Guest guest Posted October 31, 2001 Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 Here is my take on this: AA tells people that AA is the only solution. It's either AA, deaths, jails, or institions. Controlled studies show that people who work 12-step programs relapse just as much as people who recieve no treatment at all. There is no evidence that the steps and all the god mumbo jumbo hocus pocus bullshit does a damn thing. The steps were taken from a religious movement and were used to smash the ego of rich, white, powerful males. Many of us need to build are ego and self esteem not smash it. I would say that people who find sobriety through AA do it with the help of group support and despite the hurtful steps. Thats if they can get past all of the dogma and prostelytizing. The chapter to the agnostic basically tells non believing people " you might not believe now, but you will " . And please tell me what the hell is this " doorknob " bullshit. If AA really cared about helping people with Alchohol problems then they would tell people who do not feel comfortable with the AA " religion " that there are groups that offer secular support not dependent upon doorknobs or steps. Check out SOS, RR, SMART, LSR, they teach people to take responsibility for their alcohol dependence, not lay it on some imaginary deity, not to mention that the majority of people recover on their own. No one is totally powerless, and there are many ways to recover. It sure would be nice if AA were a place where you could get friendly group support and still be an individual. How many people does AA hurt by telling them that if they don't like AA that they should turn their face to the wall and die. For doorknobs sake, tell the truth. And there is certainly no prove of god or anything spiritual. For these reasons and others I believe that AA harms far more people than they help. And if you stayed sober for seven years, give yourself some credit. Group support may have helped, but you did it, not doorknob. Open your eyes and see past the cult. J --- kahn_troll@... wrote: > > > Dear Kay: > > I can't do AA and I just joined this list. It > doesn't hurt me > > or require me to do anything. It's not hurting me > or killing me. > > If someone drinks themselves to death, it's not > AA's, this list's, > > the fault of you or of me. It's their choice, you > and I might not > agree > > with it, but it is ultimately up to each > individual what to do. > > Yes it is up to each individual. AA teaches personal > responsibility > for one's alcoholism and the problems it has caused. > However when > someone new to sobriety comes along, or someone is > just not getting > AA, and there are voices like the ones on this list > telling people > that sure its okay for them to go ahead and drink > and AA is wrong, > what sort of option does that leave them? What kind > of hope or reason > is there in that? > > > also should be left up to the individual what to > do about a drinking > > problem, if they feel inclined to do so. You can > use the AA > philosophy > > of " take what you want and leave the rest " with > this forum. Or, if > you > > don't like it at all, don't take anything and > leave everything. > > I have never been one to accept smorgasborg AA. The > program is a > complete system for alcoholics to recover. You can't > take just the > parts of it you like and leave the rest. That > philosophy you refer to > is one of the bad sayings of AA. Its what I call > trashcan AA. There > are a lot of people in AA who never know the > benefits of the program > because they just dont try it they way it is layed > out in the big > book. As for this forum, it is impossible to accept > such rresponsible > opinions as I have found here. > > There are > > no steps here required > > Gee how convenient for the lazy and impatient! There > is nothing at > all required!!! It seems to me that thre are a few > commonly held > beliefs here. I am simply objecting to this, and I > am being met with > a lot of resistance. Don't fool yourself. There are > things required > of you no matter where you go especially if you want > to join a group. > > and just as it is up to the individual to determine > > if he or she is an alcoholic, so it is up to the > individual to > determine if > > they are happy or the opposite of a dry drunk. > > I suppose you would also tell me to take my own > inventory. I got some > bad news for you. Anyone who doesn't take inventory > of other human > beings may as well be wearing a blindfold. It is > obvious to me that > there is much resentment and misunderstanding on > this list also some > wierd sort of fanaticism I haven't quite figured out > yet. > > As for moderate drinking, > > it might be the lesser of two evils if someone is > so put off by the > philosophy > > if you will of the 12-steps and chooses to take > their own life > because they > > are not " constitutionally capable. " > > What the hell are you saying here? You are saying in > effect that > people who are not willing to make a change of mind > and lifestyle for > some 'philosophical' differences would be better off > committing > suicide!!! > > As far as AA being a doctrine, that's not > > a bad word, I looked it up, it's from doctor, it > means a teaching > or something > > taught. And you'll have to agree that AA