Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 a sum-up of how the communication has been going: -5 mos. ago: tried to scale back length and content of phone conversations with nada. nada started being weepy/critical (you just don't have time for ME anymore!!!) -5 mos: decided that I would start communicating by e-mail for a while because I was doing medical treatment, and was told to eliminate stress. -3/4 mos. Nada starts sending weird letters that include criticism mixed with " i love you " and projections of all kinds about how my life is just like hers, and her justifications for why I am not living the life she sees for me. and all other forms of nada-ness. as a result my slim desire to send the e-mails evaporated,and I decided to only send notes when I feel like it which is pretty rare. -2 mos. nada informs me that she will call me whenever she wants in a birthday card, and says something along the lines of " it has been months since I have heard your voice. " I am forced to re-inforce my boundary. -most recently: Dad writes nasty e-mail informing me that the medication I am on is making me " scary " (I am not on medication)and making up theories about what is really going on with me medically (I have been doing intense treatment for the last 6 mos.) even though I have had a diagnosis for 5 years. -get foggy letter and a check attempting to pressure us into coming to a family reunion that is over 25 hr drive away, and DH is in the middle of writing his dissertation. -this week: Nada calls. I yell,and cuss her out, she argues/attempts to gaslight, I hang up, she calls back, I ignore her message, she calls back again I in a more calm way tell her off some more she validates me a bit (what the?) and then cheerfully asked to hear all about the vacation I recently went on. I had to go and told her so, she cried, and asked when she could call again, and I told her I was not ready to share things with her yet, and needed more time. and she became more upset than ever. BP's really do fear abandonment. it appears she prefers being cussed out, and accused, than e-mail only. woah. this makes me super sad for her. my problem is this: she actually agreed to try to learn how to be nicer, and asked me to " teach her " and I think she was sincere. (at least right then) and yes I realize I am not responsible for her feelings but I feel like a big jerk. my dad is so cold and affection-less, and she really did depend on me. and I feel like I should be kind. but I just don't have energy to give to her right now. and the biggest problem is that I know she will want an all or nothing relationship. the second I open the door she will be back to calling me all the time, grilling me, and whining when I don't drop everything for her. I want to have the kind of relationship with her that I can call her, or have her call me whenever there is actually something going on, not having her ask the same invasive judgmental things every week, and expecting a different answer. and I want to be able to end the conversation whenever I want/need to. is it possible to train a nada? or is that just mean? can I send an e-mail that says: I want a healthy relationship with you this is what it looks like: ... and set boundaries in that way? I feel like I am being really mean dragging this on, and I am scared of the backlash. (yes I know that is FOG) and isn't a bit of obligation in relationships right? how do I move forward? Meikjn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Meikjn, I know you already know this in your gut, but that whole " teach me " comment is a hook. Once again, you are being made responsible for her happiness. If she really wanted to change your relationship, she would have. Does she have a therapist? Would she be willing to get one and let you communicate thru them for a while including letting the therapist know exactly what your needs are and the history of your relationship and why you are where you currently find yourself? As far as your feeling sorry for your nada due to your father's " coldness " again...it is her choice to be in that relationship and you are not responsible for making her happy. I know what you are dealing with. I was the buffer between my parents for most of my life growing up and into my early adult years. I got into therapy and realized that their relationship was their problem and not mine and that I had been parentified and put into the role of their marriage counselor for long enough. I washed my hands of it and told them no more. They were divorced within about a year of that. It was better for all of us all around. Even if you consider that my dad married another mentally ill woman, she is not as mean to him as my nada was. My nada tries to lay out bait for me all of the time. She knows that I realize that she is not " right " and she has tried to get me to " fix " her. She has tried to get me to fix the relationship between her and my brother. I quit falling for that quite a while back and told her that if she was really serious about trying to heal her relationship with her son, that she should get therapy and admit that she causes most of her own problems. She considered it for about three days and decided that my brother was the problem and that she just didn't accept that she ever did anything that deserves that kind of punishment (complete NC for the past 3+ years) Again, her problems and her happiness are always someone elses responsibility. She occassionally gets moments of clarity where she realizes that she has caused a problem but she goes into complete denial within about 72 hours. I swear you can almost set a clock by it. From everything you have written lately, I know that you are struggling just to meet your own needs and I hope that something I or another KO writes in response helps strengthen you to continue to put yourself first. You have taken a back seat to your nadas needs long enough, IMO. Much love, C > > a sum-up of how the communication has been going: > -5 mos. ago: tried to scale back length and content of phone conversations with nada. nada started being weepy/critical (you just don't have time for ME anymore!!!) > > -5 mos: decided that I would start communicating by e-mail for a while because I was doing medical treatment, and was told to eliminate stress. > > -3/4 mos. Nada starts sending weird letters that include criticism mixed with " i love you " and projections of all kinds about how my life is just like hers, and her justifications for why I am not living the life she sees for me. and all other forms of nada-ness. as a result my slim desire to send the e-mails evaporated,and I decided to only send notes when I feel like it which is pretty rare. > > -2 mos. nada informs me that she will call me whenever she wants in a birthday card, and says something along the lines of " it has been months since I have heard your voice. " I am forced to re-inforce my boundary. > > -most recently: Dad writes nasty e-mail informing me that the medication I am on is making me " scary " (I am not on medication)and making up theories about what is really going on with me medically (I have been doing intense treatment for the last 6 mos.) even though I have had a diagnosis for 5 years. > > -get foggy letter and a check attempting to pressure us into coming to a family reunion that is over 25 hr drive away, and DH is in the middle of writing his dissertation. > > -this week: Nada calls. I yell,and cuss her out, she argues/attempts to gaslight, I hang up, she calls back, I ignore her message, she calls back again I in a more calm way tell her off some more she validates me a bit (what the?) and then cheerfully asked to hear all about the vacation I recently went on. I had to go and told her so, she cried, and asked when she could call again, and I told her I was not ready to share things with her yet, and needed more time. and she became more upset than