Guest guest Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 a couple months ago I talked to my sister on the phone. she pressured me to have our nada fly out and watch my kids while I was going out of town, and guilt tripped me about DH and I possibly moving even further from the family " how will my kids know your kids? " most of the family lives pretty close to each other, and so the belief is that we have to visit them, they will not visit us. My perfect handsome golden brother also recently went to an interview right by where we were thinking of moving. and so the next time I talked to her I made an idle comment that It would be really interesting if he were to move there too, because then people in the family who had been giving us crap would not be able to say anything about it. to which she replied " who is giving you crap? " I was a good girl and just said. uhhh never mind, and moved on. I did send her an e-mail asking her to not interfere with nada and I. this sister is the bossiest, and most sarcastic person I have ever met. and although she seems too grounded in reality to be bPD she has some major fleas I got a rather weird e-mail from her yesterday. it made me upset and so I deleted it, and it is gone now. so, i can sum it up. basically she told me that the conversation (I am not sure which conversation/or what I said) I had had with her made her feel belittled, and bullied. and that she " forgives me " but that our relationship will never be the same. and touted her bravery for telling me so. she went on the tell me that at church someone quoted from one of our church leaders sermons that was broadcast a couple months ago, about forgiveness (it was one of those really preachy ones. he basically said if you can't forgive just stop it.) and that she decided that she had forgiven me. then she concluded by telling me that she hopes forgiveness is contagious. uh..... is there a way to respond without groveling? I guess I am sorry to have hurt her feelings, but actually other than the one rude comment I was biting my tongue the whole time. I think this is more just her projecting her feelings about how I am giving nada the " silent treatment " as they are calling it. and honestly my relationship with her has always been very unhealthy. I tried hard to make it work off an on and I think she tried too, but she can't shake nada's teachings that I am not capable of real feelings. and she like nada still thinks I am a naughty 5 year old. she believes (and says) she is entitled to order me around because she is older (18 mos.) and I don't do things right. I am leaning toward not responding because this feels like a manipulation. the only nice response is to apologize, but there was no acknowledgment of even the possibility that she had anything to do with the situation. this just seemed so self-righteous and very unforgiving. but telling her so is not very nice. she is mad and won't talk to since my asking her to but out of nada and I's relationship. I think Nada is exercising her super human powers of denial with regards to me and pretending to the outside world that everything is fine. but this sister will probably tell tho world I am going to Hell soon. DH is relived. he has always hated the way she treats me, and is happy I see it now. he has been saying she is a jerk for years. and the sad part is that he never saw how bad she used to be. sometimes I feel like I am ripping my family apart, but I can't let them use me anymore. feeling very stuck. Meikjn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 " Forgiving " people who haven't done anything that needs to be forgiven can be a form of passive aggression. It seems likely to me that your sister is still drinking the nada koolaid. If she is not being rational, you can't have a rational discussion with her about how she feels or your relationship. If you can't have a rational discussion, I don't see what is to be gained from replying to that message at all. I think your husband is probably right in thinking that she's a jerk. You are not the one who is ripping your family apart. It is not your fault that your nada has BPD or that your sister has issues. Not letting your FOO use you any more is a good choice. Stay strong and do what is best for you and your husband. If that means moving away, do it and don't feel guilty about leaving your FOO behind. At 09:12 PM 08/20/2012 Meikjn wrote: >a couple months ago I talked to my sister on the phone. she >pressured me to have our nada fly out and watch my kids while I >was going out of town, and guilt tripped me about DH and I >possibly moving even further from the family " how will my kids >know your kids? " most of the family lives pretty close to each >other, and so the belief is that we have to visit them, they >will not visit us. > >My perfect handsome golden brother also recently went to an >interview right by where we were thinking of moving. > >and so the next time I talked to her I made an idle comment >that It would be really interesting if he were to move there >too, because then people in the family who had been giving us >crap would not be able to say anything about it. to which she >replied " who is giving you crap? " I was a good girl and just >said. uhhh never mind, and moved on. > >I did send her an e-mail asking her to not interfere with nada >and I. > >this sister is the bossiest, and most sarcastic person I have >ever met. and although she seems too grounded in reality to be >bPD she has some major fleas > > > I got a rather weird e-mail from her yesterday. it made me > upset and so I deleted it, and it is gone now. so, i can sum > it up. > >basically she told me that the conversation (I am not sure >which conversation/or what I said) I had had with her made her >feel belittled, and bullied. and that she " forgives me " but >that our relationship will never be the same. and touted her >bravery for telling me so. > >she went on the tell me that at church someone quoted from one >of our church leaders sermons that was broadcast a couple >months ago, about forgiveness (it was one of those really >preachy ones. he basically said if you can't forgive just stop >it.) and that she decided that she had forgiven me. > >then she concluded by telling me that she hopes forgiveness is >contagious. > > >uh..... > >is there a way to respond without groveling? I guess I am sorry >to have hurt her feelings, but actually other than the one rude >comment I was biting my tongue the whole time. > >I think this is more just her projecting her feelings about how >I am giving nada the " silent treatment " as they are calling it. > >and honestly my relationship with her has always been very >unhealthy. I tried hard to make it work off an on and I think >she tried too, but she can't shake nada's teachings that I am >not capable of real feelings. and she like nada still thinks I >am a naughty 5 year old. she believes (and says) she is >entitled to order me around because she is older (18 mos.) and >I don't do things right. > >I am leaning toward not responding because this feels like a >manipulation. the only nice response is to apologize, but there >was no acknowledgment of even the possibility that she had >anything to do with the situation. this just seemed so >self-righteous and very unforgiving. but telling her so is not >very nice. > >she is mad and won't talk to since my asking her to but out of >nada and I's relationship. > >I think Nada is exercising her super human powers of denial >with regards to me and pretending to the outside world that >everything is fine. but this sister will probably tell tho >world I am going to Hell soon. DH is relived. he has always >hated the way she treats me, and is happy I see it now. he has >been saying she is a jerk for years. and the sad part is that >he never saw how bad she used to be. > >sometimes I feel like I am ripping my family apart, but I can't >let them use me anymore. > >feeling very stuck. > >Meikjn > -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 I am confused. I thought a person had to ask for forgiveness in order to receive it from someone else. How can forgiveness be extended if you didn't ask for it?? Personally I don't think you need to ask for it. What kind of church is she going to?? I have never heard any sermon like that in all my years as a Christian. > > a couple months ago I talked to my sister on the phone. she pressured me to have our nada fly out and watch my kids while I was going out of town, and guilt tripped me about DH and I possibly moving even further from the family " how will my kids know your kids? " most of the family lives pretty close to each other, and so the belief is that we have to visit them, they will not visit us. > > My perfect handsome golden brother also recently went to an interview right by where we were thinking of moving. > > and so the next time I talked to her I made an idle comment that It would be really interesting if he were to move there too, because then people in the family who had been giving us crap would not be able to say anything about it. to which she replied " who is giving you crap? " I was a good girl and just said. uhhh never mind, and moved on. > > I did send her an e-mail asking her to not interfere with nada and I. > > this sister is the bossiest, and most sarcastic person I have ever met. and although she seems too grounded in reality to be bPD she has some major fleas > > > I got a rather weird e-mail from her yesterday. it made me upset and so I deleted it, and it is gone now. so, i can sum it up. > > basically she told me that the conversation (I am not sure which conversation/or what I said) I had had with her made her feel belittled, and bullied. and that she " forgives me " but that our relationship will never be the same. and touted her bravery for telling me so. > > she went on the tell me that at church someone quoted from one of our church leaders sermons that was broadcast a couple months ago, about forgiveness (it was one of those really preachy ones. he basically said if you can't forgive just stop it.) and that she decided that she had forgiven me. > > then she concluded by telling me that she hopes forgiveness is contagious. > > > uh..... > > is there a way to respond without groveling? I guess I am sorry to have hurt her feelings, but actually other than the one rude comment I was biting my tongue the whole time. > > I think this is more just her projecting her feelings about how I am giving nada the " silent treatment " as they are calling it. > > and honestly my relationship with her has always been very unhealthy. I tried hard to make it work off an on and I think she tried too, but she can't shake nada's teachings that I am not capable of real feelings. and she like nada still thinks I am a naughty 5 year old. she believes (and says) she is entitled to order me around because she is older (18 mos.) and I don't do things right. > > I am leaning toward not responding because this feels like a manipulation. the only nice response is to apologize, but there was no acknowledgment of even the possibility that she had anything to do with the situation. this just seemed so self-righteous and very unforgiving. but telling her so is not very nice. > > she is mad and won't talk to since my asking her to but out of nada and I's relationship. > > I think Nada is exercising her super human powers of denial with regards to me and pretending to the outside