Re: hello

[Guest guest]

Welcome Alysia! Congratulations on your new baby. I am Tina, mommy to

Blake who is 5 months.

Tina

Mommy to Blake

born 4-2-00

visit Blake's web site at http://www.growthspurts.com/view.asp?s=20969

[Guest guest]

Alysia,

Welcome to the list. I am a mom of two. Kaija is almost nine and Zaid (my

nursling) will be three in October.

Wendi

http://www.lactivist.com

breastfeeding resources and info

hello

Hello all! My name is Alysia. I am 19 years old and live in Missouri. I am

mommy to 3 1/2 month old dd Kylie. I look forward to hearing and sharing

experiences with everyone.

Alysia

_________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at

http://profiles.msn.com.

Give the Gift of Life Breastfeed!

http://www.lactivist.com

[Guest guest]

Welcome, Alysia,

I am Amy Lynn, stay at home/work from home mom to (2-1/2) and

7 months.

Amy Lynn

hello

>

>Hello all! My name is Alysia. I am 19 years old and live in Missouri. I

am

>mommy to 3 1/2 month old dd Kylie. I look forward to hearing and sharing

>experiences with everyone.

>

>Alysia

>

>_________________________________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

>

>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at

>http://profiles.msn.com.

>

>

>Give the Gift of Life Breastfeed!

>http://www.lactivist.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Welcome, Peggy,

This is a wonderful group of women with vast experiences and resources.

Feel free to ask questions as you need so that we can help you succeed!

Amy Lynn

mom to (1-25-98) and (2-10-00)

Hello

>

>Hi, my name is Peggy. I am currently pregnant with my third child.

>I am due on December 28th. My daughter, , will be 9 in

>December. My other daughter, Maya, just turned 4.

>

>I nursed until she was 2 1/2. She weaned herself when she

>developed blisters in her mouth due to a high fever. It hurt her to

>nurse so she stopped. I nursed Maya until she was 4 months old. I

>had to switch her to formula when I realized that I was not producing

>enough milk to satisfy her. I thought it was due to major stress and

>illness on my part. I kept expressing milk in the hopes of starting

>to nurse again after I was feeling better and we had moved.

>Unfortunately, I never was able to resume nursing successfully. It

>broke my heart and made me very depressed. I really hope that I can

>successfully nurse this baby for a long time.

>

>Take Care,

>Peggy

>

>

>

>

>Give the Gift of Life Breastfeed!

>http://www.lactivist.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/22/00 11:40:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

burley4@... writes:

> Hi, my name is Peggy. I am currently pregnant with my third child.

> I am due on December 28th. My daughter, , will be 9 in

> December. My other daughter, Maya, just turned 4.

>

Hi and Welcome I am Rhonda SAHM to five daughters my baby just turned one

and still is nursing strong : ) congratulations on your upcoming arrival. : )

looking forward to getting to know you.

Rhonda

[Guest guest]

Welcome to all of our new additions! I am , Mama to 3 wonderful

boys. Jake is 6 1/2, Clay just turned 3 and Ty is 7 months old. My dh is

and he is my wonderful support in all ways. This is a great place

for advice and support.

[Guest guest]

How about choosing only open meetings to attend?

Let me know what you think.

L

[Guest guest]

> After 30 years of casual drug use and mostly non-problematic

> drinking, I found myself approaching midlife and not dealing with

it

> real well and, well, you guessed it - the drinking took over.

But it sounds like you have taken over now, or have you? Or has

AA? Or has your employer?

> You see, as a condition of employment (20 year career here,

folks), I

> have to remain in " aftercare " for an additional 12 months. Of

course,

> this entails mandatory AA meetings and working the steps with a

> sponsor.

Is that legal? Or is it coersion?

> I do not bash AA or freely express my deep disagreements with AA's

> sacred texts in the twice-monthly meetings I am required to

attend,

> out of respect for the people there who are also trying to get

well.

