Guest guest Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Sometimes when I am running on the treadmill or driving by myself I start thinking about nada's death. The woman feared cancer more than anything for as long as I can remember, and she lived her own nightmare. She was in her own personal hell and reached out and dragged down as many people as she could sink her claws into. But she wasn't malicious- she lashed out at people out of insecurity. She was self absorbed, narcissistic, petty. But above all she was scared, immature, weak and NEEDY. And I think she hated herself. It's so SAD. She was really smart- she could have done so much with her life. I often tear up during these times. But my tears aren't from missing her or loving her or wanting her back. I think I cry because I am free from it, and I hurt for my inner child ( I hate that term but not sure how else to put it). And I think I hurt for what she could have been, and her tortured life that was so unnecessary. I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Well, that sounds pretty insightful to me, anyway. Yes, it IS a tragedy that a person with borderline pd is so resistant to seeking treatment for herself/himself. But those with bpd do appear to lean toward being highly defensive and massively resistant to the idea that their problems, at least in part, are due to their own skewed thinking, out-of-control emotions, paranoid, delusional beliefs, ugly words and abusive behaviors. In a way, having a personality disorder is like being an alcoholic. An alcoholic can only begin to kick the habit if they accept that they are drinking excessively, and that being drunk so often is harming their health and harming their relationships with others, but alcoholics are highly resistant to accepting that concept. " There's nothing wrong with me, I do NOT drink too much, and when I do drink it does not change me in any way or cause me any problems... YOU are the cause of my problems. If you think I drink too much, well, its because of YOU! " It IS a shame and a tragedy that those with personality disorder and/or alcoholism so often choose to remain in denial rather than seek treatment, which means they are choosing their dysfunction over anything else, including their loved ones, basically. -Annie > > Sometimes when I am running on the treadmill or driving by myself I start thinking about nada's death. The woman feared cancer more than anything for as long as I can remember, and she lived her own nightmare. She was in her own personal hell and reached out and dragged down as many people as she could sink her claws into. But she wasn't malicious- she lashed out at people out of insecurity. She was self absorbed, narcissistic, petty. But above all she was scared, immature, weak and NEEDY. And I think she hated herself. It's so SAD. She was really smart- she could have done so much with her life. I often tear up during these times. But my tears aren't from missing her or loving her or wanting her back. I think I cry because I am free from it, and I hurt for my inner child ( I hate that term but not sure how else to put it). And I think I hurt for what she could have been, and her tortured life that was so unnecessary. I don't know. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I think I know what you mean. I feel sad for the lost possibilities that my nada's life didn't take. She's smart. She's attractive, even at her age. She's even fun to do things with when she's not acting out. She could have done something she enjoyed with her life. Instead she worked at jobs she claimed to hate yet refused to do anything about getting a different type of job. She wasted a lot of her income and thus spends a lot of time worrying about money. She drove away a lot of friends over the years. She totally drove away my sister and rarely has much contact with her brothers. I think she has some contact with some of my cousins, they're on the other side of the country and really don't know her well enough to want to avoid her. Seeing how sad my nada's life really is probably what keeps me willing to have contact with her. Living with the ideas that BPD puts into your head has to be terrible. My nada's biggest fear for much of her life seems to have been being alone when she got old. From the time she started having an affair when I was 15 or 16 she went from man to man, having sex with far too many of them and hurting and discarding more than a few who really thought they loved her. She got a book about how to be an ethical slut and was somehow convinced that her behavior was ethical. One time when I talked to her about it she told me she acted that way because she didn't want to be alone when she got old. That makes no sense to me at all. By not forming long-term relationships and discarding men every time they said or did something that was less than perfect, she ensured that she would be alone when she got old. Now she's almost 70 and alone. However sad I find her life, the things she's done to me, my siblings, her husbands, and pretty much everyone else who got close to her were her choice and are not acceptable. Her own behavior