ever. BP's really do fear abandonment. it appears she prefers being cussed out, and accused, than e-mail only. woah. > > this makes me super sad for her. > > my problem is this: > she actually agreed to try to learn how to be nicer, and asked me to " teach her " and I think she was sincere. (at least right then) > > and yes I realize I am not responsible for her feelings but I feel like a big jerk. my dad is so cold and affection-less, and she really did depend on me. and I feel like I should be kind. but I just don't have energy to give to her right now. > > and the biggest problem is that I know she will want an all or nothing relationship. the second I open the door she will be back to calling me all the time, grilling me, and whining when I don't drop everything for her. > > I want to have the kind of relationship with her that I can call her, or have her call me whenever there is actually something going on, not having her ask the same invasive judgmental things every week, and expecting a different answer. and I want to be able to end the conversation whenever I want/need to. > > is it possible to train a nada? or is that just mean? can I send an e-mail that says: I want a healthy relationship with you this is what it looks like: .... and set boundaries in that way? > > I feel like I am being really mean dragging this on, and I am scared of the backlash. (yes I know that is FOG) > > and isn't a bit of obligation in relationships right? how do I move forward? > > Meikjn > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Meikjn, I know you already know this in your gut, but that whole " teach me " comment is a hook. Once again, you are being made responsible for her happiness. If she really wanted to change your relationship, she would have. Does she have a therapist? Would she be willing to get one and let you communicate thru them for a while including letting the therapist know exactly what your needs are and the history of your relationship and why you are where you currently find yourself? As far as your feeling sorry for your nada due to your father's " coldness " again...it is her choice to be in that relationship and you are not responsible for making her happy. I know what you are dealing with. I was the buffer between my parents for most of my life growing up and into my early adult years. I got into therapy and realized that their relationship was their problem and not mine and that I had been parentified and put into the role of their marriage counselor for long enough. I washed my hands of it and told them no more. They were divorced within about a year of that. It was better for all of us all around. Even if you consider that my dad married another mentally ill woman, she is not as mean to him as my nada was. My nada tries to lay out bait for me all of the time. She knows that I realize that she is not " right " and she has tried to get me to " fix " her. She has tried to get me to fix the relationship between her and my brother. I quit falling for that quite a while back and told her that if she was really serious about trying to heal her relationship with her son, that she should get therapy and admit that she causes most of her own problems. She considered it for about three days and decided that my brother was the problem and that she just didn't accept that she ever did anything that deserves that kind of punishment (complete NC for the past 3+ years) Again, her problems and her happiness are always someone elses responsibility. She occassionally gets moments of clarity where she realizes that she has caused a problem but she goes into complete denial within about 72 hours. I swear you can almost set a clock by it. From everything you have written lately, I know that you are struggling just to meet your own needs and I hope that something I or another KO writes in response helps strengthen you to continue to put yourself first. You have taken a back seat to your nadas needs long enough, IMO. Much love, C > > a sum-up of how the communication has been going: > -5 mos. ago: tried to scale back length and content of phone conversations with nada. nada started being weepy/critical (you just don't have time for ME anymore!!!) > > -5 mos: decided that I would start communicating by e-mail for a while because I was doing medical treatment, and was told to eliminate stress. > > -3/4 mos. Nada starts sending weird letters that include criticism mixed with " i love you " and projections of all kinds about how my life is just like hers, and her justifications for why I am not living the life she sees for me. and all other forms of nada-ness. as a result my slim desire to send the e-mails evaporated,and I decided to only send notes when I feel like it which is pretty rare. > > -2 mos. nada informs me that she will call me whenever she wants in a birthday card, and says something along the lines of " it has been months since I have heard your voice. " I am forced to re-inforce my boundary. > > -most recently: Dad writes nasty e-mail informing me that the medication I am on is making me " scary " (I am not on medication)and making up theories about what is really going on with me medically (I have been doing intense treatment for the last 6 mos.) even though I have had a diagnosis for 5 years. > > -get foggy letter and a check attempting to pressure us into coming to a family reunion that is over 25 hr drive away, and DH is in the middle of writing his dissertation. > > -this week: Nada calls. I yell,and cuss her out, she argues/attempts to gaslight, I hang up, she calls back, I ignore her message, she calls back again I in a more calm way tell her off some more she validates me a bit (what the?) and then cheerfully asked to hear all about the vacation I recently went on. I had to go and told her so, she cried, and asked when she could call again, and I told her I was not ready to share things with her yet, and needed more time. and she became more upset than ever. BP's really do fear abandonment. it appears she prefers being cussed out, and accused, than e-mail only. woah. > > this makes me super sad for her. > > my problem is this: > she actually agreed to try to learn how to be nicer, and asked me to " teach her " and I think she was sincere. (at least right then) > > and yes I realize I am not responsible for her feelings but I feel like a big jerk. my dad is so cold and affection-less, and she really did depend on me. and I feel like I should be kind. but I just don't have energy to give to her right now. > > and the biggest problem is that I know she will want an all or nothing relationship. the second I open the door she will be back to calling me all the time, grilling me, and whining when I don't drop everything for her. > > I want to have the kind of relationship with her that I can call her, or have her call me whenever there is actually something going on, not having her ask the same invasive judgmental things every week, and expecting a different answer. and I want to be able to end the conversation whenever I want/need to. > > is it possible to train a nada? or is that just mean? can I send an e-mail that says: I want a healthy relationship with you this is what it looks like: .... and set boundaries in that way? > > I feel like I am being really mean dragging this on, and I am scared of the backlash. (yes I know that is FOG) > > and isn't a bit of obligation in relationships right? how do I move forward? > > Meikjn > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Meikjn, You are definitely not responsible for her feelings and you're not a big jerk. You say she depended on you. How? If I remember correctly you don't live near her, do you? So I don't think you mean she depends on you to do things she can't do. I think you mean she depends on you emotionally. Is that right? If so, mothers are not supposed to be emotionally dependent on their grown children. There's