difficulty with healthy friendships

June 23, 2012

I've read posts about people having difficulty in dating relationships as a

result of unhealthy family upbringings.

Is it the same, and have people gained victory over the difficulty of

having healthy friendships?

My husband, child of waif/narcissistic/covertly abusive mother and

angry/covertly threatening/explosive rage dad has the worst time with

friendships. And it's rubbing off on me. I'm starting to trust fewer and

fewer people because this thing we're going through with his family is

something they can't understand, and get tired of hearing about. We're

currently NC with his parents (a year more or less) and his two sisters

have not reached out to us in over a year.

I don't think my DH ever had a healthy example of how to be friends. He

says that friendship means that someone has to suffer, so that the other

person can be happy. Obviously he knows it is not true, and somehow we've

managed to have an honest, somewhat balanced relationship where we complain

if we're unhappy about something.

But he does not have the trust to say anything to a friend if they make him

unhappy. In his mind there are 2 alternatives. Let the " friend " walk all

over you, or cut them off and stop speaking to them, and then by necessity,

avoid any places you used to frequent with them, thereby shrinking your

world to a very small place.

Sometimes I think if we can move, change our names, start over, and not try

to make friends, so that we don't end up with any enemies, then maybe we

can live a peaceful, reclusive, safe life.

Friends become enemies by 1) you and they get comfortable 2) they start to

take you for granted 3)they push you around 4) they expect things of you

and start to act entitled to your company, a ride, a visit, etc. 5)since

you don't have the skills to push back, or are too fragile to have a

confrontation, you shut down, panic, hide in bed, and hope like hell that

everyone just leaves you alone, only they won't because you already made

plans with them.

Right now we have plans tomorrow with two friends, and we plan to cancel,

because the last time we saw them, there was a way they were acting that

was starting to get disrespectful. making fun (Oh, I'm only joking, they'd

say) of what my husband said.

he's had so many friendships that end like this. how to break the cycle?

I know it is about standing up for yourself, creating boundaries, but how

do you do that when you are so wounded you can barely function? for now

the solution is just to cut off all friends and just avoid them, but even

that creates anxiety because you could run into them, and then get berated

for " why did you cancel, what is going on? " . Berated, questioned, put on

trial. It is so painful.

Can anyone out there say " i've been there " and tell what has helped? Thank

you!

June 23, 2012

Growing up with unhealthy examples of how to relate to people

can affect all sorts of relationships. It sounds like your

husband definitely needs to learn how to be communicate with

friends. I see a bunch of red flags in your description. I'd say

that if the choice is between letting people walk all over you

or cutting them off completely, there's probably no friendship

there to start with. The idea that friendship means someone has

to suffer is just wrong, wrong, wrong. Yes, sometimes people

choose to make sacrifices for the purpose of helping their

friends or making them happy, but they make that choice

willingly and because they care about their friends. Sacrifices

of that sort generally don't get seen as suffering because the

good that comes out of them overrides the bad. Most of the time

friendship is about people enjoying each other with no one

suffering at all. If his friendships mostly involve suffering,

either he's not communicating with his friends enough for them

to understand that he's unhappy with what's going on or he's

choosing the wrong people as friends. Both possibilities are

common with children raised by people with personality

disorders.

" Friends become enemies by 1) you and they get comfortable 2)

they start to take you for granted 3)they push you around 4)

they expect things of you and start to act entitled to your

company, a ride, a visit, etc. 5)since you don't have the

skills to push back, or are too fragile to have a confrontation,

you shut down, panic, hide in bed, and hope like hell that

everyone just leaves you alone, only they won't because you

already made plans with them. "

This is just wrong. Step one is right. Step two is going off in

the wrong direction though and steps three and four are really

off track. This sounds more like a description of one person

using the other, not of friendship. Regardless of whether

someone is good at pushing back, a real friendship shouldn't get

to the point described above. Friendships are two-way streets.

They shouldn't involve one person doing all the taking. They

shouldn't involve disrespect. They shouldn't involve

confrontations for the most part. Sometimes you have to tell a

friend that you don't like something or can't do something but

there isn't normally anything confrontational about doing that.

