Grandparents' rights update

[Guest guest]

Hiya everyone,

So my parents are trying to assert " grandparents rights " after five years NC due

to them making disparaging comments about my children to their faces and hitting

them (or maybe just one of them, but still). We hired a lawyer, who last week

delivered to us a letter written by their lawyer, three pages long with about

twenty bulleted items detailing the multiple times they've shown up

unannounced/uninvited to our house and my workplace and stating that they only

wanted to " drop off gifts " , " chat " , " say hi " .

What's comical about this is that with one exception, all of these visits

occurred after I explicitly asked them not to stop by uninvited. So essentially,

their lawyer has just detailed almost every episode in which they are acting in

direct defiance of my request.

Oh yes, and they also allege that we've been " destroying " the gifts that they've

been dropping off, which they claim is a form of child abuse. We have in fact

been showing the kids the gifts, emphasizing that we don't believe we should be

encouraging relationships with people that are mean to us and that therefore

these gifts are inappropriate, and then taking the gifts to a local shelter for

abused women and children. The kids have been remarkably okay with this.

In my state, the burden of proof is on the grandparents to show that a. their

presence in the children's life is in the children's best interests, b. the

children's parents were unfit to make the decision not to allow the grandparents

to have contact, and c. that they were a significant presence (as in primary

caregiver) prior to the parents' decision. With all of my children, their

grandparents have been out of their lives longer than they've been in them. To

argue that after five years of separation, during which all of the children have

been successful in a school for gifted children, participated in sports and

music lessons, and basically charmed the pants off of anyone who's met them,

that they're suffering for want of mean grandparents is frankly outrageous. I

don't think they stand a chance.

At the same time, I am horrified at what they might try to prove point b. above.

These are people with a long history of taking things waaaaaay out of context

and using it as " proof " of whatever paranoia is beseiging them at the moment.

Example: in high school I was accused of doing drugs because I was doing Jane

Fonda workouts before getting ready for school. I'm feeling like I did as a

child, having to have a rock-solid reason for doing anything lest it be

construed as evidence of my unworthiness or the subject of mockery. I feel

physically ill. If I buy a bottle of wine it'll be " proof " that I'm an

alcoholic. If I buy new underwear it'll be " proof " that I'm bringing home

strange and unstable men. If I take my dog for a walk around the block it'll be

" proof " that I routinely leave my children unattended in the house. Dog poop in

the yard? Unsanitary living conditions. The kids have cavities? I must not be

providing them with toothbrushes. I just feel like every single " happens to

normal people " thing I do will be open to scrutiny and malicious interpretation.

And then I get mad at myself because by letting myself feel this way, they're

winning, at least on one front. Grrrr.

Anyway, my husband and I have decided that we're simply not going to reply to

this letter, at least not right away. Considering what they have to prove, this

letter does nothing to advance their position and if we were to respond it would

only be evidence that we want to engage with them, which we clearly don't. I

just wish I could finish my Diet Coke without throwing up.

[Guest guest]

I'm so sorry you are experiencing this harassment, but glad you hired a lawyer

to handle it for you. Hopefully from now on your lawyer can run interference

for you, so you have as little contact with your energetically

personality-disordered parents as possible.

I agree, its both ironic and hilarious that your parents have detailed each

incidence of their own creepy stalking behavior! Its like they're shooting

themselves in the foot. " Yes, we have been stalking and harassing writermanque,

and we did it on this date, and this date, and this date, etc! " They must have

found either an incompetent, or a shyster, or a desperately bad lawyer who

agreed to represent them; they don't have a legal leg to stand on (in my

opinion) and so their lawyer is just taking them for a very expensive ride.

Hang in there; this harassing behavior has got to be excruciatingly aggravating

for you but sooner or later it will pass (when your parents run out of money, or

when your lawyer has enough evidence to slap them with a restraining order or

countersuit, perhaps.)

best wishes,

-Annie

>

> Hiya everyone,

>

> So my parents are trying to assert " grandparents rights " after five years NC

due to them making disparaging comments about my children to their faces and

hitting them (or maybe just one of them, but still). We hired a lawyer, who last

week delivered to us a letter written by their lawyer, three pages long with

about twenty bulleted items detailing the multiple times they've shown up

unannounced/uninvited to our house and my workplace and stating that they only

wanted to " drop off gifts " , " chat " , " say hi " .