nothing wrong with not cooperating in that type of dependency. If she doesn't have you, she'll find someone else. You should be kind to her to some extent, but being kind is not the same thing as giving her whatever she wants. Sometimes the kindest thing to do is to remove yourself from a relationship or situation that is not healthy for either person. You ask if there's a way to train a nada. My answer is both yes and no. I've managed to train my nada to a certain extent. It took several years and she still backslides at times. What I've done is enforce my boundaries. If she violates them, she doesn't get what she wants. One of my big problems with her is that she loves to bad-mouth people. Once my little sister finished college and didn't need her to fill out paperwork any more I started fighting back against that. I never specifically told her what my rules were. I just enforce them. When she said something bad about me, my sister, either of our fathers or anyone else I cared about I told her I wasn't going to discuss that and when she continued I hung up or left. After a year or two the number of times she tried to continue the discussion diminished a lot. After a few more years she mostly stopped saying nasty things to me about me. She still tries to say bad things about my sister and my father (who divorced her over 30 years ago) sometimes but I rarely have to hang up on her. Training her that way has done nothing to change the way she thinks. It has simply made her understand that saying those things to me doesn't get the results she wants. She wants me to talk to her and do things for her more than she wants to say nasty things to me. I'm sure she still thinks those things and says them to other people and I'm pretty sure that she thinks my lack of desire to listen to her nasty comments is a defect in me, not her. I've worked on training her that I'm not going to come rushing to her rescue every time she creates an " emergency " in her life as well. That's starting to show some results. You could try to do something similar and it might work. It really depends on whether or not there's something that you control that she wants more than she wants to do the things you want her to stop doing. If there isn't, then you don't have any leverage to use to train her. About her agreement to let you teach her how to be nicer, I don't think that's a good idea or one that will have good results. She may have meant it at the time she said it but she's not going to continue meaning it, or if she really does, she needs a therapist trained in treating BPD to help her change. That's not a burden you should be taking on. Nadas act the way they do because that's the way their brains are wired to work. We can't change that. Even trained therapists have a lot of trouble teaching adults with BPD how to behave better. In my experience, telling a nada what your boundaries are isn't helpful. It feels to me like waving a big red flag at a bull and like telling her exactly what to do when she wants to raise a ruckus and upset me. Giving your nada a list of what a healthy relationship looks like could have one of two results if she's like my nada. One possibility is that she'll see it as a set of accusations and rebel against it. The other possibility is that she won't see how it applies to her behavior because she doesn't think there is anything wrong with her behavior. She could also use it as a way to justify other nada bahavior that isn't covered by your list. Your nada might be different from mine though. I don't think anything is cut and dried about what the best way to deal with a nada is. Assuming that she isn't going to change, what kind of relationship are you willing to have with her? I think that should be your starting point. If she really is willing to change, you can add more contact as she demonstrates changes to you. At 10:11 AM 07/29/2012 Meikjn wrote: >a sum-up of how the communication has been going: >-5 mos. ago: tried to scale back length and content of phone >conversations with nada. nada started being weepy/critical (you >just don't have time for ME anymore!!!) > >-5 mos: decided that I would start communicating by e-mail for >a while because I was doing medical treatment, and was told to >eliminate stress. > >-3/4 mos. Nada starts sending weird letters that include >criticism mixed with " i love you " and projections of all kinds >about how my life is just like hers, and her justifications for >why I am not living the life she sees for me. and all other >forms of nada-ness. as a result my slim desire to send the >e-mails evaporated,and I decided to only send notes when I feel >like it which is pretty rare. > >-2 mos. nada informs me that she will call me whenever she >wants in a birthday card, and says something along the lines of > " it has been months since I have heard your voice. " I am forced >to re-inforce my boundary. > >-most recently: Dad writes nasty e-mail informing me that the >medication I am on is making me " scary " (I am not on >medication)and making up theories about what is really going on >with me medically (I have been doing intense treatment for the >last 6 mos.) even though I have had a diagnosis for 5 years. > >-get foggy letter and a check attempting to pressure us into >coming to a family reunion that is over 25 hr drive away, and >DH is in the middle of writing his dissertation. > >-this week: Nada calls. I yell,and cuss her out, she >argues/attempts to gaslight, I hang up, she calls back, I >ignore her message, she calls back again I in a more calm way >tell her off some more she validates me a bit (what the?) and >then cheerfully asked to hear all about the vacation I recently >went on. I had to go and told her so, she cried, and asked when >she could call again, and I told her I was not ready to share >things with her yet, and needed more time. and she became more >upset than ever. BP's really do fear abandonment. it appears >she prefers being cussed out, and accused, than e-mail only. >woah. > >this makes me super sad for her. > >my problem is this: >she actually agreed to try to learn how to be nicer, and asked >me to " teach her " and I think she was sincere. (at least right >then) > >and yes I realize I am not responsible for her feelings but I >feel like a big jerk. my dad is so cold and affection-less, and >she really did depend on me. and I feel like I should be kind. >but I just don't have energy to give to her right now. > >and the biggest problem is that I know she will want an all or >nothing relationship. the second I open the door she will be >back to calling me all the time, grilling me, and whining when >I don't drop everything for her. > >I want to have the kind of relationship with her that I can >call her, or have her call me whenever there is actually >something going on, not having her ask the same invasive >judgmental things every week, and expecting a different answer. >and I want to be able to end the conversation whenever I >want/need to. > >is it possible to train a nada? or is that just mean? can I >send an e-mail that says: I want a healthy relationship with >you this is what it looks like: ... and set boundaries in >that way? > >I feel like I am being really mean dragging this on, and I am >scared of the backlash. (yes I know that is FOG) > >and isn't a bit of obligation in relationships right? how do I >move forward? > >Meikjn -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Meikjn, You are definitely not responsible for her feelings and you're not a big jerk. You say she depended on you. How? If I remember correctly you don't live near her, do you? So I don't think you mean she depends on you to do things she can't do. I think you mean she depends on you emotionally. Is that right? If so, mothers are not supposed to be emotionally dependent on their grown children. There's nothing wrong with not cooperating in that type of