengthening. It's just hurtful,

painful, and destructive, and leaves you in a permanently worse position. But

this kind of language makes people feel powerful, it makes people feel better,

and better about themselves, so yeah...it sells.

--

[Guest guest]

As long as I believed I asked for or deserved a pd parent who was unable to

nurture or care for me, I could continue to distance myself from my pain, and I

think that's why so many of those books sell. Understanding I am worthy of love

immediately opens the door to the pain of not having had it when I needed it the

most.

You know...

I think it also gives people an excuse to feel superior or " special. " " I'm a

more ambitious soul here for growth, and that's why I signed on for this, " kind

of thing. " God had a special purpose in all this...He has a plan for me...I'm

more evolved and that's why I'm going through this, to become yet more evolved. "

If you're abused by a PD parent, you have trouble perceiving yourself as exactly

the same as anybody else anyway. You're either wayyy better than everybody else

growing up (when nada needed an egoboo), or you're wayyy worse (when she needed

a punching bag).

It would be nice if this kind of thinking were true, but what I've found is that

past a certain amount, adversity is no longer strengthening. It's just hurtful,

painful, and destructive, and leaves you in a permanently worse position. But

this kind of language makes people feel powerful, it makes people feel better,

and better about themselves, so yeah...it sells.

--

[Guest guest]

As long as I believed I asked for or deserved a pd parent who was unable to

nurture or care for me, I could continue to distance myself from my pain, and I

think that's why so many of those books sell. Understanding I am worthy of love

immediately opens the door to the pain of not having had it when I needed it the

most.

You know...

I think it also gives people an excuse to feel superior or " special. " " I'm a

more ambitious soul here for growth, and that's why I signed on for this, " kind

of thing. " God had a special purpose in all this...He has a plan for me...I'm

more evolved and that's why I'm going through this, to become yet more evolved. "

If you're abused by a PD parent, you have trouble perceiving yourself as exactly

the same as anybody else anyway. You're either wayyy better than everybody else

growing up (when nada needed an egoboo), or you're wayyy worse (when she needed

a punching bag).

It would be nice if this kind of thinking were true, but what I've found is that

past a certain amount, adversity is no longer strengthening. It's just hurtful,

painful, and destructive, and leaves you in a permanently worse position. But

this kind of language makes people feel powerful, it makes people feel better,

and better about themselves, so yeah...it sells.

--

[Guest guest]

" Being a baby in the hands of a psychopathic woman, can there be any greater

hell? My answer is no. "

Well said, Millicent, well said!

I was told/sold that idea of selecting one's family prior to birth, in order to

facilitate spiritual growth, for years by a " spiritual healer " who graduated

from the Barbara Brennan School of Healing.

My perception is that people who put forth that idea are dismissing and

invalidating painful realities. I see it as a cop-out to the question of " Why

in the WORLD did this awfulness happen to me and my family???? " Convenient

cop-out, and I think it's also a bit of " blaming the victim " too. It also

triggers me through the darned roof, too! I think people who say such things are

CLUELESS. It's a convenient and, apparently, lucrative thing to assert for the

authors of pop-psychology self-help books. I walk into the local bookstore and

see the shelves loaded with the latest " groovy self-help and self-actualization "

authors spouting the same old generalities and platitudes, recycling them over,

and over, and over....I consider that " magical thinking fluff " as just band-aids

that sell hope....holding out the promise of some golden day of magical/total

healing that will never come. But, if I buy the next book that comes out

......maybe I'll get that magical healing, if not, there'll always be another

book, and another, and another...to keep the game going of, IMO, denying and

repressing one's pain and memories of the reality that was experienced.

> > > >

> > > > Someone suggested this to me the other day, and it's something I've

> > > heard before; Wayne Dyer has talked about it. It's the idea that before

> > we

> > > were born, we decided what family we would be born into and what

> > experience

> > > we would have. This would have all been in order to learn to deal with

> > > adversity, to help our souls make spiritual progress.

> > > >

> > > > Wayne Dyer had said that *even if it's not true,* deciding to look at

> > it

> > > that way offers us a perspective shift, one which moves us out of the

> > > victim role.

> > > >

> > > > I hope nobody takes offense at this idea. I'm just throwing it out

> > > there. I'm not saying I believe it, but it does offer a different way to

> > > look at things. If you think about it, it feels more empowering to

> > imagine

> > > that we made this choice because we wanted the opportunity to survive and

> > > thrive despite the adversity.

> > > >

> > > > Have any of you ever thought about that idea? What do you think of it?

> > > >

> > > > Deanna

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

" Being a baby in the hands of a psychopathic woman, can there be any greater

hell? My answer is no. "

Well said, Millicent, well said!

I was told/sold that idea of selecting one's family prior to birth, in order to

facilitate spiritual growth, for years by a " spiritual healer " who graduated

from the Barbara Brennan School of Healing.

My perception is that people who put forth that idea are dismissing and

invalidating painful realities. I see it as a cop-out to the question of " Why

in the WORLD did this awfulness happen to me and my family???? " Convenient

cop-out, and I think it's also a bit of " blaming the victim " too. It also

triggers me through the darned roof, too! I think people who say such things are

CLUELESS. It's a convenient and, apparently, lucrative thing to assert for the

authors of pop-psychology self-help books. I walk into the local bookstore and

see the shelves loaded with the latest " groovy self-help and self-actualization "

authors spouting the same old generalities and platitudes, recycling them over,

and over, and over....I consider that " magical thinking fluff " as just band-aids

that sell hope....holding out the promise of some golden day of magical/total

healing that will never come. But, if I buy the next book that comes out

......maybe I'll get that magical healing, if not, there'll always be another

book, and another, and another...to keep the game going of, IMO, denying and

repressing one's pain and memories of the reality that was experienced.