>

> What's comical about this is that with one exception, all of these visits

occurred after I explicitly asked them not to stop by uninvited. So essentially,

their lawyer has just detailed almost every episode in which they are acting in

direct defiance of my request.

>

> Oh yes, and they also allege that we've been " destroying " the gifts that

they've been dropping off, which they claim is a form of child abuse. We have in

fact been showing the kids the gifts, emphasizing that we don't believe we

should be encouraging relationships with people that are mean to us and that

therefore these gifts are inappropriate, and then taking the gifts to a local

shelter for abused women and children. The kids have been remarkably okay with

this.

>

> In my state, the burden of proof is on the grandparents to show that a. their

presence in the children's life is in the children's best interests, b. the

children's parents were unfit to make the decision not to allow the grandparents

to have contact, and c. that they were a significant presence (as in primary

caregiver) prior to the parents' decision. With all of my children, their

grandparents have been out of their lives longer than they've been in them. To

argue that after five years of separation, during which all of the children have

been successful in a school for gifted children, participated in sports and

music lessons, and basically charmed the pants off of anyone who's met them,

that they're suffering for want of mean grandparents is frankly outrageous. I

don't think they stand a chance.

>

> At the same time, I am horrified at what they might try to prove point b.

above. These are people with a long history of taking things waaaaaay out of

context and using it as " proof " of whatever paranoia is beseiging them at the

moment. Example: in high school I was accused of doing drugs because I was doing

Jane Fonda workouts before getting ready for school. I'm feeling like I did as a

child, having to have a rock-solid reason for doing anything lest it be

construed as evidence of my unworthiness or the subject of mockery. I feel

physically ill. If I buy a bottle of wine it'll be " proof " that I'm an

alcoholic. If I buy new underwear it'll be " proof " that I'm bringing home

strange and unstable men. If I take my dog for a walk around the block it'll be

" proof " that I routinely leave my children unattended in the house. Dog poop in

the yard? Unsanitary living conditions. The kids have cavities? I must not be

providing them with toothbrushes. I just feel like every single " happens to

normal people " thing I do will be open to scrutiny and malicious interpretation.

>

> And then I get mad at myself because by letting myself feel this way, they're

winning, at least on one front. Grrrr.

>

> Anyway, my husband and I have decided that we're simply not going to reply to

this letter, at least not right away. Considering what they have to prove, this

letter does nothing to advance their position and if we were to respond it would

only be evidence that we want to engage with them, which we clearly don't. I

just wish I could finish my Diet Coke without throwing up.

>

[Guest guest]

You are clearly being the best parents possible to your children. Any judge

will see that right away.

It's horrible to feel like your every move is being watched. It's not fair that

you have to be extra aware of your actions. Hopefully it will be very

temporary.

Best of luck to you.

Jen

>

> Hiya everyone,

>

> So my parents are trying to assert " grandparents rights " after five years NC

due to them making disparaging comments about my children to their faces and

hitting them (or maybe just one of them, but still). We hired a lawyer, who last

week delivered to us a letter written by their lawyer, three pages long with

about twenty bulleted items detailing the multiple times they've shown up

unannounced/uninvited to our house and my workplace and stating that they only

wanted to " drop off gifts " , " chat " , " say hi " .

>

> What's comical about this is that with one exception, all of these visits

occurred after I explicitly asked them not to stop by uninvited. So essentially,

their lawyer has just detailed almost every episode in which they are acting in

direct defiance of my request.

>

> Oh yes, and they also allege that we've been " destroying " the gifts that

they've been dropping off, which they claim is a form of child abuse. We have in

fact been showing the kids the gifts, emphasizing that we don't believe we

should be encouraging relationships with people that are mean to us and that

therefore these gifts are inappropriate, and then taking the gifts to a local

shelter for abused women and children. The kids have been remarkably okay with

this.

