Is it better if they know? Who should tell them?

[Guest guest]

As I said before, I am new to the group and I am so happy I joined. The insight

is proving to be invaluable. You are all so spot on with your words. As of now,

My mother does not know she has BPD and may never know.(I wont be telling her BC

as I said, she is no longer speaking to me as I am " dead to her " . Her words, not

mine) Truth is, I am not sure I want her to know because a comment someone else

made really rang true for me. I believe my mom would " excuse " her bad behavior

by saying " I cant help it I have BPD " . She has never been one to admit defeat or

take any blame. On the other hand I would love for her to know so she could get

help and maybe be " normal " (feels like wishful thinking). I really dont know

what I prefer right now. I am a grown woman and wondering if a mother/daughter

realationship is even needed at this point? I have a great mother-in-law,

wonderful friends, amazing kids and the worlds most supportive husband.

Anyone else still in a period of NOT speaking? I would like to know your

thoughts and feelings. Or anyone who had an extended time of NOT speaking.

Thank you everyone,

Micimj

[Guest guest]

There are a couple of problems with saying to someone " I think you have

BPD. " The first is that, chances are, you aren't a trained mental health

care provider and so aren't really in a position to diagnose (even if

you're absolutely completely positive that that's what it is -- which

sometimes we ARE.) And even if you were trained in the field, it's not

possible for you to be objective about someone you have a relationship

with, like a family member or significant other. Personal feelings and

agendas, conscious and unconscious, ALWAYS get in the way of objectivity.

The second is that most personality disorders aren't cut-and-dried or

simple. Just look at the massive restructuring of the notion of

" personality disorder " that's going to happen with the upcoming rewrite of

the DSM. Urgh. I mean, my nada is quite BPD-ish, but is not self-harming.

She also has strong OCPD traits, often presenting more strongly than her

BPD-ish ones. And sometimes she's narcissistic, which is not even going to

be an " official " diagnosis anymore in 2013. So what should I say to her?

" In my non-professional opinion, you have BPD traits and OCPD traits and

sometimes you're just plain self-centered. " That basically comes down to

" I think you are massively screwed up, " and no one is really going to

respond to that kind of a message very well.

I think the general consensus on this list is usually NOT to say anything

to the suspected BPD, because it's very unlikely that it will do any good.

Either they will reject it totally, or they will (as you suggested) seize

upon it as an excuse to continue to behave badly because they can't " help "

themselves. (i.e. " I have a disorder, that's just the way I am, if you were

a good person you would just put up with my behavior because I have a

condition! " ) Remember, if they were THEMSELVES being deeply distressed by

their behavior, they would already be seeking out help and explanations.

Depending on your personal style and level of aggression, you COULD, if you

wanted, simply bombard her with info on the disorder in non-subtle ways and

hope that she'll pick up on it -- forward her Internet articles about BPD;

order books on BPD from Amazon and have them sent to her house; give books

on BPD to her as Christmas presents, and so on. But make no mistake --

that's VERY aggressive behavior, and the chances that it will produce the

result you're dreaming of -- that she will read one and go, " Oh my God, so

THAT'S what's wrong with me! I need to find a DBT treatment program today

and get started! " -- are basically zero.

The only plan I think has even a remote chance of succeeding -- and it's

very remote -- is to gently but consistently encourage the BPD to seek out

therapy, and then pray that the therapist is well-trained, recognizes the

disorder for what it is, and might, after a probably lengthy period of

establishing trust with the BPD, be able to nudge the BPD into DBT. But

honestly...don't bet on it.

It's important to remember that DBT is at the moment pretty much only

available for, and intended for, BPDs who are actively self-harming and

suicidal. And they have to WANT to participate. It calls for a massive

commitment, usually something like three sessions a week for two years.

It's not something you do once an hour every two weeks in your therapist's

office -- although certainly if she went to non-DBT therapy and her

therapist was sharp, the therapist might be able to work with her on

emotional regulation and distress reduction techniques, if she were open to

them. (That's a huge if.)

It's immensely hard to let go of the notion that somehow we might be able

to " fix " the BPD in our lives if we just " do the right thing " . I'm still

working on that myself, at least monthly (during bad times, DAILY.) In

addition to wanting them to quit being nasty to us, most of us are capable

of acknowledging that the BPD person is also suffering pretty badly from

their own behavior, and if that someone is close to us, we want to help

ease or end their suffering. Unfortunately, we ....just can't. I try to

remember the three " Cs " of codependency: " You did not CAUSE it. You cannot

CURE it. You cannot CONTROL it. "

As for " needing " a mother/daughter relationship -- well, I think we all

" need " that at some level. Or at the very least we want it desperately.

But if we were unfortunate enough to, say, lose our mother to a car

accident or to cancer or to a heart attack, we would have to learn to live

with the loss, because we often really want -- even " need " -- things we

simply can't have. The hard part about having a parent who is alive but

unavailable to us for other reasons (such as a severe personality disorder)

is that the hope -- that they will " come around " somehow, or magically " be

fixed " (by us or by others) and become the parent we want/need them to be

-- tends to cling. No one wants to give up all hope. If the parent dies,

you can let go, usually, after grieving. But letting go of a parent, or

significant other, who is still alive, is really, really tough.

You are greatly blessed to have a strong support system and many good

people to share your life with. I would concentrate on them as much as you

can and try to simply not focus on your troubled mother, particularly if

she has declared you " dead to her. " Grieving a parent who is still alive

is really hard, but it might be the path to peace. Otherwise you risk

getting stuck spending a ton of mental time and energy on the problem of

" fixing Mom, " and that's very unlikely to be a good investment of your

resources.

Best of luck in any case.

-- Jen H.

> **

>

>

> As I said before, I am new to the group and I am so happy I joined. The

> insight is proving to be invaluable. You are all so spot on with your

> words. As of now, My mother does not know she has BPD and may never know.(I

> wont be telling her BC as I said, she is no longer speaking to me as I am

> " dead to her " . Her words, not mine) Truth is, I am not sure I want her to

> know because a comment someone else made really rang true for me. I believe

> my mom would " excuse " her bad behavior by saying " I cant help it I have

> BPD " . She has never been one to admit defeat or take any blame. On the

> other hand I would love for her to know so she could get help and maybe be

> " normal " (feels like wishful thinking). I really dont know what I prefer

> right now. I am a grown woman and wondering if a mother/daughter

> realationship is even needed at this point? I have a great mother-in-law,

> wonderful friends, amazing kids and the worlds most supportive husband.

> Anyone else still in a period of NOT speaking? I would like to know your

> thoughts and feelings. Or anyone who had an extended time of NOT speaking.

> Thank you everyone,

> Micimj

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

There are a couple of problems with saying to someone " I think you have

BPD. " The first is that, chances are, you aren't a trained mental health

care provider and so aren't really in a position to diagnose (even if

you're absolutely completely positive that that's what it is -- which

sometimes we ARE.) And even if you were trained in the field, it's not

possible for you to be objective about someone you have a relationship

with, like a family member or significant other. Personal feelings and

agendas, conscious and unconscious, ALWAYS get in the way of objectivity.

The second is that most personality disorders aren't cut-and-dried or

simple. Just look at the massive restructuring of the notion of

" personality disorder " that's going to happen with the upcoming rewrite of

the DSM. Urgh. I mean, my nada is quite BPD-ish, but is not self-harming.

She also has strong OCPD traits, often presenting more strongly than her

BPD-ish ones. And sometimes she's narcissistic, which is not even going to

be an " official " diagnosis anymore in 2013. So what should I say to her?