If you want them to get well, why do you remain quiet? Being

brain-washed doesn't equate to getting well. Assisting in that

brain-washing, by appearing to agree with it, even if you don't,

doesn't help them either.

> So I welcome this forum, and look forward to reading your many

> insightful musings and occasionally contributing my own thoughts,

or

> venting, as needed. This, I hope, will provide the necessary

> counterpoint which I desire, and keep me sane over the coming year.

I am very sorry you have been coerced into AA, whether that

coersion is legal or not. At the least, try to find someone who

will sign your meeting slips before the meeting begins, so you can

leave.

[Guest guest]

Hi Doc

Welcome. I am thinkinh of asking you if I could fwd your post on,

but I'm not too well at the moment so hold that for the time being.

I apologize therfore for the apprently gruiff response below -

however it was a point I thought I ought to make.

> Hello, lovers of truth, justice, and the American Way.

We may be allies in the War on Camelfuckers(*), and in fact I am

extremely grateful for the many advances, scientific and

humanitarian, that America has given the world. However, even if I

were American I would not be alover of the " American Way. " AA is

quinetessentially a part of it, imo.

P.

(*) This will doubtless be derided on sight as bigotry by some, and

needs explanation. Ayatollah Khomeini has publicly stated that the

menstruating woman is uncleaner than a camel, plus alot of other

unsavoury things. It is this form of disgusting, msogynistic

pathological terror of women, sex and life itself which is imo at the

root of beliefs of the lunatic necrophiliac ISlamic extremists like

al Qaeda, Khomeini and the Taliban that threaten to bring yet more

death and horror to the world that I refer to - it is a bitter

reference to their mysogynism which if I were healthier emotionally

and physically I'd probably avoid, but I happen to be pretty pissed

right now.

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete

Please accept my apologies. Somehow, I knew that that line would get

me in trouble, but I got caught up in the old Reeves/Superman

schtick. I forget what a wonderfully international community it is

that this internet gizmo puts me in touch with.

It is true that AA is a peculiarly American institution. Of this I am

not proud. This, and the Ford Pinto. And Spam. I could go on . . .

As for the " war " , I will digress from the focus of this group but

briefly: Of this, too, I am not proud. It is unfortunate that many of

my countrymen think it a good thing, and somehow useful, to bomb the

bejeesus out of an unfortunate country which has already suffered too

much, spending billions in the process. Had we spent these billions

on humanitarian aid instead, had we made any honest attempt to

alleviate the ignorance and poverty and disenfranchisement of so many

people which is at the heart of the crisis, well . . . who knows.

I wish you well.

Regards

Doc

> > Hello, lovers of truth, justice, and the American Way.

>

> We may be allies in the War on Camelfuckers(*), and in fact I am

> extremely grateful for the many advances, scientific and

> humanitarian, that America has given the world. However, even if I

> were American I would not be alover of the " American Way. " AA is

> quinetessentially a part of it, imo.

>

> P.

>

> (*) This will doubtless be derided on sight as bigotry by some,

and

> needs explanation. Ayatollah Khomeini has publicly stated that the

> menstruating woman is uncleaner than a camel, plus alot of other

> unsavoury things. It is this form of disgusting, msogynistic

> pathological terror of women, sex and life itself which is imo at

the

> root of beliefs of the lunatic necrophiliac ISlamic extremists like

> al Qaeda, Khomeini and the Taliban that threaten to bring yet more

> death and horror to the world that I refer to - it is a bitter

> reference to their mysogynism which if I were healthier emotionally

> and physically I'd probably avoid, but I happen to be pretty

pissed

> right now.

[Guest guest]

> > > Hello, lovers of truth, justice, and the American Way.

> >

> > We may be allies in the War on Camelfuckers(*), and in fact I am

> > extremely grateful for the many advances, scientific and

> > humanitarian, that America has given the world. However, even

if I

> > were American I would not be alover of the " American Way. " AA is

> > quinetessentially a part of it, imo.

> >

> > P.