> > > >

> > > > Someone suggested this to me the other day, and it's something I've

> > > heard before; Wayne Dyer has talked about it. It's the idea that before

> > we

> > > were born, we decided what family we would be born into and what

> > experience

> > > we would have. This would have all been in order to learn to deal with

> > > adversity, to help our souls make spiritual progress.

> > > >

> > > > Wayne Dyer had said that *even if it's not true,* deciding to look at

> > it

> > > that way offers us a perspective shift, one which moves us out of the

> > > victim role.

> > > >

> > > > I hope nobody takes offense at this idea. I'm just throwing it out

> > > there. I'm not saying I believe it, but it does offer a different way to

> > > look at things. If you think about it, it feels more empowering to

> > imagine

> > > that we made this choice because we wanted the opportunity to survive and

> > > thrive despite the adversity.

> > > >

> > > > Have any of you ever thought about that idea? What do you think of it?

> > > >

> > > > Deanna

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Great post, ,

You really put the crux of the issues of pseudo-self help in a nutshell!

The whole concept of fast-track soul evolution through pain and misery

not only distances us from our own emotions, pain, and grief, but also

allows PDs to distance themselves from the cruelty and immorality of their

actions.

Your point about feeling special because one signed up for the pain of

ambitious spiritual evolution is stellar!

This is a powerful means of denial and self-deception.

In the mind of PDs such beliefs become justification for really,

really, bad behavior, and is another facet of the difficult and confusing

issue of splitting dung/golden, faced by Kos.

My own Nada was kindest to me, when I acknowledged that I was

dung-being-refined by my chosen and self appointed teacher/punisher (her,)

and that this acknowledgement made me special.

I could become " Golden Child, " by acknowledging to her that I knew I

was Dung Child (?), and deserving of whatever mal-treatment she chose to

visit upon me.

I'm willing to bet the farm, that this is a common form of BPD

gas-lighting.

This prebirth - rebirth decision cr*p is just another form of " you asked

for it, " and " look at what you made me do! " justification for bad

behavior.

I often heard this mind-twisting nonsense from my Nada after she had

brutalized me, either physically or emotionally.

It would often be accompanied with its equally evil twin, " now you know

what it feels like, " implying that I must have done something evil in a

past life, and am now being punished by Karma, thus making restitution to

" The Universe " for my unremembered past wrong-doings.

She, however was the real martyr in the whole convoluted situation,

because The Universe had placed her in the role of my

" Mother/mentor/teacher/punisher, " and it " hurt her to have to correct (me)

than it did (me) to be corrected. "

There is also an ugly triplet to this mess, that implies that anything

positive that I did, was also restitution to The Universe for some atrocity

that I had committed in a past life. I liked working with children thus I

must have been cruel to them in a past incarnation.

Religion, or rather " religiosity, " of any kind, seems to offer PDs

endless opportunity and justification for Bad Behavior.

What I find irrevocably evil in these convoluted actions, is that they

are intended manipulate and control, to crush the spirit, and destroy a

childs pathways to seeking aspects of The Divine within themselves.

I don't think my Nada really believed this cr*p anymore than she

believed anything else.

Her religious beliefs were as mercurial as the wind. She espoused whatever

she believed would fit her audience, or give her control over the

situation, claiming Christianity, but giving it whatever spin New-Age,

Ancient Jewish, etc. that would give her the upper hand, or justify her

actions.

My Nada knew better than to spout this crazy crap in front of my father,

or other family members, but used it mostly when we were alone.

Recognizing that my father, and other foo would *not* have supported

this B.S., is in part what saved me from total self annihilation, however,

the ugliness of the implications did terrible damage to my concept of self,

and self worth.

Thank again , for such a thought provoking and illuminating post !

Sunspot

> **

>

>

> As long as I believed I asked for or deserved a pd parent who was unable

> to nurture or care for me, I could continue to distance myself from my

> pain, and I think that's why so many of those books sell. Understanding I

> am worthy of love immediately opens the door to the pain of not having had

> it when I needed it the most.

>

> You know...

>

> I think it also gives people an excuse to feel superior or " special. " " I'm

> a more ambitious soul here for growth, and that's why I signed on for

> this, " kind of thing. " God had a special purpose in all this...He has a

> plan for me...I'm more evolved and that's why I'm going through this, to

> become yet more evolved. "

>

> If you're abused by a PD parent, you have trouble perceiving yourself as

> exactly the same as anybody else anyway. You're either wayyy better than

> everybody else growing up (when nada needed an egoboo), or you're wayyy

> worse (when she needed a punching bag).

>

> It would be nice if this kind of thinking were true, but what I've found

> is that past a certain amount, adversity is no longer strengthening. It's

> just hurtful, painful, and destructive, and leaves you in a permanently

> worse position. But this kind of language makes people feel powerful, it

> makes people feel better, and better about themselves, so yeah...it sells.

>

> --

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Great post, ,

You really put the crux of the issues of pseudo-self help in a nutshell!

The whole concept of fast-track soul evolution through pain and misery

not only distances us from our own emotions, pain, and grief, but also

allows PDs to distance themselves from the cruelty and immorality of their

actions.