" In my non-professional opinion, you have BPD traits and OCPD traits and

sometimes you're just plain self-centered. " That basically comes down to

" I think you are massively screwed up, " and no one is really going to

respond to that kind of a message very well.

I think the general consensus on this list is usually NOT to say anything

to the suspected BPD, because it's very unlikely that it will do any good.

Either they will reject it totally, or they will (as you suggested) seize

upon it as an excuse to continue to behave badly because they can't " help "

themselves. (i.e. " I have a disorder, that's just the way I am, if you were

a good person you would just put up with my behavior because I have a

condition! " ) Remember, if they were THEMSELVES being deeply distressed by

their behavior, they would already be seeking out help and explanations.

Depending on your personal style and level of aggression, you COULD, if you

wanted, simply bombard her with info on the disorder in non-subtle ways and

hope that she'll pick up on it -- forward her Internet articles about BPD;

order books on BPD from Amazon and have them sent to her house; give books

on BPD to her as Christmas presents, and so on. But make no mistake --

that's VERY aggressive behavior, and the chances that it will produce the

result you're dreaming of -- that she will read one and go, " Oh my God, so

THAT'S what's wrong with me! I need to find a DBT treatment program today

and get started! " -- are basically zero.

The only plan I think has even a remote chance of succeeding -- and it's

very remote -- is to gently but consistently encourage the BPD to seek out

therapy, and then pray that the therapist is well-trained, recognizes the

disorder for what it is, and might, after a probably lengthy period of

establishing trust with the BPD, be able to nudge the BPD into DBT. But

honestly...don't bet on it.

It's important to remember that DBT is at the moment pretty much only

available for, and intended for, BPDs who are actively self-harming and

suicidal. And they have to WANT to participate. It calls for a massive

commitment, usually something like three sessions a week for two years.

It's not something you do once an hour every two weeks in your therapist's

office -- although certainly if she went to non-DBT therapy and her

therapist was sharp, the therapist might be able to work with her on

emotional regulation and distress reduction techniques, if she were open to

them. (That's a huge if.)

It's immensely hard to let go of the notion that somehow we might be able

to " fix " the BPD in our lives if we just " do the right thing " . I'm still

working on that myself, at least monthly (during bad times, DAILY.) In

addition to wanting them to quit being nasty to us, most of us are capable

of acknowledging that the BPD person is also suffering pretty badly from

their own behavior, and if that someone is close to us, we want to help

ease or end their suffering. Unfortunately, we ....just can't. I try to

remember the three " Cs " of codependency: " You did not CAUSE it. You cannot

CURE it. You cannot CONTROL it. "

As for " needing " a mother/daughter relationship -- well, I think we all

" need " that at some level. Or at the very least we want it desperately.

But if we were unfortunate enough to, say, lose our mother to a car

accident or to cancer or to a heart attack, we would have to learn to live

with the loss, because we often really want -- even " need " -- things we

simply can't have. The hard part about having a parent who is alive but

unavailable to us for other reasons (such as a severe personality disorder)

is that the hope -- that they will " come around " somehow, or magically " be

fixed " (by us or by others) and become the parent we want/need them to be

-- tends to cling. No one wants to give up all hope. If the parent dies,

you can let go, usually, after grieving. But letting go of a parent, or

significant other, who is still alive, is really, really tough.

You are greatly blessed to have a strong support system and many good

people to share your life with. I would concentrate on them as much as you

can and try to simply not focus on your troubled mother, particularly if

she has declared you " dead to her. " Grieving a parent who is still alive

is really hard, but it might be the path to peace. Otherwise you risk

getting stuck spending a ton of mental time and energy on the problem of

" fixing Mom, " and that's very unlikely to be a good investment of your

resources.

Best of luck in any case.

-- Jen H.

> **

>

>

> As I said before, I am new to the group and I am so happy I joined. The

> insight is proving to be invaluable. You are all so spot on with your

> words. As of now, My mother does not know she has BPD and may never know.(I

> wont be telling her BC as I said, she is no longer speaking to me as I am

> " dead to her " . Her words, not mine) Truth is, I am not sure I want her to

> know because a comment someone else made really rang true for me. I believe

> my mom would " excuse " her bad behavior by saying " I cant help it I have

> BPD " . She has never been one to admit defeat or take any blame. On the

> other hand I would love for her to know so she could get help and maybe be

> " normal " (feels like wishful thinking). I really dont know what I prefer

> right now. I am a grown woman and wondering if a mother/daughter

> realationship is even needed at this point? I have a great mother-in-law,

> wonderful friends, amazing kids and the worlds most supportive husband.

> Anyone else still in a period of NOT speaking? I would like to know your

> thoughts and feelings. Or anyone who had an extended time of NOT speaking.

> Thank you everyone,

> Micimj

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

There are a couple of problems with saying to someone " I think you have

BPD. " The first is that, chances are, you aren't a trained mental health

care provider and so aren't really in a position to diagnose (even if

you're absolutely completely positive that that's what it is -- which

sometimes we ARE.) And even if you were trained in the field, it's not

possible for you to be objective about someone you have a relationship

with, like a family member or significant other. Personal feelings and

agendas, conscious and unconscious, ALWAYS get in the way of objectivity.

The second is that most personality disorders aren't cut-and-dried or

simple. Just look at the massive restructuring of the notion of

" personality disorder " that's going to happen with the upcoming rewrite of

the DSM. Urgh. I mean, my nada is quite BPD-ish, but is not self-harming.

She also has strong OCPD traits, often presenting more strongly than her

BPD-ish ones. And sometimes she's narcissistic, which is not even going to

be an " official " diagnosis anymore in 2013. So what should I say to her?

" In my non-professional opinion, you have BPD traits and OCPD traits and

sometimes you're just plain self-centered. " That basically comes down to

" I think you are massively screwed up, " and no one is really going to

respond to that kind of a message very well.

I think the general consensus on this list is usually NOT to say anything

to the suspected BPD, because it's very unlikely that it will do any good.

Either they will reject it totally, or they will (as you suggested) seize

upon it as an excuse to continue to behave badly because they can't " help "

themselves. (i.e. " I have a disorder, that's just the way I am, if you were

a good person you would just put up with my behavior because I have a

condition! " ) Remember, if they were THEMSELVES being deeply distressed by

their behavior, they would already be seeking out help and explanations.

Depending on your personal style and level of aggression, you COULD, if you

wanted, simply bombard her with info on the disorder in non-subtle ways and

hope that she'll pick up on it -- forward her Internet articles about BPD;

order books on BPD from Amazon and have them sent to her house; give books

on BPD to her as Christmas presents, and so on. But make no mistake --

that's VERY aggressive behavior, and the chances that it will produce the

result you're dreaming of -- that she will read one and go, " Oh my God, so

THAT'S what's wrong with me! I need to find a DBT treatment program today

and get started! " -- are basically zero.

The only plan I think has even a remote chance of succeeding -- and it's

very remote -- is to gently but consistently encourage the BPD to seek out

therapy, and then pray that the therapist is well-trained, recognizes the

disorder for what it is, and might, after a probably lengthy period of

establishing trust with the BPD, be able to nudge the BPD into DBT. But

honestly...don't bet on it.

It's important to remember that DBT is at the moment pretty much only

available for, and intended for, BPDs who are actively self-harming and

suicidal. And they have to WANT to participate. It calls for a massive

commitment, usually something like three sessions a week for two years.

It's not something you do once an hour every two weeks in your therapist's

office -- although certainly if she went to non-DBT therapy and her

therapist was sharp, the therapist might be able to work with her on

emotional regulation and distress reduction techniques, if she were open to

them. (That's a huge if.)

