How to re-connect after a blow up

[Guest guest]

I am new to this group, and have only recently discovered that my mother fits

most of the criteria for having BPD. I am both relieved to know that you are all

out there for support, and kind of horrified at the harm done to all of us from

being raised by BPD parents.  I've also been blown away by the caring and

helpful responses you've given to each other!

I live overseas and visit my parents once a year with my 2 kids. My mother is

always on edge during these visits and I feel like she is constantly finding

fault with everything I do and say. She's sometimes critical with my children,

too, but usually manages to contain herself where they're concerned.  She is an

eternal victim and ruminates incessantly on all the bad things that people have

ever said to her or done to her (from her perspective). She seems to refuse to

recognize or accept that many of us care very much about her, listen to her, try

to help her, etc. She is almost 80 now, and has many physical limitations along

with what must be the mental torture of having both BPD and chronic depression.

During our last visit, after what started out as a friendly conversation, she

made her typical comments about my not listening to her or caring about her and

I blew my top. I know now it was the absolute worst thing to do, but I yelled at

her that nothing was ever right for her, and that it was wrong for her to dish

out so much venom and take no responsibility for the climates she creates. She

was inconsolable and turned to my ever-enabling Dad for support. She has

basically convinced him that all of her children are selfish and rotten, and he

has flat out told me that he has chosen to take care of her, and that me and my

sisters are on our own. We're all in our 40s and more than capable of taking

care of ourselves, but he has never backed any of us up in the face of my Mom's

lifelong displeasure with us and accusations of us.

So my parents haven't talked to me in almost 2 weeks, and I have no idea what to

say to them. I've already apologized for my yelling, but I seem to have really

crossed a line by kicking my mother whe she was down (when isn't she?). While I

was home, after the blow-up, I had long talks with my Dad about BPD and he

seemed convinced that my Mom really did suffer from it.  When I couldn't " fix "

the situation with my Mom, though, he reverted back to taking her side and

blaming me for her current bout of misery.  He told me several times that my Mom

now considers me to be a pariah.  He never has any advice about what to do next,

nor does he do anything to reassure me that I'm a decent person who deserves a

little credit for how much she has cared and tried to help over the years.  My

Mom can be a very sweet and generous person, but as my sister says, she sure

does extract a heavy price from us for her generosity. 

 

I'm not able to tolerate long silences with my parents because they are elderly

and I do love them, but I just can't grovel for forgiveness. Any advice about

how to move forward would be much appreciated. Since I am overseas, I can only

be in phone or email contact with them. Thanks.

[Guest guest]

Beth,

I don't have any really good answer for you, but experience

tells me that if you just wait there is a good chance that

they'll get back in touch with your and act like nothing

happened. That's common behavior for people with BPD. You could

just send messages or call and act like nothing happened

yourself. You've apologized for yelling which is really all that

I think is called for. Groveling is not appropriate. If they

refuse to talk to you, there's nothing you can do to force them

to change their minds. If you make it clear that you are willing

to communicate with them then they can choose to do so when

they're ready.

Don't beat yourself up about " kicking her when she was down " .

You didn't do that. You were being kicked and you fought back

for a change. Telling someone the truth is not normally

considered kicking them when they're down. It would have been

better if you hadn't been driven to the point of yelling, but

that's the way it goes sometimes. The fact that she was

inconsolable afterward is her fault, not yours. You aren't

responsible for her feelings. You are allowed to have feelings

of your own. You aren't required to be the verbal equivalent of

a punching bag and just sit there listening to constant

criticisms.

At 06:07 AM 08/24/2012 Beth Marinucci wrote:

>I am new to this group, and have only recently discovered that

>my mother fits most of the criteria for having BPD. I am both

>relieved to know that you are all out there for support, and

>kind of horrified at the harm done to all of us from being

>raised by BPD parents. I've also been blown away by the caring

>and helpful responses you've given to each other!