is what has brought all the sadness in her life on her. I can see that it is a shame that she's lived her life that way, but that doesn't make me want to have much to do with her. At 04:17 PM 07/10/2012 wrote: >Sometimes when I am running on the treadmill or driving by >myself I start thinking about nada's death. The woman feared >cancer more than anything for as long as I can remember, and >she lived her own nightmare. She was in her own personal hell >and reached out and dragged down as many people as she could >sink her claws into. But she wasn't malicious- she lashed out >at people out of insecurity. She was self absorbed, >narcissistic, petty. But above all she was scared, immature, >weak and NEEDY. And I think she hated herself. It's so SAD. She >was really smart- she could have done so much with her life. I >often tear up during these times. But my tears aren't from >missing her or loving her or wanting her back. I think I cry >because I am free from it, and I hurt for my inner child ( I >hate that term but not sure how else to put it). And I think I >hurt for what she could have been, and her tortured life that >was so unnecessary. I don't know. -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 " She got a book about how to > be an ethical slut and was somehow convinced that her behavior > was ethical. One time when I talked to her about it she told me > she acted that way because she didn't want to be alone when she > got old. That makes no sense to me at all. By not forming > long-term relationships and discarding men every time they said > or did something that was less than perfect, she ensured that > she would be alone when she got old. " OMG if that's not BPD what is? This website continues to amaze me in it's validation. What I mean is, just when you think things nada did are so unreal and crazy that YOU are getting things mixed up, you hear of someone else's nada pulling the same type of psycho thinking. I'm so sorry you have had to deal with a nada, but glad we can share stories. My nada brought all her sadness on herself, except the cancer of course. Then again, her supremely unhealthy lifestyle may have contributed. > >Sometimes when I am running on the treadmill or driving by > >myself I start thinking about nada's death. The woman feared > >cancer more than anything for as long as I can remember, and > >she lived her own nightmare. She was in her own personal hell > >and reached out and dragged down as many people as she could > >sink her claws into. But she wasn't malicious- she lashed out > >at people out of insecurity. She was self absorbed, > >narcissistic, petty. But above all she was scared, immature, > >weak and NEEDY. And I think she hated herself. It's so SAD. She > >was really smart- she could have done so much with her life. I > >often tear up during these times. But my tears aren't from > >missing her or loving her or wanting her back. I think I cry > >because I am free from it, and I hurt for my inner child ( I > >hate that term but not sure how else to put it). And I think I > >hurt for what she could have been, and her tortured life that > >was so unnecessary. I don't know. > > -- > Katrina > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Thanks Annie. Do you think they are truly choosing? I mean, isn't part of BPD the inability to take a step back and see the dysfunction? I'm just wondering. My T said in most cases it's basically impossible to really help a BPD unless you catch them early. Regardless of choosing vs. pure illness, the behavior is toxic and we shouldn't be responsible for it or suffer for them. > > > > Sometimes when I am running on the treadmill or driving by myself I start thinking about nada's death. The woman feared cancer more than anything for as long as I can remember, and she lived her own nightmare. She was in her own personal hell and reached out and dragged down as many people as she could sink her claws into. But she wasn't malicious- she lashed out at people out of insecurity. She was self absorbed, narcissistic, petty. But above all she was scared, immature, weak and NEEDY. And I think she hated herself. It's so SAD. She was really smart- she could have done so much with her life. I often tear up during these times. But my tears aren't from missing her or loving her or wanting her back. I think I cry because I am free from it, and I hurt for my inner child ( I hate that term but not sure how else to put it). And I think I hurt for what she could have been, and her tortured life that was so unnecessary. I don't know. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I think that is the million-dollar question, and I don't know the answer. All I know is that for most of my life, MY bpd/npd mother ( " nada " ) could choose to behave very politely and be kind and friendly to those outside our family. She was always nice to me and Sister and Dad when we were in public, and she was nice to her family of origin (except for her older sister, whom she loathed.) My nada could *choose* when she would let loose her rage, frustration and violence, and she could choose who to unleash it at. For example, all through my growing-up years and into adulthood, I observed my nada being as respectful and polite as pie to police officers. It was only when senile dementia ate away most of the executive function in my nada's brain that her basic borderline pd rage, delusional thinking and paranoia were exhibited to those outside her immediate family: my mother became belligerent with the neighbors and even with the police, toward the end of her life. From my point of view, senile dementia was just my mother's life-long bpd behaviors on steroids, and displayed openly toward other people besides Sister and me, for a change. So, I guess I personally think that my own mother/nada could control her acting out behaviors (until the senile dementia hit), she simply felt entitled to unleash them at me, Sister and dad because in nada's mind we deserved it. Her true beliefs about the world in general and we, her family in particular, were very paranoid. My mother genuinely believed that we, her family, were lying to her most of the time, that we hated her, that we never tried to please her, and we were always taking from her and never giving to her emotionally or otherwise. She told me that she felt that I as an infant had hated and rejected her as a mother (!!?) She believed my dad was always cheating on her and she claimed that he beat her (both were untrue as far as Sister and I know.) My mother genuinely saw herself as a martyr and victim, and as the perfect wife and mother. My mother/nada accused Sister of stealing from her (more toward the end of nada's life.) She was convinced that Sister and I must both be lesbians (nothing wrong with that, but, it just so happens that neither of us are lesbians.) There are other bizarre things my nada said over the years RE her parents and siblings. As I grew up, I began to notice a HUGE disconnect between what my nada said about her family of origin and how they actually were: they were nice. Very consistently nice. My own mother is the only adult I ever saw fly into red-faced, spittle-flying rage-tantrums and scream at people; NOBODY else in her family was even remotely like that. Dad wasn't like that, and thank God my Sister and I aren't like that. So, I just don't know. My mother had the bpd delusional, paranoid thinking in spades, and yet she could manage to behave like a normal person in public. She was able to hold down responsible jobs. She had friends and belonged to a couple of clubs, and had church friends. And yet she could treat her foo and her spouse and kids really, really badly, what I would even go so far as to call psychological torture, to the point that my younger Sister and I developed ptsd symptoms, I became trauma-bonded to my mother and have avoidant pd traits, and my little Sister is still unable to remember big chunks of her childhood. So, go figure. -Annie > > Thanks Annie. Do you think they are truly choosing? I mean, isn't part of BPD the inability to take a step back and see the dysfunction? I'm just wondering. My T said in most cases it's basically impossible to really help a BPD unless you catch them early. Regardless of choosing vs. pure illness, the behavior is toxic and we shouldn't be responsible for it or suffer for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 My take on this is that they are choosing most of their own actions but their mechanism for making a choice is broken, leading them to make choices that have horrible consequences for both themselves and others. Their out-of-control emotions often overpower them like a flood that washes away any sensible thoughts. Because they can't think their everyday choices through in a normal fashion, they can't understand that there is something wrong with those choices and thus they can't see that something is wrong with them. So while I think they are constantly making wrong choices, I'm not so sure that they are actively choosing to deny their mental illness. I think at least some of them, my nada included, really believe they don't have a problem. At 11:47 PM 07/10/2012 wrote: >Thanks Annie. Do you think they are truly choosing? I mean, >isn't part of BPD the inability to take a step back and see the >dysfunction? I'm just wondering. My T said in most cases it's >basically impossible to really help a BPD unless you catch them >early. Regardless of choosing vs. pure illness, the behavior is >toxic and we shouldn't be responsible for it or suffer for >them. > -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 Sharing stories is so valuable. I think it is an important way to keep us grounded in reality without whitewashing what happened to us to the point where we get sucked back into nada (or fada) la-la land. I think the stress of dealing with out-of-control emotions may be responsible for the ill health that some nadas experience. Constant stress is bad for the body and it wouldn't surprise me at all if it contributed to cancer as well as a host of other problems. I think some nadas wish themselves into ill health too. It helps them to portray themselves as suffering and in need of being waited on. Their bad lifestyle choices certainly don't help either. My nada goes on and on about