teaches, > doesn't it? So, > the > > 12-steps > > are a sort of doctrine aimed at directing someone > to a more > spiritual life in > > the > > absence of alcohol, right? Well, what's wrong > with that? > > Yeah! What's wrong with that? What's wrong with AA > teaching people > about alcoholism and recovering from it? Oh I > forgot. You don't want > anyone to require anything of you. > > Nothing. What's > > wrong with people objecting to it? Really, > nothing. If someone > thinks that > > AA is not for him or her, that's okay, too, right? > > > You know what. You are probably right but they > always come crying > back to meetings when they fall. AA is proven to > help alcoholics. The > denial and resistence to treatment of alcoholics is > unbelievable. > > And for many AA > > exacerbates the original problem by complicating > it with issues of > > supernatural stuff, no disrespect intended. > That's my primary > objection to > > AA, I don't disregard the fact that it supports > people initially in > their > > decision to stop or moderate drinking, I object to > the tacit > requirements of > > conformity in belief that are voiced at every > single meeting. > > Hey wait a minute! No one is forcing you to conform. > Why not speak > your own voice at meetings. Just because everyone > else might be doing > it (and I know what you are talking about) doesn't > mean you have to > sit there and mimick the others. Just like the other > things you say > are up to the individual. If you showed up at a > meeting and said the > things you want maybe you would be helping to make a > more interesting > meeting. Ever think of that? > > AA absolutely does not support people's decision to > moderate > drinking. As for the spriitual stuff, you should > read We Agnostics in > the big book. It shows clearly how people can throw > the baby out with > the bathwater so to speak. > > It overlooks > > the primary reason a person gets drunk or picks up > the first drink, > because > > they decide to and then they do it. > > Of course this is the reason they drink. It is > exactly the reason > anybody does anything. They just do it, but... > > It does not have anything to do with the > > moral or spiritual quality of that person. > > ...oh yes it does. Why would someone in their right > mind who has had > a history of abusive or alcoholic drinking start > drinking again? AA > has some very apt explanations for this. It is > because of a spiritual > dilemna. It is a form of insanity. There is an > implicit lack of self- > respect in this action. What less is this than a > moral and a > spiritual problem? > > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2001 Report Share Posted October 31, 2001 Here is my take on this: AA tells people that AA is the only solution. It's either AA, deaths, jails, or institions. Controlled studies show that people who work 12-step programs relapse just as much as people who recieve no treatment at all. There is no evidence that the steps and all the god mumbo jumbo hocus pocus bullshit does a damn thing. The steps were taken from a religious movement and were used to smash the ego of rich, white, powerful males. Many of us need to build are ego and self esteem not smash it. I would say that people who find sobriety through AA do it with the help of group support and despite the hurtful steps. Thats if they can get past all of the dogma and prostelytizing. The chapter to the agnostic basically tells non believing people " you might not believe now, but you will " . And please tell me what the hell is this " doorknob " bullshit. If AA really cared about helping people with Alchohol problems then they would tell people who do not feel comfortable with the AA " religion " that there are groups that offer secular support not dependent upon doorknobs or steps. Check out SOS, RR, SMART, LSR, they teach people to take responsibility for their alcohol dependence, not lay it on some imaginary deity, not to mention that the majority of people recover on their own. No one is totally powerless, and there are many ways to recover. It sure would be nice if AA were a place where you could get friendly group support and still be an individual. How many people does AA hurt by telling them that if they don't like AA that they should turn their face to the wall and die. For doorknobs sake, tell the truth. And there is certainly no prove of god or anything spiritual. For these reasons and others I believe that AA harms far more people than they help. And if you stayed sober for seven years, give yourself some credit. Group support may have helped, but you did it, not doorknob. Open your eyes and see past the cult. J --- kahn_troll@... wrote: > > > Dear Kay: > > I can't do AA and I just joined this list. It > doesn't hurt me > > or require me to do anything. It's not hurting me > or killing me. > > If someone drinks themselves to death, it's not > AA's, this list's, > > the fault of you or of me. It's their choice, you > and I might not > agree > > with it, but it is ultimately up to each > individual what to do. > > Yes it is up to each individual. AA teaches personal > responsibility > for one's alcoholism and the problems it has caused. > However when > someone new to sobriety comes along, or someone is > just not getting > AA, and there are voices like the ones on this