It may be that he is pretending to be happy to do things he

doesn't want to do at all and his friends don't realize how

unequal the relationship is getting. Friends don't magically

know what you're thinking. Some people go along with what other

people want while quietly simmering in their own thoughts until

they explode and the other party is blind-sided by the

explosion. If he's just expecting his friends to know what he

wants, he should start with giving himself permission to say

" no " when plans are being made and to express his own desires. I

think it is quite likely that he's choosing people who are

" takers " as friends though, possibly because he's used to people

who act that way and doesn't realize that it isn't normal.

Children of people with BPD often fall into that pattern. Many

of us are ready-made victims of people like that because our

parents have trained us to be that way. It simply isn't possible

to have a real friendship with some people. If those are the

people he's befriending, then cutting them off may be necessary

but avoiding all the places where they might be is not a

reasonable choice in most cases.

When you cancel plans, people are not entitled to put you on

trial over it unless you've done it in such a way as to cause

problems for them. If someone is depending on you for a ride to

an event and you cancel at the last minute leaving them no time

to make other arrangements, that's a problem and it is

understandable that they'd want to ask what happened. If you

tell someone that you're not going to be able to go out to

dinner with them next week, it should be enough to say " I'm

sorry, something came up and we're not going to be able to be

there " . Then don't make any more plans that you don't want to

keep. Genuine friends will be concerned and ask questions if you

continually seem to be cancelling plans. Genuine friends also

take reasonable answers without making you feel like you're on

trial.

Has he ever been to a therapist? If not, he might benefit from

seeing someone who can help him work through how to communicate,

form appropriate relationships with other people, and to detect

people who are takers rather than real friends. The first step

to forming good friendships is to learn to make healthy choices

for who to befriend.

At 04:13 PM 06/23/2012 p wrote:

>I've read posts about people having difficulty in dating

>relationships as a

>result of unhealthy family upbringings.

>

>Is it the same, and have people gained victory over the

>difficulty of

>having healthy friendships?

>

>My husband, child of waif/narcissistic/covertly abusive mother

>and

>angry/covertly threatening/explosive rage dad has the worst

>time with

>friendships. And it's rubbing off on me. I'm starting to

>trust fewer and

>fewer people because this thing we're going through with his

>family is

>something they can't understand, and get tired of hearing

>about. We're

>currently NC with his parents (a year more or less) and his two

>sisters

>have not reached out to us in over a year.

>

>I don't think my DH ever had a healthy example of how to be

>friends. He

>says that friendship means that someone has to suffer, so that

>the other

>person can be happy. Obviously he knows it is not true, and

>somehow we've

>managed to have an honest, somewhat balanced relationship where

>we complain

>if we're unhappy about something.

>

>But he does not have the trust to say anything to a friend if

>they make him

>unhappy. In his mind there are 2 alternatives. Let the

> " friend " walk all

>over you, or cut them off and stop speaking to them, and then

>by necessity,

>avoid any places you used to frequent with them, thereby

>shrinking your

>world to a very small place.

>

>Sometimes I think if we can move, change our names, start over,

>and not try

>to make friends, so that we don't end up with any enemies, then

>maybe we

>can live a peaceful, reclusive, safe life.

>

>Friends become enemies by 1) you and they get comfortable 2)

>they start to

>take you for granted 3)they push you around 4) they expect

>things of you

>and start to act entitled to your company, a ride, a visit,

>etc. 5)since

>you don't have the skills to push back, or are too fragile to

>have a

>confrontation, you shut down, panic, hide in bed, and hope like

>hell that

>everyone just leaves you alone, only they won't because you

>already made

>plans with them.

>

>Right now we have plans tomorrow with two friends, and we plan

>to cancel,

>because the last time we saw them, there was a way they were

>acting that

>was starting to get disrespectful. making fun (Oh, I'm only

>joking, they'd

>say) of what my husband said.

>

>he's had so many friendships that end like this. how to break

>the cycle?