Your point about feeling special because one signed up for the pain of

ambitious spiritual evolution is stellar!

This is a powerful means of denial and self-deception.

In the mind of PDs such beliefs become justification for really,

really, bad behavior, and is another facet of the difficult and confusing

issue of splitting dung/golden, faced by Kos.

My own Nada was kindest to me, when I acknowledged that I was

dung-being-refined by my chosen and self appointed teacher/punisher (her,)

and that this acknowledgement made me special.

I could become " Golden Child, " by acknowledging to her that I knew I

was Dung Child (?), and deserving of whatever mal-treatment she chose to

visit upon me.

I'm willing to bet the farm, that this is a common form of BPD

gas-lighting.

This prebirth - rebirth decision cr*p is just another form of " you asked

for it, " and " look at what you made me do! " justification for bad

behavior.

I often heard this mind-twisting nonsense from my Nada after she had

brutalized me, either physically or emotionally.

It would often be accompanied with its equally evil twin, " now you know

what it feels like, " implying that I must have done something evil in a

past life, and am now being punished by Karma, thus making restitution to

" The Universe " for my unremembered past wrong-doings.

She, however was the real martyr in the whole convoluted situation,

because The Universe had placed her in the role of my

" Mother/mentor/teacher/punisher, " and it " hurt her to have to correct (me)

than it did (me) to be corrected. "

There is also an ugly triplet to this mess, that implies that anything

positive that I did, was also restitution to The Universe for some atrocity

that I had committed in a past life. I liked working with children thus I

must have been cruel to them in a past incarnation.

Religion, or rather " religiosity, " of any kind, seems to offer PDs

endless opportunity and justification for Bad Behavior.

What I find irrevocably evil in these convoluted actions, is that they

are intended manipulate and control, to crush the spirit, and destroy a

childs pathways to seeking aspects of The Divine within themselves.

I don't think my Nada really believed this cr*p anymore than she

believed anything else.

Her religious beliefs were as mercurial as the wind. She espoused whatever

she believed would fit her audience, or give her control over the

situation, claiming Christianity, but giving it whatever spin New-Age,

Ancient Jewish, etc. that would give her the upper hand, or justify her

actions.

My Nada knew better than to spout this crazy crap in front of my father,

or other family members, but used it mostly when we were alone.

Recognizing that my father, and other foo would *not* have supported

this B.S., is in part what saved me from total self annihilation, however,

the ugliness of the implications did terrible damage to my concept of self,

and self worth.

Thank again , for such a thought provoking and illuminating post !

Sunspot

> **

>

>

> As long as I believed I asked for or deserved a pd parent who was unable

> to nurture or care for me, I could continue to distance myself from my

> pain, and I think that's why so many of those books sell. Understanding I

> am worthy of love immediately opens the door to the pain of not having had

> it when I needed it the most.

>

> You know...

>

> I think it also gives people an excuse to feel superior or " special. " " I'm

> a more ambitious soul here for growth, and that's why I signed on for

> this, " kind of thing. " God had a special purpose in all this...He has a

> plan for me...I'm more evolved and that's why I'm going through this, to

> become yet more evolved. "

>

> If you're abused by a PD parent, you have trouble perceiving yourself as

> exactly the same as anybody else anyway. You're either wayyy better than

> everybody else growing up (when nada needed an egoboo), or you're wayyy

> worse (when she needed a punching bag).

>

> It would be nice if this kind of thinking were true, but what I've found

> is that past a certain amount, adversity is no longer strengthening. It's

> just hurtful, painful, and destructive, and leaves you in a permanently

> worse position. But this kind of language makes people feel powerful, it

> makes people feel better, and better about themselves, so yeah...it sells.

>

> --

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Great post, ,

You really put the crux of the issues of pseudo-self help in a nutshell!

The whole concept of fast-track soul evolution through pain and misery

not only distances us from our own emotions, pain, and grief, but also

allows PDs to distance themselves from the cruelty and immorality of their

actions.

Your point about feeling special because one signed up for the pain of

ambitious spiritual evolution is stellar!

This is a powerful means of denial and self-deception.

In the mind of PDs such beliefs become justification for really,

really, bad behavior, and is another facet of the difficult and confusing

issue of splitting dung/golden, faced by Kos.

My own Nada was kindest to me, when I acknowledged that I was

dung-being-refined by my chosen and self appointed teacher/punisher (her,)

and that this acknowledgement made me special.

I could become " Golden Child, " by acknowledging to her that I knew I

was Dung Child (?), and deserving of whatever mal-treatment she chose to

visit upon me.

I'm willing to bet the farm, that this is a common form of BPD

gas-lighting.

This prebirth - rebirth decision cr*p is just another form of " you asked

for it, " and " look at what you made me do! " justification for bad

behavior.

I often heard this mind-twisting nonsense from my Nada after she had

brutalized me, either physically or emotionally.

It would often be accompanied with its equally evil twin, " now you know

what it feels like, " implying that I must have done something evil in a

past life, and am now being punished by Karma, thus making restitution to

" The Universe " for my unremembered past wrong-doings.

She, however was the real martyr in the whole convoluted situation,

because The Universe had placed her in the role of my

" Mother/mentor/teacher/punisher, " and it " hurt her to have to correct (me)

than it did (me) to be corrected. "

There is also an ugly triplet to this mess, that implies that anything

positive that I did, was also restitution to The Universe for some atrocity

that I had committed in a past life. I liked working with children thus I

must have been cruel to them in a past incarnation.