>

> In my state, the burden of proof is on the grandparents to show that a. their

presence in the children's life is in the children's best interests, b. the

children's parents were unfit to make the decision not to allow the grandparents

to have contact, and c. that they were a significant presence (as in primary

caregiver) prior to the parents' decision. With all of my children, their

grandparents have been out of their lives longer than they've been in them. To

argue that after five years of separation, during which all of the children have

been successful in a school for gifted children, participated in sports and

music lessons, and basically charmed the pants off of anyone who's met them,

that they're suffering for want of mean grandparents is frankly outrageous. I

don't think they stand a chance.

>

> At the same time, I am horrified at what they might try to prove point b.

above. These are people with a long history of taking things waaaaaay out of

context and using it as " proof " of whatever paranoia is beseiging them at the

moment. Example: in high school I was accused of doing drugs because I was doing

Jane Fonda workouts before getting ready for school. I'm feeling like I did as a

child, having to have a rock-solid reason for doing anything lest it be

construed as evidence of my unworthiness or the subject of mockery. I feel

physically ill. If I buy a bottle of wine it'll be " proof " that I'm an

alcoholic. If I buy new underwear it'll be " proof " that I'm bringing home

strange and unstable men. If I take my dog for a walk around the block it'll be

" proof " that I routinely leave my children unattended in the house. Dog poop in

the yard? Unsanitary living conditions. The kids have cavities? I must not be

providing them with toothbrushes. I just feel like every single " happens to

normal people " thing I do will be open to scrutiny and malicious interpretation.

>

> And then I get mad at myself because by letting myself feel this way, they're

winning, at least on one front. Grrrr.

>

> Anyway, my husband and I have decided that we're simply not going to reply to

this letter, at least not right away. Considering what they have to prove, this

letter does nothing to advance their position and if we were to respond it would

only be evidence that we want to engage with them, which we clearly don't. I

just wish I could finish my Diet Coke without throwing up.

>

[Guest guest]

I can only imagine the bind you find yourselves in. This sentence says a lot...

" Considering what they have to prove, this letter does nothing to advance their

position and if we were to respond it would only be evidence that we want to

engage with them... "

Obviously, this thing is over the fact that they still want to engage. In fact,

it's the WHOLE thing. So although the first response of caring parents is to

rush to the barricades crying, " We are not abusing our children! " and to rebuff

this legal attack, that's exactly what they want. As KOs, we're not dealing with

the real world, we're in Oz. In Oz the laws are different. A nonresponse to the

letter is the sane and sensible reaction, IMO. Only engage as a last resort.

Perhaps it would be helpful to talk with the lawyer about that--saying that you

wish to respond only if ordered by the court or charged with a real lawsuit,

nothing less.

Non-KOs would see this as letting a situation escalate unnecessarily. But KOs

know that more often than not, " escalation " under imagined threat is exactly the

desired effect. When PD parents are faced with actually having to PROVE their

cases legally under scrutiny of the real world, they often withdraw. Scrutiny

and the burden of proof don't fit well in Oz. When the KO strategically ignores

and evades until the PD parent must make official charges or stand down--mostly,

they stand down. My guess is this lawsuit would fade away like Dracula facing

the dawn.

Good luck, and don't let them fake you out.

AFB

[Guest guest]

Oh boy, what a mess. I'm really sorry you have to go through this,

but I do think you're right: I don't think they stand a chance.

As for the worry about being judged incorrectly for innocent & normal

actions, I can COMPLETELY understand that one! And the only advise I

have for you on that is to keep telling yourself that it is perfectly

ok for an adult woman to have a bottle of wine in her own home, to

purchase new underwear, and to take the dog for a walk!

I know it's easier said than done, but really, it is ok for you to do

these things =) There is a big difference between having an

occasional drink & being an alcoholic; between buying some new undies

& being questionable with sexual activity, etc.

But still, it's a horrible stress to have to deal with, and I

sincerely feel for you and your kids. Hang in there & try to do

something nice for yourself if you can, even if it's just a 30 minute

bubble bath with some nicely scented candles & your favorite relaxing

music!

Wishing you the best!