world that everything is fine. but this sister will probably tell tho world I am going to Hell soon. DH is relived. he has always hated the way she treats me, and is happy I see it now. he has been saying she is a jerk for years. and the sad part is that he never saw how bad she used to be. > > sometimes I feel like I am ripping my family apart, but I can't let them use me anymore. > > feeling very stuck. > > Meikjn > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Meikjn, I so, so, SO feel what you're going through. I have a cousin who is just like your sister. Such a commandeering, controlling, guilt-dispensing machine who tells everyone what to do, how to do it, etc. She loves to tell me how MY kids are missing out because I don't go over to her house so they can be with her kids. My first gut reaction after reading your post is simply to not respond to your sister, as you mentioned. You don't have to. It sounds like she has a guilt-hold over you (as my brother tends to have on me) and there is a dance here: she dispenses the guilt, you dance and apologize; she may or may not forgive, repeat. It just seems to me that even if you try to explain your side of it, she is not going to hear you. I know I've been saying this a lot lately, but I strongly recommend " Boundaries " or any book on boundaries. It really helps when we're in these situations with controlling, manipulative people in our lives to look at the situation from a birds-eye perspective and get distance from it. My brother and mother constantly talk about me behind my back. I know that because she talks to me about him behind HIS back. And I know he sees my LC with her as wrong and bad and they discuss that, too. It used to bother me more. Sometimes it hurts that a normal, healthy relationship with them isn't possible. Good luck!! Fiona > > a couple months ago I talked to my sister on the phone. she pressured me to have our nada fly out and watch my kids while I was going out of town, and guilt tripped me about DH and I possibly moving even further from the family " how will my kids know your kids? " most of the family lives pretty close to each other, and so the belief is that we have to visit them, they will not visit us. > > My perfect handsome golden brother also recently went to an interview right by where we were thinking of moving. > > and so the next time I talked to her I made an idle comment that It would be really interesting if he were to move there too, because then people in the family who had been giving us crap would not be able to say anything about it. to which she replied " who is giving you crap? " I was a good girl and just said. uhhh never mind, and moved on. > > I did send her an e-mail asking her to not interfere with nada and I. > > this sister is the bossiest, and most sarcastic person I have ever met. and although she seems too grounded in reality to be bPD she has some major fleas > > > I got a rather weird e-mail from her yesterday. it made me upset and so I deleted it, and it is gone now. so, i can sum it up. > > basically she told me that the conversation (I am not sure which conversation/or what I said) I had had with her made her feel belittled, and bullied. and that she " forgives me " but that our relationship will never be the same. and touted her bravery for telling me so. > > she went on the tell me that at church someone quoted from one of our church leaders sermons that was broadcast a couple months ago, about forgiveness (it was one of those really preachy ones. he basically said if you can't forgive just stop it.) and that she decided that she had forgiven me. > > then she concluded by telling me that she hopes forgiveness is contagious. > > > uh..... > > is there a way to respond without groveling? I guess I am sorry to have hurt her feelings, but actually other than the one rude comment I was biting my tongue the whole time. > > I think this is more just her projecting her feelings about how I am giving nada the " silent treatment " as they are calling it. > > and honestly my relationship with her has always been very unhealthy. I tried hard to make it work off an on and I think she tried too, but she can't shake nada's teachings that I am not capable of real feelings. and she like nada still thinks I am a naughty 5 year old. she believes (and says) she is entitled to order me around because she is older (18 mos.) and I don't do things right. > > I am leaning toward not responding because this feels like a manipulation. the only nice response is to apologize, but there was no acknowledgment of even the possibility that she had anything to do with the situation. this just seemed so self-righteous and very unforgiving. but telling her so is not very nice. > > she is mad and won't talk to since my asking her to but out of nada and I's relationship. > > I think Nada is exercising her super human powers of denial with regards to me and pretending to the outside world that everything is fine. but this sister will probably tell tho world I am going to Hell soon. DH is relived. he has always hated the way she treats me, and is happy I see it now. he has been saying she is a jerk for years. and the sad part is that he never saw how bad she used to be. > > sometimes I feel like I am ripping my family apart, but I can't let them use me anymore. > > feeling very stuck. > > Meikjn > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 REally well put, Katrina. This is my take on the situation as well. You have done nothing to be forgiven for, Meikjn. Your sister is still a bossy jerk, just at a lower volume than she used to be. You don't have to respond to her e-mail, which is indeed a veiled, indirect, or passive-aggressive condemnation of you remaining in No Contact with your nada, which is none of Sister's business. And her opinions about you or what you choose to do with your life are simply irrelevant and meaningless, like a dog barking into the wind. Its OK to ignore her barking. -Annie > >a couple months ago I talked to my sister on the phone. she > >pressured me to have our nada fly out and watch my kids while I > >was going out of town, and guilt tripped me about DH and I > >possibly moving even further from the family " how will my kids > >know your kids? " most of the family lives pretty close to each > >other, and so the belief is that we have to visit them, they > >will not visit us. > > > >My perfect handsome golden brother also recently went to an > >interview right by where we were thinking of moving. > > > >and so the next time I talked to her I made an idle comment > >that It would be really interesting if he were to move there > >too, because then people in the family who had been giving us > >crap would not be able to say anything about it. to which she > >replied " who is giving you crap? " I was a good girl and just > >said. uhhh never mind, and moved on. > > > >I did send her an e-mail asking her to not interfere with nada > >and I. > > > >this sister is the bossiest, and most sarcastic person I have > >ever met. and although she seems too grounded in reality to be > >bPD she has some major fleas > > > > > > I got a rather weird e-mail from her yesterday. it made me > > upset and so I deleted it, and it is gone now. so, i can sum > > it up. > > > >basically she told me that the conversation (I am not sure > >which conversation/or what I said) I had had with her made her > >feel belittled, and bullied. and that she " forgives me " but > >that our relationship will never be the same. and touted her > >bravery for telling me so. > > > >she went on the tell me that at church someone quoted from one > >of our church leaders sermons that was broadcast a couple > >months ago, about forgiveness (it was one of those really > >preachy ones. he basically said if you can't forgive just stop > >it.) and that she decided that she had forgiven me. > > > >then she concluded by telling me that she hopes forgiveness is > >contagious. > > > > > >uh..... > > > >is there a way to respond without groveling? I guess I am sorry > >to have hurt her feelings, but actually other than the one rude > >comment I was biting my tongue the whole time. > > > >I think this is more just her projecting her feelings about how > >I am giving nada the " silent treatment " as they are calling it. > > > >and honestly my relationship with her has always been very > >unhealthy. I tried hard to make it work off an on and I think > >she tried too, but she can't shake nada's teachings that I am > >not capable of real feelings. and she like nada still thinks I > >am a naughty 5 year old. she believes (and says) she is > >entitled to order me around because she is older (18 mos.) and > >I don't do things right. > > > >I am leaning toward not responding because this feels like a > >manipulation. the only nice response is to apologize, but there > >was no acknowledgment of even the possibility that she had > >anything to do with the situation. this just seemed so > >self-righteous and very unforgiving. but telling her so is not > >very nice. > > > >she is mad and won't talk to since my asking her to but out of > >nada and I's relationship. > > > >I think Nada is exercising her super human powers of denial > >with regards to me and pretending to the outside world that > >everything is fine. but this sister will probably tell tho > >world I am going to Hell soon. DH is relived. he has always > >hated the way she treats me, and is happy I see it now. he has > >been saying she is a jerk for years. and the sad part is that > >he never saw how bad she used to be. > > > >sometimes I feel like I am ripping my family apart, but I can't > >let them use me anymore. > > > >feeling very stuck. > > > >Meikjn > > > > -- > Katrina > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 the sermon was about being kind, and overcoming being offended it was generally about dealing with normal problems. it did also address not talking to people though. and it is being used as a convenient doge for jerks in my family. they have managed to twist it to fit their needs. I think there are lots of religious angles for blaming the victim, but in the end it is all just excuses abusive people all make. put simply, even though I still go to the same church, I do not subscribe to the same beliefs in so many ways. not surprisingly much of my family is VERY black and white and rather self righteousness about it, and we are taught to avoid that like everyone else they just are too blind to see it. I think forgiveness is a personal thing, and it does not need to be broadcast unless the situation dictates that. but I agree it is weird that she informed me of her " forgiveness " without any discussion, or apologies on either side. it all just feels so off. in her e-mail she also wined that she was convinced I would not even read it, so I think she is just fishing for an apology, and not responding on my part is a convenient thing for her to be mad about. yeah I think I will stay out of this one. this is one HUGE advantage of e-mail. I will live. Meikjn > > > > a couple months ago I talked to my sister on the phone. she pressured me to have our nada fly out and watch my kids while I was going out of town, and guilt tripped me about DH and I possibly moving even further from the family " how will my kids know your kids? " most of the family lives pretty close to each other, and so the belief is that we have to visit them, they will not visit us. > > > > My