It's immensely hard to let go of the notion that somehow we might be able

to " fix " the BPD in our lives if we just " do the right thing " . I'm still

working on that myself, at least monthly (during bad times, DAILY.) In

addition to wanting them to quit being nasty to us, most of us are capable

of acknowledging that the BPD person is also suffering pretty badly from

their own behavior, and if that someone is close to us, we want to help

ease or end their suffering. Unfortunately, we ....just can't. I try to

remember the three " Cs " of codependency: " You did not CAUSE it. You cannot

CURE it. You cannot CONTROL it. "

As for " needing " a mother/daughter relationship -- well, I think we all

" need " that at some level. Or at the very least we want it desperately.

But if we were unfortunate enough to, say, lose our mother to a car

accident or to cancer or to a heart attack, we would have to learn to live

with the loss, because we often really want -- even " need " -- things we

simply can't have. The hard part about having a parent who is alive but

unavailable to us for other reasons (such as a severe personality disorder)

is that the hope -- that they will " come around " somehow, or magically " be

fixed " (by us or by others) and become the parent we want/need them to be

-- tends to cling. No one wants to give up all hope. If the parent dies,

you can let go, usually, after grieving. But letting go of a parent, or

significant other, who is still alive, is really, really tough.

You are greatly blessed to have a strong support system and many good

people to share your life with. I would concentrate on them as much as you

can and try to simply not focus on your troubled mother, particularly if

she has declared you " dead to her. " Grieving a parent who is still alive

is really hard, but it might be the path to peace. Otherwise you risk

getting stuck spending a ton of mental time and energy on the problem of

" fixing Mom, " and that's very unlikely to be a good investment of your

resources.

Best of luck in any case.

-- Jen H.

> **

>

>

> As I said before, I am new to the group and I am so happy I joined. The

> insight is proving to be invaluable. You are all so spot on with your

> words. As of now, My mother does not know she has BPD and may never know.(I

> wont be telling her BC as I said, she is no longer speaking to me as I am

> " dead to her " . Her words, not mine) Truth is, I am not sure I want her to

> know because a comment someone else made really rang true for me. I believe

> my mom would " excuse " her bad behavior by saying " I cant help it I have

> BPD " . She has never been one to admit defeat or take any blame. On the

> other hand I would love for her to know so she could get help and maybe be

> " normal " (feels like wishful thinking). I really dont know what I prefer

> right now. I am a grown woman and wondering if a mother/daughter

> realationship is even needed at this point? I have a great mother-in-law,

> wonderful friends, amazing kids and the worlds most supportive husband.

> Anyone else still in a period of NOT speaking? I would like to know your

> thoughts and feelings. Or anyone who had an extended time of NOT speaking.

> Thank you everyone,

> Micimj

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with Jen's take on this.

Me personally, I think the only thing we can really do, the only power we

actually do possess is to change the way *we, ourselves* react to their pd

behaviors. We have the power to set boundaries *for ourselves* regarding what

*we* will and will not tolerate and what *we* will do if our boundaries are

violated.

By taking this approach, we are NOT telling the person with bpd that they have a

mental illness, and we are NOT telling them what to do. Instead, we are simply

saying what WE will do if they choose to do X, Y, or Z behavior.

Its a very subtle but important difference, and yet it translates into a HUGE

paradigm-shift or power-shift in the relationship. It actually means that you

are taking control of your half of the relationship, taking your *adult power*

and utilizing it in a gentle but firm way.

The way it works is: instead of writing a to bpd mom/nada letter telling her not

to call you 8 times a day, you can either block nada's phone number or

automatically direct nada's incoming calls to voice-message, and *you* only

phone *her* once a day.

When you do phone her, you can say something like, " Mom, I know that this is

going to be difficult for you but from now on I can only talk to you once a day

(or whatever frequency works for you, personally.) I can't stop and talk to

you (eight times a day) any more, it just isn't working for me. Thanks for

understanding. "

But if your bpd parent then becomes hostile and verbally abusive or hysterical,

you politely but firmly say something like, " I won't listen to you when you

curse at me... " or " We can't talk together when you are crying and upset, so

I'm going to hang up now. We can talk again next week when you are calmer. "

My Sister was able to set boundaries with our nada, but I wasn't able to; I went

totally No Contact with my bpd mom instead. Two different people, two different

approaches. So, its about finding what works best for you: what you can live

with and manage.

-Annie

>

> There are a couple of problems with saying to someone " I think you have

> BPD. " The first is that, chances are, you aren't a trained mental health

> care provider and so aren't really in a position to diagnose (even if

> you're absolutely completely positive that that's what it is -- which

> sometimes we ARE.) And even if you were trained in the field, it's not

> possible for you to be objective about someone you have a relationship

> with, like a family member or significant other. Personal feelings and

> agendas, conscious and unconscious, ALWAYS get in the way of objectivity.

>

> The second is that most personality disorders aren't cut-and-dried or

> simple. Just look at the massive restructuring of the notion of

> " personality disorder " that's going to happen with the upcoming rewrite of

> the DSM. Urgh. I mean, my nada is quite BPD-ish, but is not self-harming.

> She also has strong OCPD traits, often presenting more strongly than her

> BPD-ish ones. And sometimes she's narcissistic, which is not even going to

> be an " official " diagnosis anymore in 2013. So what should I say to her?

> " In my non-professional opinion, you have BPD traits and OCPD traits and

> sometimes you're just plain self-centered. " That basically comes down to

> " I think you are massively screwed up, " and no one is really going to

> respond to that kind of a message very well.

>

> I think the general consensus on this list is usually NOT to say anything

> to the suspected BPD, because it's very unlikely that it will do any good.

> Either they will reject it totally, or they will (as you suggested) seize

> upon it as an excuse to continue to behave badly because they can't " help "

> themselves. (i.e. " I have a disorder, that's just the way I am, if you were

> a good person you would just put up with my behavior because I have a

> condition! " ) Remember, if they were THEMSELVES being deeply distressed by

> their behavior, they would already be seeking out help and explanations.

>

> Depending on your personal style and level of aggression, you COULD, if you

> wanted, simply bombard her with info on the disorder in non-subtle ways and

> hope that she'll pick up on it -- forward her Internet articles about BPD;

> order books on BPD from Amazon and have them sent to her house; give books

> on BPD to her as Christmas presents, and so on. But make no mistake --

> that's VERY aggressive behavior, and the chances that it will produce the

> result you're dreaming of -- that she will read one and go, " Oh my God, so

> THAT'S what's wrong with me! I need to find a DBT treatment program today

> and get started! " -- are basically zero.

>

> The only plan I think has even a remote chance of succeeding -- and it's

> very remote -- is to gently but consistently encourage the BPD to seek out

> therapy, and then pray that the therapist is well-trained, recognizes the

> disorder for what it is, and might, after a probably lengthy period of

> establishing trust with the BPD, be able to nudge the BPD into DBT. But

> honestly...don't bet on it.

>

> It's important to remember that DBT is at the moment pretty much only

> available for, and intended for, BPDs who are actively self-harming and

> suicidal. And they have to WANT to participate. It calls for a massive

> commitment, usually something like three sessions a week for two years.

> It's not something you do once an hour every two weeks in your therapist's

> office -- although certainly if she went to non-DBT therapy and her

> therapist was sharp, the therapist might be able to work with her on

> emotional regulation and distress reduction techniques, if she were open to

> them. (That's a huge if.)