> I know it is about standing up for yourself, creating

> boundaries, but how

>do you do that when you are so wounded you can barely

>function? for now

>the solution is just to cut off all friends and just avoid

>them, but even

>that creates anxiety because you could run into them, and then

>get berated

>for " why did you cancel, what is going on? " . Berated,

>questioned, put on

>trial. It is so painful.

>

>Can anyone out there say " i've been there " and tell what has

>helped? Thank

>you!

--

Katrina

June 23, 2012

> **

>

> Can anyone out there say " i've been there " and tell what has helped? Thank

> you!

>

Okay, I've had a few experiences similar to this, and I finally figured out

what was going on with me, as a KO. I have no idea if it's going on with

your husband and you or not, but I'll tell you a little about what's

happened to me on that front.

Basically, I eventually realized I was hanging out with the " wrong " people.

And by that I don't mean they were " evil " people, or that they were the

wrong color, creed, or what-have-you. By " wrong " people, I mean I was

hanging out with other KOs who had NOT recovered, plus their abusive

pals/signficant others/siblings. I discovered that there were only two

roles you could take in this particular social circle:

1) You could be abusive.

2) You could be abused.

That was it. No other roles were possible. You either pushed others around

or were pushed, and if you didn't pick one of those roles and stick to it,

the other people had absolutely no idea how to deal with you. Never having

had healthy relationships, they had no idea what one looked like. Some of

them dominated (the abusers), the others submitted (the abused), and that

was how the group balance was maintained.

I started having better relationships when I realized that I had started

hanging out with these folks because they were " easy " to befriend -- that

means they had very little in the way of healthy boundaries. Either they

would push mine (the dominant types making me feel " wanted " ) or they would

throw theirs open wide (the submissive types, seeking friendship, making me

feel " trusted " .) I made a (mostly successful) effort to maintain my own

boundaries with this group for a few years, and eventually one of the

abusive dominator types got frustrated by my resistance to his intrusive

behavior and physically attacked me. The submissives did nothing about

this. I split off from the main group after the attack (and the

nonexistent reaction of the " good " -- submissive/abused --people) but

continued to socialize with the a few of the group members in an on-line

gaming situation.

About six months after the physical attack, another of the abusive types

launched a relational-aggression attack on me (telling lies behind my

back), and got caught. The submissives in that splinter group made excuses

-- ( " He has mental issues, everyone knows that " ) -- and I reluctantly

forgave the offense, but three weeks later the abuser demanded that I be

removed from the group because I was making him " too upset " . He gave four

different nonsense reasons for this, including " You tried to psychoanalyze

me! " (This accusation was in reference to my asking " Why the hell are you

being so hostile to me recently? " -- which isn't like any psychoanalysis

I've ever heard of, but oh well...) One of the submissives made a token

attempt to protest on my behalf, but he got nowhere, so once again I was

cut out of the group for no reason other than that one of the abusers took

a dislike to me and the submissives weren't willing to stand up to the

bullies (probably for fear -- justified -- of coming under attack

themselves.) Another of the submissives made promises that they'd " set up

another night to play with you! " but somehow it never materialized

(surprise, surprise.)

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make with this is that while some

individuals in the group were " nice " enough (the submissives), they were

never going to overcome the influence of the abusive types in the group,

and were completely unable to stand up to them. If you weren't an abuser

yourself, your role was to be abused, and if you didn't want to do that,

you had no place there. The whole social circle was unhealthy, and was

going to stay that way -- there was no real way a single person entering

the group was going to change the dynamic.

If you keep having trouble with forming good solid healthy friendships, I

would say examine the dynamics of your social group, and consider whether

it's even possible to HAVE a solid healthy friendship in that group. You

wouldn't try to be a voice of racial tolerance at a KKK rally, after all --

it just wouldn't work. Going to a Tea Party and talking about how much good

social programs do wouldn't be likely to go over well either. (Nor could

you go to an Earth Day celebration and loudly proclaim that you believe

climate warning to be a hoax -- not if you wanted to avoid arguments, dirty

looks, and shunning, at a minimum.) Similarly, you can't be the voice of

abuse recovery when hanging around with abusers. They won't put up with it.