Religion, or rather " religiosity, " of any kind, seems to offer PDs

endless opportunity and justification for Bad Behavior.

What I find irrevocably evil in these convoluted actions, is that they

are intended manipulate and control, to crush the spirit, and destroy a

childs pathways to seeking aspects of The Divine within themselves.

I don't think my Nada really believed this cr*p anymore than she

believed anything else.

Her religious beliefs were as mercurial as the wind. She espoused whatever

she believed would fit her audience, or give her control over the

situation, claiming Christianity, but giving it whatever spin New-Age,

Ancient Jewish, etc. that would give her the upper hand, or justify her

actions.

My Nada knew better than to spout this crazy crap in front of my father,

or other family members, but used it mostly when we were alone.

Recognizing that my father, and other foo would *not* have supported

this B.S., is in part what saved me from total self annihilation, however,

the ugliness of the implications did terrible damage to my concept of self,

and self worth.

Thank again , for such a thought provoking and illuminating post !

Sunspot

> **

>

>

> As long as I believed I asked for or deserved a pd parent who was unable

> to nurture or care for me, I could continue to distance myself from my

> pain, and I think that's why so many of those books sell. Understanding I

> am worthy of love immediately opens the door to the pain of not having had

> it when I needed it the most.

>

> You know...

>

> I think it also gives people an excuse to feel superior or " special. " " I'm

> a more ambitious soul here for growth, and that's why I signed on for

> this, " kind of thing. " God had a special purpose in all this...He has a

> plan for me...I'm more evolved and that's why I'm going through this, to

> become yet more evolved. "

>

> If you're abused by a PD parent, you have trouble perceiving yourself as

> exactly the same as anybody else anyway. You're either wayyy better than

> everybody else growing up (when nada needed an egoboo), or you're wayyy

> worse (when she needed a punching bag).

>

> It would be nice if this kind of thinking were true, but what I've found

> is that past a certain amount, adversity is no longer strengthening. It's

> just hurtful, painful, and destructive, and leaves you in a permanently

> worse position. But this kind of language makes people feel powerful, it

> makes people feel better, and better about themselves, so yeah...it sells.

>

> --

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree: both and Sunspot are framing my objections to this particular

philosophy very clearly and succinctly.

Me personally, I think that we human beings *crave* to understand the reasons

that things happen, particularly bad things. It gives us a sense of control of

our existence and our destiny if we believe we can understand *why* this or that

bad thing happens to us, because then we can choose to avoid the path that leads

to a bad outcome.

If we believe we understand *why* something happens, it gives us the illusion of

control over it.

Its very, very difficult for human beings to tolerate the idea of Chaos: the

concept that " bad things simply happen sometimes and there is nothing you can do

to avoid it or prevent it. " (Which is why earthquakes and other chaotic events

are so terrifying.)

As tiny, dependent children, that concept is the same thing as death. Our

child-minds cannot contain or tolerate the idea of Chaos; we are hardwired to

not be able to accept that our very existence is so precarious, because that

would plunge the tiny child into suicidal despair, and that is counter-survival

for the species. So instead, we utilize denial and we utilize the idea that

*we are the cause of the bad thing* to give us the illusion of control over it.

The fact that our own mother is unreliable, self-absorbed, unempathetic, weak,

inept, insane, mean, may actually hate us and resent our very existence, and

might at any moment accidentally kill us or just forget we exist and abandon us,

is something that the tiny, dependent child blocks out of conscious thought.

The need to bond with whatever primary caregiver fate has bestowed upon us and

the fear of abandonment is hardwired into us, at a genetic/molecular level. We

need (crave) to bond with our mother, and we need and crave structure as opposed

to chaos: we NEED an explanation for why we are treated badly, so we decide that

its our fault. That means we have the power and the choice to behave better: to

be a better, more pleasing, more lovable child, which gives us the illusion that

we have the power to change the outcome.

So, that's my theory as to why this particular philosophy ( " We choose our

parents before we are born " ) feels right or comforting to a lot of people.

It promotes the illusion that we have control over Chaos, that it can be managed

and tamed and directed toward a good outcome.

-Annie

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > As long as I believed I asked for or deserved a pd parent who was unable

> > to nurture or care for me, I could continue to distance myself from my

> > pain, and I think that's why so many of those books sell. Understanding I

> > am worthy of love immediately opens the door to the pain of not having had

> > it when I needed it the most.

> >

> > You know...

> >

> > I think it also gives people an excuse to feel superior or " special. " " I'm

> > a more ambitious soul here for growth, and that's why I signed on for

> > this, " kind of thing. " God had a special purpose in all this...He has a

> > plan for me...I'm more evolved and that's why I'm going through this, to

> > become yet more evolved. "

> >

> > If you're abused by a PD parent, you have trouble perceiving yourself as

> > exactly the same as anybody else anyway. You're either wayyy better than

> > everybody else growing up (when nada needed an egoboo), or you're wayyy

> > worse (when she needed a punching bag).

> >

> > It would be nice if this kind of thinking were true, but what I've found

> > is that past a certain amount, adversity is no longer strengthening. It's

> > just hurtful, painful, and destructive, and leaves you in a permanently

> > worse position. But this kind of language makes people feel powerful, it

> > makes people feel better, and better about themselves, so yeah...it sells.

> >

> > --

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree: both and Sunspot are framing my objections to this particular

philosophy very clearly and succinctly.