>

> It's immensely hard to let go of the notion that somehow we might be able

> to " fix " the BPD in our lives if we just " do the right thing " . I'm still

> working on that myself, at least monthly (during bad times, DAILY.) In

> addition to wanting them to quit being nasty to us, most of us are capable

> of acknowledging that the BPD person is also suffering pretty badly from

> their own behavior, and if that someone is close to us, we want to help

> ease or end their suffering. Unfortunately, we ....just can't. I try to

> remember the three " Cs " of codependency: " You did not CAUSE it. You cannot

> CURE it. You cannot CONTROL it. "

>

> As for " needing " a mother/daughter relationship -- well, I think we all

> " need " that at some level. Or at the very least we want it desperately.

> But if we were unfortunate enough to, say, lose our mother to a car

> accident or to cancer or to a heart attack, we would have to learn to live

> with the loss, because we often really want -- even " need " -- things we

> simply can't have. The hard part about having a parent who is alive but

> unavailable to us for other reasons (such as a severe personality disorder)

> is that the hope -- that they will " come around " somehow, or magically " be

> fixed " (by us or by others) and become the parent we want/need them to be

> -- tends to cling. No one wants to give up all hope. If the parent dies,

> you can let go, usually, after grieving. But letting go of a parent, or

> significant other, who is still alive, is really, really tough.

>

> You are greatly blessed to have a strong support system and many good

> people to share your life with. I would concentrate on them as much as you

> can and try to simply not focus on your troubled mother, particularly if

> she has declared you " dead to her. " Grieving a parent who is still alive

> is really hard, but it might be the path to peace. Otherwise you risk

> getting stuck spending a ton of mental time and energy on the problem of

> " fixing Mom, " and that's very unlikely to be a good investment of your

> resources.

>

> Best of luck in any case.

> -- Jen H.

[Guest guest]

I agree with Jen's take on this.

Me personally, I think the only thing we can really do, the only power we

actually do possess is to change the way *we, ourselves* react to their pd

behaviors. We have the power to set boundaries *for ourselves* regarding what

*we* will and will not tolerate and what *we* will do if our boundaries are

violated.

By taking this approach, we are NOT telling the person with bpd that they have a

mental illness, and we are NOT telling them what to do. Instead, we are simply

saying what WE will do if they choose to do X, Y, or Z behavior.

Its a very subtle but important difference, and yet it translates into a HUGE

paradigm-shift or power-shift in the relationship. It actually means that you

are taking control of your half of the relationship, taking your *adult power*

and utilizing it in a gentle but firm way.

The way it works is: instead of writing a to bpd mom/nada letter telling her not

to call you 8 times a day, you can either block nada's phone number or

automatically direct nada's incoming calls to voice-message, and *you* only

phone *her* once a day.

When you do phone her, you can say something like, " Mom, I know that this is

going to be difficult for you but from now on I can only talk to you once a day

(or whatever frequency works for you, personally.) I can't stop and talk to

you (eight times a day) any more, it just isn't working for me. Thanks for

understanding. "

But if your bpd parent then becomes hostile and verbally abusive or hysterical,

you politely but firmly say something like, " I won't listen to you when you

curse at me... " or " We can't talk together when you are crying and upset, so

I'm going to hang up now. We can talk again next week when you are calmer. "

My Sister was able to set boundaries with our nada, but I wasn't able to; I went

totally No Contact with my bpd mom instead. Two different people, two different

approaches. So, its about finding what works best for you: what you can live

with and manage.

-Annie

>

> There are a couple of problems with saying to someone " I think you have

> BPD. " The first is that, chances are, you aren't a trained mental health

> care provider and so aren't really in a position to diagnose (even if

> you're absolutely completely positive that that's what it is -- which

> sometimes we ARE.) And even if you were trained in the field, it's not

> possible for you to be objective about someone you have a relationship

> with, like a family member or significant other. Personal feelings and

> agendas, conscious and unconscious, ALWAYS get in the way of objectivity.

>

> The second is that most personality disorders aren't cut-and-dried or

> simple. Just look at the massive restructuring of the notion of

> " personality disorder " that's going to happen with the upcoming rewrite of

> the DSM. Urgh. I mean, my nada is quite BPD-ish, but is not self-harming.

> She also has strong OCPD traits, often presenting more strongly than her

> BPD-ish ones. And sometimes she's narcissistic, which is not even going to

> be an " official " diagnosis anymore in 2013. So what should I say to her?

> " In my non-professional opinion, you have BPD traits and OCPD traits and

> sometimes you're just plain self-centered. " That basically comes down to

> " I think you are massively screwed up, " and no one is really going to

> respond to that kind of a message very well.

>

> I think the general consensus on this list is usually NOT to say anything

> to the suspected BPD, because it's very unlikely that it will do any good.

> Either they will reject it totally, or they will (as you suggested) seize

> upon it as an excuse to continue to behave badly because they can't " help "

> themselves. (i.e. " I have a disorder, that's just the way I am, if you were

> a good person you would just put up with my behavior because I have a

> condition! " ) Remember, if they were THEMSELVES being deeply distressed by

> their behavior, they would already be seeking out help and explanations.

>

> Depending on your personal style and level of aggression, you COULD, if you

> wanted, simply bombard her with info on the disorder in non-subtle ways and

> hope that she'll pick up on it -- forward her Internet articles about BPD;

> order books on BPD from Amazon and have them sent to her house; give books

> on BPD to her as Christmas presents, and so on. But make no mistake --

> that's VERY aggressive behavior, and the chances that it will produce the

> result you're dreaming of -- that she will read one and go, " Oh my God, so

> THAT'S what's wrong with me! I need to find a DBT treatment program today

> and get started! " -- are basically zero.

>

> The only plan I think has even a remote chance of succeeding -- and it's

> very remote -- is to gently but consistently encourage the BPD to seek out

> therapy, and then pray that the therapist is well-trained, recognizes the

> disorder for what it is, and might, after a probably lengthy period of

> establishing trust with the BPD, be able to nudge the BPD into DBT. But

> honestly...don't bet on it.

>

> It's important to remember that DBT is at the moment pretty much only

> available for, and intended for, BPDs who are actively self-harming and

> suicidal. And they have to WANT to participate. It calls for a massive

> commitment, usually something like three sessions a week for two years.

> It's not something you do once an hour every two weeks in your therapist's

> office -- although certainly if she went to non-DBT therapy and her

> therapist was sharp, the therapist might be able to work with her on

> emotional regulation and distress reduction techniques, if she were open to

> them. (That's a huge if.)

>

> It's immensely hard to let go of the notion that somehow we might be able

> to " fix " the BPD in our lives if we just " do the right thing " . I'm still

> working on that myself, at least monthly (during bad times, DAILY.) In

> addition to wanting them to quit being nasty to us, most of us are capable

> of acknowledging that the BPD person is also suffering pretty badly from

> their own behavior, and if that someone is close to us, we want to help

> ease or end their suffering. Unfortunately, we ....just can't. I try to

> remember the three " Cs " of codependency: " You did not CAUSE it. You cannot

> CURE it. You cannot CONTROL it. "

>

> As for " needing " a mother/daughter relationship -- well, I think we all

> " need " that at some level. Or at the very least we want it desperately.

> But if we were unfortunate enough to, say, lose our mother to a car

> accident or to cancer or to a heart attack, we would have to learn to live

> with the loss, because we often really want -- even " need " -- things we

> simply can't have. The hard part about having a parent who is alive but

> unavailable to us for other reasons (such as a severe personality disorder)

> is that the hope -- that they will " come around " somehow, or magically " be

> fixed " (by us or by others) and become the parent we want/need them to be

> -- tends to cling. No one wants to give up all hope. If the parent dies,

> you can let go, usually, after grieving. But letting go of a parent, or

> significant other, who is still alive, is really, really tough.