>

>

> Even if I were British I would not be a lover of the British Way

> whose blundering imperialistic history resulted in the creation of

> the State of Israel and complicated Afghanistan's history with

> staggering brutal oppression which left that country in ruins. Of

> course if we are talking about the British Way that is responsible

> for tea and crumpets and Devonshire clotted cream, I think I might

> learn to love that. Oh, I guess America is also partly the result

of

> Britain's imperialistic blunders...so there is actually much of

the

> British Way that I love. Question: Where does the British Way end

and

> the American Way begin?

They are the same way, just that the Americans are better at it

(like everything else).

[Guest guest]

> > > > Hello, lovers of truth, justice, and the American Way.

> > >

> > > We may be allies in the War on Camelfuckers(*), and in fact I

am

> > > extremely grateful for the many advances, scientific and

> > > humanitarian, that America has given the world. However, even

> if I

> > > were American I would not be alover of the " American Way. " AA

is

> > > quinetessentially a part of it, imo.

> > >

> > > P.

> >

> >

> > Even if I were British I would not be a lover of the British Way

> > whose blundering imperialistic history resulted in the creation

of

> > the State of Israel and complicated Afghanistan's history with

> > staggering brutal oppression which left that country in ruins. Of

> > course if we are talking about the British Way that is

responsible

> > for tea and crumpets and Devonshire clotted cream, I think I

might

> > learn to love that. Oh, I guess America is also partly the result

> of

> > Britain's imperialistic blunders...so there is actually much of

> the

> > British Way that I love. Question: Where does the British Way end

> and

> > the American Way begin?

>

> They are the same way, just that the Americans are better at it

> (like everything else).

Not at being modest apparently.

Before I begin,

I will say that I dont intend to gratuitoulsy sling mud at America

the way I have don for several years now, and I had hoped that my

opening sentence would have indicated that change; it seems I was

wrong.

To keep things short I will say the difference between the British

and American Way is that it is now the British Way for the British,

or those who have made Britain their home, to write what Cool Guy

wrote about Britain. In contrast I think the only time Ive ever seen

the equivalent from an American on America is on the Freedom of Mind

list, and I might be wrong even there, because offhand I cant be sure

that any of such views were actually from any Americans even there.

For our present purposes, the reason for my comment was that the

term " the American Way " is a term used by sociologists to describe

how America managed to accommodate itself to the competition between

the Protestant and Catholic traditions that threatened to tear the

country apart. It also serves as a mechanism for accomadating

Judaism and other religious minorities. Basically it is the notion

that " Whatever youre religion, we all worship the same God " and

hence, the idea not that the it is ok to have or have not whatever

religious beliefs you like, but, Henry Ford like, " You can have any

religion you like so long as you believe in God " .

While successful at accomodating religious diversity, it is very bad

for respecting the right to be an atheist or agnostic. An AA troll

on this list once commented that the First Amendment was probably

intended merely to protect the right to have any religion, not no

religion, and I am sorry to say that my hunch is that he was right.

It is in this context that AA could and does flourish, including

active coercion to it, an incapacity to see the obvious that it is

itself religious and why anyone could possibly object to attending it

on that basis.

A regular member of this list once commented that she was surprised

that AA even existed in Britain because it was so AMerican in

character. Britain is a kind of mongrel of AMerican and European

culture, and hence AA does better here than it does on the

Continent. In Catholic European countries it has only recently begun

to have any significant presence at all, probably because these

countries are becoming more secular. Protestant countrieslike

Germany are alreadyh so secularised that the AA literature has been

bowdlerized to remove the religion from it. There is a post relevant

to that which I will now fwd.

The Good News for Americans is that there is a written COnstitution

to which they can apopeal to protect their freedom. The British

paradox is that we donthave one yet monstrosities like AA coercion

are vastly less likely to occur here in the first place. While I

would prefer it that way, the difficulty with it is that once the

infection has taken hold there is no constitutional antibiotiv for

getting rid of it, hence it is of vital importance that we do not

become infected. Unfortunately, both wittingly and unwittingly

Ameriuca is forcing it's values and culture upon us, and neither big

political parry has both the wish or resolve to resist it. THatis

why I desperately hope we eventually become a member state of the

United States of Europe, rather than the de facto 51st State of the

USA.