dependency. If she doesn't have you, she'll find someone else. You should be kind to her to some extent, but being kind is not the same thing as giving her whatever she wants. Sometimes the kindest thing to do is to remove yourself from a relationship or situation that is not healthy for either person. You ask if there's a way to train a nada. My answer is both yes and no. I've managed to train my nada to a certain extent. It took several years and she still backslides at times. What I've done is enforce my boundaries. If she violates them, she doesn't get what she wants. One of my big problems with her is that she loves to bad-mouth people. Once my little sister finished college and didn't need her to fill out paperwork any more I started fighting back against that. I never specifically told her what my rules were. I just enforce them. When she said something bad about me, my sister, either of our fathers or anyone else I cared about I told her I wasn't going to discuss that and when she continued I hung up or left. After a year or two the number of times she tried to continue the discussion diminished a lot. After a few more years she mostly stopped saying nasty things to me about me. She still tries to say bad things about my sister and my father (who divorced her over 30 years ago) sometimes but I rarely have to hang up on her. Training her that way has done nothing to change the way she thinks. It has simply made her understand that saying those things to me doesn't get the results she wants. She wants me to talk to her and do things for her more than she wants to say nasty things to me. I'm sure she still thinks those things and says them to other people and I'm pretty sure that she thinks my lack of desire to listen to her nasty comments is a defect in me, not her. I've worked on training her that I'm not going to come rushing to her rescue every time she creates an " emergency " in her life as well. That's starting to show some results. You could try to do something similar and it might work. It really depends on whether or not there's something that you control that she wants more than she wants to do the things you want her to stop doing. If there isn't, then you don't have any leverage to use to train her. About her agreement to let you teach her how to be nicer, I don't think that's a good idea or one that will have good results. She may have meant it at the time she said it but she's not going to continue meaning it, or if she really does, she needs a therapist trained in treating BPD to help her change. That's not a burden you should be taking on. Nadas act the way they do because that's the way their brains are wired to work. We can't change that. Even trained therapists have a lot of trouble teaching adults with BPD how to behave better. In my experience, telling a nada what your boundaries are isn't helpful. It feels to me like waving a big red flag at a bull and like telling her exactly what to do when she wants to raise a ruckus and upset me. Giving your nada a list of what a healthy relationship looks like could have one of two results if she's like my nada. One possibility is that she'll see it as a set of accusations and rebel against it. The other possibility is that she won't see how it applies to her behavior because she doesn't think there is anything wrong with her behavior. She could also use it as a way to justify other nada bahavior that isn't covered by your list. Your nada might be different from mine though. I don't think anything is cut and dried about what the best way to deal with a nada is. Assuming that she isn't going to change, what kind of relationship are you willing to have with her? I think that should be your starting point. If she really is willing to change, you can add more contact as she demonstrates changes to you. At 10:11 AM 07/29/2012 Meikjn wrote: >a sum-up of how the communication has been going: >-5 mos. ago: tried to scale back length and content of phone >conversations with nada. nada started being weepy/critical (you >just don't have time for ME anymore!!!) > >-5 mos: decided that I would start communicating by e-mail for >a while because I was doing medical treatment, and was told to >eliminate stress. > >-3/4 mos. Nada starts sending weird letters that include >criticism mixed with " i love you " and projections of all kinds >about how my life is just like hers, and her justifications for >why I am not living the life she sees for me. and all other >forms of nada-ness. as a result my slim desire to send the >e-mails evaporated,and I decided to only send notes when I feel >like it which is pretty rare. > >-2 mos. nada informs me that she will call me whenever she >wants in a birthday card, and says something along the lines of > " it has been months since I have heard your voice. " I am forced >to re-inforce my boundary. > >-most recently: Dad writes nasty e-mail informing me that the >medication I am on is making me " scary " (I am not on >medication)and making up theories about what is really going on >with me medically (I have been doing intense treatment for the >last 6 mos.) even though I have had a diagnosis for 5 years. > >-get foggy letter and a check attempting to pressure us into >coming to a family reunion that is over 25 hr drive away, and >DH is in the middle of writing his dissertation. > >-this week: Nada calls. I yell,and cuss her out, she >argues/attempts to gaslight, I hang up, she calls back, I >ignore her message, she calls back again I in a more calm way >tell her off some more she validates me a bit (what the?) and >then cheerfully asked to hear all about the vacation I recently >went on. I had to go and told her so, she cried, and asked when >she could call again, and I told her I was not ready to share >things with her yet, and needed more time. and she became more >upset than ever. BP's really do fear abandonment. it appears >she prefers being cussed out, and accused, than e-mail only. >woah. > >this makes me super sad for her. > >my problem is this: >she actually agreed to try to learn how to be nicer, and asked >me to " teach her " and I think she was sincere. (at least right >then) > >and yes I realize I am not responsible for her feelings but I >feel like a big jerk. my dad is so cold and affection-less, and >she really did depend on me. and I feel like I should be kind. >but I just don't have energy to give to her right now. > >and the biggest problem is that I know she will want an all or >nothing relationship. the second I open the door she will be >back to calling me all the time, grilling me, and whining when >I don't drop everything for her. > >I want to have the kind of relationship with her that I can >call her, or have her call me whenever there is actually >something going on, not having her ask the same invasive >judgmental things every week, and expecting a different answer. >and I want to be able to end the conversation whenever I >want/need to. > >is it possible to train a nada? or is that just mean? can I >send an e-mail that says: I want a healthy relationship with >you this is what it looks like: ... and set boundaries in >that way? > >I feel like I am being really mean dragging this on, and I am >scared of the backlash. (yes I know that is FOG) > >and isn't a bit of obligation in relationships right? how do I >move forward? > >Meikjn -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Meikjn, Something I was really reminded of recently is how impossible it is to recognize objective reality in the middle of a BPD/NPD fog. I realized that every time I am near a bpd and communicating with them, I have doubted myself and felt they really needed me and I just needed to be stronger. Maybe not every time--but it really does feel that way. It really is a fog. A part of us really does BELIEVE their truth. I am here to tell you: it's not true! Nada doesn't want to change, she wants to hoover you