being a vegetarian but she doesn't cook much for herself and eats far too much junk that comes out of packages. Plus, for years she didn't get a bit of exercise other than in bed. I'm sure that lack of exercise has contributed to some or all of her health issues. At 11:42 PM 07/10/2012 wrote: >This website continues to amaze me in it's validation. What I >mean is, just when you think things nada did are so unreal and >crazy that YOU are getting things mixed up, you hear of someone >else's nada pulling the same type of psycho thinking. I'm so >sorry you have had to deal with a nada, but glad we can share >stories. My nada brought all her sadness on herself, except the >cancer of course. Then again, her supremely unhealthy lifestyle >may have contributed. -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Katrina, I too am experiencing a lot of grief, that I know is not missing my mom, but instead I believe it is feeling all those horrible emotions I had to stuff as a child in order to move forward. So yes, it's that most loathed of terms, the inner child, who I am learning to acknowledge but wish I could give her a different name in public. ; ) Upon my discovery of bpd/npd, which occurred after she died and the house of cards came tumbling down, I went through a period of deep despair that all the suffering in my childhood was because of this stupid illness. It was so needless, perverse, and cruel. That there is no good reason, ie the lima beans i ate because people in India were starving - for our suffering made it unbearable for me for a while. Anyway, it's my understanding that the bpd's actually have brain damage. IE their reptilian brain controls all their functions and they have very diminished executive function. I was not happy to hear this because I could not BLAME my mother for her abuse (anyone else with me on the blame and revenge fantasties? probably another thread in itself, at least I hope I'm not alone). But it does make sense, because impaired is what she was. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Annie, I am sorry you, your sister and your father had to endure your nada's BPD/NPD behavior. I can understand the confusion of how your nada could turn on the charm for work and non family members, and then unleash holy terror on the family. I can also believe that at least one person in your nada's FOO was abusive to her and the rest endorsed or ignored it so she may look at them as collectively having abused her in her youth. If you were to ask my younger brother about my nada/his mother his experience with her was significantly different from mine. Whereas I was slapped in the face as a form of discipline repeatedly for offenses (both perceived and actual) he was not. Since I am 15 years older than my brother, when he did something as a 2-2.5 year old, I was punished and he was hugged that his (fill in the negative adjective) sister allowed him to misbehave. His father my step-fada was horrible to me when I was growing up and even after I moved and out (ie spreading lies and creating rumors about me), and the proud loving dad to his son. My brother and I cannot discuss his parents without me becoming frustrated. I have chosen not to engage in conversations with him regarding his parents after he called me a liar. I think of my own mother's up bringing with her nada & step-nada. One of her brothers has admitted that she got the abuse the worse as she received it from both of them. My uncle also shared that he and his brother only received abuse from their step-nada and not their mother. I know, history has repeated itself through the generations. The irony is that my mother's nada consistently presents an air of love and kindness towards her family to her social group. Given the risk factors thought to increase BPD, I would think someone in your nada's FOO had it as well and mistreated her during her childhood. I actually have compassion for my mother when I think of her upbringing, and when I can disassociate her treatment of me from myself. Just a thought. Continue to heal and grow. Your insight in this group has been amazing! MyReality67 > > > > Thanks Annie. Do you think they are truly choosing? I mean, isn't part of BPD the inability to take a step back and see the dysfunction? I'm just wondering. My T said in most cases it's basically impossible to really help a BPD unless you catch them early. Regardless of choosing vs. pure illness, the behavior is toxic and we shouldn't be responsible for it or suffer for them. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 From my observation, it is an unconscious choice. To family who they think won't leave them or to their children who have to endure them, the choose to take their filter off and continue the behavior as they didn't receive an appropriate consequence to make them stop. That is why at work the higher functioning BPD can make better choices as they know the consequences would be unpleasant (demotion, termination, alienation). I just thought about this: In work and social settings their feelings of abandonment may not be triggered the way it is in the home or with family. Consequently, their behavior in the work environment is different. > >Thanks Annie. Do you think they are truly choosing? I mean, > >isn't part of BPD the inability to take a step back and see the > >dysfunction? I'm just wondering. My T said in most cases it's > >basically impossible to really help a BPD unless you catch them > >early. Regardless of choosing vs. pure illness, the behavior is > >toxic and we shouldn't be responsible for it or suffer for > >them. > > > > -- > Katrina > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Having illness has benefits to someone with BPD: attention and sympathy from family and medical community made the center of attention of family and friends family will break nc to tend to their needs justifiable excuse for bad behavior > >This website continues to amaze me in it's validation. What I > >mean is, just when you think things nada did are so unreal and > >crazy that YOU are getting things mixed up, you hear of someone > >else's nada pulling the same type of psycho thinking. I'm so > >sorry you have had to deal with a nada, but glad we can share > >stories. My nada brought all her sadness on herself, except the > >cancer of course. Then again, her supremely unhealthy lifestyle > >may have contributed. > > -- > Katrina > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I agree. I do think that there are more emotions involved than just a fear of abandonment though. Anything emotional can trigger my nada's crazy thinking and misbehavior. My nada always seemed able to do a good job at work despite her seeming inability to make smart and rational decisions in the rest of her life. She didn't always get along with her co-workers after she'd worked with them for a longer period of time though. I think some people with BPD do fine working because there aren't many emotional triggers at work. My nada's problems with work would happen after she'd started getting friendly with her co-workers. Eventually they'd irritate her in the same way all her other friends eventually do something to upset her. If the people who irritated here were co-workers or people above her, that sometimes created drama (at least in her mind). For the last several years before she stopped working she seemed to choose the people at the bottom end of the skill and wage scale and/or those who had problems of some sort to befriend. That way she could feel that she was a good person who was " helping " the less fortunate and her " friends " would be more inclined to do what she wanted because they were depending on her for a ride to work or whatever. At 06:47 AM 07/11/2012 myreality67 wrote: > From my observation, it is an unconscious choice. To family > who they think won't leave them or to their children who have > to endure them, the choose to take their filter off and > continue the behavior as they didn't receive an appropriate > consequence to make them stop. That is why at work the higher > functioning BPD can make better choices as they know the > consequences would be unpleasant (demotion, termination, > alienation). > >I just thought about this: In work and social settings their >feelings of abandonment may not be triggered the way it is in >the home or with family. Consequently, their behavior in the >work environment is different. -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Anuria and , Yes, we have all witnessed the choice to behave better, they can be screaming and raging and the phone rings and they answer the phone sweet as pie and butter wouldn't melt in their mouth! I used to listen to Joyce Meyer, the TV minister, and she said one thing that really stuck with me about how she used to yell and scream at her kids until one day she realized she was making a choice to do that, that if her pastor pulled up in her drive that she would not see him and still be yelling at them! That makes us crazy as KO's, knowing that they can seem to turn it off and on at will. I have come to believe that it is like a temporary flood wall. Yes, they can restrain themselves at times, but it isn't a restraint that would ever hold for long. It is not part of their ingrained personality to be able to do that for long. I think as PD's age that they get worse because their already fragile social filters get great big gaping holes in them. I think that what 's T said about their personalities being set if you can't get to them soon enough is true. My Aunt-in-law had a nada. She talked to her nadas therapist when she developed her own anxiety and depression issues. This Psychologist said that the best thing she could do for herself was put as much geography between her and her nada as she could. He said that her nada was never going to change and that her personality and character were set, like cured concrete, and trust me, the surface wasn't smooth or reinforced to withstand pressure! C > > > > Thanks Annie. Do you think they are truly choosing? I mean, isn't part of BPD the inability to take a step back and see the dysfunction? I'm just wondering. My T said in most cases it's basically impossible to really help a BPD unless you catch them early. Regardless of choosing vs. pure illness, the behavior is toxic and we shouldn't be responsible for it or suffer for them. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 At 06:56 AM 07/11/2012 myreality67 wrote: >Having illness has benefits to someone with BPD: attention and >sympathy from family and medical community made the center of >attention of family and friends family will break nc to tend to >their needs justifiable excuse for bad behavior Exactly. I think they try to use health issues, real or imagined, as a means of controlling other people. My nada takes enough pills to stock a small pharmacy. She has a whole slew of supposed health problems to pull out when she needs them but overall she seems quite healthy. I tend to wonder whether the pills she's taking create more health problems than they solve but suggesting that to her would almost certainly result in drama. -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Yes, I think the PD's have that in common. I have described my nadas medicine cabinet as a mini pharmacy for years. I don't EVER remember a time when she wasn't taking some pill or another. I am almost 45 years old and other than being on and off of BCP during my adult life, I have never taken anything with regularity. It has always been antibiotics when I need them and OTC meds as needed and rarely a Rx pain med for a a recurring back problem. What is more disturbing to me is how shocked healthcare workers are when you tell them you don't take any meds for anything. Add onto that I still don't need reading glasses and I feel pretty blessed. I def. think that half of my nadas issues are from taking so many Rx meds and OTC meds in her life. I can't imagine what that has done to her body. Even she will admit that she ruined her sinuses in her twenties by over using a nasal decongestant spray. And she wonders why I won't take any of the meds she tries to push on me! > >Having illness has benefits to someone with BPD: attention and > >sympathy from family and medical community made the center of > >attention of family and friends family will break nc to tend to > >their needs justifiable excuse for bad behavior > > Exactly. I think they try to use health issues, real or > imagined, as a means of controlling other people. My nada takes > enough pills to stock a small pharmacy. She has a whole slew of > supposed health problems to pull out when she needs them but > overall she seems quite healthy. I tend to wonder whether the > pills she's taking create more health problems than they solve > but suggesting that to her would almost certainly result in > drama. > > -- > Katrina > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Hi MR, I understand that you are coming from a place of compassion because *your* bpd mom did experience abuse or negligence in childhood, but MY reality is that my nada was an anomaly in her family of origin and did not experience abuse or neglect from either of her parents, or her sibs. She was the middle daughter of three, and neither of her siblings corroborate that either of their parents were either abusive or negligent to any of them, and both of them were bewildered and shocked when my Sister (and I) shared with them the stories we had been fed about their childhood (in general) and her childhood (in particular) our whole lives. My nada claimed that she and her sisters had been frequently beaten by their father whom she claimed had a horrible hair-trigger temper. My nada claimed that her mother rejected her and hated her, and preferred her oldest daughter (my mother's older sister.) Neither of my mother's siblings corroborate any of these stories/perceptions of abuse or neglect. (My aunts did share a memory of an incident, when they were all three spanked at the same time, once, while they were all three in bed covered by layers of sheets, blankets, etc, because they kept giggling and making noise when their father had told them several times to be quiet because he needed to get to sleep. He spanked the top cover.) My own experience over *decades* of spending time with my grandparents and my aunts (and their families) is that my grandfather did not have a terrible temper and he was not violent even when provoked. (Children can be pretty provoking.) My grandmother had hugs and smiles for all her children and grandchildren, there was no favoritism. None of them ever yelled at each other. I never experienced any of my mother's family make a rude or insulting or denigrating remark to her (or to anyone, actually); they were just rather boringly nice, simple, hard-working middle-class people. (We went on a few family vacations together when I was a child and teen, and so I had the opportunity to observe the adults' behaviors over a prolonged time while in close contact with each other. My grandparents were not as my mother said they were, believe me.) In retrospect, I believe that my mother's parents and siblings actually walked on eggshells around my mother; she controlled them with her rage or the threat of her rage the same way she controlled dad and Sister and me. They were afraid of her. My mother was the family bully; they were as afraid of her as we were. At WTO and at