perfect handsome golden brother also recently went to an interview right by where we were thinking of moving. > > > > and so the next time I talked to her I made an idle comment that It would be really interesting if he were to move there too, because then people in the family who had been giving us crap would not be able to say anything about it. to which she replied " who is giving you crap? " I was a good girl and just said. uhhh never mind, and moved on. > > > > I did send her an e-mail asking her to not interfere with nada and I. > > > > this sister is the bossiest, and most sarcastic person I have ever met. and although she seems too grounded in reality to be bPD she has some major fleas > > > > > > I got a rather weird e-mail from her yesterday. it made me upset and so I deleted it, and it is gone now. so, i can sum it up. > > > > basically she told me that the conversation (I am not sure which conversation/or what I said) I had had with her made her feel belittled, and bullied. and that she " forgives me " but that our relationship will never be the same. and touted her bravery for telling me so. > > > > she went on the tell me that at church someone quoted from one of our church leaders sermons that was broadcast a couple months ago, about forgiveness (it was one of those really preachy ones. he basically said if you can't forgive just stop it.) and that she decided that she had forgiven me. > > > > then she concluded by telling me that she hopes forgiveness is contagious. > > > > > > uh..... > > > > is there a way to respond without groveling? I guess I am sorry to have hurt her feelings, but actually other than the one rude comment I was biting my tongue the whole time. > > > > I think this is more just her projecting her feelings about how I am giving nada the " silent treatment " as they are calling it. > > > > and honestly my relationship with her has always been very unhealthy. I tried hard to make it work off an on and I think she tried too, but she can't shake nada's teachings that I am not capable of real feelings. and she like nada still thinks I am a naughty 5 year old. she believes (and says) she is entitled to order me around because she is older (18 mos.) and I don't do things right. > > > > I am leaning toward not responding because this feels like a manipulation. the only nice response is to apologize, but there was no acknowledgment of even the possibility that she had anything to do with the situation. this just seemed so self-righteous and very unforgiving. but telling her so is not very nice. > > > > she is mad and won't talk to since my asking her to but out of nada and I's relationship. > > > > I think Nada is exercising her super human powers of denial with regards to me and pretending to the outside world that everything is fine. but this sister will probably tell tho world I am going to Hell soon. DH is relived. he has always hated the way she treats me, and is happy I see it now. he has been saying she is a jerk for years. and the sad part is that he never saw how bad she used to be. > > > > sometimes I feel like I am ripping my family apart, but I can't let them use me anymore. > > > > feeling very stuck. > > > > Meikjn > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 The concept or definition of what " forgiveness " is, is REALLY diverse. There are many views on the concept of forgiveness, and it comes up for discussion from time to time. However, discussing what constitutes " forgiveness " can easily devolve into arguments that are non-productive, though, because the concept of forgiveness IS so tied into religious beliefs. So discussions about " forgiveness " can drift into arguments about religion. Just a head's up, to keep in mind: this particular Group has members from many different religious affiliations. Its one thing to speak of how one's own religion has been helpful to you in healing you from the damage done by bpd parents, but its another thing to be dismissive or disrespectful toward other people's religious beliefs. -Annie > > I am confused. I thought a person had to ask for forgiveness in order to receive it from someone else. How can forgiveness be extended if you didn't ask for it?? Personally I don't think you need to ask for it. What kind of church is she going to?? I have never heard any sermon like that in all my years as a Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 " Forgiveness " is one of those words that has multiple meanings. The kind of forgiveness that you have to ask for is just one of them. That kind involves the person needing forgiveness admitting to having done wrong and regretting it and the person giving the forgiveness accepting the apology. Another kind of forgiveness has to do with one person deciding not to hold something against another. You can forgive someone else, without being asked and without telling anyone, for your own peace of mind. What Meikjn describes from her sister is neither of those. It seems to me to be an attempt at making Meikjn feel guilty when she did nothing wrong. At 09:08 AM 08/21/2012 tomandfran1605 wrote: >I am confused. I thought a person had to ask for forgiveness >in order to receive it from someone else. How can forgiveness >be extended if you didn't ask for it?? Personally I don't think >you need to ask for it. What kind of church is she going >to?? I have never heard any sermon like that in all my years >as a Christian. -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Yeah, I have a real problem with these two types of " forgiveness " being conflated, and I wish it didn't happen. There are three different things being talked about here, I think. I'm going to think out loud about this here for a couple of minutes because I've wrestled with it myself and I'd love some input. I see two different things going on when people talk about forgiveness. One of those things has a subset. I call the first thing " Classic/Saintly Forgiveness " The essence of " Classic forgiveness " is the willingness of the wronged person (the forgiver) to make themselves vulnerable to further hurt by the wrongdoer. In healthy situations, this comes about because the wrongdoer has acknowledged the wrong, apologized, made such amends as were feasible and wanted, and then asked to receive forgiveness, with the decision to give or not give forgiveness entirely in the lap of the wronged individual. Basically, someone has violated our trust, and that person is requesting the opportunity to be trusted again based on the idea that wrongdoer is sorry, has tried to make up for it, and is sincerely promising to do his or her very, very best not to repeat the harm. It's saying, " I know I hurt you, and I know that by seeking your forgiveness I am asking that you trust that I am genuinely sorry, that I have every intention not to repeat the harmful act, and that I am asking you to make yourself vulnerable to me despite the fact that I have shown myself capable of grievous error. I swear I will not abuse that trust. " In an ideal situation, the wrongdoer is sincere, and the wronged is capable of and willing to forgive, and the relationship (whatever it was) can be resumed, bruised but not broken. That's " Classic forgiveness. " Next up is " Saintly forgiveness " , which is what many religions admonish but which is very difficult -- and often dangerous, unhealthy, or unwise for non-saints to undertake. This is when the wrongdoer has failed the above program in some way -- hasn't acknowledge the wrong, hasn't apologized, hasn't made amends, hasn't sworn sincerely to do better, or has done the program and is now DEMANDING forgiveness as " payment " rather than simply requesting it with humble hope. In this case, if the wronged is a Saint, they can decide to forgive and open themselves up to being hurt by that same person again in exactly the same way, despite the fact that the person is almost certainly going to do it. And finally we have " Detachment/Forgiveness " which is what a lot of recovery programs tend to try to promote (the good ones anyway.) In this type of forgiveness, you are NOT OPENING YOURSELF UP TO FURTHER HARM. This is the key difference. There is NO restoration of trust. You are not permitting yourself to be abused by someone just on the grounds that they think they are entitled to another chance when you are certain that they will fail to refrain from harming you again, for any of a variety of reasons. When recovery folks talk about this kind of " forgiveness " (which I MUCH prefer to label " Detachment " ), what they mean is that you release the control of the abuser or the wrongdoer over your life. You quietly let go and walk away. You don't forget what happened, but you don't fixate on it and plan (or implement!) elaborate revenge schemes either. You just, as calmly as you can manage, say, " Goodbye. I'm sorry, but I can't ever trust you again. I don't wish you any ill, and I'm not going to try to ruin your life, but this is over, and I'm moving on. " So I see: Classic forgiveness: Wrongdoer asks, and wronged party grants, forgiveness. Trust is re-established (perhaps conditionally but there nevertheless.) Saintly forgiveness: Wronged party grants forgiveness without being asked. Trust is re-established even though unasked and unearned. [There are the " trust again " options for forgiveness.] Detachment: Wrongdoer may or may not seek to re-establish trust, but wronged party walks away. Trust is not re-established but neither is revenge taken for the wrong. [This is the " refuse trust " option, which is why I like to call it " detachment " instead.] I'm in favor of #3 in almost all cases (letting go and forgoing revenge for your own sanity's sake), in favor of #1 where the apology and intent to change is seen as sincere, and almost never in favor of #2 unless one is truly interested in cultivating sainthood. (I'm not being sarcastic there; there are people who choose to live their lives on this principle and I think it's admirable, but I suspect it's not possible -- or healthy -- for ordinary folks like me.) As for Meikjn's sister, it sounds like she's trying to play the " I'm a Saint! " card by: a) Fabricating a " wrong " that really wasn't one, and then Instead of requesting an apology, simply jumping over that step and saying " I'm going to be REALLY BIG HEARTED and forgive you!...And that means you have to forgive whoever I want you to, because I granted you this Saintly favor so now you are obligated to pass it on to the target of my choosing! " Needless to say I don't know of any decent religious organization that would suggest that you should go and manufacture a grievance against a person, engage in an ostentatious display of " forgiveness " for their " crime " , and then tell them that they had a duty to replicate this " generosity of spirit " at their command or some such.... -- Jen H. > ** > > > " Forgiveness " is one of those words that has multiple meanings. > The kind of forgiveness that you have to ask for is just one of > them. That kind involves the person needing forgiveness > admitting to having done wrong and regretting it and the person > giving the forgiveness accepting the apology. Another kind of > forgiveness has to do with one person deciding not to hold > something against another. You can forgive someone else, without > being asked and without telling anyone, for your own peace of > mind. What Meikjn describes from her sister is neither of > those. It seems