>

> You are greatly blessed to have a strong support system and many good

> people to share your life with. I would concentrate on them as much as you

> can and try to simply not focus on your troubled mother, particularly if

> she has declared you " dead to her. " Grieving a parent who is still alive

> is really hard, but it might be the path to peace. Otherwise you risk

> getting stuck spending a ton of mental time and energy on the problem of

> " fixing Mom, " and that's very unlikely to be a good investment of your

> resources.

>

> Best of luck in any case.

> -- Jen H.

[Guest guest]

I agree with Jen's take on this.

Me personally, I think the only thing we can really do, the only power we

actually do possess is to change the way *we, ourselves* react to their pd

behaviors. We have the power to set boundaries *for ourselves* regarding what

*we* will and will not tolerate and what *we* will do if our boundaries are

violated.

By taking this approach, we are NOT telling the person with bpd that they have a

mental illness, and we are NOT telling them what to do. Instead, we are simply

saying what WE will do if they choose to do X, Y, or Z behavior.

Its a very subtle but important difference, and yet it translates into a HUGE

paradigm-shift or power-shift in the relationship. It actually means that you

are taking control of your half of the relationship, taking your *adult power*

and utilizing it in a gentle but firm way.

The way it works is: instead of writing a to bpd mom/nada letter telling her not

to call you 8 times a day, you can either block nada's phone number or

automatically direct nada's incoming calls to voice-message, and *you* only

phone *her* once a day.

When you do phone her, you can say something like, " Mom, I know that this is

going to be difficult for you but from now on I can only talk to you once a day

(or whatever frequency works for you, personally.) I can't stop and talk to

you (eight times a day) any more, it just isn't working for me. Thanks for

understanding. "

But if your bpd parent then becomes hostile and verbally abusive or hysterical,

you politely but firmly say something like, " I won't listen to you when you

curse at me... " or " We can't talk together when you are crying and upset, so

I'm going to hang up now. We can talk again next week when you are calmer. "

My Sister was able to set boundaries with our nada, but I wasn't able to; I went

totally No Contact with my bpd mom instead. Two different people, two different

approaches. So, its about finding what works best for you: what you can live

with and manage.

-Annie

>

> There are a couple of problems with saying to someone " I think you have

> BPD. " The first is that, chances are, you aren't a trained mental health

> care provider and so aren't really in a position to diagnose (even if

> you're absolutely completely positive that that's what it is -- which

> sometimes we ARE.) And even if you were trained in the field, it's not

> possible for you to be objective about someone you have a relationship

> with, like a family member or significant other. Personal feelings and

> agendas, conscious and unconscious, ALWAYS get in the way of objectivity.

>

> The second is that most personality disorders aren't cut-and-dried or

> simple. Just look at the massive restructuring of the notion of

> " personality disorder " that's going to happen with the upcoming rewrite of

> the DSM. Urgh. I mean, my nada is quite BPD-ish, but is not self-harming.

> She also has strong OCPD traits, often presenting more strongly than her

> BPD-ish ones. And sometimes she's narcissistic, which is not even going to

> be an " official " diagnosis anymore in 2013. So what should I say to her?

> " In my non-professional opinion, you have BPD traits and OCPD traits and

> sometimes you're just plain self-centered. " That basically comes down to

> " I think you are massively screwed up, " and no one is really going to

> respond to that kind of a message very well.

>

> I think the general consensus on this list is usually NOT to say anything

> to the suspected BPD, because it's very unlikely that it will do any good.

> Either they will reject it totally, or they will (as you suggested) seize

> upon it as an excuse to continue to behave badly because they can't " help "

> themselves. (i.e. " I have a disorder, that's just the way I am, if you were

> a good person you would just put up with my behavior because I have a

> condition! " ) Remember, if they were THEMSELVES being deeply distressed by

> their behavior, they would already be seeking out help and explanations.

>

> Depending on your personal style and level of aggression, you COULD, if you

> wanted, simply bombard her with info on the disorder in non-subtle ways and

> hope that she'll pick up on it -- forward her Internet articles about BPD;

> order books on BPD from Amazon and have them sent to her house; give books

> on BPD to her as Christmas presents, and so on. But make no mistake --

> that's VERY aggressive behavior, and the chances that it will produce the

> result you're dreaming of -- that she will read one and go, " Oh my God, so

> THAT'S what's wrong with me! I need to find a DBT treatment program today

> and get started! " -- are basically zero.

>

> The only plan I think has even a remote chance of succeeding -- and it's

> very remote -- is to gently but consistently encourage the BPD to seek out

> therapy, and then pray that the therapist is well-trained, recognizes the

> disorder for what it is, and might, after a probably lengthy period of

> establishing trust with the BPD, be able to nudge the BPD into DBT. But

> honestly...don't bet on it.

>

> It's important to remember that DBT is at the moment pretty much only

> available for, and intended for, BPDs who are actively self-harming and

> suicidal. And they have to WANT to participate. It calls for a massive

> commitment, usually something like three sessions a week for two years.

> It's not something you do once an hour every two weeks in your therapist's

> office -- although certainly if she went to non-DBT therapy and her

> therapist was sharp, the therapist might be able to work with her on

> emotional regulation and distress reduction techniques, if she were open to

> them. (That's a huge if.)

>

> It's immensely hard to let go of the notion that somehow we might be able

> to " fix " the BPD in our lives if we just " do the right thing " . I'm still

> working on that myself, at least monthly (during bad times, DAILY.) In

> addition to wanting them to quit being nasty to us, most of us are capable

> of acknowledging that the BPD person is also suffering pretty badly from

> their own behavior, and if that someone is close to us, we want to help

> ease or end their suffering. Unfortunately, we ....just can't. I try to

> remember the three " Cs " of codependency: " You did not CAUSE it. You cannot

> CURE it. You cannot CONTROL it. "

>

> As for " needing " a mother/daughter relationship -- well, I think we all

> " need " that at some level. Or at the very least we want it desperately.

> But if we were unfortunate enough to, say, lose our mother to a car

> accident or to cancer or to a heart attack, we would have to learn to live

> with the loss, because we often really want -- even " need " -- things we

> simply can't have. The hard part about having a parent who is alive but

> unavailable to us for other reasons (such as a severe personality disorder)

> is that the hope -- that they will " come around " somehow, or magically " be

> fixed " (by us or by others) and become the parent we want/need them to be

> -- tends to cling. No one wants to give up all hope. If the parent dies,

> you can let go, usually, after grieving. But letting go of a parent, or

> significant other, who is still alive, is really, really tough.

>

> You are greatly blessed to have a strong support system and many good

> people to share your life with. I would concentrate on them as much as you

> can and try to simply not focus on your troubled mother, particularly if

> she has declared you " dead to her. " Grieving a parent who is still alive

> is really hard, but it might be the path to peace. Otherwise you risk

> getting stuck spending a ton of mental time and energy on the problem of

> " fixing Mom, " and that's very unlikely to be a good investment of your

> resources.

>

> Best of luck in any case.

> -- Jen H.

[Guest guest]

I agree with Annie. The only person we can control or change is

ourself. We can't make someone want to get help. I think that

trying to tell someone that he or she has BPD is likely to have

bad results of one sort or another. People who don't want to be

helped can't be helped for the most part. Our nadas and fadas

don't want to be helped, at least not in that way. Telling them

about BPD isn't going to make them realize that they could get

help and be normal. Besides that, I don't believe that any

amount of help at this point is going to make them " normal " .