P.

P.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/20/01 8:08:48 PM Central Daylight Time,

thesobrietist@... writes:

<< As for the " war " , I will digress from the focus of this group but

briefly: Of this, too, I am not proud. It is unfortunate that many of

my countrymen think it a good thing, and somehow useful, to bomb the

bejeesus out of an unfortunate country which has already suffered too

much, spending billions in the process. Had we spent these billions

on humanitarian aid instead, had we made any honest attempt to

alleviate the ignorance and poverty and disenfranchisement of so many

people which is at the heart of the crisis, well . . . who knows. >>

Ah, but where is the financial or political profit in that?

[Guest guest]

Preventative maintenance... an ounce of prevention... this could

have and should have been prevented... but people aren't changing.

> In a message dated 10/20/01 8:08:48 PM Central Daylight Time,

> thesobrietist@y... writes:

>

> << As for the " war " , I will digress from the focus of this group

but

> briefly: Of this, too, I am not proud. It is unfortunate that

many of

> my countrymen think it a good thing, and somehow useful, to bomb

the

> bejeesus out of an unfortunate country which has already suffered

too

> much, spending billions in the process. Had we spent these

billions

> on humanitarian aid instead, had we made any honest attempt to

> alleviate the ignorance and poverty and disenfranchisement of so

many

> people which is at the heart of the crisis, well . . . who knows.

>>

>

> Ah, but where is the financial or political profit in that?

[Guest guest]

A while back I thought that they had broken my will but today I am beginning to understand what an incredibly strong person I am.

We know we are strong because we made it out. It takes strength to stand up and say "this is not right."

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I consider you to be a very valuable member of the group. Your

observations are correct, 12-step programs are more damaging

than helpful. The program is the exact opposite of healthy

self-esteem building counseling. Personally, I still have some

anger about the damage that the program had done to me. The

12-step cult is demeaning and dehumanizing to its victims. It's

not an easy task to educate 12-steppers, they react to new ideas

as if they were poisonous snakes.

You can do it, my sister is a CD counselor, and she's made

some progress. She has also recieved harrasing mail and

phone calls from cult members.

Best of luck to you,

Devin

> Hi! I'm a new member and wanted to introduce myself

> and let you know why I'm here. I'm a formally trained

> counselor that just started working in a residential

> treatment facility. I've known basic things about

> 12-step programs, and of course learned a little about

> them in Chemical Dependency classes, but have

> received the shock of my life over the past few weeks

> seeing what really goes on. " Treatment " is entirely

> based on AA/NA, and in my opinion more

> counter-productive than therapeutic. Much of what is

> " taught " by the " counselors " is contradictory, and

> clients that question any aspect of treatment are

> insulted in an attempt to break their will. I have

> always believed that a major goal of counseling was to

> help clients build on their strengths, increase their

> self-esteem, and empower them to take positive control

> of their lives, so I am not at all comfortable with

> any of this.

>

> I would appreciate your feedback and the opportunity

> to continue as an active member of this group. The

> comments I have read the past few days have already

> been very helpful.

>

> Thanks--

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

welcome to this list, Shelby. I am sure if you keep

reading you will find a great many illuminating

things! Most of us have been through that treatment

wringer and are simply chock-full of observations and

experience. I think this list will make a nice

complement to your profession. Look forward to

reading your experiences. Its good to hear from

professionals. You folks are on the forefront of this

whole thing.