to me to be an attempt at making Meikjn feel > guilty when she did nothing wrong. > > > At 09:08 AM 08/21/2012 tomandfran1605 wrote: > >I am confused. I thought a person had to ask for forgiveness > >in order to receive it from someone else. How can forgiveness > >be extended if you didn't ask for it?? Personally I don't think > >you need to ask for it. What kind of church is she going > >to?? I have never heard any sermon like that in all my years > >as a Christian. > > -- > Katrina > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Jen- this is what I think too. I think this confusion is a real flaw in our world. I was taught the " saintly forgiveness " by my Nada. it was rammed down my throat actually. she used to justify bullies. " you are so unforgiving, people would not treat you like that if you forgave them. " etc... I also think there is a serious blaming the victim problem all throughout society. my church does not teach it that way, but to Nada and her black and white thinking, it makes sense, and is pretty convenient for her. once when I was in college I had a roommate and her brother make life hard for me. feeling obligated to trust fully in them I complained that it was hard. my Dad told me that if a rabid dog bites, you don't have to be bitten again to forgive. strange that I am using his own advice to distance myself from him. thank you Jen for shedding some light on a murky topic. Meikjn > > >I am confused. I thought a person had to ask for forgiveness > > >in order to receive it from someone else. How can forgiveness > > >be extended if you didn't ask for it?? Personally I don't think > > >you need to ask for it. What kind of church is she going > > >to?? I have never heard any sermon like that in all my years > > >as a Christian. > > > > -- > > Katrina > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Hi Meikjn -- Glad you found it useful. I have a similar Nada who expects me to be Saintly, in that she might make a half-hearted apology for her bad behavior, but she has never been willing to actually change how she treats me. She wants me to forgive her while she continues to dish out the same old nasty garbage again..and again...and again. Apparently I'm supposed to be an unending well of forgiveness for her or something, no matter the damage it does to my life. So I'm working really hard on Detachment -- letting go without anger. It's not easy, because I would actually be open to Classic Forgiveness *if* she would admit responsibility, vow to change, and then, actually, you know....DO BETTER. As in, not be vicious. But I'm not gonna get that, because the personality disordered have a terrible time changing, for any reason. -- Jen H. > ** > > > Jen- > this is what I think too. I think this confusion is a real flaw in our > world. I was taught the " saintly forgiveness " by my Nada. it was rammed > down my throat actually. she used to justify bullies. " you are so > unforgiving, people would not treat you like that if you forgave them. " > etc... > > I also think there is a serious blaming the victim problem all throughout > society. > > my church does not teach it that way, but to Nada and her black and white > thinking, it makes sense, and is pretty convenient for her. > > once when I was in college I had a roommate and her brother make life hard > for me. feeling obligated to trust fully in them I complained that it was > hard. my Dad told me that if a rabid dog bites, you don't have to be bitten > again to forgive. strange that I am using his own advice to distance myself > from him. > > thank you Jen for shedding some light on a murky topic. > > Meikjn > > > > > > >I am confused. I thought a person had to ask for forgiveness > > > >in order to receive it from someone else. How can forgiveness > > > >be extended if you didn't ask for it?? Personally I don't think > > > >you need to ask for it. What kind of church is she going > > > >to?? I have never heard any sermon like that in all my years > > > >as a Christian. > > > > > > -- > > > Katrina > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Jen, I really like your breakdown of the different types of " forgiveness " RE the trust aspect of it and the self-protective aspect. I too prefer the term " detachment " for the third type: saying to yourself, basically, " I'm done. " You don't hate the individual, you don't wish them ill, but you have simply reached a point of indifference toward them, and you let them go and go your own way without them. -Annie > > Yeah, I have a real problem with these two types of " forgiveness " being > conflated, and I wish it didn't happen. There are three different things > being talked about here, I think. I'm going to think out loud about this > here for a couple of minutes because I've wrestled with it myself and I'd > love some input. > > I see two different things going on when people talk about forgiveness. One > of those things has a subset. I call the first thing " Classic/Saintly > Forgiveness " > > The essence of " Classic forgiveness " is the willingness of the wronged > person (the forgiver) to make themselves vulnerable to further hurt by the > wrongdoer. In healthy situations, this comes about because the wrongdoer > has acknowledged the wrong, apologized, made such amends as were feasible > and wanted, and then asked to receive forgiveness, with the decision to > give or not give forgiveness entirely in the lap of the wronged individual. > Basically, someone has violated our trust, and that person is requesting > the opportunity to be trusted again based on the idea that wrongdoer is > sorry, has tried to make up for it, and is sincerely promising to do his or > her very, very best not to repeat the harm. It's saying, " I know I hurt > you, and I know that by seeking your forgiveness I am asking that you trust > that I am genuinely sorry, that I have every intention not to repeat the > harmful act, and that I am asking you to make yourself vulnerable to me > despite the fact that I have shown myself capable of grievous error. I > swear I will not abuse that trust. " > > In an ideal situation, the wrongdoer is sincere, and the wronged is capable > of and willing to forgive, and the relationship (whatever it was) can be > resumed, bruised but not broken. That's " Classic forgiveness. " > > Next up is " Saintly forgiveness " , which is what many religions admonish but > which is very difficult -- and often dangerous, unhealthy, or unwise for > non-saints to undertake. This is when the wrongdoer has failed the above > program in some way -- hasn't acknowledge the wrong, hasn't apologized, > hasn't made amends, hasn't sworn sincerely to do better, or has done the > program and is now DEMANDING forgiveness as " payment " rather than simply > requesting it with humble hope. In this case, if the wronged is a > Saint, they can decide to forgive and open themselves up to being hurt by > that same person again in exactly the same way, despite the fact that the > person is almost certainly going to do it. > > And finally we have " Detachment/Forgiveness " which is what a lot of > recovery programs tend to try to promote (the good ones anyway.) In this > type of forgiveness, you are NOT OPENING YOURSELF UP TO FURTHER HARM. This > is the key difference. There is NO restoration of trust. You are not > permitting yourself to be abused by someone just on the grounds that they > think they are entitled to another chance when you are certain that they > will fail to refrain from harming you again, for any of a variety of > reasons. When recovery folks talk about this kind of " forgiveness " (which > I MUCH prefer to label " Detachment " ), what they mean is that you release > the control of the abuser or the wrongdoer over your life. You quietly let > go and walk away. You don't forget what happened, but you don't fixate on > it and plan (or implement!) elaborate revenge schemes either. You just, as > calmly as you can manage, say, " Goodbye. I'm sorry, but I can't ever trust > you again. I don't wish you any ill, and I'm not going to try to ruin your > life, but this is over, and I'm moving on. " > > So I see: > > Classic forgiveness: Wrongdoer asks, and wronged party grants, > forgiveness. Trust is re-established (perhaps conditionally but there > nevertheless.) > Saintly forgiveness: Wronged party grants forgiveness without being asked. > Trust is re-established even though unasked and unearned. > > [There are the " trust again " options for forgiveness.] > > Detachment: Wrongdoer may or may not seek to re-establish trust, but > wronged party walks away. Trust is not re-established but neither is > revenge taken for the wrong. > > [This is the " refuse trust " option, which is why I like to call it > " detachment " instead.] > > I'm in favor of #3 in almost all cases (letting go and forgoing revenge for > your own sanity's sake), in favor of #1 where the apology and intent to > change is seen as sincere, and almost never in favor of #2 unless one is > truly interested in cultivating sainthood. (I'm not being sarcastic there; > there are people who choose to live their lives on this principle and I > think it's admirable, but I suspect it's not possible -- or healthy -- for > ordinary folks like me.) > > As for Meikjn's sister, it sounds like she's trying to play the " I'm a > Saint! " card by: > > a) Fabricating a " wrong " that really wasn't one, and then > Instead of requesting an apology, simply jumping over that step and > saying " I'm going to be REALLY BIG HEARTED and forgive you!...And that > means you have to forgive whoever I want you to, because I granted you this > Saintly favor so now you are obligated to pass it on to the target of my > choosing! " > > Needless to say I don't know of any decent religious organization that > would suggest that you should go and manufacture a grievance against a > person, engage in an ostentatious display of " forgiveness " for their > " crime " , and then tell them that they had a duty to replicate this > " generosity of spirit " at their command or some such.... > > -- Jen H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Great discussion on forgiveness. I don't equate forgiveness with empowering. I can forgive someone but I don't have to empower them to keep harming me, or others. Forgiveness doesn't require me to keep putting my hand in the fire!! Forgiveness, to me, doesn't mean I take away the consequences for someone's actions. I can let God deal out the punishment, which He is better at than I am. He knows the person's heart while I don't really know what goes on inside of that person. I can judge behaviors, words or actions but I really don't know the heart of that person, or where they are coming from deep down inside. Only God has all those details. I really believe that in the end we all will answer to God for what we have done or not done on this earth. > > > >I am confused. I thought a person had to ask for forgiveness > > > >in order to receive it from someone else. How can forgiveness > > > >be extended if you didn't ask for it?? Personally I don't think > > > >you need to ask for it. What kind of church is she going > > > >to?? I have never heard any sermon like that in all my years > > > >as a Christian. > > > > > > -- > > > Katrina > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2012 Report Share Posted August 22, 2012 Hi, That's a tough situation to be in. From my experience it's better to respond to the