Me personally, I think that we human beings *crave* to understand the reasons

that things happen, particularly bad things. It gives us a sense of control of

our existence and our destiny if we believe we can understand *why* this or that

bad thing happens to us, because then we can choose to avoid the path that leads

to a bad outcome.

If we believe we understand *why* something happens, it gives us the illusion of

control over it.

Its very, very difficult for human beings to tolerate the idea of Chaos: the

concept that " bad things simply happen sometimes and there is nothing you can do

to avoid it or prevent it. " (Which is why earthquakes and other chaotic events

are so terrifying.)

As tiny, dependent children, that concept is the same thing as death. Our

child-minds cannot contain or tolerate the idea of Chaos; we are hardwired to

not be able to accept that our very existence is so precarious, because that

would plunge the tiny child into suicidal despair, and that is counter-survival

for the species. So instead, we utilize denial and we utilize the idea that

*we are the cause of the bad thing* to give us the illusion of control over it.

The fact that our own mother is unreliable, self-absorbed, unempathetic, weak,

inept, insane, mean, may actually hate us and resent our very existence, and

might at any moment accidentally kill us or just forget we exist and abandon us,

is something that the tiny, dependent child blocks out of conscious thought.

The need to bond with whatever primary caregiver fate has bestowed upon us and

the fear of abandonment is hardwired into us, at a genetic/molecular level. We

need (crave) to bond with our mother, and we need and crave structure as opposed

to chaos: we NEED an explanation for why we are treated badly, so we decide that

its our fault. That means we have the power and the choice to behave better: to

be a better, more pleasing, more lovable child, which gives us the illusion that

we have the power to change the outcome.

So, that's my theory as to why this particular philosophy ( " We choose our

parents before we are born " ) feels right or comforting to a lot of people.

It promotes the illusion that we have control over Chaos, that it can be managed

and tamed and directed toward a good outcome.

-Annie

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > As long as I believed I asked for or deserved a pd parent who was unable

> > to nurture or care for me, I could continue to distance myself from my

> > pain, and I think that's why so many of those books sell. Understanding I

> > am worthy of love immediately opens the door to the pain of not having had

> > it when I needed it the most.

> >

> > You know...

> >

> > I think it also gives people an excuse to feel superior or " special. " " I'm

> > a more ambitious soul here for growth, and that's why I signed on for

> > this, " kind of thing. " God had a special purpose in all this...He has a

> > plan for me...I'm more evolved and that's why I'm going through this, to

> > become yet more evolved. "

> >

> > If you're abused by a PD parent, you have trouble perceiving yourself as

> > exactly the same as anybody else anyway. You're either wayyy better than

> > everybody else growing up (when nada needed an egoboo), or you're wayyy

> > worse (when she needed a punching bag).

> >

> > It would be nice if this kind of thinking were true, but what I've found

> > is that past a certain amount, adversity is no longer strengthening. It's

> > just hurtful, painful, and destructive, and leaves you in a permanently

> > worse position. But this kind of language makes people feel powerful, it

> > makes people feel better, and better about themselves, so yeah...it sells.

> >

> > --

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree: both and Sunspot are framing my objections to this particular

philosophy very clearly and succinctly.

Me personally, I think that we human beings *crave* to understand the reasons

that things happen, particularly bad things. It gives us a sense of control of

our existence and our destiny if we believe we can understand *why* this or that

bad thing happens to us, because then we can choose to avoid the path that leads

to a bad outcome.

If we believe we understand *why* something happens, it gives us the illusion of

control over it.

Its very, very difficult for human beings to tolerate the idea of Chaos: the

concept that " bad things simply happen sometimes and there is nothing you can do

to avoid it or prevent it. " (Which is why earthquakes and other chaotic events

are so terrifying.)

As tiny, dependent children, that concept is the same thing as death. Our

child-minds cannot contain or tolerate the idea of Chaos; we are hardwired to

not be able to accept that our very existence is so precarious, because that

would plunge the tiny child into suicidal despair, and that is counter-survival

for the species. So instead, we utilize denial and we utilize the idea that

*we are the cause of the bad thing* to give us the illusion of control over it.

The fact that our own mother is unreliable, self-absorbed, unempathetic, weak,

inept, insane, mean, may actually hate us and resent our very existence, and

might at any moment accidentally kill us or just forget we exist and abandon us,

is something that the tiny, dependent child blocks out of conscious thought.

The need to bond with whatever primary caregiver fate has bestowed upon us and

the fear of abandonment is hardwired into us, at a genetic/molecular level. We

need (crave) to bond with our mother, and we need and crave structure as opposed

to chaos: we NEED an explanation for why we are treated badly, so we decide that

its our fault. That means we have the power and the choice to behave better: to

be a better, more pleasing, more lovable child, which gives us the illusion that

we have the power to change the outcome.

So, that's my theory as to why this particular philosophy ( " We choose our

parents before we are born " ) feels right or comforting to a lot of people.

It promotes the illusion that we have control over Chaos, that it can be managed

and tamed and directed toward a good outcome.

-Annie

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > As long as I believed I asked for or deserved a pd parent who was unable

> > to nurture or care for me, I could continue to distance myself from my

> > pain, and I think that's why so many of those books sell. Understanding I

> > am worthy of love immediately opens the door to the pain of not having had

> > it when I needed it the most.

> >

> > You know...