>

>I live overseas and visit my parents once a year with my 2

>kids. My mother is always on edge during these visits and I

>feel like she is constantly finding fault with everything I do

>and say. She's sometimes critical with my children, too, but

>usually manages to contain herself where they're

>concerned. She is an eternal victim and ruminates incessantly

>on all the bad things that people have ever said to her or done

>to her (from her perspective). She seems to refuse to recognize

>or accept that many of us care very much about her, listen to

>her, try to help her, etc. She is almost 80 now, and has many

>physical limitations along with what must be the mental torture

>of having both BPD and chronic depression.

>

>During our last visit, after what started out as a friendly

>conversation, she made her typical comments about my not

>listening to her or caring about her and I blew my top. I know

>now it was the absolute worst thing to do, but I yelled at her

>that nothing was ever right for her, and that it was wrong for

>her to dish out so much venom and take no responsibility for

>the climates she creates. She was inconsolable and turned to my

>ever-enabling Dad for support. She has basically convinced him

>that all of her children are selfish and rotten, and he has

>flat out told me that he has chosen to take care of her, and

>that me and my sisters are on our own. We're all in our 40s and

>more than capable of taking care of ourselves, but he has never

>backed any of us up in the face of my Mom's lifelong

>displeasure with us and accusations of us.

>

>So my parents haven't talked to me in almost 2 weeks, and I

>have no idea what to say to them. I've already apologized for

>my yelling, but I seem to have really crossed a line by kicking

>my mother whe she was down (when isn't she?). While I was home,

>after the blow-up, I had long talks with my Dad about BPD and

>he seemed convinced that my Mom really did suffer from

>it. When I couldn't " fix " the situation with my Mom, though,

>he reverted back to taking her side and blaming me for her

>current bout of misery. He told me several times that my Mom

>now considers me to be a pariah. He never has any advice about

>what to do next, nor does he do anything to reassure me that

>I'm a decent person who deserves a little credit for how much

>she has cared and tried to help over the years. My Mom can be

>a very sweet and generous person, but as my sister says, she

>sure does extract a heavy price from us for her generosity.

>

>I'm not able to tolerate long silences with my parents because

>they are elderly and I do love them, but I just can't grovel

>for forgiveness. Any advice about how to move forward would be

>much appreciated. Since I am overseas, I can only be in phone

>or email contact with them. Thanks.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Hi Beth,

I agree with Katrina's take on this. You've apologized for yelling at your

mother; you owned it. It may take a while, but its very likely that eventually

your parents will decide that they want contact with you again. Remind yourself

to be patient and give them time.

Keep this in mind, though: when they do decide to resume contact with you,

please don't let any misplaced guilt you may be feeling, make you feel obligated

to allow your parents to continue to mistreat and emotionally abuse you as

" deserved punishment. "

You don't deserve punishment, you deserve to have personal boundaries and be

treated with basic courtesy and respect, just like any other human being. Just

because you stood up for yourself doesn't mean that you now are obligated to

return to being the equivalent of a human-shaped punching bag for verbal abuse.

Annie

>

> Beth,

> I don't have any really good answer for you, but experience

> tells me that if you just wait there is a good chance that

> they'll get back in touch with your and act like nothing

> happened. That's common behavior for people with BPD. You could

> just send messages or call and act like nothing happened

> yourself. You've apologized for yelling which is really all that

> I think is called for. Groveling is not appropriate. If they

> refuse to talk to you, there's nothing you can do to force them

> to change their minds. If you make it clear that you are willing

> to communicate with them then they can choose to do so when

> they're ready.

>

> Don't beat yourself up about " kicking her when she was down " .

> You didn't do that. You were being kicked and you fought back

> for a change. Telling someone the truth is not normally

> considered kicking them when they're down. It would have been

> better if you hadn't been driven to the point of yelling, but

> that's the way it goes sometimes. The fact that she was

> inconsolable afterward is her fault, not yours. You aren't

> responsible for her feelings. You are allowed to have feelings

> of your own. You aren't required to be the verbal equivalent of

> a punching bag and just sit there listening to constant

> criticisms.

[Guest guest]

I there! My two cents is for you just to call up and start talking about

whatever it is you want to talk about. Just move forward like it never happened.

Don't dwell on it and don't mull it over and don't let it hang over you. Or let

them hang it over you. Just move on! Isn't that what she'd do?