email then not at all so your sister will not feel ignored. But you do not have to give into her. I would suggest calling so you can get everything out rather than emailing back and forth. Play it cool, apologize you hurt her feelings but you don't understand why, maybe she can explain it. This of course is if you still want a relationship with her. Also, In my opinion her email was completely unprecedented and it seemed like she was attacking you. You have every right to be upset with her. But seeing that you're the healthier of the two then you're probably the one who'll have to act first. I just know that when I've ignored my Nada after sending me mean texts or mean emails it gets worse. Nada will then not talk about the issue at hand but how I ignored her. In my head it's normal to ignore someone who's attacking you to her it's not and it just makes thinks worse. Good Luck! > > a couple months ago I talked to my sister on the phone. she pressured me to have our nada fly out and watch my kids while I was going out of town, and guilt tripped me about DH and I possibly moving even further from the family " how will my kids know your kids? " most of the family lives pretty close to each other, and so the belief is that we have to visit them, they will not visit us. > > My perfect handsome golden brother also recently went to an interview right by where we were thinking of moving. > > and so the next time I talked to her I made an idle comment that It would be really interesting if he were to move there too, because then people in the family who had been giving us crap would not be able to say anything about it. to which she replied " who is giving you crap? " I was a good girl and just said. uhhh never mind, and moved on. > > I did send her an e-mail asking her to not interfere with nada and I. > > this sister is the bossiest, and most sarcastic person I have ever met. and although she seems too grounded in reality to be bPD she has some major fleas > > > I got a rather weird e-mail from her yesterday. it made me upset and so I deleted it, and it is gone now. so, i can sum it up. > > basically she told me that the conversation (I am not sure which conversation/or what I said) I had had with her made her feel belittled, and bullied. and that she " forgives me " but that our relationship will never be the same. and touted her bravery for telling me so. > > she went on the tell me that at church someone quoted from one of our church leaders sermons that was broadcast a couple months ago, about forgiveness (it was one of those really preachy ones. he basically said if you can't forgive just stop it.) and that she decided that she had forgiven me. > > then she concluded by telling me that she hopes forgiveness is contagious. > > > uh..... > > is there a way to respond without groveling? I guess I am sorry to have hurt her feelings, but actually other than the one rude comment I was biting my tongue the whole time. > > I think this is more just her projecting her feelings about how I am giving nada the " silent treatment " as they are calling it. > > and honestly my relationship with her has always been very unhealthy. I tried hard to make it work off an on and I think she tried too, but she can't shake nada's teachings that I am not capable of real feelings. and she like nada still thinks I am a naughty 5 year old. she believes (and says) she is entitled to order me around because she is older (18 mos.) and I don't do things right. > > I am leaning toward not responding because this feels like a manipulation. the only nice response is to apologize, but there was no acknowledgment of even the possibility that she had anything to do with the situation. this just seemed so self-righteous and very unforgiving. but telling her so is not very nice. > > she is mad and won't talk to since my asking her to but out of nada and I's relationship. > > I think Nada is exercising her super human powers of denial with regards to me and pretending to the outside world that everything is fine. but this sister will probably tell tho world I am going to Hell soon. DH is relived. he has always hated the way she treats me, and is happy I see it now. he has been saying she is a jerk for years. and the sad part is that he never saw how bad she used to be. > > sometimes I feel like I am ripping my family apart, but I can't let them use me anymore. > > feeling very stuck. > > Meikjn > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 > > That's a tough situation to be in. > > From my experience it's better to respond to the email then not at all so > your sister will not feel ignored. But you do not have to give into her. I > would suggest calling so you can get everything out rather than emailing > back and forth. Play it cool, apologize you hurt her feelings but you don't > understand why, maybe she can explain it. > I read a good (and quite short, so it's a quick read) book on this called: BIFF: Quick Responses to High Conflict People, Their Hostile Emails, Personal Attacks and Social Media Meltdowns [Paperback] Bill Eddy I don't have any idea, Meikjn, if your sister is always a high-conflict personality or not (sounds like she might be), but I've found that when dealing with hostile people behaving irrationally, this approach works very well whether it's their usual communication style or just a really bad day for them. BIFF stands for: *BRIEF*: Keep it as short as you can (keeping the other three guidelines in mind) *INFORMATIVE*: If there was a request for any actual information in the hostile communication, and you can provide it, do so. (Or if there was an implied request for info, or if you think there is info you can impart that might deflect the hostility, do so. Remember you want to be BRIEF! Do not provide three pages of justification of your position and call it 'being informative'!) *FRIENDLY*: Keep as neutral and pleasant a tone as you can. This does NOT mean cowering, cringing, or apologizing! It just means not to bounce the hostility back no matter how badly you want to. *FIRM*: Make your stand after you have stated your position and don't budge from it. The book also tells you the " three As " to avoid, which are: *ADVICE*: Don't say things like " I really think you need to adjust your attitude. " *ADMONISHMENTS*: Otherwise known as scolding. Don't say " You have no business talking to me like that! " even if this is entirely true. *APOLOGIES*: Don't apologize unless you actually did something genuinely wrong. A person looking for a fight will seize on any suggestion of an apology as a sign that you are, in fact, at fault and that they can continue to attack you. (If you do need to apologize, make it quick, sincere, and to the point, and then get out as fast as you can.) Then Eddy goes and gives examples of situations of dealing with examples of hostile communications and how to try to phrase your response. There's a short post by him on the topic at http://www.billeddy.com/articles/hostile_email.htm dealing specifically with emails. Eddy also points out that while ignoring the emails is often the best move, sometimes you don't want to do that due to the principle lawyers refer to as Qui Tacet Consentit -- " Silence implies consent. " Basically, that says if you don't speak up and object, the hostile person might decide that you've tacitly agreed with their point. Hope some of that is useful. Best, Jen H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Thanks for sharing the info on that book, Jen, " BIFF: Quick Responses to High Conflict People... " It sounds like a must-read item for those of us with personality-disordered parents, relatives, and bosses/co-workers! -Annie > > > > That's a tough situation to be in. > > > > From my experience it's better to respond to the email then not at all so > > your sister will not feel ignored. But you do not have to give into her. I > > would suggest calling so you can get everything out rather than emailing > > back and forth. Play it cool, apologize you hurt her feelings but you don't > > understand why, maybe she can explain it. > > > > I read a good (and quite short, so it's a quick read) book on this called: > > BIFF: Quick Responses to High Conflict People, Their Hostile Emails, > Personal Attacks and Social Media Meltdowns [Paperback] > Bill Eddy > > I don't have any idea, Meikjn, if your sister is always a high-conflict > personality or not (sounds like she might be), but I've found that when > dealing with hostile people behaving irrationally, this approach works very > well whether it's their usual communication style or just a really bad day > for them. > > BIFF stands for: > > *BRIEF*: Keep it as short as you can (keeping the other three guidelines > in mind) > > *INFORMATIVE*: If there was a request for any actual information in the > hostile communication, and you can provide it, do so. (Or if there was an > implied request for info, or if you think there is info you can impart that > might deflect the hostility, do so. Remember you want to be BRIEF! Do not > provide three pages of justification of your position and call it 'being > informative'!) > > *FRIENDLY*: Keep as neutral and pleasant a tone as you can. This does NOT > mean cowering, cringing, or apologizing! It just means not to bounce the > hostility back no matter how badly you want to. > > *FIRM*: Make your stand after you have stated your position and don't > budge from it. > > The book also tells you the " three As " to avoid, which are: > > *ADVICE*: Don't say things like " I really think you need to adjust your > attitude. " > > *ADMONISHMENTS*: Otherwise known as scolding. Don't say " You have no > business talking to me like that! " even if this is entirely true. > > *APOLOGIES*: Don't apologize unless you actually did something genuinely > wrong. A person looking for a fight will seize on any suggestion of an > apology as a sign that you are, in fact, at fault and that they can > continue to attack you. (If you do need to apologize, make it quick, > sincere, and to the point, and then get out as fast as you can.) > > Then Eddy goes and gives examples of situations of dealing with examples of > hostile communications and how to try to phrase your response. > > There's a short post by him on the topic at > http://www.billeddy.com/articles/hostile_email.htm dealing specifically > with emails. > > Eddy also points out that while ignoring the emails is often the best move, > sometimes you don't want to do that due to the principle lawyers refer to > as Qui Tacet Consentit -- " Silence implies consent. " Basically, that says > if you don't speak up and object, the hostile person might decide that > you've tacitly agreed with their point. > > Hope some of that is useful. > > Best, > Jen H. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Hi Everyone, I agree.  I have such difficulty in the workplace b/c I always wind up working for high-functioning BPD bosses who are nadas.  