--- shelljb51@... wrote:

> Hi! I'm a new member and wanted to introduce myself

> and let you know why I'm here. I'm a formally

> trained

> counselor that just started working in a residential

> treatment facility. I've known basic things about

> 12-step programs, and of course learned a little

> about

> them in Chemical Dependency classes, but have

> received the shock of my life over the past few

> weeks

> seeing what really goes on. " Treatment " is entirely

> based on AA/NA, and in my opinion more

> counter-productive than therapeutic. Much of what

> is

> " taught " by the " counselors " is contradictory, and

> clients that question any aspect of treatment are

> insulted in an attempt to break their will. I have

> always believed that a major goal of counseling was

> to

> help clients build on their strengths, increase

> their

> self-esteem, and empower them to take positive

> control

> of their lives, so I am not at all comfortable with

> any of this.

>

> I would appreciate your feedback and the opportunity

> to continue as an active member of this group. The

> comments I have read the past few days have already

> been very helpful.

>

> Thanks--

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

hi, glad you found this list.

bill wilson himself said one of goals of AA was to break the

alcoholics will in order accept gods will. that is the goal of the

12-steps, that people in your field fail to acknowledge that–all the

while pushing people into a religious program under the guise

of " spirituality " – is fraud and intellectual dishonesty.

a program which teaches self helplessness, powerlesness,

self doubt , self loathing, group dependence and provides no

tools for self reliance / responsibilty and living life sober other

than hitting your knees and praying, can hardly be expected to

teach self esteem.

I recommend you read the works of stanton peele (diseasing of

america) Schaler (addiction is a choice) ken raggae (the real AA)

bufe (AA: cult or cure?) and check out the bookmarks and files of

this group, where you will find links to their web sites and

additional info including court cases and the history of AA you

weren't taught.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/links

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/files

dave

[Guest guest]

hi, glad you found this list.

bill wilson himself said one of goals of AA was to break the

alcoholics will in order accept gods will. that is the goal of the

12-steps, that people in your field fail to acknowledge that–all the

while pushing people into a religious program under the guise

of " spirituality " – is fraud and intellectual dishonesty.

a program which teaches self helplessness, powerlesness,

self doubt , self loathing, group dependence and provides no

tools for self reliance / responsibilty and living life sober other

than hitting your knees and praying, can hardly be expected to

teach self esteem.

I recommend you read the works of stanton peele (diseasing of

america) Schaler (addiction is a choice) ken raggae (the real AA)

bufe (AA: cult or cure?) and check out the bookmarks and files of

this group, where you will find links to their web sites and

additional info including court cases and the history of AA you

weren't taught.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/links

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/files

dave

[Guest guest]

Welcome Shelby!

I am a nurse in Australia. We are fortunate here, that in our hospital

system, which is mostly public, the area of drug and alcohol services is NOT

dominated by 12 steppers. There are private facilities, and rehabs run by

the Salvation Army, that are pro-12 step, but they are in the minority. I

have worked in hospital clinics that do detox, and ongoing counselling, etc.

Although in my professional capabilities, I was only doing medical stuff, I

learnt a lot about councillors approach to the " substance abuse " health

issue. And it is mostly as you suggest it should be. They try to avoid

labels, such as " alcoholic " or " addict " . It is about behaviour, not

disease. Counselling is aimed at education and behavioural modification. The

most effective tool is sitting down with some one, and talking through the

pro and cons of drinking or using. Usually, when it's written down on paper,

the person can make a choice about there drinking or using. If they see it's

destructive, and can see the benefits of moderation, or abstinence, they

have been empowered to change. It builds esteem , and personal power. This

is 180 degrees opposite to the 12 step approach.

I wish these services were around in 1980. I would have avoided landing in

AA at a very young age.

I hope you keep posting here, Shelby. I'm intending to do some post graduate

study in drug and alcohol nursing, next year. My goal is to work in the

service here in town, which all the steppers hate, because it contradicts

their dogma.

Barnsey

[Guest guest]

If someone had given me some life skills, group counselling , empowerment

classes and some basic self esteem courses when I was about 14 , perhaps

I wouldn't have believed that I was diseased and defective for literally

the next 29 years. Being introduced to XA programs at 14 I have known

nothing else in my life.