[Guest guest]

Hi Beth,

I've been there with my parents too. Usually after some time they've come

around. But the key is to not discuss it anymore, as you now see it only makes

matters worse. Just let things move forward from here.

It's tough to accept our BPD-mothers and enabling fathers won't change. I use to

try talking to my parents about their problems too. But I finally had to accept

they both have a disorder and I need to treat them both as emotionally broken

people who can never change.

Because it was the only way my family and myself could build real peace in my

life.

Hang in there.

Peaceful Warrior

>

> I am new to this group, and have only recently discovered that my mother fits

most of the criteria for having BPD. I am both relieved to know that you are all

out there for support, and kind of horrified at the harm done to all of us from

being raised by BPD parents.  I've also been blown away by the caring and

helpful responses you've given to each other!

>

> I live overseas and visit my parents once a year with my 2 kids. My mother is

always on edge during these visits and I feel like she is constantly finding

fault with everything I do and say. She's sometimes critical with my children,

too, but usually manages to contain herself where they're concerned.  She is an

eternal victim and ruminates incessantly on all the bad things that people have

ever said to her or done to her (from her perspective). She seems to refuse to

recognize or accept that many of us care very much about her, listen to her, try

to help her, etc. She is almost 80 now, and has many physical limitations along

with what must be the mental torture of having both BPD and chronic depression.

>

> During our last visit, after what started out as a friendly conversation, she

made her typical comments about my not listening to her or caring about her and

I blew my top. I know now it was the absolute worst thing to do, but I yelled at

her that nothing was ever right for her, and that it was wrong for her to dish

out so much venom and take no responsibility for the climates she creates. She

was inconsolable and turned to my ever-enabling Dad for support. She has

basically convinced him that all of her children are selfish and rotten, and he

has flat out told me that he has chosen to take care of her, and that me and my

sisters are on our own. We're all in our 40s and more than capable of taking

care of ourselves, but he has never backed any of us up in the face of my Mom's

lifelong displeasure with us and accusations of us.

>

> So my parents haven't talked to me in almost 2 weeks, and I have no idea what

to say to them. I've already apologized for my yelling, but I seem to have

really crossed a line by kicking my mother whe she was down (when isn't she?).

While I was home, after the blow-up, I had long talks with my Dad about BPD and

he seemed convinced that my Mom really did suffer from it.  When I couldn't

" fix " the situation with my Mom, though, he reverted back to taking her side and

blaming me for her current bout of misery.  He told me several times that my Mom

now considers me to be a pariah.  He never has any advice about what to do next,

nor does he do anything to reassure me that I'm a decent person who deserves a

little credit for how much she has cared and tried to help over the years.  My

Mom can be a very sweet and generous person, but as my sister says, she sure

does extract a heavy price from us for her generosity. 

>  

> I'm not able to tolerate long silences with my parents because they are

elderly and I do love them, but I just can't grovel for forgiveness. Any advice

about how to move forward would be much appreciated. Since I am overseas, I can

only be in phone or email contact with them. Thanks.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ah, the silent treatment. Passive-aggressive and maniluplative. Designed to make

you feel like the bad guy and come back begging for their attention, taking all

the blame upon yourself so they don't have to be responsible for anything.

If you have already apologized for losing your temper, then you have done the

right thing and that is all you need to do. It is not up to you to make your

parents stop sulking. If they would rather have themselves a pity party than a

conversation with their daughter, that is entirely up to them.

It is hard realizing there is nothing you can do to change their behavior. You

can't control whether they are happy or not, whether they like you or not,

whether they think you are deserving of love and attention or not. Your mother

was miserable long before you came along, and it's not fair for anyone to blame

you for that. She is capable of reaching out and getting help from people who

are actually qualified to help her if she wants to...you do not have to accept

any responsibility or blame from anyone else about her unhappiness.

I know you want your parents to love you and approve of you and that you feel

some guilt about them getting older...but none of their problems has anything to

do with you. Do you have a T who can help you learn how to take responsibility

only for your own part and allow other people to be responsible for theirs? How

can you nurture yourself?