I find it impossible to deal with people like this in the workplace b/c they always are in positions of power! - (aka Lula) ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 9:41 AM Subject: Re: " I forgive you "  Thanks for sharing the info on that book, Jen, " BIFF: Quick Responses to High Conflict People... " It sounds like a must-read item for those of us with personality-disordered parents, relatives, and bosses/co-workers! -Annie > > > > That's a tough situation to be in. > > > > From my experience it's better to respond to the email then not at all so > > your sister will not feel ignored. But you do not have to give into her. I > > would suggest calling so you can get everything out rather than emailing > > back and forth. Play it cool, apologize you hurt her feelings but you don't > > understand why, maybe she can explain it. > > > > I read a good (and quite short, so it's a quick read) book on this called: > > BIFF: Quick Responses to High Conflict People, Their Hostile Emails, > Personal Attacks and Social Media Meltdowns [Paperback] > Bill Eddy > > I don't have any idea, Meikjn, if your sister is always a high-conflict > personality or not (sounds like she might be), but I've found that when > dealing with hostile people behaving irrationally, this approach works very > well whether it's their usual communication style or just a really bad day > for them. > > BIFF stands for: > > *BRIEF*: Keep it as short as you can (keeping the other three guidelines > in mind) > > *INFORMATIVE*: If there was a request for any actual information in the > hostile communication, and you can provide it, do so. (Or if there was an > implied request for info, or if you think there is info you can impart that > might deflect the hostility, do so. Remember you want to be BRIEF! Do not > provide three pages of justification of your position and call it 'being > informative'!) > > *FRIENDLY*: Keep as neutral and pleasant a tone as you can. This does NOT > mean cowering, cringing, or apologizing! It just means not to bounce the > hostility back no matter how badly you want to. > > *FIRM*: Make your stand after you have stated your position and don't > budge from it. > > The book also tells you the " three As " to avoid, which are: > > *ADVICE*: Don't say things like " I really think you need to adjust your > attitude. " > > *ADMONISHMENTS*: Otherwise known as scolding. Don't say " You have no > business talking to me like that! " even if this is entirely true. > > *APOLOGIES*: Don't apologize unless you actually did something genuinely > wrong. A person looking for a fight will seize on any suggestion of an > apology as a sign that you are, in fact, at fault and that they can > continue to attack you. (If you do need to apologize, make it quick, > sincere, and to the point, and then get out as fast as you can.) > > Then Eddy goes and gives examples of situations of dealing with examples of > hostile communications and how to try to phrase your response. > > There's a short post by him on the topic at > http://www.billeddy.com/articles/hostile_email.htm dealing specifically > with emails. > > Eddy also points out that while ignoring the emails is often the best move, > sometimes you don't want to do that due to the principle lawyers refer to > as Qui Tacet Consentit -- " Silence implies consent. " Basically, that says > if you don't speak up and object, the hostile person might decide that > you've tacitly agreed with their point. > > Hope some of that is useful. > > Best, > Jen H. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 thank you all for your thoughtful, and kind replies. I decided to respond, mostly because she did accuse me of some things. like not reading peoples messages to me,(Nada's delusion which I found out this week from her.) and I wanted to set the record straight. here is what I said. I think it was close enough. I have no idea how she was feeling when she wrote the original e-mail, but it was rather Hostile. I hope this diffuses things a bit. I decided to respond because I feel like I needed to clear the air, and hopefully this will benefit the relationship long term. sister- First of all I am not really sure witch conversation you are referring to, or what I said that would change our relationship. I probably said something, but I really am not sure what it was... I was a bit sarcastic when I said something about brother and us both moving to ..., and how it would be hard for people in the family to give us crap. Honestly, I was just frustrated because there are certain people who have been pretty rude to us about DH's career, choice to earn a PHD, and his plans to do a post doc, and I just found that small Irony interesting, and yes I was including you in it, and it was inappropriate. I think I tend to get rather sarcastic around you. Are you really upset by my request for you to not involve yourself in my relationship with Mom? Our relationship is separate from all of that. I would explain my side of the story if I thought it would do any good. you can't understand what is going on with us, so please give me the benefit of the doubt, and trust that I am not doing this because I somehow have convinced myself that Mom doesn't love me, or anything like that. (This is Nada's latest theory) my issue is not a lack of forgiveness. I am working really hard on that. It is a lack of trust. And that is a very long story, which I have no idea where to begin to explain. I do read what people send me, so feel free to send me messages whenever you want. Meikjn > > > > > > That's a tough situation to be in. > > > > > > From my experience it's better to respond to the email then not at all so > > > your sister will not feel ignored. But you do not have to give into her. I > > > would suggest calling so you can get everything out rather than emailing > > > back and forth. Play it cool, apologize you hurt her feelings but you don't > > > understand why, maybe she can explain it. > > > > > > > I read a good (and quite short, so it's a quick read) book on this called: > > > > BIFF: Quick Responses to High Conflict People, Their Hostile Emails, > > Personal Attacks and Social Media Meltdowns [Paperback] > > Bill Eddy > > > > I don't have any idea, Meikjn, if your sister is always a high-conflict > > personality or not (sounds like she might be), but I've found that when > > dealing with hostile people behaving irrationally, this approach works very > > well whether it's their usual communication style or just a really bad day > > for them. > > > > BIFF stands for: > > > > *BRIEF*: Keep it as short as you can (keeping the other three guidelines > > in mind) > > > > *INFORMATIVE*: If there was a request for any actual information in the > > hostile communication, and you can provide it, do so. (Or if there was an > > implied request for info, or if you think there is info you can impart that > > might deflect the hostility, do so. Remember you want to be BRIEF! Do not > > provide three pages of justification of your position and call it 'being > > informative'!) > > > > *FRIENDLY*: Keep as neutral and pleasant a tone as you can. This does NOT > > mean cowering, cringing, or apologizing! It just means not to bounce the > > hostility back no matter how badly you want to. > > > > *FIRM*: Make your stand after you have stated your position and don't > > budge from it. > > > > The book also tells you the " three As " to avoid, which are: > > > > *ADVICE*: Don't say things like " I really think you need to adjust your > > attitude. " > > > > *ADMONISHMENTS*: Otherwise known as scolding. Don't say " You have no > > business talking to me like that! " even if this is entirely true. > > > > *APOLOGIES*: Don't apologize unless you actually did something genuinely > > wrong. A person looking for a fight will seize on any suggestion of an > > apology as a sign that you are, in fact, at fault and that they can > > continue to attack you. (If you do need to apologize, make it quick, > > sincere, and to the point, and then get out as fast as you can.) > > > > Then Eddy goes and gives examples of situations of dealing with examples of > > hostile communications and how to try to phrase your response. > > > > There's a short post by him on the topic at > > http://www.billeddy.com/articles/hostile_email.htm dealing specifically > > with emails. > > > > Eddy also points out that while ignoring the emails is often the best move, > > sometimes you don't want to do that due to the principle lawyers refer to > > as Qui Tacet Consentit -- " Silence implies consent. " Basically, that says > > if you don't speak up and object, the hostile person might decide that > > you've tacitly agreed with their point. > > > > Hope some of that is useful. > > > > Best, > > Jen H. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 HI all - Throwing in my perspective on this - I actually have had great luck by ignoring nasty emails. Responding to them is equal to engaging, which is a big no no with BPDs. When the emails start coming, which tend to happen after any kind of time spent with nada as she fixates on every minute detail of the days conversation, twisting and turning the intent and content to fit her distorted self fulfilling trainwreck of an existence, and starts emailing me that she was offended by what I said about this or that - (all which I never actually said)....Anyway - when those nasty emails come, which are usually accompanied by 20 phone calls leaving nasty messages on my voice mail) I have been told by my therapist as well as the brilliant voices on this site, to ignore ignore ignore. I don't answer the phone when I see her name on the caller ID either. I will email her and say something like " I'm sorry you are feeling sad, but I can't have these kinds of conversations with you. Let me know when you feel better, and I'd be glad to have a chat. I love you. " And that's it. Then don't respond till you get a normal, kind, non-confrontational email or voice mail. The forgiveness comes in play for me, knowing that she can't help the behavior. It is involuntary, and since at her advanced age there is no way out of it for her, I do genuinely feel sad for her. I can't imagine what it would be like inside her head. But I dont let her get inside me anymore to wreak havoc with my self esteem. That's not to say that I don't still hurt from this - I do. But I try to be aware of when those pangs come into my solarplexus, and realize that they are just thoughts...and let them go. I also meditate on trying to send her love, and wishing her peace of mind, which is so very illusive for her. Oddly enough, I am mom to 15 year old twin girls, who I also have to treat this way when they get nasty. But this behavior from a hormonal teenager is way more normal than a full grown adult. I do get to practice on them though Wishing you well! Lesley > Hi, > > That's a tough situation to be in. > > From my experience it's better to respond to the email then not at all so your sister will not feel ignored. But you do not have to give into her. I would suggest calling so you can get everything out rather than emailing back and forth. Play it cool, apologize you hurt her feelings but you don't understand why, maybe she can explain it. > > This of course is if you still want a relationship with her. Also, In my opinion her email was completely unprecedented and it seemed like she was attacking you. You have every right to be upset with her. But seeing that you're the healthier of the two then you're probably the one who'll have to act first. > > I just know that when I've ignored my Nada after sending me mean texts or mean emails it gets worse. Nada will then not talk about the issue at hand but how I ignored her. In my head it's normal to ignore someone who's attacking you to her it's not and it just makes thinks worse. > > Good Luck! > > > > > > a couple months ago I talked to my sister on the phone. she pressured me to have our nada fly out