back so she can keep gratifying her compulsions with you as the puppet. If she wanted to change, she would be respecting your boundaries and working with her own therapist, sincerely. --Charlotte > > a sum-up of how the communication has been going: > -5 mos. ago: tried to scale back length and content of phone conversations with nada. nada started being weepy/critical (you just don't have time for ME anymore!!!) > > -5 mos: decided that I would start communicating by e-mail for a while because I was doing medical treatment, and was told to eliminate stress. > > -3/4 mos. Nada starts sending weird letters that include criticism mixed with " i love you " and projections of all kinds about how my life is just like hers, and her justifications for why I am not living the life she sees for me. and all other forms of nada-ness. as a result my slim desire to send the e-mails evaporated,and I decided to only send notes when I feel like it which is pretty rare. > > -2 mos. nada informs me that she will call me whenever she wants in a birthday card, and says something along the lines of " it has been months since I have heard your voice. " I am forced to re-inforce my boundary. > > -most recently: Dad writes nasty e-mail informing me that the medication I am on is making me " scary " (I am not on medication)and making up theories about what is really going on with me medically (I have been doing intense treatment for the last 6 mos.) even though I have had a diagnosis for 5 years. > > -get foggy letter and a check attempting to pressure us into coming to a family reunion that is over 25 hr drive away, and DH is in the middle of writing his dissertation. > > -this week: Nada calls. I yell,and cuss her out, she argues/attempts to gaslight, I hang up, she calls back, I ignore her message, she calls back again I in a more calm way tell her off some more she validates me a bit (what the?) and then cheerfully asked to hear all about the vacation I recently went on. I had to go and told her so, she cried, and asked when she could call again, and I told her I was not ready to share things with her yet, and needed more time. and she became more upset than ever. BP's really do fear abandonment. it appears she prefers being cussed out, and accused, than e-mail only. woah. > > this makes me super sad for her. > > my problem is this: > she actually agreed to try to learn how to be nicer, and asked me to " teach her " and I think she was sincere. (at least right then) > > and yes I realize I am not responsible for her feelings but I feel like a big jerk. my dad is so cold and affection-less, and she really did depend on me. and I feel like I should be kind. but I just don't have energy to give to her right now. > > and the biggest problem is that I know she will want an all or nothing relationship. the second I open the door she will be back to calling me all the time, grilling me, and whining when I don't drop everything for her. > > I want to have the kind of relationship with her that I can call her, or have her call me whenever there is actually something going on, not having her ask the same invasive judgmental things every week, and expecting a different answer. and I want to be able to end the conversation whenever I want/need to. > > is it possible to train a nada? or is that just mean? can I send an e-mail that says: I want a healthy relationship with you this is what it looks like: .... and set boundaries in that way? > > I feel like I am being really mean dragging this on, and I am scared of the backlash. (yes I know that is FOG) > > and isn't a bit of obligation in relationships right? how do I move forward? > > Meikjn > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Meikjn, Something I was really reminded of recently is how impossible it is to recognize objective reality in the middle of a BPD/NPD fog. I realized that every time I am near a bpd and communicating with them, I have doubted myself and felt they really needed me and I just needed to be stronger. Maybe not every time--but it really does feel that way. It really is a fog. A part of us really does BELIEVE their truth. I am here to tell you: it's not true! Nada doesn't want to change, she wants to hoover you back so she can keep gratifying her compulsions with you as the puppet. If she wanted to change, she would be respecting your boundaries and working with her own therapist, sincerely. --Charlotte > > a sum-up of how the communication has been going: > -5 mos. ago: tried to scale back length and content of phone conversations with nada. nada started being weepy/critical (you just don't have time for ME anymore!!!) > > -5 mos: decided that I would start communicating by e-mail for a while because I was doing medical treatment, and was told to eliminate stress. > > -3/4 mos. Nada starts sending weird letters that include criticism mixed with " i love you " and projections of all kinds about how my life is just like hers, and her justifications for why I am not living the life she sees for me. and all other forms of nada-ness. as a result my slim desire to send the e-mails evaporated,and I decided to only send notes when I feel like it which is pretty rare. > > -2 mos. nada informs me that she will call me whenever she wants in a birthday card, and says something along the lines of " it has been months since I have heard your voice. " I am forced to re-inforce my boundary. > > -most recently: Dad writes nasty e-mail informing me that the medication I am on is making me " scary " (I am not on medication)and making up theories about what is really going on with me medically (I have been doing intense treatment for the last 6 mos.) even though I have had a diagnosis for 5 years. > > -get foggy letter and a check attempting to pressure us into coming to a family reunion that is over 25 hr drive away, and DH is in the middle of writing his dissertation. > > -this week: Nada calls. I yell,and cuss her out, she argues/attempts to gaslight, I hang up, she calls back, I ignore her message, she calls back again I in a more calm way tell her off some more she validates me a bit (what the?) and then cheerfully asked to hear all about the vacation I recently went on. I had to go and told her so, she cried, and asked when she could call again, and I told her I was not ready to share things with her yet, and needed more time. and she became more upset than ever. BP's really do fear abandonment. it appears she prefers being cussed out, and accused, than e-mail only. woah. > > this makes me super sad for her. > > my problem is this: > she actually agreed to try to learn how to be nicer, and asked me to " teach her " and I think she was sincere. (at least right then) > > and yes I realize I am not responsible for her feelings but I feel like a big jerk. my dad is so cold and affection-less, and she really did depend on me. and I feel like I should be kind. but I just don't have energy to give to her right now. > > and the biggest problem is that I know she will want an all or nothing relationship. the second I open the door she will be back to calling me all the time, grilling me, and whining when I don't drop everything for her. > > I want to have the kind of relationship with her that I can call her, or have her call me whenever there is actually something going on, not having her ask the same invasive judgmental things every week, and expecting a different answer. and I want to be able to end the conversation whenever I want/need to. > > is it possible to train a nada? or is that just mean? can I send an e-mail that says: I want a healthy relationship with you this is what it looks like: .... and set boundaries in that way? > > I feel like I am being really mean dragging this on, and I am scared of the backlash. (yes I know that is FOG) > > and isn't a bit of obligation in relationships right? how do I move forward? > > Meikjn > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 