A while back I thought that they had broken my will but today I am

beginning to understand what an incredibly strong person I am.

kisses

Tom Boy

At 03:16 PM 06/12/01 -0800, you wrote:

Hi! I'm a new member and

wanted to introduce myself

and let you know why I'm here. I'm a formally trained

counselor that just started working in a residential

treatment facility. I've known basic things about

12-step programs, and of course learned a little about

them in Chemical Dependency classes, but have

received the shock of my life over the past few weeks

seeing what really goes on. " Treatment " is entirely

based on AA/NA, and in my opinion more

counter-productive than therapeutic. Much of what is

" taught " by the " counselors " is contradictory,

and

clients that question any aspect of treatment are

insulted in an attempt to break their will. I have

always believed that a major goal of counseling was to

help clients build on their strengths, increase their

self-esteem, and empower them to take positive control

of their lives, so I am not at all comfortable with

any of this.

I would appreciate your feedback and the opportunity

to continue as an active member of this group. The

comments I have read the past few days have already

been very helpful.

Thanks--

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hey , Welcome It's nice to see someone in you capacity see the light. I have been in rehab 3x over the past 18 yrs, forced there by an insignificant other and an employer. Being a veteran I have concluded this as to what rehab is. They are the "BOOT CAMPS" of AA/NA. There the have you for 28 days, locked in their clutches to feed you AA isms 24/7. When you are done, they send you into battle to the individual platoons of AA to be further brainwashed into a complete submission of worthlessness. Me, I'd rather go through boot camp and 10 tours of Vietnam, than live my life as a "STEPPER", at least when I came out of the military, I still had a sense of worthiness. AA and rehabs couldn't break this ole soldier though. I've been sober now 18 mos, this time without AA and rehab. I did counseling for a while, outpatient style, just to make it look good when I applied for SSI. They told me to of course go to AA, do the 90-90 shit, but I told them if they want to collect their $90 a week from my insurance come, NIX the AA shit. IT WORKED MY WAY!!!! Jim HELLO Hi! I'm a new member and wanted to introduce myselfand let you know why I'm here. I'm a formally trainedcounselor that just started working in a residentialtreatment facility. I've known basic things about12-step programs, and of course learned a little aboutthem in Chemical Dependency classes, but havereceived the shock of my life over the past few weeksseeing what really goes on. "Treatment" is entirelybased on AA/NA, and in my opinion morecounter-productive than therapeutic. Much of what is"taught" by the "counselors" is contradictory, andclients that question any aspect of treatment areinsulted in an attempt to break their will. I havealways believed that a major goal of counseling was tohelp clients build on their strengths, increase theirself-esteem, and empower them to take positive controlof their lives, so I am not at all comfortable withany of this.I would appreciate your feedback and the opportunityto continue as an active member of this group. Thecomments I have read the past few days have alreadybeen very helpful.Thanks--__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Message: 13

Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:45:51 EST

From: IsWellwMySoul@...

Subject: Re: HELLO

>>>>>It takes strength to stand up

and say " this is not right. " <<<<<<<

Thank you for that

M.

[Guest guest]

" Treatment " is entirely

> based on AA/NA, and in my opinion more

> counter-productive than therapeutic. Much of what is

> " taught " by the " counselors " is contradictory, and

> clients that question any aspect of treatment are

> insulted in an attempt to break their will.

The problem with the " treatment " industry is that most of the

counseling and care are done by people with no type of schooling re:

psychology or medicine. Too many of the " counselors " in residential

or out-patient drug/alcohol treatment facilities have been former

patients and usually are AA or NA members. The wages are very low in

the treatment industry and the work is very grueling so this field

does not really attract many people with the proper credentials.

Often, it is the opposite. The " gurus " of the twelve-step programs

feel that they are on a " higher " plane so they have this mistaken

conception that they can help someone else re: addiction and the

problems that most likely came BEFORE the drugs or booze.

