help with nada's phone calls

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Just looking for some support and advice on how to deal with nada calling every

day until I answer the phone or call her back? I've had this conversation with

her before but sometimes she gets in these moods and seems to conveniently

" forget " what the boundaries are.

Wondering for those of you who are LC, how do you maintain the telephone

boundaries you've already established when she disregards them after some time?

Particularly for waify queens? Usually she acts all waify but if I express any

negative emotion to her, no matter how calm and rationally, or attempt to

establish any boundary, the queen comes storming out and it triggers me. So a

part of me is feeling fearful about maintaining them, too. I guess it's just a

matter of mustering up the courage and facing the dragon....and also being a

broken record.

But any suggestions for the ways yall have handled this are greatly appreciated!

-T

[Guest guest]

I empathize; I think Waif behaviors are harder to deal with than any of the

others. My nada became more Waify as she got older, but I was in virtually No

Contact with her by the time the real super-Waif behaviors started.

You have discovered the truth about setting boundaries. The unpleasant, hard

truth is that boundary setting and boundary maintenance is NOT a one-time event:

its an ongoing process (unless you go totally No Contact temporarily or

permanently.)

You have also discovered that boundaries are not about getting nada to

understand your needs, and not about getting her to agree and comply voluntarily

with your boundaries. Your desire is for nada to change HER behaviors

accordingly from her new understanding, or from a newly-awakened sense of

empathy, but nada isn't capable of that.

Setting and maintaining your boundaries with nada are not like dealing with

another reasonable, empathetic adult. You can say to a relatively mentally

healthy friend or foo member, " Please don't call me x times a day, its not

working for me. Thanks for understanding. " And then you can work out a

mutually agreeable compromise. But handling someone with bpd is more like

managing a very determined and rather spoiled 3 year old who wants ice cream

before dinner.

The three year old lacks the emotional maturity/cognitive development to be

reasoned with, and lacks the capacity to care very much (if at all) about your

needs of feelings. You can't sit down and have an adult, reasoned discussion

with the 3 year old about the various good reasons why she is not going to be

getting any ice cream just before dinner.

All you can do with the three year old, who will keep asking you for the ice

cream and may even resort to climbing up to the freezer and getting it herself,

is just keep saying " No " , and perhaps attempt to distract her. If the 3 year

old pitches a tantrum out of frustration or to elicit alarm or pity out of you,

just ride it out.

Giving in to tantrums or other negative or manipulative behaviors does nothing

but teach the 3 year old very effectively what works (and what works the

quickest) to get you to change *your* behaviors.

If you respond or give in to your nada when she sounds hurt, guess what nada

will do then next time she encounters a boundary of yours? Correct: nada will

probably bypass wheedling and feigned forgetfulness and go straight to pitiful

little-lost-waif, with the tremor of held-back tears in her voice.

So, maybe shift your perspective and think of your nada as being a very tall

three year old, and just calmly and gently hold your ground. " No, sorry

sweetheart; no ice cream before dinner. You can have a big bowl of ice cream

after dinner, though. "

And keep reminding yourself that you are not responsible for your nada's

feelings, about anything. Nada is an adult; her feelings are hers to own and

carry. Its not your job to be your mother's mommy, or to keep her happy; its

her job to take care of her own needs and make herself happy. (Until she

reaches a point where she can no longer care for her own needs or safety.)

I hope that helps.

-Annie

>

> Hi All,

>

> Just looking for some support and advice on how to deal with nada calling

every day until I answer the phone or call her back? I've had this conversation

with her before but sometimes she gets in these moods and seems to conveniently

" forget " what the boundaries are.

>

> Wondering for those of you who are LC, how do you maintain the telephone

boundaries you've already established when she disregards them after some time?

Particularly for waify queens? Usually she acts all waify but if I express any

negative emotion to her, no matter how calm and rationally, or attempt to

establish any boundary, the queen comes storming out and it triggers me. So a

part of me is feeling fearful about maintaining them, too. I guess it's just a

matter of mustering up the courage and facing the dragon....and also being a

broken record.

>

> But any suggestions for the ways yall have handled this are greatly

appreciated!

>

>

> -T

>

[Guest guest]

I empathize; I think Waif behaviors are harder to deal with than any of the

others. My nada became more Waify as she got older, but I was in virtually No

Contact with her by the time the real super-Waif behaviors started.

You have discovered the truth about setting boundaries. The unpleasant, hard

truth is that boundary setting and boundary maintenance is NOT a one-time event:

its an ongoing process (unless you go totally No Contact temporarily or

permanently.)

You have also discovered that boundaries are not about getting nada to

understand your needs, and not about getting her to agree and comply voluntarily

with your boundaries. Your desire is for nada to change HER behaviors

accordingly from her new understanding, or from a newly-awakened sense of

empathy, but nada isn't capable of that.

Setting and maintaining your boundaries with nada are not like dealing with

another reasonable, empathetic adult. You can say to a relatively mentally

healthy friend or foo member, " Please don't call me x times a day, its not

working for me. Thanks for understanding. " And then you can work out a

mutually agreeable compromise. But handling someone with bpd is more like

managing a very determined and rather spoiled 3 year old who wants ice cream

before dinner.