and watch my kids while I was going out of town, and guilt tripped me about DH and I possibly moving even further from the family " how will my kids know your kids? " most of the family lives pretty close to each other, and so the belief is that we have to visit them, they will not visit us. > > > > My perfect handsome golden brother also recently went to an interview right by where we were thinking of moving. > > > > and so the next time I talked to her I made an idle comment that It would be really interesting if he were to move there too, because then people in the family who had been giving us crap would not be able to say anything about it. to which she replied " who is giving you crap? " I was a good girl and just said. uhhh never mind, and moved on. > > > > I did send her an e-mail asking her to not interfere with nada and I. > > > > this sister is the bossiest, and most sarcastic person I have ever met. and although she seems too grounded in reality to be bPD she has some major fleas > > > > > > I got a rather weird e-mail from her yesterday. it made me upset and so I deleted it, and it is gone now. so, i can sum it up. > > > > basically she told me that the conversation (I am not sure which conversation/or what I said) I had had with her made her feel belittled, and bullied. and that she " forgives me " but that our relationship will never be the same. and touted her bravery for telling me so. > > > > she went on the tell me that at church someone quoted from one of our church leaders sermons that was broadcast a couple months ago, about forgiveness (it was one of those really preachy ones. he basically said if you can't forgive just stop it.) and that she decided that she had forgiven me. > > > > then she concluded by telling me that she hopes forgiveness is contagious. > > > > > > uh..... > > > > is there a way to respond without groveling? I guess I am sorry to have hurt her feelings, but actually other than the one rude comment I was biting my tongue the whole time. > > > > I think this is more just her projecting her feelings about how I am giving nada the " silent treatment " as they are calling it. > > > > and honestly my relationship with her has always been very unhealthy. I tried hard to make it work off an on and I think she tried too, but she can't shake nada's teachings that I am not capable of real feelings. and she like nada still thinks I am a naughty 5 year old. she believes (and says) she is entitled to order me around because she is older (18 mos.) and I don't do things right. > > > > I am leaning toward not responding because this feels like a manipulation. the only nice response is to apologize, but there was no acknowledgment of even the possibility that she had anything to do with the situation. this just seemed so self-righteous and very unforgiving. but telling her so is not very nice. > > > > she is mad and won't talk to since my asking her to but out of nada and I's relationship. > > > > I think Nada is exercising her super human powers of denial with regards to me and pretending to the outside world that everything is fine. but this sister will probably tell tho world I am going to Hell soon. DH is relived. he has always hated the way she treats me, and is happy I see it now. he has been saying she is a jerk for years. and the sad part is that he never saw how bad she used to be. > > > > sometimes I feel like I am ripping my family apart, but I can't let them use me anymore. > > > > feeling very stuck. > > > > Meikjn > > > > lesley anton handmade ceramic lighting lesley anton : utility lesleyanton.com studio cell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 so my sister replied again, and her reply is honestly making me question her sanity.this is what she said: Meikjn, you told me not to talk to you until you said it was ok. How would it make you feel if I just said " don't talk to me " . I know you have issues with mom and your actions are hurting mom a lot...I am part of both of your lives but when you say that I can't talk to you it hurts me. I like to stay in contact with those I love.... welcome to the guilt trip-o-rama! anyway, this is what I told NADA when she violated my boundary and called me a couple weeks ago! what I told my sister was the exact opposite. I think SWOE describes this as really deep enmeshment. basically to the point when a person has trouble distinguishing themselves from another. It is strange dealing with this sister. in one way it is harder because she can be VERY vicious, but at least it is easier to pick out the bad behavior. my nada is really sneaky. most of the time I just feel really uncomfortable, and can't figure it out until a while later. I think it would be interesting to see if I got different results if I really were being mean to Nada. I try very hard to be kind to them. even though they don't appreciate it it bears the luxury of knowing I am being what I want to be. I almost think Nada and her denial will get over all of this faster than my sister who I have done nothing to. I think she is just trying to punish me. she has always been that way. families are weird things. Meikjn > > > > > > a couple months ago I talked to my sister on the phone. she pressured me to have our nada fly out and watch my kids while I was going out of town, and guilt tripped me about DH and I possibly moving even further from the family " how will my kids know your kids? " most of the family lives pretty close to each other, and so the belief is that we have to visit them, they will not visit us. > > > > > > My perfect handsome golden brother also recently went to an interview right by where we were thinking of moving. > > > > > > and so the next time I talked to her I made an idle comment that It would be really interesting if he were to move there too, because then people in the family who had been giving us crap would not be able to say anything about it. to which she replied " who is giving you crap? " I was a good girl and just said. uhhh never mind, and moved on. > > > > > > I did send her an e-mail asking her to not interfere with nada and I. > > > > > > this sister is the bossiest, and most sarcastic person I have ever met. and although she seems too grounded in reality to be bPD she has some major fleas > > > > > > > > > I got a rather weird e-mail from her yesterday. it made me upset and so I deleted it, and it is gone now. so, i can sum it up. > > > > > > basically she told me that the conversation (I am not sure which conversation/or what I said) I had had with her made her feel belittled, and bullied. and that she " forgives me " but that our relationship will never be the same. and touted her bravery for telling me so. > > > > > > she went on the tell me that at church someone quoted from one of our church leaders sermons that was broadcast a couple months ago, about forgiveness (it was one of those really preachy ones. he basically said if you can't forgive just stop it.) and that she decided that she had forgiven me. > > > > > > then she concluded by telling me that she hopes forgiveness is contagious. > > > > > > > > > uh..... > > > > > > is there a way to respond without groveling? I guess I am sorry to have hurt her feelings, but actually other than the one rude comment I was biting my tongue the whole time. > > > > > > I think this is more just her projecting her feelings about how I am giving nada the " silent treatment " as they are calling it. > > > > > > and honestly my relationship with her has always been very unhealthy. I tried hard to make it work off an on and I think she tried too, but she can't shake nada's teachings that I am not capable of real feelings. and she like nada still thinks I am a naughty 5 year old. she believes (and says) she is entitled to order me around because she is older (18 mos.) and I don't do things right. > > > > > > I am leaning toward not responding because this feels like a manipulation. the only nice response is to apologize, but there was no acknowledgment of even the possibility that she had anything to do with the situation. this just seemed so self-righteous and very unforgiving. but telling her so is not very nice. > > > > > > she is mad and won't talk to since my asking her to but out of nada and I's relationship. > > > > > > I think Nada is exercising her super human powers of denial with regards to me and pretending to the outside world that everything is fine. but this sister will probably tell tho world I am going to Hell soon. DH is relived. he has always hated the way she treats me, and is happy I see it now. he has been saying she is a jerk for years. and the sad part is that he never saw how bad she used to be. > > > > > > sometimes I feel like I am ripping my family apart, but I can't let them use me anymore. > > > > > > feeling very stuck. > > > > > > Meikjn > > > > > > > > > lesley anton handmade ceramic lighting > lesley anton : utility > > lesleyanton.com > studio > cell > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 I agree with you, families can be very weird things. I truly, genuinely do NOT understand why personality disorder in general and bpd in particular are not considered to be MUCH more serious conditions than they are, since bpd involves cognitive distortion, delusional thinking, paranoia, a tendency to trigger into explosive rages or hysteria that can manifest as things like domestic violence, reckless driving, suicide attempts, etc., and other behaviors that indicate that the individual *isn't really very connected to the same reality that most of us are*. The only answer that occurs to me is that I suppose that as long as an individual is high-functioning enough to hold down a job, pay their taxes, not burn their house down or commit vehicular manslaughter, they're considered to be somewhere in the " normal " range, and never mind if they're systematically destroying their childen's psyches at home where no outside witnesses can observe it. -Annie > > so my sister replied again, and her reply is honestly making me question her sanity.this is what she said: > > Meikjn, you told me not to talk to you until you said it was ok. How would it make you feel if I just said " don't talk to me " . > I know you have issues with mom and your actions are hurting mom a lot...I am part of both of your lives but when you say that I can't talk to you it hurts me. I like to stay in contact with those I love.... > > > welcome to the guilt trip-o-rama! > > anyway, this is what I told NADA when she violated my boundary and called me a couple weeks ago! what I told my sister was the exact opposite. > > I think SWOE describes this as really deep enmeshment. basically to the point when a person has trouble distinguishing themselves from another. > > It is strange dealing with this sister. in one way it is harder because she can be VERY vicious, but at least it is easier to pick out the bad behavior. my nada is really sneaky. most of the time I just feel really uncomfortable, and can't figure it out until a while later. > > I think it would be interesting to see if I got different results if I really were being mean to Nada. > > I try very hard to be kind to them. even though they don't appreciate it it bears the luxury of knowing I am being what I want to be. I almost think Nada and her denial will get over all of this faster than my sister who I have done nothing to. I think she is just trying to punish me. she has always been that way. > > > families