Most treatment facilities are hotbeds of abuse. The patients are

often individually put in a circle while the " counselor " and the

other residents hurl insults and often actually throw objects at the

victim to break him/her so that s/he can molded into a " new " person.

That is a very common practice in treatment. Female patients often

get the harshest treatment. I had read how many treatment facilities

make the women cut off their hair or wear it up and try to obliterate

any of their feminine qualities. Nice clothing or cosmetics were

taken away from the women and destroyed. The ladies are often

subjected to the crueltiies of the " group " when placed in the circle

and being told by the male patients how they were like the " filthy

sluts " that they had sex with in their drug using days. Speaking to

a male patient can lead to punishment for the female resident.

While in the rooms, I heard so many horror stories from women who had

been in treatment. One lady, who was staying with her sister, had

been contemplating going to a treatment center despite all of the

things that she knew other ladies had experienced since life at her

sister's home was difficult due to her brother-in-law and that

troubled marriage. I recommended that the woman return to New York

to her mother before signing herself into some treatment facility

hell-hole where she would be further mistreated. The only person I

knew that seemed to fare well from a treatment center was my former

mother-in-law since her son (my ex-husband) could afford to send her

to a fancy rehab where she was treated very well. But my ex-MIL

never stopped drinking for whatever reason.

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/aaornatwelvestepcults

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

Although I cant say Ive expereinced a US rehab, in fairness I think I

ought to say that I think these kind of overt outrageous abuses (and

I dont think the men got it any lighter) are rarely seen these days.

However, rehab can stll be psychologically abusive in relatively more

subtle ways. Fortunately the trend has been in a positive direction,

but still has a long way to go. Since the first step encourages

feelings of powerlessness, imo it is debatable whether 12-step

approaches can ever be non-abusive.

P.

> " Treatment " is entirely

> > based on AA/NA, and in my opinion more

> > counter-productive than therapeutic. Much of what is

> > " taught " by the " counselors " is contradictory, and

> > clients that question any aspect of treatment are

> > insulted in an attempt to break their will.

>

> The problem with the " treatment " industry is that most of the

> counseling and care are done by people with no type of schooling

re:

> psychology or medicine. Too many of the " counselors " in

residential

> or out-patient drug/alcohol treatment facilities have been former

> patients and usually are AA or NA members. The wages are very low

in

> the treatment industry and the work is very grueling so this field

> does not really attract many people with the proper credentials.

> Often, it is the opposite. The " gurus " of the twelve-step programs

> feel that they are on a " higher " plane so they have this mistaken

> conception that they can help someone else re: addiction and the

> problems that most likely came BEFORE the drugs or booze.

>

> Most treatment facilities are hotbeds of abuse. The patients are

> often individually put in a circle while the " counselor " and the

> other residents hurl insults and often actually throw objects at

the

> victim to break him/her so that s/he can molded into a " new "

person.

> That is a very common practice in treatment. Female patients often

> get the harshest treatment. I had read how many treatment

facilities

> make the women cut off their hair or wear it up and try to

obliterate

> any of their feminine qualities. Nice clothing or cosmetics were

> taken away from the women and destroyed. The ladies are often

> subjected to the crueltiies of the " group " when placed in the

circle

> and being told by the male patients how they were like the " filthy

> sluts " that they had sex with in their drug using days. Speaking

to

> a male patient can lead to punishment for the female resident.

>

> While in the rooms, I heard so many horror stories from women who

had

> been in treatment. One lady, who was staying with her sister, had

> been contemplating going to a treatment center despite all of the

> things that she knew other ladies had experienced since life at her

> sister's home was difficult due to her brother-in-law and that

> troubled marriage. I recommended that the woman return to New York

> to her mother before signing herself into some treatment facility

> hell-hole where she would be further mistreated. The only person I

> knew that seemed to fare well from a treatment center was my former

> mother-in-law since her son (my ex-husband) could afford to send

her

> to a fancy rehab where she was treated very well. But my ex-MIL

> never stopped drinking for whatever reason.

>

>

>

> http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/aaornatwelvestepcults