Hi Meikjn, There is mutual care and support in a normal relationship--not obligation. There is no need for obligation in a satisfying relationship, because we find we want to meet the other person's needs and they want to meet ours (at least enough of the time to keep things going). We sometimes consider what is " fair " and make compromises in a relationship so that people with different needs and preferences can still have their needs met by one another, but the thing is there is not much (if any) real care and support in your nada's relationship with you. She exploits and manipulates people to get her needs met, and her needs are usually beyond the capacity of a healthy human being to meet out of sheer good will. The thing with bpds is when they appear able to do what we need them to do, they are generally enmeshed with us. They feel they *are* us. This is preferable to abandonment and isolation--they'd rather be you than just being themselves with themselves. This is fine for a while, but then they start to feel suffocated and overpowered. The need for autonomy and a sense of " self " starts to assert itself. This builds up to a point of crisis, which usually culminates in resentment, rage, and recrimination. They will then tell you you " forced " them to follow your rules. This will usually remain their take on the situation, and they will trot out this accusation whenever you assert your boundaries again. I don't think you can train a nada. As an aside, she was probably quite happy to be cussed out and yelled at, because you were acting out the rage she felt at you. I would also keep in mind that your cold, affectionless father probably meets important needs of your nadas--otherwise she wouldn't have chosen a relationship with him or stuck it out all these years. A lot can happen between our parents that we don't see--especially if what our parents tell us about their relationship isn't entirely true. What's amazing to me about your story is your nada's continued narcissism. Clearly, you aren't well at the moment. Your medical condition is obviously a serious matter, and yet what is of primary concern to your nada is getting enough time and attention from you. Her lack of normal human concern or ability to give is stunning. I don't think your nada is either capable or desirous of a healthy relationship. It may be time to think of what kind of relationship is possible and not harmful to you to have with her. With your nada, I'm not sure if it's abandonment or a loss of control over others that she fears. (They probably amount to the same thing.) Just my thoughts. Take care, Ashana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 - my hang up is that I have already tried to create the relationship that would make me more comfortable. I decided that I wanted to cut back on the time spent on the phone, and that there were things in my life I would rather not have her know about because I don't want to deal with her opinions/disapproval. -previously she would call once a week, and I would drop everything and talk to her for HOURS. She would often start with a jab like " it would be just my luck if you were eating diner " or " I am so glad I caught you you ALWAYS seem to be busy when I call " no mater how much I talked to her the week before.That was followed by a weekly grilling. -when I decided to start ending the conversations so I could have a life she became very rude. " you just don't have time for me anymore " " you always seem to be too busy for me " and grilling DH about why I was " mad " at her when he was the one who answered. And all I did was make the conversations shorter and decide not to tell her everything she wanted to hear. I just feel like I should have a choice about how to live my own life. - so, I decided on the e-mail once a week thing. every note/e-mail she sent me had something snide in it. I hope our " silence " is helping you " heal " (this was after I told her I was undergoing extensive medical treatment, she included quotes and all) she also kept demanding in all caps to know WHY!! and insisting that conversations with her are wonderful. her fist letter started with " I hope it ok with you that I send this one (underlined) letter. her next letter started with " since you never informed me if my last letter was a no-no (what am I 5?) I decided to send you another one! so rude. I am starting to realize that my issue with resuming contact by phone is that I can't take her weepiness, and I can't go back to telling her everything,and I don't like the guilt trips about me having a life outside of her right then. To be blunt we have nothing in common. And she gives way to much unsolicited advice. and deniably tells me I am not living my life by her stamp of approval, then tells me she is " so proud " and that she " loves me " which makes me hate those words, which makes me mad. and I can't even bring myself to e-mail her right now. she was so rude that I was sending her those e-mails at all. It made me so frustrated. I was trying to make a break from the phone easier for her. And not only did she apparently not make any attempt to show appreciation, she made fun of it. and the first time I skipped a week she gave me a guilt trip. " keep the e-mails coming we watch for them for sure! " (she likes exclamation points) This statement is fine in and of itself. But after being rude about every other one I sent it just felt off. my nada is the queen of conflicting statements. my practical question is this: If I were to start e-mailing her again should I start by explaining to her that these kinds of statements are hurtful, and that that is why I stopped e-mailing her? or should I only correct the behavior as it happens? on the one hand I feel like dragging up her behavior when she was feeling hurt is mean. on the other hand I feel like if I tell her before hand, then it both establishes the boundary (giving me an opening later) and might possibly prevent it, which would make things a little easier for me. It would also be better for her because then I would not turn into a nag if I have to correct her letters all the time. or is there a door number 3? thanks for all of the support you give. Meikjn > > Hi Meikjn, > > There is mutual care and support in a normal relationship--not obligation. There is no need for obligation in a satisfying relationship, because we find we want to meet the other person's needs and they want to meet ours (at least enough of the time to keep things going). > > We sometimes consider what is " fair " and make compromises in a relationship so that people with different needs and preferences can still have their needs met by one another, but the thing is there is not much (if any) real care and support in your nada's relationship with you. She exploits and manipulates people to get her needs met, and her needs are usually beyond the capacity of a healthy human being to meet out of sheer good will. > > The thing with bpds is when they appear able to do what we need them to do, they are generally enmeshed with us. They feel they *are* us. This is preferable to abandonment and isolation--they'd rather be you than just being themselves with themselves. This is fine for a while, but then they start to feel suffocated and overpowered. The need for autonomy and a sense of " self " starts to assert itself. This builds up to a point of crisis, which usually culminates in resentment, rage, and recrimination. They will then tell you you " forced " them to follow your rules. This will usually remain their take on the situation, and they will trot out this accusation whenever you assert your boundaries again. > > I don't think you can train a nada. > > As an aside, she was probably quite happy to be cussed out and yelled at, because you were acting out the rage she felt at you. > > I would also keep in mind that your cold, affectionless