> >

> > I think it also gives people an excuse to feel superior or " special. " " I'm

> > a more ambitious soul here for growth, and that's why I signed on for

> > this, " kind of thing. " God had a special purpose in all this...He has a

> > plan for me...I'm more evolved and that's why I'm going through this, to

> > become yet more evolved. "

> >

> > If you're abused by a PD parent, you have trouble perceiving yourself as

> > exactly the same as anybody else anyway. You're either wayyy better than

> > everybody else growing up (when nada needed an egoboo), or you're wayyy

> > worse (when she needed a punching bag).

> >

> > It would be nice if this kind of thinking were true, but what I've found

> > is that past a certain amount, adversity is no longer strengthening. It's

> > just hurtful, painful, and destructive, and leaves you in a permanently

> > worse position. But this kind of language makes people feel powerful, it

> > makes people feel better, and better about themselves, so yeah...it sells.

> >

> > --

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have very mixed feelings about it. I've been very involved in the new age

scene for a number of years and I'll tell you this - even the very best most

legitimate psychic I've ever seen wasn't 100% right. So how can we believe

that something as profound as why we are born to the life we are born to can be

absolutely answered by anyone? I'm not saying Wanyne Dyer is wrong, but I also

cannot accept he's right either. Another very talented psychic I consulted

with proposed a very different mechanism, that some souls are literally

hijacked/hoodwinked into being born into families basically to be used. In the

world her guides describe to her it is possible for spiritual hanky panky to go

on before one is even born interfering with the rebirth. A sign of this is when

one person has soul characteristics that are profoundly different and more

positive than their parents and surrounding relatives and basically lives a

servant type role in the family. Is that any more likely to be true than the

first explanation - that we do it for soul growth?

I have no idea what is true....I do have faith in certain things that helps me

get by and through the days. But hell yes I wish I had an explanation and some

justice.

Eliza

>

> Someone suggested this to me the other day, and it's something I've heard

before; Wayne Dyer has talked about it. It's the idea that before we were born,

we decided what family we would be born into and what experience we would have.

This would have all been in order to learn to deal with adversity, to help our

souls make spiritual progress.

>

> Wayne Dyer had said that *even if it's not true,* deciding to look at it that

way offers us a perspective shift, one which moves us out of the victim role.

>

> I hope nobody takes offense at this idea. I'm just throwing it out there.

I'm not saying I believe it, but it does offer a different way to look at

things. If you think about it, it feels more empowering to imagine that we made

this choice because we wanted the opportunity to survive and thrive despite the

adversity.

>

> Have any of you ever thought about that idea? What do you think of it?

>

> Deanna

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much for understanding! I found this cool link today. It's

great.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/LawofAttraction.htm

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 8:36 PM, eliza92@... <

eliza92@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

> I have very mixed feelings about it. I've been very involved in the new

> age scene for a number of years and I'll tell you this - even the very best

> most legitimate psychic I've ever seen wasn't 100% right. So how can we

> believe that something as profound as why we are born to the life we are

> born to can be absolutely answered by anyone? I'm not saying Wanyne Dyer is

> wrong, but I also cannot accept he's right either. Another very talented

> psychic I consulted with proposed a very different mechanism, that some

> souls are literally hijacked/hoodwinked into being born into families

> basically to be used. In the world her guides describe to her it is

> possible for spiritual hanky panky to go on before one is even born

> interfering with the rebirth. A sign of this is when one person has soul

> characteristics that are profoundly different and more positive than their

> parents and surrounding relatives and basically lives a servant type role

> in the family. Is that any more likely to be true than the first

> explanation - that we do it for soul growth?

>

> I have no idea what is true....I do have faith in certain things that

> helps me get by and through the days. But hell yes I wish I had an

> explanation and some justice.

>

> Eliza

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Someone suggested this to me the other day, and it's something I've

> heard before; Wayne Dyer has talked about it. It's the idea that before we

> were born, we decided what family we would be born into and what experience

> we would have. This would have all been in order to learn to deal with

> adversity, to help our souls make spiritual progress.

> >

> > Wayne Dyer had said that *even if it's not true,* deciding to look at it

> that way offers us a perspective shift, one which moves us out of the

> victim role.

> >

> > I hope nobody takes offense at this idea. I'm just throwing it out

> there. I'm not saying I believe it, but it does offer a different way to

> look at things. If you think about it, it feels more empowering to imagine

> that we made this choice because we wanted the opportunity to survive and

> thrive despite the adversity.

> >

> > Have any of you ever thought about that idea? What do you think of it?

> >

> > Deanna

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much for understanding! I found this cool link today. It's

great.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/LawofAttraction.htm

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 8:36 PM, eliza92@... <

eliza92@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

> I have very mixed feelings about it. I've been very involved in the new

> age scene for a number of years and I'll tell you this - even the very best

> most legitimate psychic I've ever seen wasn't 100% right. So how can we

> believe that something as profound as why we are born to the life we are

> born to can be absolutely answered by anyone? I'm not saying Wanyne Dyer is

> wrong, but I also cannot accept he's right either. Another very talented

> psychic I consulted with proposed a very different mechanism, that some

> souls are literally hijacked/hoodwinked into being born into families

> basically to be used. In the world her guides describe to her it is

> possible for spiritual hanky panky to go on before one is even born

> interfering with the rebirth. A sign of this is when one person has soul

> characteristics that are profoundly different and more positive than their

> parents and surrounding relatives and basically lives a servant type role

> in the family. Is that any more likely to be true than the first

> explanation - that we do it for soul growth?

>

> I have no idea what is true....I do have faith in certain things that

> helps me get by and through the days. But hell yes I wish I had an

> explanation and some justice.