list > telling people > that sure its okay for them to go ahead and drink > and AA is wrong, > what sort of option does that leave them? What kind > of hope or reason > is there in that? > > > also should be left up to the individual what to > do about a drinking > > problem, if they feel inclined to do so. You can > use the AA > philosophy > > of " take what you want and leave the rest " with > this forum. Or, if > you > > don't like it at all, don't take anything and > leave everything. > > I have never been one to accept smorgasborg AA. The > program is a > complete system for alcoholics to recover. You can't > take just the > parts of it you like and leave the rest. That > philosophy you refer to > is one of the bad sayings of AA. Its what I call > trashcan AA. There > are a lot of people in AA who never know the > benefits of the program > because they just dont try it they way it is layed > out in the big > book. As for this forum, it is impossible to accept > such rresponsible > opinions as I have found here. > > There are > > no steps here required > > Gee how convenient for the lazy and impatient! There > is nothing at > all required!!! It seems to me that thre are a few > commonly held > beliefs here. I am simply objecting to this, and I > am being met with > a lot of resistance. Don't fool yourself. There are > things required > of you no matter where you go especially if you want > to join a group. > > and just as it is up to the individual to determine > > if he or she is an alcoholic, so it is up to the > individual to > determine if > > they are happy or the opposite of a dry drunk. > > I suppose you would also tell me to take my own > inventory. I got some > bad news for you. Anyone who doesn't take inventory > of other human > beings may as well be wearing a blindfold. It is > obvious to me that > there is much resentment and misunderstanding on > this list also some > wierd sort of fanaticism I haven't quite figured out > yet. > > As for moderate drinking, > > it might be the lesser of two evils if someone is > so put off by the > philosophy > > if you will of the 12-steps and chooses to take > their own life > because they > > are not " constitutionally capable. " > > What the hell are you saying here? You are saying in > effect that > people who are not willing to make a change of mind > and lifestyle for > some 'philosophical' differences would be better off > committing > suicide!!! > > As far as AA being a doctrine, that's not > > a bad word, I looked it up, it's from doctor, it > means a teaching > or something > > taught. And you'll have to agree that AA teaches, > doesn't it? So, > the > > 12-steps > > are a sort of doctrine aimed at directing someone > to a more > spiritual life in > > the > > absence of alcohol, right? Well, what's wrong > with that? > > Yeah! What's wrong with that? What's wrong with AA > teaching people > about alcoholism and recovering from it? Oh I > forgot. You don't want > anyone to require anything of you. > > Nothing. What's > > wrong with people objecting to it? Really, > nothing. If someone > thinks that > > AA is not for him or her, that's okay, too, right? > > > You know what. You are probably right but they > always come crying > back to meetings when they fall. AA is proven to > help alcoholics. The > denial and resistence to treatment of alcoholics is > unbelievable. > > And for many AA > > exacerbates the original problem by complicating > it with issues of > > supernatural stuff, no disrespect intended. > That's my primary > objection to > > AA, I don't disregard the fact that it supports > people initially in > their > > decision to stop or moderate drinking, I object to > the tacit > requirements of > > conformity in belief that are voiced at every > single meeting. > > Hey wait a minute! No one is forcing you to conform. > Why not speak > your own voice at meetings. Just because everyone > else might be doing > it (and I know what you are talking about) doesn't > mean you have to > sit there and mimick the others. Just like the other > things you say > are up to the individual. If you showed up at a > meeting and said the > things you want maybe you would be helping to make a > more interesting > meeting. Ever think of that? > > AA absolutely does not support people's decision to > moderate > drinking. As for the spriitual stuff, you should > read We Agnostics in > the big book. It shows clearly how people can throw > the baby out with > the bathwater so to speak. > > It overlooks > > the primary reason a person gets drunk or picks up > the first drink, > because > > they decide to and then they do it. > > Of course this is the reason they drink. It is > exactly the reason > anybody does anything. They just do it, but... > > It does not have anything to do with the > > moral or spiritual quality of that person. > > ...oh yes it does. Why would someone in their right > mind who has had > a history of abusive or alcoholic drinking start > drinking again? AA > has some very apt explanations for this. It is > because of a spiritual > dilemna. It is a form of insanity. There is an > implicit lack of self- > respect in this action. What less is this than a > moral and a > spiritual problem? > > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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