Sveta

>

> I am new to this group, and have only recently discovered that my mother fits

most of the criteria for having BPD. I am both relieved to know that you are all

out there for support, and kind of horrified at the harm done to all of us from

being raised by BPD parents.  I've also been blown away by the caring and

helpful responses you've given to each other!

>

> I live overseas and visit my parents once a year with my 2 kids. My mother is

always on edge during these visits and I feel like she is constantly finding

fault with everything I do and say. She's sometimes critical with my children,

too, but usually manages to contain herself where they're concerned.  She is an

eternal victim and ruminates incessantly on all the bad things that people have

ever said to her or done to her (from her perspective). She seems to refuse to

recognize or accept that many of us care very much about her, listen to her, try

to help her, etc. She is almost 80 now, and has many physical limitations along

with what must be the mental torture of having both BPD and chronic depression.

>

> During our last visit, after what started out as a friendly conversation, she

made her typical comments about my not listening to her or caring about her and

I blew my top. I know now it was the absolute worst thing to do, but I yelled at

her that nothing was ever right for her, and that it was wrong for her to dish

out so much venom and take no responsibility for the climates she creates. She

was inconsolable and turned to my ever-enabling Dad for support. She has

basically convinced him that all of her children are selfish and rotten, and he

has flat out told me that he has chosen to take care of her, and that me and my

sisters are on our own. We're all in our 40s and more than capable of taking

care of ourselves, but he has never backed any of us up in the face of my Mom's

lifelong displeasure with us and accusations of us.

>

> So my parents haven't talked to me in almost 2 weeks, and I have no idea what

to say to them. I've already apologized for my yelling, but I seem to have

really crossed a line by kicking my mother whe she was down (when isn't she?).

While I was home, after the blow-up, I had long talks with my Dad about BPD and

he seemed convinced that my Mom really did suffer from it.  When I couldn't

" fix " the situation with my Mom, though, he reverted back to taking her side and

blaming me for her current bout of misery.  He told me several times that my Mom

now considers me to be a pariah.  He never has any advice about what to do next,

nor does he do anything to reassure me that I'm a decent person who deserves a

little credit for how much she has cared and tried to help over the years.  My

Mom can be a very sweet and generous person, but as my sister says, she sure

does extract a heavy price from us for her generosity. 

>  

> I'm not able to tolerate long silences with my parents because they are

elderly and I do love them, but I just can't grovel for forgiveness. Any advice

about how to move forward would be much appreciated. Since I am overseas, I can

only be in phone or email contact with them. Thanks.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I wanted to thank you all for your wise and caring comments on my post. I have

read and re-read them all in the past few weeks just before either calling or

emailing my parents to remind myself that I don't have to seek their approval,

beg for their forgiveness, or otherwise try to absolve myself of the life-long

guilt they've piled on me. I have been wanting to update the situation by

reporting my ability to be in contact with my parents within healthy boundaries,

but unfortunately, that hasn't been the case. My parents don't answer their

phone, their answering machine doesn't pick up, and they don't respond to my

emails.

My sister just sent an email to myself and my other sister saying that my mom

has mailed us all letters which I'm sure are full of loving and conciliatory

words (fat chance). My dad's the one who told my sister they had been sent, and

of course, he didn't try to stop her.

I think I'm coming to terms with the fact that my mom is mentally ill and that

she'll never be happy and we'll never have a healthy relationship, but it's

really hard to deal with the fact that my dad, who isn't mentally ill as far as

I know, could sit by and watch my mom alternately " love " and eviscerate his

children year after year, decade after decade. I KNOW if my husband ever pulled

a nada-style blaming rant on our children, I'd be out the door with them in a

heartbeat (and likewise if he heard similar crap from me). But good ol' Dad, he

could sit there silently, almost imperceptibly nodding his head in agreement as

my mom dragged us all down the misery lane of her past and ended with her

trademark " nobody listens, nobody cares, I'm going to leave you all (and/or)

kill myself " . My son is the same age I was when I remember the weirdness

starting in my family (6) and the thought of threatening him with abandonment or

saddling him with the horror of my killing myself sickens me. Why didn't it

sicken my dad (or mom for that matter, but I have to believe she couldn't

consider the consequences of her threats)?