father probably meets important needs of your nadas--otherwise she wouldn't have chosen a relationship with him or stuck it out all these years. A lot can happen between our parents that we don't see--especially if what our parents tell us about their relationship isn't entirely true. > > What's amazing to me about your story is your nada's continued narcissism. Clearly, you aren't well at the moment. Your medical condition is obviously a serious matter, and yet what is of primary concern to your nada is getting enough time and attention from you. Her lack of normal human concern or ability to give is stunning. > > I don't think your nada is either capable or desirous of a healthy relationship. It may be time to think of what kind of relationship is possible and not harmful to you to have with her. > > With your nada, I'm not sure if it's abandonment or a loss of control over others that she fears. (They probably amount to the same thing.) > > Just my thoughts. > > Take care, > Ashana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Meikjn, I am again astounded at her absolute selfishness. I think the issue is this: her core belief is that the world exists to serve her. This includes you. Anything less than this is a violation of her rights in some way, and she will express either indignation or sorrow about it. The reality that she does not possess this right eludes her. So, no, your consideration of her by weaning her down to an email a week is not appreciated. She won't appreciate anything less than abject servitude--which is actually not even humanly possible. We are all wired to be our own selves and live our own lives. If it were me, I wouldn't respond to anything she says in any of her letters or emails. I am not sure it's even necessary to read them. She probably forgets them as soon as she writes them anyway. I would just make all communications newsy, cheerful, and brief and I would stick to topics like gardening, knitting, and the weather. She is not expecting an exchange. What she's expecting is she gets to dump her bad feelings on you and you give her attention and a sense of importance. I have no idea how this will pan out in real life. And I do hope you are healing! Take care, Ashana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 Setting boundaries doesn't mean that your person with bpd will change the way they think, feel, and interpret the world, the way they react, or the way they behave. Setting boundaries only means that you have decided what you will or will not tolerate. I think that possibly you are thinking that by setting boundaries with your nada, that this will somehow make her understand that what she is doing and saying to you is hurtful and irritating and makes you stressed-out and ill. Perhaps you are thinking that if you can just find the right the words and say them in the right way, your nada will have an epiphany of understanding and realize that she is driving you away and she needs to behave differently if she wants to remain in your life. But the truth is that you didn't make your mother the way she is, you can't control her, and you can't change her. But if you are consistent about enforcing your boundaries, such as cutting calls short when your mother is being snarky and demanding, controlling, sarcastic and hostile toward you, then she may eventually come to understand that if she behaves in a more kindly and less hostile way, she will get more time with you. Me personally, I think it only works when you set up and maintain a regular schedule of communication with the nada, and your boundaries are enforced right in the moment, right when nada begins engaging in a specific negative, intolerable behavior. " Mom, I'm not going to listen to you when you: call me names or insult me/ are sarcastic with me/ when you are upset and crying/ make false accusations/ scream at me in rage/ attempt to pick a fight with me, etc. But we can try talking again next week when I phone you at the regular time; I'm sure you'll be calmer by then. 'Bye. " Its so not easy to do this. I couldn't; I had to go total No Contact. My Sister wanted to remain in at least some contact so Sister decided to set and maintain firm boundaries, and she had to do it constantly, and give consequences. The consequence for my nada was No Contact for a few days or a few weeks, until nada was able to own up to what she'd done and apologize. Sister looked on those No Contact periods as mini-vacations. Sister's boundaries did not change my nada's behaviors, but they created a kind of rule-book for my Sister RE what was and was not acceptable to Sister. If our nada called Sister a liar, or accused Sister of stealing or said something equally reprehensible to Sister, Sister would ask nada, " Do you really mean that? " giving nada the opportunity to re-think her ugly outburst and retract it, but if nada said " Yes, I meant it! " then Sister went No Contact for however long it took for nada to apologize. Over, and over, and over. My nada was severely mentally ill and not capable of changing; she eventually declined into dementia. Your nada might be less severely affected by bpd, possibly, and capable of wanting to change herself. Only you know what you are willing or not willing to tolerate and whether you feel like experimenting, or not. I hope you will find something that will work for you and give you greater peace and serenity so you can heal. -Annie > > > > Hi Meikjn, > > > > There is mutual care and support in a normal relationship--not obligation. There is no need for obligation in a satisfying relationship, because we find we want to meet the other person's needs and they want to meet ours (at least enough of the time to keep things going). > > > > We sometimes consider what is " fair " and make compromises in a relationship so that people with different needs and preferences can still have their needs met by one another, but the thing is there is not much (if any) real care and support in your nada's relationship with you. She exploits and manipulates people to get her needs met, and her needs are usually beyond the capacity of a healthy human being to meet out of sheer good will. > > > > The thing with bpds is when they appear able to do what we need them to do, they are generally enmeshed with us. They feel they *are* us. This is preferable to abandonment and isolation--they'd rather be you than just being themselves with themselves. This is fine for a while, but then they start to feel suffocated and overpowered. The need for autonomy and a sense of " self " starts to assert itself. This builds up to a point of crisis, which usually culminates in resentment, rage, and recrimination. They will then tell you you " forced " them to follow your rules. This will usually remain their take on the situation, and they will trot out this accusation whenever you assert your boundaries again. > > > > I don't think you can train a nada. > > > > As an aside, she was probably quite happy to be cussed out and yelled at, because you were acting out the rage she felt at you. > > > > I would also keep in mind that your cold, affectionless father probably meets important needs of your nadas--otherwise she wouldn't have chosen a relationship with him or stuck it out all these years. A lot can happen between our parents that we don't see--especially if what our parents tell us about their relationship isn't entirely true. > > > > What's amazing to me about your story is your nada's continued narcissism. Clearly, you aren't well at the moment. Your medical condition is obviously a serious matter, and yet what is of primary concern to your nada is getting enough time and attention from you. Her lack of normal human concern or ability to give is stunning. > > > > I don't think your nada is either capable or desirous of a healthy relationship. It may be time to think of what kind of relationship is possible and