other sites there are support groups for parents who find that they have a child with borderline pd traits (in children, the behavior cluster isn't usually diagnosed as bpd, but as " conduct disorder " or other childhood-level psychiatric disorders). If you read the posts in those support groups, the guilt and desperation you read there is heartbreaking. These parents are anguished, believing that they must have done something to cause one of their children to have these devastatingly self-harming and other-harming behaviors. The point I'm making is that bpd can occur even in the absence of parental abuse. I think that is the case with my own mother; she must have been born super-hyper off-the-charts sensitive with a skewed or fractured ability to perceive reality accurately. (She truly believed I had hated her and rejected her as an infant, that her older sister was the favorite, that her mother hated her, and that my dad was always cheating on her. She had many of these " fixed delusional beliefs. " ) To my mother, the ordinary daily stresses of life, work, marriage and parenthood were unbearable, and were due to other people deliberately setting out to insult her, hurt her feelings, put her down, and piss her off. Her coping mechanism was to be as perfect as possible (she expected us to be perfect, also) and to lash out in rage at her family when she believed she was being insulted, ignored or left out, or when we didn't meet her unrealistic expectations. We were her rage outlet, and her punching bags: her stress relief. And we deserved it, in her opinion, because we were ungrateful and unloving and we were deliberately trying to upset her. I witnessed on many occasions how my mother would corner her older sister at family events (somewhere out of the way; apparently having me as a witness didn't count) and my mother would get in her sister's face and rage at her, calling her ugly names, accusing her of doing ugly things, and my aunt would just stand there with her head bowed, and then walk away, leaving my mother raging to herself. My aunt (and her daughter, my cousin) shared with me only recently that my aunt would often cry on the way home after these Sunday dinners at their parent's home; my aunt couldn't understand why her sister hated her so much. I never once saw my aunt fight back; she is a very passive, gentle soul much like their mother/my grandmother. It is entirely possible that my mother had more than " just " borderline pd (as though that isn't enough of a tragedy all on its own.) But I'll never know, as my mother passed away last Christmas. But I do know that she was diagnosed twice, by two different therapists, as having borderline pd, so, perhaps she just had an extreme version of it with extra helpings of the " transient paranoid and delusional ideation " and the " inappropriate and extreme rage " traits. -Annie > > Annie, > > I am sorry you, your sister and your father had to endure your nada's BPD/NPD behavior. I can understand the confusion of how your nada could turn on the charm for work and non family members, and then unleash holy terror on the family. I can also believe that at least one person in your nada's FOO was abusive to her and the rest endorsed or ignored it so she may look at them as collectively having abused her in her youth. > > If you were to ask my younger brother about my nada/his mother his experience with her was significantly different from mine. Whereas I was slapped in the face as a form of discipline repeatedly for offenses (both perceived and actual) he was not. Since I am 15 years older than my brother, when he did something as a 2-2.5 year old, I was punished and he was hugged that his (fill in the negative adjective) sister allowed him to misbehave. His father my step-fada was horrible to me when I was growing up and even after I moved and out (ie spreading lies and creating rumors about me), and the proud loving dad to his son. My brother and I cannot discuss his parents without me becoming frustrated. I have chosen not to engage in conversations with him regarding his parents after he called me a liar. > > I think of my own mother's up bringing with her nada & step-nada. One of her brothers has admitted that she got the abuse the worse as she received it from both of them. My uncle also shared that he and his brother only received abuse from their step-nada and not their mother. I know, history has repeated itself through the generations. The irony is that my mother's nada consistently presents an air of love and kindness towards her family to her social group. > > Given the risk factors thought to increase BPD, I would think someone in your nada's FOO had it as well and mistreated her during her childhood. I actually have compassion for my mother when I think of her upbringing, and when I can disassociate her treatment of me from myself. > > Just a thought. > > Continue to heal and grow. Your insight in this group has been amazing! > > MyReality67 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Well, actually, my nada had a horror of being ill, would avoid taking pills because she said they made her choke, and wouldn't