You are all so right when you talk about the time and work it takes to mourn and

heal. I always thought I'd be a wreck when my parents died (I've always been

very sensitive and attached to them -- hmmm . . . wonder why), but I'm starting

to see that my grieving is starting now, while they're both still alive.

Thank you again everyone.

> >

> > I am new to this group, and have only recently discovered that my mother

fits most of the criteria for having BPD. I am both relieved to know that you

are all out there for support, and kind of horrified at the harm done to all of

us from being raised by BPD parents.  I've also been blown away by the caring

and helpful responses you've given to each other!

> >

> > I live overseas and visit my parents once a year with my 2 kids. My mother

is always on edge during these visits and I feel like she is constantly finding

fault with everything I do and say. She's sometimes critical with my children,

too, but usually manages to contain herself where they're concerned.  She is an

eternal victim and ruminates incessantly on all the bad things that people have

ever said to her or done to her (from her perspective). She seems to refuse to

recognize or accept that many of us care very much about her, listen to her, try

to help her, etc. She is almost 80 now, and has many physical limitations along

with what must be the mental torture of having both BPD and chronic depression.

> >

> > During our last visit, after what started out as a friendly conversation,

she made her typical comments about my not listening to her or caring about her

and I blew my top. I know now it was the absolute worst thing to do, but I

yelled at her that nothing was ever right for her, and that it was wrong for her

to dish out so much venom and take no responsibility for the climates she

creates. She was inconsolable and turned to my ever-enabling Dad for support.

She has basically convinced him that all of her children are selfish and rotten,

and he has flat out told me that he has chosen to take care of her, and that me

and my sisters are on our own. We're all in our 40s and more than capable of

taking care of ourselves, but he has never backed any of us up in the face of my

Mom's lifelong displeasure with us and accusations of us.

> >

> > So my parents haven't talked to me in almost 2 weeks, and I have no idea

what to say to them. I've already apologized for my yelling, but I seem to have

really crossed a line by kicking my mother whe she was down (when isn't she?).

While I was home, after the blow-up, I had long talks with my Dad about BPD and

he seemed convinced that my Mom really did suffer from it.  When I couldn't

" fix " the situation with my Mom, though, he reverted back to taking her side and

blaming me for her current bout of misery.  He told me several times that my Mom

now considers me to be a pariah.  He never has any advice about what to do next,

nor does he do anything to reassure me that I'm a decent person who deserves a

little credit for how much she has cared and tried to help over the years.  My

Mom can be a very sweet and generous person, but as my sister says, she sure

does extract a heavy price from us for her generosity. 

> >  

> > I'm not able to tolerate long silences with my parents because they are

elderly and I do love them, but I just can't grovel for forgiveness. Any advice

about how to move forward would be much appreciated. Since I am overseas, I can

only be in phone or email contact with them. Thanks.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

My situation is so close to yours that it feels like I wrote it. I'm so sorry. I

really know how you feel, it is unbelievable that a father could watch his wife

eviscerate her children. I also always thought my dad was healthy because he was

not abusive, but my partner was suspiscious when he witnessed my dad watching my

mom just annhilate me and did nothing about it. After that incident I researched

and found my father fit with the criteria for schizoid pd. It isn't uncommon for

those who are successful in staying married to a BPD to have one of these

dissociative disorders. I'm not saying that is what is going on with your dad,

but it is worth considering that he may have characteristics of an avoidant,

schizoid, or autistic nature if he is able to watch something like that.

I'm so sorry you are going through this. I hope you are able to continue finding

the strength within to get through!!

> > >

> > > I am new to this group, and have only recently discovered that my mother

fits most of the criteria for having BPD. I am both relieved to know that you

are all out there for support, and kind of horrified at the harm done to all of

us from being raised by BPD parents.  I've also been blown away by the caring

and helpful responses you've given to each other!