From the accounts I've read about people who have been treated

for BPD, what they can learn, with a lot of work, is to behave

in more acceptable ways. Therapy doesn't change the basic ways

their brains work. Their emotions are still out of whack even if

they do learn better ways to handle them.

Even though we can't change them, we don't have to react the way

they want us to react. If we fail to react as they desire,

sometimes they will choose to change their behavior. Sometimes

they even change it for the better. To change for the better,

they have to decide for themselves that they want to change

though. Sometimes their desire to mistreat people is stronger

than their dislike of whatever consequences arise from that

mistreatment and nothing we do will change how they treat us.

Like Annie's sister, I've been able to set boundaries that

mostly work for me. My nada doesn't understand that there is

anything wrong with her or how she wants to act, but she does

understand that actually acting that way towards me will cause

me to leave or hang up the phone ASAP. I'm sure she thinks

that's a defect in me, but I don't care what she thinks as long

as she behaves passibly well around me. We actually got through

an entire lunch on Mother's Day without her saying a single bad

thing about my sister or whining about her lack of contact.

That's pretty amazing. (She doesn't understand why her daughter

who was kicked out of the house at 2 AM with no transportation

but her feet and who was told in writing never to come back

again, doesn't talk to her at all. I doubt she'll ever

understand that what she did to my sister was wrong. I just need

her to not talk about it to me.)

At 02:14 PM 05/21/2012 anuria67854 wrote:

>I agree with Jen's take on this.

>

>Me personally, I think the only thing we can really do, the

>only power we actually do possess is to change the way *we,

>ourselves* react to their pd behaviors. We have the power to

>set boundaries *for ourselves* regarding what *we* will and

>will not tolerate and what *we* will do if our boundaries are

>violated.

>

>By taking this approach, we are NOT telling the person with bpd

>that they have a mental illness, and we are NOT telling them

>what to do. Instead, we are simply saying what WE will do if

>they choose to do X, Y, or Z behavior.

>

>Its a very subtle but important difference, and yet it

>translates into a HUGE paradigm-shift or power-shift in the

>relationship. It actually means that you are taking control

>of your half of the relationship, taking your *adult power* and

>utilizing it in a gentle but firm way.

>

>The way it works is: instead of writing a to bpd mom/nada

>letter telling her not to call you 8 times a day, you can

>either block nada's phone number or automatically direct nada's

>incoming calls to voice-message, and *you* only phone *her*

>once a day.

>

>When you do phone her, you can say something like, " Mom, I know

>that this is going to be difficult for you but from now on I

>can only talk to you once a day (or whatever frequency works

>for you, personally.) I can't stop and talk to you (eight

>times a day) any more, it just isn't working for me. Thanks

>for understanding. "

>

>But if your bpd parent then becomes hostile and verbally

>abusive or hysterical, you politely but firmly say something

>like, " I won't listen to you when you curse at me... " or " We

>can't talk together when you are crying and upset, so I'm

>going to hang up now. We can talk again next week when you are

>calmer. "

>

>My Sister was able to set boundaries with our nada, but I

>wasn't able to; I went totally No Contact with my bpd mom

>instead. Two different people, two different approaches. So,

>its about finding what works best for you: what you can live

>with and manage.

>

>-Annie

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

I agree with Annie. The only person we can control or change is

ourself. We can't make someone want to get help. I think that

trying to tell someone that he or she has BPD is likely to have

bad results of one sort or another. People who don't want to be

helped can't be helped for the most part. Our nadas and fadas

don't want to be helped, at least not in that way. Telling them

about BPD isn't going to make them realize that they could get

help and be normal. Besides that, I don't believe that any

amount of help at this point is going to make them " normal " .

From the accounts I've read about people who have been treated

for BPD, what they can learn, with a lot of work, is to behave

in more acceptable ways. Therapy doesn't change the basic ways

their brains work. Their emotions are still out of whack even if

they do learn better ways to handle them.

Even though we can't change them, we don't have to react the way

they want us to react. If we fail to react as they desire,

sometimes they will choose to change their behavior. Sometimes

they even change it for the better. To change for the better,

they have to decide for themselves that they want to change

though. Sometimes their desire to mistreat people is stronger

than their dislike of whatever consequences arise from that

mistreatment and nothing we do will change how they treat us.

Like Annie's sister, I've been able to set boundaries that

mostly work for me. My nada doesn't understand that there is

anything wrong with her or how she wants to act, but she does

understand that actually acting that way towards me will cause

me to leave or hang up the phone ASAP. I'm sure she thinks

that's a defect in me, but I don't care what she thinks as long

as she behaves passibly well around me. We actually got through

an entire lunch on Mother's Day without her saying a single bad

thing about my sister or whining about her lack of contact.

That's pretty amazing. (She doesn't understand why her daughter

who was kicked out of the house at 2 AM with no transportation

but her feet and who was told in writing never to come back

again, doesn't talk to her at all. I doubt she'll ever

understand that what she did to my sister was wrong. I just need

her to not talk about it to me.)

At 02:14 PM 05/21/2012 anuria67854 wrote:

>I agree with Jen's take on this.

>

>Me personally, I think the only thing we can really do, the

>only power we actually do possess is to change the way *we,

>ourselves* react to their pd behaviors. We have the power to

>set boundaries *for ourselves* regarding what *we* will and

>will not tolerate and what *we* will do if our boundaries are

>violated.

>

>By taking this approach, we are NOT telling the person with bpd

>that they have a mental illness, and we are NOT telling them

>what to do. Instead, we are simply saying what WE will do if

>they choose to do X, Y, or Z behavior.

>

>Its a very subtle but important difference, and yet it

>translates into a HUGE paradigm-shift or power-shift in the

>relationship. It actually means that you are taking control

>of your half of the relationship, taking your *adult power* and

>utilizing it in a gentle but firm way.

>

>The way it works is: instead of writing a to bpd mom/nada

>letter telling her not to call you 8 times a day, you can

>either block nada's phone number or automatically direct nada's

>incoming calls to voice-message, and *you* only phone *her*

>once a day.

>

>When you do phone her, you can say something like, " Mom, I know

>that this is going to be difficult for you but from now on I

>can only talk to you once a day (or whatever frequency works

>for you, personally.) I can't stop and talk to you (eight

>times a day) any more, it just isn't working for me. Thanks

>for understanding. "

>

>But if your bpd parent then becomes hostile and verbally

>abusive or hysterical, you politely but firmly say something

>like, " I won't listen to you when you curse at me... " or " We

>can't talk together when you are crying and upset, so I'm

>going to hang up now. We can talk again next week when you are

>calmer. "

>

>My Sister was able to set boundaries with our nada, but I

>wasn't able to; I went totally No Contact with my bpd mom

>instead. Two different people, two different approaches. So,

>its about finding what works best for you: what you can live

>with and manage.

>

>-Annie

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

In general, it s not productive to " inform " a BP they have BP. Think

about it, what specific bad behaviors have you been able to inform them

of, with any positive result. The reactions generally go one of 2

ways.

Either you are attacking them with that viscious slander, or it suddenly

becomes an excuse for any bad behavior they want to exhibit.

More productive, and safer, and reasonable, is to say Your behavior or

reaction in XYZ concerns me, and I think it might be helpful if you saw

a Therapist. Or even, because you do ABC, the following are consequences

and restrictions for my boundaries. If you want to work on healing

these things, you will need professional help. What you do is up to

you, but I will no longer accept ABC behavior from you and will enforce

my boundaries.