>

> Eliza

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Someone suggested this to me the other day, and it's something I've

> heard before; Wayne Dyer has talked about it. It's the idea that before we

> were born, we decided what family we would be born into and what experience

> we would have. This would have all been in order to learn to deal with

> adversity, to help our souls make spiritual progress.

> >

> > Wayne Dyer had said that *even if it's not true,* deciding to look at it

> that way offers us a perspective shift, one which moves us out of the

> victim role.

> >

> > I hope nobody takes offense at this idea. I'm just throwing it out

> there. I'm not saying I believe it, but it does offer a different way to

> look at things. If you think about it, it feels more empowering to imagine

> that we made this choice because we wanted the opportunity to survive and

> thrive despite the adversity.

> >

> > Have any of you ever thought about that idea? What do you think of it?

> >

> > Deanna

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much for understanding! I found this cool link today. It's

great.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/LawofAttraction.htm

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 8:36 PM, eliza92@... <

eliza92@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

> I have very mixed feelings about it. I've been very involved in the new

> age scene for a number of years and I'll tell you this - even the very best

> most legitimate psychic I've ever seen wasn't 100% right. So how can we

> believe that something as profound as why we are born to the life we are

> born to can be absolutely answered by anyone? I'm not saying Wanyne Dyer is

> wrong, but I also cannot accept he's right either. Another very talented

> psychic I consulted with proposed a very different mechanism, that some

> souls are literally hijacked/hoodwinked into being born into families

> basically to be used. In the world her guides describe to her it is

> possible for spiritual hanky panky to go on before one is even born

> interfering with the rebirth. A sign of this is when one person has soul

> characteristics that are profoundly different and more positive than their

> parents and surrounding relatives and basically lives a servant type role

> in the family. Is that any more likely to be true than the first

> explanation - that we do it for soul growth?

>

> I have no idea what is true....I do have faith in certain things that

> helps me get by and through the days. But hell yes I wish I had an

> explanation and some justice.

>

> Eliza

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Someone suggested this to me the other day, and it's something I've

> heard before; Wayne Dyer has talked about it. It's the idea that before we

> were born, we decided what family we would be born into and what experience

> we would have. This would have all been in order to learn to deal with

> adversity, to help our souls make spiritual progress.

> >

> > Wayne Dyer had said that *even if it's not true,* deciding to look at it

> that way offers us a perspective shift, one which moves us out of the

> victim role.

> >

> > I hope nobody takes offense at this idea. I'm just throwing it out

> there. I'm not saying I believe it, but it does offer a different way to

> look at things. If you think about it, it feels more empowering to imagine

> that we made this choice because we wanted the opportunity to survive and

> thrive despite the adversity.

> >

> > Have any of you ever thought about that idea? What do you think of it?

> >

> > Deanna

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Echo I love this part you wrote:

" And no, I don't think my nada 'chose' the life she wanted to be in either--full

of fear and rage, panic and misery, struggling to be on top of her family as if

they were mortal enemies. "

I often think of how hard it must be for my mother and her mother before her to

feel that she must dominate, must control, her children with such force. How

afraid they are! And they control little else other than those close to them.

It is hard to imagine anyone choosing any one of these roles, even dishrag or

absentee dad.

eliza

> >

> > Someone suggested this to me the other day, and it's something I've heard

before; Wayne Dyer has talked about it. It's the idea that before we were born,

we decided what family we would be born into and what experience we would have.

This would have all been in order to learn to deal with adversity, to help our

souls make spiritual progress.

> >

> > Wayne Dyer had said that *even if it's not true,* deciding to look at it

that way offers us a perspective shift, one which moves us out of the victim

role.

> >

> > I hope nobody takes offense at this idea. I'm just throwing it out there.

I'm not saying I believe it, but it does offer a different way to look at

things. If you think about it, it feels more empowering to imagine that we made

this choice because we wanted the opportunity to survive and thrive despite the

adversity.

> >

> > Have any of you ever thought about that idea? What do you think of it?

> >

> > Deanna

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Echo I love this part you wrote:

" And no, I don't think my nada 'chose' the life she wanted to be in either--full

of fear and rage, panic and misery, struggling to be on top of her family as if

they were mortal enemies. "

I often think of how hard it must be for my mother and her mother before her to

feel that she must dominate, must control, her children with such force. How

afraid they are! And they control little else other than those close to them.

It is hard to imagine anyone choosing any one of these roles, even dishrag or

absentee dad.

eliza

> >

> > Someone suggested this to me the other day, and it's something I've heard

before; Wayne Dyer has talked about it. It's the idea that before we were born,

we decided what family we would be born into and what experience we would have.

This would have all been in order to learn to deal with adversity, to help our

souls make spiritual progress.

> >

> > Wayne Dyer had said that *even if it's not true,* deciding to look at it

that way offers us a perspective shift, one which moves us out of the victim

role.

> >

> > I hope nobody takes offense at this idea. I'm just throwing it out there.

I'm not saying I believe it, but it does offer a different way to look at

things. If you think about it, it feels more empowering to imagine that we made

this choice because we wanted the opportunity to survive and thrive despite the

adversity.

> >

> > Have any of you ever thought about that idea? What do you think of it?

> >

> > Deanna

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Echo I love this part you wrote:

" And no, I don't think my nada 'chose' the life she wanted to be in either--full

of fear and rage, panic and misery, struggling to be on top of her family as if

they were mortal enemies. "

I often think of how hard it must be for my mother and her mother before her to

feel that she must dominate, must control, her children with such force. How

afraid they are! And they control little else other than those close to them.