> > >

> > > I live overseas and visit my parents once a year with my 2 kids. My mother

is always on edge during these visits and I feel like she is constantly finding

fault with everything I do and say. She's sometimes critical with my children,

too, but usually manages to contain herself where they're concerned.  She is an

eternal victim and ruminates incessantly on all the bad things that people have

ever said to her or done to her (from her perspective). She seems to refuse to

recognize or accept that many of us care very much about her, listen to her, try

to help her, etc. She is almost 80 now, and has many physical limitations along

with what must be the mental torture of having both BPD and chronic depression.

> > >

> > > During our last visit, after what started out as a friendly conversation,

she made her typical comments about my not listening to her or caring about her

and I blew my top. I know now it was the absolute worst thing to do, but I

yelled at her that nothing was ever right for her, and that it was wrong for her

to dish out so much venom and take no responsibility for the climates she

creates. She was inconsolable and turned to my ever-enabling Dad for support.

She has basically convinced him that all of her children are selfish and rotten,

and he has flat out told me that he has chosen to take care of her, and that me

and my sisters are on our own. We're all in our 40s and more than capable of

taking care of ourselves, but he has never backed any of us up in the face of my

Mom's lifelong displeasure with us and accusations of us.

> > >

> > > So my parents haven't talked to me in almost 2 weeks, and I have no idea

what to say to them. I've already apologized for my yelling, but I seem to have

really crossed a line by kicking my mother whe she was down (when isn't she?).

While I was home, after the blow-up, I had long talks with my Dad about BPD and

he seemed convinced that my Mom really did suffer from it.  When I couldn't

" fix " the situation with my Mom, though, he reverted back to taking her side and

blaming me for her current bout of misery.  He told me several times that my Mom

now considers me to be a pariah.  He never has any advice about what to do next,

nor does he do anything to reassure me that I'm a decent person who deserves a

little credit for how much she has cared and tried to help over the years.  My

Mom can be a very sweet and generous person, but as my sister says, she sure

does extract a heavy price from us for her generosity. 

> > >  

> > > I'm not able to tolerate long silences with my parents because they are

elderly and I do love them, but I just can't grovel for forgiveness. Any advice

about how to move forward would be much appreciated. Since I am overseas, I can

only be in phone or email contact with them. Thanks.

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

When someone knowingly stays with a partner who is abusing their

kids, there's a reason they behave that way. I think the reasons

fall into three broad categories - they're mentally ill

themselves, they feel powerless to improve the situation, and/or

they're getting something out of the relationship that they

don't want to give up. Some people just don't have the personal

strength to stand up to a partner with BPD, particularly if

they've been dealing with it for years and have gotten used to

it.

In my case, the problem was that my father didn't really know

what was going on for a long time. It took him until I was 15 or

16 to understand that my nada had serious behavior problems.

Part of that was that she was good at not doing her worst where

he could see it and part of it was that he was (and still is)

good at not seeing what he doesn't want to see. He did kick her

our when it became obvious that he should do so. By that point

he had evidence that made it pointless for her to fight the

divorce or try to get custody of my brother and me. Without that

evidence the outcome could have been very different.

If your father watched her being cruel to you repeatedly, and

you want to understand why, you might ask yourself which of

those categories might fit him. Was he afraid of her to the

point where he felt powerless to stop her? Some men feel that if

they try to stop their wives, they'll end up divorced with the

abusive mother ending up with custody. Things have changed in

recent years but many of us are old enough for that to have been

a real concern at the time. Did he think that keeping the peace

between her and him was more important than stopping her from

what she did to you? Was he so enmeshed with her that he felt

what she was doing was right? Women with BPD do tend to find

themselves husbands who either also suffer from personality

disorders or who are dish-rag types who don't stand up against

them. When they marry a man who will stand up to them, the

result is often a divorce.

At 10:01 AM 08/30/2012 momabroadto2 wrote:

>I wanted to thank you all for your wise and caring comments on

>my post. I have read and re-read them all in the past few

>weeks just before either calling or emailing my parents to

>remind myself that I don't have to seek their approval, beg for

>their forgiveness, or otherwise try to absolve myself of the

>life-long guilt they've piled on me. I have been wanting to

>update the situation by reporting my ability to be in contact

>with my parents within healthy boundaries, but unfortunately,

>that hasn't been the case. My parents don't answer their

>phone, their answering machine doesn't pick up, and they don't

>respond to my emails.