are weird things. > > Meikjn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Meikjn, I'm sorry that your sister's response wasn't what you hoped for. It looks to me like it is going to be necessary to accept that she has issues that make her almost as toxic for you as your nada. Whether she is mentally ill herself of just drinking your nada's koolaid and acting as her flying monkey, it doesn't sound like what you are saying is what she is hearing. It also doesn't sound like she's being rational. You can't have a rational discussion with someone who is refusing or unable to think rationally. Trying to be kind to people is a nice ideal but sometimes it has the wrong effect. Sometimes acting in a way that you think is kind is actually enabling or even encouraging bad or destructive behavior. At 01:15 PM 08/25/2012 Meikjn wrote: >so my sister replied again, and her reply is honestly making me >question her sanity.this is what she said: > >Meikjn, you told me not to talk to you until you said it was >ok. How would it make you feel if I just said " don't talk to >me " . >I know you have issues with mom and your actions are hurting >mom a lot...I am part of both of your lives but when you say >that I can't talk to you it hurts me. I like to stay in >contact with those I love.... > > >welcome to the guilt trip-o-rama! > >anyway, this is what I told NADA when she violated my boundary >and called me a couple weeks ago! what I told my sister was the >exact opposite. > >I think SWOE describes this as really deep enmeshment. >basically to the point when a person has trouble distinguishing >themselves from another. > >It is strange dealing with this sister. in one way it is harder >because she can be VERY vicious, but at least it is easier to >pick out the bad behavior. my nada is really sneaky. most of >the time I just feel really uncomfortable, and can't figure it >out until a while later. > >I think it would be interesting to see if I got different >results if I really were being mean to Nada. > >I try very hard to be kind to them. even though they don't >appreciate it it bears the luxury of knowing I am being what I >want to be. I almost think Nada and her denial will get over >all of this faster than my sister who I have done nothing to. I >think she is just trying to punish me. she has always been that >way. > > >families are weird things. > >Meikjn -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 So true, Katrina, I think that we've been conditioned into being " kind " so that they don't go bonkers on us! -Laraine ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 12:42 PM Subject: Re: Re: " I forgive you "  Meikjn, I'm sorry that your sister's response wasn't what you hoped for. It looks to me like it is going to be necessary to accept that she has issues that make her almost as toxic for you as your nada. Whether she is mentally ill herself of just drinking your nada's koolaid and acting as her flying monkey, it doesn't sound like what you are saying is what she is hearing. It also doesn't sound like she's being rational. You can't have a rational discussion with someone who is refusing or unable to think rationally. Trying to be kind to people is a nice ideal but sometimes it has the wrong effect. Sometimes acting in a way that you think is kind is actually enabling or even encouraging bad or destructive behavior. At 01:15 PM 08/25/2012 Meikjn wrote: >so my sister replied again, and her reply is honestly making me >question her sanity.this is what she said: > >Meikjn, you told me not to talk to you until you said it was >ok. How would it make you feel if I just said " don't talk to >me " . >I know you have issues with mom and your actions are hurting >mom a lot...I am part of both of your lives but when you say >that I can't talk to you it hurts me. I like to stay in >contact with those I love.... > > >welcome to the guilt trip-o-rama! > >anyway, this is what I told NADA when she violated my boundary >and called me a couple weeks ago! what I told my sister was the >exact opposite. > >I think SWOE describes this as really deep enmeshment. >basically to the point when a person has trouble distinguishing >themselves from another. > >It is strange dealing with this sister. in one way it is harder >because she can be VERY vicious, but at least it is easier to >pick out the bad behavior. my nada is really sneaky. most of >the time I just feel really uncomfortable, and can't figure it >out until a while later. > >I think it would be interesting to see if I got different >results if I really were being mean to Nada. > >I try very hard to be kind to them. even though they don't >appreciate it it bears the luxury of knowing I am being what I >want to be. I almost think Nada and her denial will get over >all of this faster than my sister who I have done nothing to. I >think she is just trying to punish me. she has always been that >way. > > >families are weird things. > >Meikjn -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 The ironic thing is that being kind doesn't keep them from going bonkers. I could sit quiet in a chair and do/be the absolute perfect daughter, and she would find something to go off about. Very frustrating. Lesley > So true, Katrina, > I think that we've been conditioned into being " kind " so that they don't > go bonkers on us! > -Laraine > > ________________________________ > > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 12:42 PM > Subject: Re: Re: " I forgive you " > > > > Meikjn, > I'm sorry that your sister's response wasn't what you hoped for. > It looks to me like it is going to be necessary to accept that > she has issues that make her almost as toxic for you as your > nada. Whether she is mentally ill herself of just drinking your > nada's koolaid and acting as her flying monkey, it doesn't sound > like what you are saying is what she is hearing. It also doesn't > sound like she's being rational. You can't have a rational > discussion with someone who is refusing or unable to think > rationally. > > Trying to be kind to people is a nice ideal but sometimes it has > the wrong effect. Sometimes acting in a way that you think is > kind is actually enabling or even encouraging bad or destructive > behavior. > > At 01:15 PM 08/25/2012 Meikjn wrote: > >so my sister replied again, and her reply is honestly making me > >question her sanity.this is what she said: > > > >Meikjn, you told me not to talk to you until you said it was > >ok. How would it make you feel if I just said " don't talk to > >me " . > >I know you have issues with mom and your actions are hurting > >mom a lot...I am part of both of your lives but when you say > >that I can't talk to you it hurts me. I like to stay in > >contact with those I love.... > > > > > >welcome to the guilt trip-o-rama! > > > >anyway, this is what I told NADA when she violated my boundary > >and called me a couple weeks ago! what I told my sister was the > >exact opposite. > > > >I think SWOE describes this as really deep enmeshment. > >basically to the point when a person has trouble distinguishing > >themselves from another. > > > >It is strange dealing with this sister. in one way it is harder > >because she can be VERY vicious, but at least it is easier to > >pick out the bad behavior. my nada is really sneaky. most of > >the time I just feel really uncomfortable, and can't figure it > >out until a while later. > > > >I think it would be interesting to see if I got different > >results if I really were being mean to Nada. > > > >I try very hard to be kind to them. even though they don't > >appreciate it it bears the luxury of knowing I am being what I > >want to be. I almost think Nada and her denial will get over > >all of this faster than my sister who I have done nothing to. I > >think she is just trying to punish me. she has always been that > >way. > > > > > >families are weird things. > > > >Meikjn > > -- > Katrina > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Very true, Lesley! I find myself trying to be kind b/c nada is not doing too well. When I spoke to her on the phone to check up on her, she sounds " distant " in a nada-like way.  You know... " distant " as in soon-to-go bonkers.  -L ________________________________ To: " WTOAdultChildren1 " WTOAdultChildren1 > Cc: " WTOAdultChildren1 " WTOAdultChildren1 > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 12:56 PM Subject: Re: Re: " I forgive you "  The ironic thing is that being kind doesn't keep them from going bonkers. I could sit quiet in a chair and do/be the absolute perfect daughter, and she would find something to go off about. Very frustrating. Lesley > So true, Katrina, > I think that we've been conditioned into being " kind " so that they don't > go bonkers on us! > -Laraine > > ________________________________ > > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 12:42 PM > Subject: Re: Re: " I forgive you " > > > > Meikjn, > I'm sorry that your sister's response wasn't what you hoped for. > It looks to me like it is going to be necessary to accept that > she has issues that make her almost as toxic for you as your > nada. Whether she is mentally ill herself of just drinking your > nada's koolaid and acting as her flying monkey, it doesn't sound > like what you are saying is what she is hearing. It also doesn't > sound like she's being rational. You can't have a rational > discussion with someone who is refusing or unable to think > rationally. > > Trying to be kind to people is a nice ideal but sometimes it has > the wrong effect. Sometimes acting in a way that you think is > kind is actually enabling or even encouraging bad or destructive > behavior. > > At 01:15 PM 08/25/2012 Meikjn wrote: > >so my sister replied again, and her reply is honestly making me > >question her sanity.this is what she said: > > > >Meikjn, you told me not to talk to you until you said it was > >ok. How would it make you feel if I just said " don't talk to > >me " . > >I know you have issues with mom and your actions are hurting > >mom a lot...I am part of both of your lives but when you say > >that I can't talk to you it hurts me. I like to stay in > >contact with those I love.... > > > > > >welcome to the guilt trip-o-rama! > > > >anyway, this is what I told NADA when she violated my boundary > >and called me a couple weeks ago! what I told my sister was the > >exact opposite. > > > >I think SWOE describes this as really deep enmeshment. > >basically to the point when a person has trouble distinguishing > >themselves from another. > > > >It is strange dealing with this sister. in one way it is harder > >because she can be VERY vicious, but at least it is easier to > >pick out the bad behavior. my nada is really sneaky. most of > >the time I just feel really uncomfortable, and can't figure it > >out until a while later. > > > >I think it would be interesting to see if I got different > >results if I really were being mean to Nada. > > > >I try very hard to be kind to them. even though they don't > >appreciate it it bears the luxury of knowing I am being what I > >want to be. I almost think Nada and her denial will get over > >all of this faster than my sister who I have done nothing to. I > >think she is just trying to punish me. she has always been that > >way. > > > > > >families are weird things. > > > >Meikjn > > -- > Katrina > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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