not harmful to you to have with her. > > > > With your nada, I'm not sure if it's abandonment or a loss of control over others that she fears. (They probably amount to the same thing.) > > > > Just my thoughts. > > > > Take care, > > Ashana > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2012 Report Share Posted August 1, 2012 I don't think there is any point to explaining to her that those kind of statements are hurtful. Either she won't care or she won't believe that her statements really fit your description of what is hurtful. She doesn't have the emotional maturity to understand. I'd go with reacting to her behavior as it happens, just as you react to a puppy's bad behavior as it happens. In general, nadas are just not emotionally capable of understanding what is wrong with their behavior, or they know it is wrong in theory but think it is justified in their specific case. Just as dogs don't have to understand why their behavior is wrong to be trained to behave better, some nadas can be trained to some extent. If you react to her misbehavior in a way that results in her not getting what she wants, she may (not will, just may) change her behavior. For there to be any chance of that, you have to be firm and consistent in maintaining your boundaries and you have to punish her misbehavior in a way that really means something to her. It is more likely that she won't change and your boundaries will simply be your method of knowing when to take action of some sort yourself. I think it is best to assume that there will be no change in her behavior. If there is change, then it will be a pleasant surprise. Even if there is change, I don't think you can trust it to be a lasting change. My nada treats me much better than she used to, but every time she calls I'm afraid she's going to go back to her old ways and say or do something nasty. I have no delusion that her thinking has changed at all. I still have occasional nightmares that feature her doing/trying to do all sorts of things to me or to my sister. I don't think that will ever change. Putting a stop to her mistreatment of you when it happens does not count as " turning into a nag " . You aren't the one who is in the wrong. She is. Correcting her behavior when she is hurting is not mean. If she were a normal person who only felt hurt when there was a real reason to be hurt, it might be mean to correct an occasional hurt-inspired episode. She's not a normal person though and being emotionally out of control is not an excuse for being emotionally abusive to you. Correcting her is an attempt to stop a pattern of abuse, not a single rare act of inconsideration under emotional pressure. I don't communicate with my nada by e-mail because using e-mail allows her to rant and rave and say abusive things without immediate boundary enforcement. I can't just stop her at the sentence where she starts trespassing over my boundaries like I can when I talk to her on the phone. As much as I dread hearing the sound of her voice on the phone, phone calls give me a much bigger sense of control over our interactions. If e-mail is a more comfortable way of communicating for you, maybe the thing to do is to act like you never saw any message that crosses your boundaries. That might be one of the situations where saying something about the boundary before enforcing it might make sense. You might say something like " mom, I'll read and respond to one message a week as long as you don't call me names or make nasty comments " . The big problem with that is that she'll try to find ways to obey the letter of your demands without obeying the spirit of them. If you try something like this, stop reading the messages at the point where she stops obeying your boundaries. If she sends more messages than allowed ignore them. The point of boundaries is to protect yourself from her behavior and reading messages that don't follow your boundaries defeats the purpose of having them. It doesn't work to respond to problem messages. That's getting into a pissing match that you can't win. The only way to win arguments with a nada is not to engage in arguments at all. At 05:03 PM 08/01/2012 Meikjn wrote: > > >- my hang up is that I have already tried to create the >relationship that would make me more comfortable. I decided >that I wanted to cut back on the time spent on the phone, and >that there were things in my life I would rather not have her >know about because I don't want to deal with her >opinions/disapproval. > >-previously she would call once a week, and I would drop >everything and talk to her for HOURS. She would often start >with a jab like " it would be just my luck if you were eating >diner " or " I am so glad I caught you you ALWAYS seem to be busy >when I call " no mater how much I talked to her the week >before.That was followed by a weekly grilling. > >-when I decided to start ending the conversations so I could >have a life she became very rude. " you just don't have time for >me anymore " " you always seem to be too busy for me " and >grilling DH about why I was " mad " at her when he was the one >who answered. And all I did was make the conversations shorter >and decide not to tell her everything she wanted to hear. I >just feel like I should have a choice about how to live my own >life. > >- so, I decided on the e-mail once a week thing. every >note/e-mail she sent me had something snide in it. I hope our > " silence " is helping you " heal " (this was after I told her I >was undergoing extensive medical treatment, she included quotes >and all) she also kept demanding in all caps to know WHY!! and >insisting that conversations with her are wonderful. her fist >letter started with " I hope it ok with you that I send this one >(underlined) letter. her next letter started with " since you >never informed me if my last letter was a no-no (what am I 5?) >I decided to send you another one! > >so rude. > >I am starting to realize that my issue with resuming contact by >phone is that I can't take her weepiness, and I can't go back >to telling her everything,and I don't like the guilt trips >about me having a life outside of her right then. To be blunt >we have nothing in common. And she gives way to much >unsolicited advice. and deniably tells me I am not living my >life by her stamp of approval, then tells me she is " so proud " >and that she " loves me " which makes me hate those words, which >makes me mad. > >and I can't even bring myself to e-mail her right now. she was >so rude that I was sending her those e-mails at all. It made me >so frustrated. I was trying to make a break from the phone >easier for her. And not only did she apparently not make any >attempt to show appreciation, she made fun of it. and the first >time I skipped a week she gave me a guilt trip. " keep the >e-mails coming we watch for them for sure! " (she likes >exclamation points) This statement is fine in and of itself. >But after being rude about every other one I sent it just felt >off. > > my nada is the queen of conflicting statements. > > my practical question is this: > >If I were to start e-mailing her again should I start by >explaining to her that these kinds of statements are hurtful, >and that that is why I stopped e-mailing her? or should I only >correct the behavior as it happens? >on the one hand I feel like dragging up her behavior when she >was feeling hurt is mean. >on the other hand I feel like if I tell her before hand, then >it both establishes the boundary (giving me an opening later) >and might possibly prevent it, which would make things a little >easier for me. It would also be better for her because then I >would not turn into a nag if I have to correct her letters all >the time. > >or is there a door number 3? > >thanks for all of the support you give. >Meikjn > -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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