>

>My sister just sent an email to myself and my other sister

>saying that my mom has mailed us all letters which I'm sure are

>full of loving and conciliatory words (fat chance). My dad's

>the one who told my sister they had been sent, and of course,

>he didn't try to stop her.

>

>I think I'm coming to terms with the fact that my mom is

>mentally ill and that she'll never be happy and we'll never

>have a healthy relationship, but it's really hard to deal with

>the fact that my dad, who isn't mentally ill as far as I know,

>could sit by and watch my mom alternately " love " and eviscerate

>his children year after year, decade after decade. I KNOW if

>my husband ever pulled a nada-style blaming rant on our

>children, I'd be out the door with them in a heartbeat (and

>likewise if he heard similar crap from me). But good ol' Dad,

>he could sit there silently, almost imperceptibly nodding his

>head in agreement as my mom dragged us all down the misery lane

>of her past and ended with her trademark " nobody listens,

>nobody cares, I'm going to leave you all (and/or) kill

>myself " . My son is the same age I was when I remember the

>weirdness starting in my family (6) and the thought of

>threatening him with abandonment or saddling him with the

>horror of my killing myself sickens me. Why didn't it sicken

>my dad (or mom for that matter, but I have to believe she

>couldn't consider the consequences of her threats)?

>

>You are all so right when you talk about the time and work it

>takes to mourn and heal. I always thought I'd be a wreck when

>my parents died (I've always been very sensitive and attached

>to them -- hmmm . . . wonder why), but I'm starting to see that

>my grieving is starting now, while they're both still alive.

>

>Thank you again everyone.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

At your age, and due to the fact you have your own kids to protect, I'm

sure you know by now that your parents are never going to change. Your

father is 100% as abusive and vile as your mother. Without a doubt, he also

has a disorder. He could easily be NPD, schizoid, a high-functioning

psychopath, etc etc. Sometimes people with these disorders go a bit

unnoticed (for a while) because some of these individuals are masters at

hiding their inner truth and doing whatever it takes to " look like the nice

guy " or the " reasonable guy " . This is part of their game. This feeds their

ego. Your dad plays this disgusting card to both YOU AND YOUR MOTHER. My

question is, why do you want to reconnect? What are you getting from these

abusive people? Why is it that you need their approval? Their forgiveness?

You did nothing wrong. You're an adult. You don't need approval from those

who are ... insane and toxic. Therefore, you don't need to reconnect. You

need to wait, worry about yourself and your kids, and heal. It's not your

job to do something for your abusive parents, you can't control them, and

anything you do in efforts to convince them to reconnect is just one more

day that they are continuing to CONTROL YOU. Break free.

[Guest guest]

Once again, thank you all for your responses.  As I mentioned in my first post,

I only recently found out about BPD, and I'm still learning the ropes.

 

I am trying to figure out what my dad is all about, (thanks for all the info,

Katrina) and the best I can come up with is that he's just a passive,

let's-not-rock-the-boat kind of guy who has made accommodating my mother his

life's ambition.  If he has any needs or desires of his own, none of us know

anything about him.  When we ask, " How's it going, Dad? " , his reply is

invariably, " No complaints. "   Seriously, with your psycho-mess of a wife, no

complaints?  I've read that these men are often called saints by their

aquaintances, and I've often told my dad the same thing.  My parents are also

very Catholic, so divorce and suicide are out of the question.  Apparently,

Catholics have no problem with threatening suicide or telling their kids it's

because of them, though. 

 

It's hard for me to see him as vile, Elana, because he's never proactively hurt

me.  It's all been passive and the result of choosing his wife over his kids --

he's a simple man who has seen his kids grow into responsible adults, so I think

he figures everything worked out okay for us in the end, so why worry? 