go to see a doctor until something was really pretty far along or an emergency hit. When I was a child, I avoided telling her if I was feeling ill or got injured, as she would scream at me and blame me for being sick or injured instead of comforting me. Oddly, though, nada was conscientious about seeing that Sister and I had the regular childhood medical checkups/shots, and dental checkups. Go figure. Her inconsistent behaviors were bewildering. -Annie > > Yes, I think the PD's have that in common. I have described my nadas medicine cabinet as a mini pharmacy for years. I don't EVER remember a time when she wasn't taking some pill or another. I am almost 45 years old and other than being on and off of BCP during my adult life, I have never taken anything with regularity. It has always been antibiotics when I need them and OTC meds as needed and rarely a Rx pain med for a a recurring back problem. What is more disturbing to me is how shocked healthcare workers are when you tell them you don't take any meds for anything. Add onto that I still don't need reading glasses and I feel pretty blessed. I def. think that half of my nadas issues are from taking so many Rx meds and OTC meds in her life. I can't imagine what that has done to her body. Even she will admit that she ruined her sinuses in her twenties by over using a nasal decongestant spray. And she wonders why I won't take any of the meds she tries to push on me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I wonder whether there's a black/white issue going on where this is concerned. I get the impression that many nadas either refuse to get medical treatment when appropriate or seek more medical treatment than should be needed. That would fit with some seeing doctors and pills as being " white " and others seeing them as being " black " . At 12:11 PM 07/11/2012 anuria67854 wrote: >Well, actually, my nada had a horror of being ill, would avoid >taking pills because she said they made her choke, and wouldn't >go to see a doctor until something was really pretty far along >or an emergency hit. When I was a child, I avoided telling >her if I was feeling ill or got injured, as she would scream at >me and blame me for being sick or injured instead of comforting >me. > >Oddly, though, nada was conscientious about seeing that Sister >and I had the regular childhood medical checkups/shots, and >dental checkups. Go figure. Her inconsistent behaviors were >bewildering. > >-Annie -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Hi Katrina, " Black and white " thinking/belief system is one of the nine (current) diagnostic criteria for bpd. BPD thinking and behaviors seem to lean more toward the extreme end rather than the " gray " or flexible middle ground: a person or a thing or an activity/behavior is either " all good " or " all bad " for someone with bpd. B&W thinking/behaviors tends to crop up in the area of housekeeping, as well. Some nadas (like mine) were or are hyper-obsessively, perfectionist-level clean and organized, while other nadas fall into the extreme messiness, disorganization and even the filthy, unsanitary living conditions of hoarding. So, it seems plausible to me that behaviors regarding their own health and their feelings about seeking medical treatment for themselves would be affected by bpd " black and white " thinking as well. -Annie > > I wonder whether there's a black/white issue going on where this > is concerned. I get the impression that many nadas either refuse > to get medical treatment when appropriate or seek more medical > treatment than should be needed. That would fit with some seeing > doctors and pills as being " white " and others seeing them as > being " black " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I agree- my nada would complain of things, but would never take the medicine given or follow the advice of the doctors. I thinks she didn't want to get better because then she would lose the sympathy. > > >This website continues to amaze me in it's validation. What I > > >mean is, just when you think things nada did are so unreal and > > >crazy that YOU are getting things mixed up, you hear of someone > > >else's nada pulling the same type of psycho thinking. I'm so > > >sorry you have had to deal with a nada, but glad we can share > > >stories. My nada brought all her sadness on herself, except the > > >cancer of course. Then again, her supremely unhealthy lifestyle > > >may have contributed. > > > > -- > > Katrina > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I think the closer you get to them, the more the behavior shines through. > > >Thanks Annie. Do you think they are truly choosing? I mean, > > >isn't part of BPD the inability to take a step back and see the > > >dysfunction? I'm just wondering. My T said in most cases it's > > >basically impossible to really help a BPD unless you catch them > > >early. Regardless of choosing vs. pure illness, the behavior is > > >toxic and we shouldn't be responsible for it or suffer for > > >them. > > > > > > > -- > > Katrina > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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