You can't maintain healthy boundaries in a group that finds that behavior

" stuck up " or " unfriendly " or " not giving enough " or whatever the charge

may be.

You may want to start shopping around for a different social group, one

where the members interact in healthy ways and maintain balanced, mutually

satisfying relationships. If you're the only one with good boundaries in a

group of folks who either don't have them or don't respect the boundaries

of others, you are either going to lose your own boundaries, or always be

an outsider. If you try stretching yourself socially, you might be able to

make contact, and eventually build healthy friendships with, people who are

capable of being good friends with you. It won't be trivial -- remember,

people with good boundaries take their time deciding whether and how much

to trust a newcomer -- but if you put out the effort there are lots of good

solid people out there to associate with. But you can't just sit back and

wait for them to look for YOU, because they have boundaries, and they won't

do that.

Again, I can't say if that's what's going on with you. But I'm convinced

it's what's been going on with me, and I'm actively reaching out to other

social groups to find the ones where the well-adjusted folks hang out

(grin). So far it's been working pretty damned well, I'm pleased to say.

-- Jen H.

June 23, 2012

I agree with both reponses.

O I have done this and it was part of one of the reasons why I went and got

help, (the other reasons was my overly aggessive outburts at my QUEEN/ sometimes

HERMIT/ sometimes WITCH of a HBPD nada who I allowed to move in with me, my

passive aggressive workplace and my NPD BIL and LBPD SIL having a fight whereby

BIL moved in with us played games then moved out within a 2 week time period) I

discovered that I was repressed and felt trapped. So I got help from a

psychologist due to my wonderfully supportive husband's encouragement and

discovered I was missing a few things...

1. I did not have ASSERTIVENESS I ranged between passive- passive agressive-

aggressive behaviours to deal with situations I could not handle, an inherent

behaviour I learnt from being responsible for nada's feelings.

2. I did not have BOUNDARIES thereby I cared about every godforsaken thing that

could go wrong and constantly over stepped boundaries with everyone, an inherent

behaviour I learnt from NADA.

3. I was ENMESHED in a CODEPENDENT/ENABLING merry go round with NADA.

These things have been apart of my life for so long of course it was a matter of

time when something would eventually disintegrate. But my constant LIGHT BULB

moments with my psychologist and going to CBT have helped immensely and I am

learning to handle things better by being assertive, creating boundaries for

myself, learning to only be responsible for my own actions and no one elses and

to stop being a part of the enmeshment even though nada lives with me by working

on those fundamentals I have learnt to be more confidant in myself and to stop

attracting friends who strongly resemble my mothers BPD traits. I think we do it

on a sub concious level.

You guys have gone NC but have you started tending to your own well beings this

may help you with making stronger friendships and like a wise person in this

group said shift your paradigms of thinking. I'll leave you with a quote that I

reckon says it all. " Keep your heart with diligence for that is where the river

of life flows " . I used to think therapy was for neurotic rich people and I

changed the way I thought abou that when it started working for me. You are

allowed to look after yourselves now do it before the spectre of his nada zaps

more of his life essence and effects your quality of life.

June 23, 2012

Jen,

Thank you so much for your post. It really explained some things very clearly

for me.

Take care,

Ashana

June 24, 2012

No advice from over here. Â I hopefully can validate your experiences though.

Â I've been in those sorts of yucky friendships before. Â I'm ashamed to admit

that I've been on both sides of the dynamic. Â I like to think that as I became

aware of my own emotional needs, I just found that those friendships weren't

doing it for me anymore. Â I've been getting more comfortable giving my

emotional needs more priority. Â I now try to search for friendships that will

satisfy my emotional needs. Â E.g. Desire to feel understood, validated, and

others I can't remember cause I've been out of touch with humanity and my own

emotions while running experiments for the past two weeks.

I'm a little hyper vigilant, so I don't have as many close friends as I would

like. Â But I'm feeling more comfortable hanging out casual acquaintances/not so

close friends than I used to be.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2012 4:07 PM

Subject: Re: difficulty with healthy friendships

Â