Remember, you can only control your behaviors and your boundaries, not

hers.

Good luck

Doug

>

> As I said before, I am new to the group and I am so happy I joined.

The insight is proving to be invaluable. You are all so spot on with

your words. As of now, My mother does not know she has BPD and may never

know.(I wont be telling her BC as I said, she is no longer speaking to

me as I am " dead to her " . Her words, not mine) Truth is, I am not sure I

want her to know because a comment someone else made really rang true

for me. I believe my mom would " excuse " her bad behavior by saying " I

cant help it I have BPD " . She has never been one to admit defeat or take

any blame. On the other hand I would love for her to know so she could

get help and maybe be " normal " (feels like wishful thinking). I really

dont know what I prefer right now. I am a grown woman and wondering if a

mother/daughter realationship is even needed at this point? I have a

great mother-in-law, wonderful friends, amazing kids and the worlds most

supportive husband.

> Anyone else still in a period of NOT speaking? I would like to know

your thoughts and feelings. Or anyone who had an extended time of NOT

speaking.

> Thank you everyone,

> Micimj

>

[Guest guest]

AMEN.  you hit the nail on the head several times. My mother is alive and well

and yet mentally twisted more than ever.  I am NC with her - and although i feel

lighter and free of her disdain and cruel remarks and fire-breathing attacks,

death wishes of every family member, crazy outburts, hatred of every friend i

have had since i was 4, twisted illogical thoughts, narcissism, dr. jekyl and

mr,hyde outbursts  etc. etc.. the grieving process for a mother who is alive  is

quite painful.  I could NEVER tell her that she has BPD - i once mentioned it

and she rode me like i was a horse. She layed into me about everything I ever

did wrong since Kindergarden (i am now 44 years old)   - she dredged up things

that never happened, twisted things to fit her story and accusations, called me

a looser and my husband is a looser (we both hold VERY big jobs, live in a

multimillion dollar apartment and my children are at the top private school in

the country) -

told me i will never amount to anything and I wasted all my years of schooling,

spent too much time on the phone with my friends and my children will be loosers

 too - etc. etc..THe point being - you cannot tell someone who is mentally ill

that there is ANYTHING wrong with them - they will point all the blame on you.

BPD's are toxic - you need to keep them out of your life so you stay healthy and

grounded.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 1:13 PM

Subject: Re: Is it better if they know? Who should tell

them?

There are a couple of problems with saying to someone " I think you have

BPD. "   The first is that, chances are, you aren't a trained mental health

care provider and so aren't really in a position to diagnose (even if

you're absolutely completely positive that that's what it is -- which

sometimes we ARE.) And even if you were trained in the field, it's not

possible for you to be objective about someone you have a relationship

with, like a family member or significant other. Personal feelings and

agendas, conscious and unconscious, ALWAYS get in the way of objectivity.

The second is that most personality disorders aren't cut-and-dried or

simple. Just look at the massive restructuring of the notion of

" personality disorder " that's going to happen with the upcoming rewrite of

the DSM. Urgh. I mean, my nada is quite BPD-ish, but is not self-harming.

She also has strong OCPD traits, often presenting more strongly than her

BPD-ish ones. And sometimes she's narcissistic, which is not even going to

be an " official " diagnosis anymore in 2013.  So what should I say to her?

" In my non-professional opinion, you have BPD traits and OCPD traits and

sometimes you're just plain self-centered. "   That basically comes down to

" I think you are massively screwed up, " and no one is really going to

respond to that kind of a message very well.

I think the general consensus on this list is usually NOT to say anything

to the suspected BPD, because it's very unlikely that it will do any good.

Either they will reject it totally, or they will (as you suggested) seize

upon it as an excuse to continue to behave badly because they can't " help "

themselves. (i.e. " I have a disorder, that's just the way I am, if you were

a good person you would just put up with my behavior because I have a

condition! " )  Remember, if they were THEMSELVES being deeply distressed by

their behavior, they would already be seeking out help and explanations.

Depending on your personal style and level of aggression, you COULD, if you

wanted, simply bombard her with info on the disorder in non-subtle ways and

hope that she'll pick up on it -- forward her Internet articles about BPD;

order books on BPD from Amazon and have them sent to her house; give books

on BPD to her as Christmas presents, and so on.  But make no mistake --

that's VERY aggressive behavior, and the chances that it will produce the

result you're dreaming of -- that she will read one and go, " Oh my God, so

THAT'S what's wrong with me! I need to find a DBT treatment program today

and get started! " -- are basically zero.

The only plan I think has even a remote chance of succeeding -- and it's

very remote -- is to gently but consistently encourage the BPD to seek out

therapy, and then pray that the therapist is well-trained, recognizes the

disorder for what it is, and might, after a probably lengthy period of

establishing trust with the BPD, be able to nudge the BPD into DBT.  But

honestly...don't bet on it.

It's important to remember that DBT is at the moment pretty much only

available for, and intended for, BPDs who are actively self-harming and

suicidal. And they have to WANT to participate. It calls for a massive

commitment, usually something like three sessions a week for two years.

It's not something you do once an hour every two weeks in your therapist's

office -- although certainly if she went to non-DBT therapy and her

therapist was sharp, the therapist might be able to work with her on

emotional regulation and distress reduction techniques, if she were open to

them. (That's a huge if.)

It's immensely hard to let go of the notion that somehow we might be able

to " fix " the BPD in our lives if we just " do the right thing " .  I'm still

working on that myself, at least monthly (during bad times, DAILY.)  In

addition to wanting them to quit being nasty to us, most of us are capable

of acknowledging that the BPD person is also suffering pretty badly from

their own behavior, and if that someone is close to us, we want to help

ease or end their suffering.  Unfortunately, we ....just can't.  I try to

remember the three " Cs " of codependency: " You did not CAUSE it. You cannot

CURE it. You cannot CONTROL it. "

As for " needing " a mother/daughter relationship -- well, I think we all

" need " that at some level.  Or at the very least we want it desperately.

But if we were unfortunate enough to, say, lose our mother to a car

accident or to cancer or to a heart attack, we would have to learn to live

with the loss, because we often really want -- even " need " -- things we

simply can't have.  The hard part about having a parent who is alive but

unavailable to us for other reasons (such as a severe personality disorder)

is that the hope -- that they will " come around " somehow, or magically " be

fixed " (by us or by others) and become the parent we want/need them to be

-- tends to cling. No one wants to give up all hope.  If the parent dies,

you can let go, usually, after grieving. But letting go of a parent, or

significant other, who is still alive, is really, really tough.

You are greatly blessed to have a strong support system and many good

people to share your life with. I would concentrate on them as much as you

can and try to simply not focus on your troubled mother, particularly if

she has declared you " dead to her. "   Grieving a parent who is still alive

is really hard, but it might be the path to peace. Otherwise you risk

getting stuck spending a ton of mental time and energy on the problem of

" fixing Mom, " and that's very unlikely to be a good investment of your

resources.

Best of luck in any case.

-- Jen H.

> **

>

>

> As I said before, I am new to the group and I am so happy I joined. The

> insight is proving to be invaluable. You are all so spot on with your

> words. As of now, My mother does not know she has BPD and may never know.(I

> wont be telling her BC as I said, she is no longer speaking to me as I am

> " dead to her " . Her words, not mine) Truth is, I am not sure I want her to

> know because a comment someone else made really rang true for me. I believe

> my mom would " excuse " her bad behavior by saying " I cant help it I have

> BPD " . She has never been one to admit defeat or take any blame. On the

> other hand I would love for her to know so she could get help and maybe be

> " normal " (feels like wishful thinking). I really dont know what I prefer

> right now. I am a grown woman and wondering if a mother/daughter

> realationship is even needed at this point? I have a great mother-in-law,

> wonderful friends, amazing kids and the worlds most supportive husband.