The three year old lacks the emotional maturity/cognitive development to be

reasoned with, and lacks the capacity to care very much (if at all) about your

needs of feelings. You can't sit down and have an adult, reasoned discussion

with the 3 year old about the various good reasons why she is not going to be

getting any ice cream just before dinner.

All you can do with the three year old, who will keep asking you for the ice

cream and may even resort to climbing up to the freezer and getting it herself,

is just keep saying " No " , and perhaps attempt to distract her. If the 3 year

old pitches a tantrum out of frustration or to elicit alarm or pity out of you,

just ride it out.

Giving in to tantrums or other negative or manipulative behaviors does nothing

but teach the 3 year old very effectively what works (and what works the

quickest) to get you to change *your* behaviors.

If you respond or give in to your nada when she sounds hurt, guess what nada

will do then next time she encounters a boundary of yours? Correct: nada will

probably bypass wheedling and feigned forgetfulness and go straight to pitiful

little-lost-waif, with the tremor of held-back tears in her voice.

So, maybe shift your perspective and think of your nada as being a very tall

three year old, and just calmly and gently hold your ground. " No, sorry

sweetheart; no ice cream before dinner. You can have a big bowl of ice cream

after dinner, though. "

And keep reminding yourself that you are not responsible for your nada's

feelings, about anything. Nada is an adult; her feelings are hers to own and

carry. Its not your job to be your mother's mommy, or to keep her happy; its

her job to take care of her own needs and make herself happy. (Until she

reaches a point where she can no longer care for her own needs or safety.)

I hope that helps.

-Annie

>

> Hi All,

>

> Just looking for some support and advice on how to deal with nada calling

every day until I answer the phone or call her back? I've had this conversation

with her before but sometimes she gets in these moods and seems to conveniently

" forget " what the boundaries are.

>

> Wondering for those of you who are LC, how do you maintain the telephone

boundaries you've already established when she disregards them after some time?

Particularly for waify queens? Usually she acts all waify but if I express any

negative emotion to her, no matter how calm and rationally, or attempt to

establish any boundary, the queen comes storming out and it triggers me. So a

part of me is feeling fearful about maintaining them, too. I guess it's just a

matter of mustering up the courage and facing the dragon....and also being a

broken record.

>

> But any suggestions for the ways yall have handled this are greatly

appreciated!

>

>

> -T

>

[Guest guest]

Anuria - I'm always in awe of the wonderful thoughts you share and great advice.

I know your response wasn't meant for me but these 2 tidbits really grabbed me

as well. My nada will manage to do that quivery lip/voice thing and it's so

uncomfortable to watch. How do they do that anyway?

And it's always good to be reminded that her feelings are her own, it's not my

job to make her happy and I am not my " mother's mommy. " It's so easy to fall

into that role especially now that my nada is getting so much older. And because

she's so negative, I keep trying to stay upbeat and happy hoping it will change

the mood of my visit. May as well try to empty a lake with a straw.

Thanks for all your wise comments.

>

>

> If you respond or give in to your nada when she sounds hurt, guess what nada

will do then next time she encounters a boundary of yours? Correct: nada will

probably bypass wheedling and feigned forgetfulness and go straight to pitiful

little-lost-waif, with the tremor of held-back tears in her voice.

>

> And keep reminding yourself that you are not responsible for your nada's

feelings, about anything. Nada is an adult; her feelings are hers to own and

carry. Its not your job to be your mother's mommy, or to keep her happy; its

her job to take care of her own needs and make herself happy. (Until she

reaches a point where she can no longer care for her own needs or safety.)

>

> I hope that helps.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

Hi Annie,

Yes, this does help very much!

You're right; this takes a shift in my perspective (b/c nada is incapable of

shifting her own), as well as a shift in my expectations of her. Emotionally

nadas and fadas are 3 year olds, 3 year olds who, like an actual 3 year old,

test the boundaries to see what they can get away with. So yeah, thinking about

this in terms of me being the adult and consistently maintaining the boundaries

with her, the 3 year old, is really helpful.

It is also so helpful (not to mention relieving) to be reminded that she is

responsible for her happiness and taking care of her needs. This is where the

fear part of it comes in for me, I think; a part of me is still wrapped up in

the little girl who was taught to take care of nada, and if I " failed " there was

hell to pay. That waify-queen dynamic. ::shudder::

Shudder as I may, though, I know now as an adult that it is not my job to take

care of her. Staying mindful of that really does help me feel enabled and

entitled to put these boundaries up again and again. Thank you for the reminder

and for your thoughtful response.

-T

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > Just looking for some support and advice on how to deal with nada calling

every day until I answer the phone or call her back? I've had this conversation

with her before but sometimes she gets in these moods and seems to conveniently

" forget " what the boundaries are.

> >

> > Wondering for those of you who are LC, how do you maintain the telephone

boundaries you've already established when she disregards them after some time?

Particularly for waify queens? Usually she acts all waify but if I express any

negative emotion to her, no matter how calm and rationally, or attempt to

establish any boundary, the queen comes storming out and it triggers me. So a

part of me is feeling fearful about maintaining them, too. I guess it's just a

matter of mustering up the courage and facing the dragon....and also being a

broken record.

> >

> > But any suggestions for the ways yall have handled this are greatly

appreciated!

> >

> >

> > -T

> >

>