It is hard to imagine anyone choosing any one of these roles, even dishrag or

absentee dad.

eliza

> >

> > Someone suggested this to me the other day, and it's something I've heard

before; Wayne Dyer has talked about it. It's the idea that before we were born,

we decided what family we would be born into and what experience we would have.

This would have all been in order to learn to deal with adversity, to help our

souls make spiritual progress.

> >

> > Wayne Dyer had said that *even if it's not true,* deciding to look at it

that way offers us a perspective shift, one which moves us out of the victim

role.

> >

> > I hope nobody takes offense at this idea. I'm just throwing it out there.

I'm not saying I believe it, but it does offer a different way to look at

things. If you think about it, it feels more empowering to imagine that we made

this choice because we wanted the opportunity to survive and thrive despite the

adversity.

> >

> > Have any of you ever thought about that idea? What do you think of it?

> >

> > Deanna

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I just skimmed so far but interesting link, thanks Millicent. I too have been

frustrated with how the law of attraction is presented and used. I will say

however there is a level of reality to it that I've seen for myself BUT it is

not a simple matter of believe it and it will appear. I probably believe enough

things to make a true skeptic's hair turn purple, but I try to always be willing

to test and question everything.

This thread has been really interesting to me because it's the first time I

think I've ever heard of new age spiritual beliefs being used by a nada against

her kids. Usually it's the Christian " honor thy father and mother " . Now they

can say we CHOSE them as parents. I guess whatever belief system is in the mix

they'll find a way to work it.

eliza

> > >

> > > Someone suggested this to me the other day, and it's something I've

> > heard before; Wayne Dyer has talked about it. It's the idea that before we

> > were born, we decided what family we would be born into and what experience

> > we would have. This would have all been in order to learn to deal with

> > adversity, to help our souls make spiritual progress.

> > >

> > > Wayne Dyer had said that *even if it's not true,* deciding to look at it

> > that way offers us a perspective shift, one which moves us out of the

> > victim role.

> > >

> > > I hope nobody takes offense at this idea. I'm just throwing it out

> > there. I'm not saying I believe it, but it does offer a different way to

> > look at things. If you think about it, it feels more empowering to imagine

> > that we made this choice because we wanted the opportunity to survive and

> > thrive despite the adversity.

> > >

> > > Have any of you ever thought about that idea? What do you think of it?

> > >

> > > Deanna

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I just skimmed so far but interesting link, thanks Millicent. I too have been

frustrated with how the law of attraction is presented and used. I will say

however there is a level of reality to it that I've seen for myself BUT it is

not a simple matter of believe it and it will appear. I probably believe enough

things to make a true skeptic's hair turn purple, but I try to always be willing

to test and question everything.

This thread has been really interesting to me because it's the first time I

think I've ever heard of new age spiritual beliefs being used by a nada against

her kids. Usually it's the Christian " honor thy father and mother " . Now they

can say we CHOSE them as parents. I guess whatever belief system is in the mix

they'll find a way to work it.

eliza

> > >

> > > Someone suggested this to me the other day, and it's something I've

> > heard before; Wayne Dyer has talked about it. It's the idea that before we

> > were born, we decided what family we would be born into and what experience

> > we would have. This would have all been in order to learn to deal with

> > adversity, to help our souls make spiritual progress.

> > >

> > > Wayne Dyer had said that *even if it's not true,* deciding to look at it

> > that way offers us a perspective shift, one which moves us out of the

> > victim role.

> > >

> > > I hope nobody takes offense at this idea. I'm just throwing it out

> > there. I'm not saying I believe it, but it does offer a different way to

> > look at things. If you think about it, it feels more empowering to imagine

> > that we made this choice because we wanted the opportunity to survive and

> > thrive despite the adversity.

> > >

> > > Have any of you ever thought about that idea? What do you think of it?

> > >

> > > Deanna

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I just skimmed so far but interesting link, thanks Millicent. I too have been

frustrated with how the law of attraction is presented and used. I will say

however there is a level of reality to it that I've seen for myself BUT it is

not a simple matter of believe it and it will appear. I probably believe enough

things to make a true skeptic's hair turn purple, but I try to always be willing

to test and question everything.

This thread has been really interesting to me because it's the first time I

think I've ever heard of new age spiritual beliefs being used by a nada against

her kids. Usually it's the Christian " honor thy father and mother " . Now they

can say we CHOSE them as parents. I guess whatever belief system is in the mix

they'll find a way to work it.

eliza

> > >

> > > Someone suggested this to me the other day, and it's something I've

> > heard before; Wayne Dyer has talked about it. It's the idea that before we

> > were born, we decided what family we would be born into and what experience

> > we would have. This would have all been in order to learn to deal with

> > adversity, to help our souls make spiritual progress.

> > >

> > > Wayne Dyer had said that *even if it's not true,* deciding to look at it

> > that way offers us a perspective shift, one which moves us out of the

> > victim role.

> > >

> > > I hope nobody takes offense at this idea. I'm just throwing it out

> > there. I'm not saying I believe it, but it does offer a different way to

> > look at things. If you think about it, it feels more empowering to imagine

> > that we made this choice because we wanted the opportunity to survive and

> > thrive despite the adversity.

> > >

> > > Have any of you ever thought about that idea? What do you think of it?

> > >

> > > Deanna

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>