> Anyone else still in a period of NOT speaking? I would like to know your

> thoughts and feelings. Or anyone who had an extended time of NOT speaking.

> Thank you everyone,

> Micimj

>

> 

>

[Guest guest]

AMEN.  you hit the nail on the head several times. My mother is alive and well

and yet mentally twisted more than ever.  I am NC with her - and although i feel

lighter and free of her disdain and cruel remarks and fire-breathing attacks,

death wishes of every family member, crazy outburts, hatred of every friend i

have had since i was 4, twisted illogical thoughts, narcissism, dr. jekyl and

mr,hyde outbursts  etc. etc.. the grieving process for a mother who is alive  is

quite painful.  I could NEVER tell her that she has BPD - i once mentioned it

and she rode me like i was a horse. She layed into me about everything I ever

did wrong since Kindergarden (i am now 44 years old)   - she dredged up things

that never happened, twisted things to fit her story and accusations, called me

a looser and my husband is a looser (we both hold VERY big jobs, live in a

multimillion dollar apartment and my children are at the top private school in

the country) -

told me i will never amount to anything and I wasted all my years of schooling,

spent too much time on the phone with my friends and my children will be loosers

 too - etc. etc..THe point being - you cannot tell someone who is mentally ill

that there is ANYTHING wrong with them - they will point all the blame on you.

BPD's are toxic - you need to keep them out of your life so you stay healthy and

grounded.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 1:13 PM

Subject: Re: Is it better if they know? Who should tell

them?

There are a couple of problems with saying to someone " I think you have

BPD. "   The first is that, chances are, you aren't a trained mental health

care provider and so aren't really in a position to diagnose (even if

you're absolutely completely positive that that's what it is -- which

sometimes we ARE.) And even if you were trained in the field, it's not

possible for you to be objective about someone you have a relationship

with, like a family member or significant other. Personal feelings and

agendas, conscious and unconscious, ALWAYS get in the way of objectivity.

The second is that most personality disorders aren't cut-and-dried or

simple. Just look at the massive restructuring of the notion of

" personality disorder " that's going to happen with the upcoming rewrite of

the DSM. Urgh. I mean, my nada is quite BPD-ish, but is not self-harming.

She also has strong OCPD traits, often presenting more strongly than her

BPD-ish ones. And sometimes she's narcissistic, which is not even going to

be an " official " diagnosis anymore in 2013.  So what should I say to her?

" In my non-professional opinion, you have BPD traits and OCPD traits and

sometimes you're just plain self-centered. "   That basically comes down to

" I think you are massively screwed up, " and no one is really going to

respond to that kind of a message very well.

I think the general consensus on this list is usually NOT to say anything

to the suspected BPD, because it's very unlikely that it will do any good.

Either they will reject it totally, or they will (as you suggested) seize

upon it as an excuse to continue to behave badly because they can't " help "

themselves. (i.e. " I have a disorder, that's just the way I am, if you were

a good person you would just put up with my behavior because I have a

condition! " )  Remember, if they were THEMSELVES being deeply distressed by

their behavior, they would already be seeking out help and explanations.

Depending on your personal style and level of aggression, you COULD, if you

wanted, simply bombard her with info on the disorder in non-subtle ways and

hope that she'll pick up on it -- forward her Internet articles about BPD;

order books on BPD from Amazon and have them sent to her house; give books

on BPD to her as Christmas presents, and so on.  But make no mistake --

that's VERY aggressive behavior, and the chances that it will produce the

result you're dreaming of -- that she will read one and go, " Oh my God, so

THAT'S what's wrong with me! I need to find a DBT treatment program today

and get started! " -- are basically zero.

The only plan I think has even a remote chance of succeeding -- and it's

very remote -- is to gently but consistently encourage the BPD to seek out

therapy, and then pray that the therapist is well-trained, recognizes the

disorder for what it is, and might, after a probably lengthy period of

establishing trust with the BPD, be able to nudge the BPD into DBT.  But

honestly...don't bet on it.

It's important to remember that DBT is at the moment pretty much only

available for, and intended for, BPDs who are actively self-harming and

suicidal. And they have to WANT to participate. It calls for a massive

commitment, usually something like three sessions a week for two years.

It's not something you do once an hour every two weeks in your therapist's

office -- although certainly if she went to non-DBT therapy and her

therapist was sharp, the therapist might be able to work with her on

emotional regulation and distress reduction techniques, if she were open to

them. (That's a huge if.)

It's immensely hard to let go of the notion that somehow we might be able

to " fix " the BPD in our lives if we just " do the right thing " .  I'm still

working on that myself, at least monthly (during bad times, DAILY.)  In

addition to wanting them to quit being nasty to us, most of us are capable

of acknowledging that the BPD person is also suffering pretty badly from

their own behavior, and if that someone is close to us, we want to help

ease or end their suffering.  Unfortunately, we ....just can't.  I try to

remember the three " Cs " of codependency: " You did not CAUSE it. You cannot

CURE it. You cannot CONTROL it. "

As for " needing " a mother/daughter relationship -- well, I think we all

" need " that at some level.  Or at the very least we want it desperately.

But if we were unfortunate enough to, say, lose our mother to a car

accident or to cancer or to a heart attack, we would have to learn to live

with the loss, because we often really want -- even " need " -- things we

simply can't have.  The hard part about having a parent who is alive but

unavailable to us for other reasons (such as a severe personality disorder)

is that the hope -- that they will " come around " somehow, or magically " be

fixed " (by us or by others) and become the parent we want/need them to be

-- tends to cling. No one wants to give up all hope.  If the parent dies,

you can let go, usually, after grieving. But letting go of a parent, or

significant other, who is still alive, is really, really tough.

You are greatly blessed to have a strong support system and many good

people to share your life with. I would concentrate on them as much as you

can and try to simply not focus on your troubled mother, particularly if

she has declared you " dead to her. "   Grieving a parent who is still alive

is really hard, but it might be the path to peace. Otherwise you risk

getting stuck spending a ton of mental time and energy on the problem of

" fixing Mom, " and that's very unlikely to be a good investment of your

resources.

Best of luck in any case.

-- Jen H.

> **

>

>

> As I said before, I am new to the group and I am so happy I joined. The

> insight is proving to be invaluable. You are all so spot on with your

> words. As of now, My mother does not know she has BPD and may never know.(I

> wont be telling her BC as I said, she is no longer speaking to me as I am

> " dead to her " . Her words, not mine) Truth is, I am not sure I want her to

> know because a comment someone else made really rang true for me. I believe

> my mom would " excuse " her bad behavior by saying " I cant help it I have

> BPD " . She has never been one to admit defeat or take any blame. On the

> other hand I would love for her to know so she could get help and maybe be

> " normal " (feels like wishful thinking). I really dont know what I prefer

> right now. I am a grown woman and wondering if a mother/daughter

> realationship is even needed at this point? I have a great mother-in-law,

> wonderful friends, amazing kids and the worlds most supportive husband.

> Anyone else still in a period of NOT speaking? I would like to know your

> thoughts and feelings. Or anyone who had an extended time of NOT speaking.

> Thank you everyone,

> Micimj

>

> 

>