 

And I don't know if there's anyone out there who feels the same as me, but

despite all the evidence that no contact is the way to go, it just doesn't sit

right at all with me.  I totally realize that many of you HAVE to go that way

to preserve your sanity and sense of self worth, but I just don't think I could

be at peace with myself because I already have limited contact, and I feel

like I'd be punishing my parents for a mental condition my mom didn't ask for

(she suffered from fetal alcohol syndrome and abject abuse and neglect as a

kid), and a noble choice by my dad, at least in his mind, to love and support

her when, frankly, no one else would.  I know it's not right and did me no

good, but they do see my anger and silence as punishment and a total repudiation

of all they've done for me as parents.  Unlike some of you whose heart-breaking

stories I've read, I do have many memories of love and support.  I just have a

lot of memories of

character assassination, shame, guilt, abandonment and narcissistic

self-involvement, too.  But I know that I'll survive whatever lies ahead for me

in my relationship with them, especially now that I'm armed with so much more

information than I had just weeks ago.  And I know I'll never change them. 

 

To answer your question of what I get out of the relationship, Elana, I guess I

get peace of mind that I am a compassionate person, and I get a tremendous sense

of relief that I'm not mentally ill and totally broken like they are, and that

makes me incredibly grateful for my life and my husband and kids. 

 

I know some of you are seeing red flags all over the place here, and I may see

them too one day, but for now I still feel the urge to get in touch (despite the

fact that they're steadfastly ignoring me, and the apparent fact that my mom has

been referring to myself and my 2 sisters as " the three bitches " ). 

 

I know, I need a therapist, and if I could find one that spoke English and had

reasonable credentials in the country I live, I'd have one. 

 

Subject: Re: How to re-connect after a blow up

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 2:43 PM

 

At your age, and due to the fact you have your own kids to protect, I'm

sure you know by now that your parents are never going to change. Your

father is 100% as abusive and vile as your mother. Without a doubt, he also

has a disorder. He could easily be NPD, schizoid, a high-functioning

psychopath, etc etc. Sometimes people with these disorders go a bit

unnoticed (for a while) because some of these individuals are masters at

hiding their inner truth and doing whatever it takes to " look like the nice

guy " or the " reasonable guy " . This is part of their game. This feeds their

ego. Your dad plays this disgusting card to both YOU AND YOUR MOTHER. My

question is, why do you want to reconnect? What are you getting from these

abusive people? Why is it that you need their approval? Their forgiveness?

You did nothing wrong. You're an adult. You don't need approval from those

who are ... insane and toxic. Therefore, you don't need to reconnect. You

need to wait, worry about yourself and your kids, and heal. It's not your

job to do something for your abusive parents, you can't control them, and

anything you do in efforts to convince them to reconnect is just one more

day that they are continuing to CONTROL YOU. Break free.

[Guest guest]

It's not your fault.

Even though your mother has a mental condition and doesn't yet know how to

handle it, you do not have the power to make her better. It is good that you are

able to have pity and compassion for her...but you need to be compassionate with

yourself, too. You were abused as a child and continue to be abused. You need to

be loved and heard and valued. Your parents are not capable of meeting those

needs and instead continue to find ways to hurt you. How can you take care of

the part of you that needs love and protection? If you saw a young child being

abused and abandoned by her mother, what would you do?

I can understand why you feel like you have to make contact. You have been

trained to respond that way, to believe it's your responsibility to fix

everything. You need stability and safety and approval and have learned to do

whatever you can to calm things down so that you can get those needs met...It

can be hard to see that there are other ways that might be more helpful.

Do what you feel you need to do. But it is not wrong to wait. It is not

abandoning your mother. It is not punishing her. It is taking care of you, and

you are worth taking care of too.

>

>

> From: Elana

> Subject: Re: How to re-connect after a blow up

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 2:43 PM

>

>

>

>  

>

>

>

> At your age, and due to the fact you have your own kids to protect, I'm

> sure you know by now that your parents are never going to change. Your

> father is 100% as abusive and vile as your mother. Without a doubt, he also

> has a disorder. He could easily be NPD, schizoid, a high-functioning

> psychopath, etc etc. Sometimes people with these disorders go a bit

> unnoticed (for a while) because some of these individuals are masters at

> hiding their inner truth and doing whatever it takes to " look like the nice

> guy " or the " reasonable guy " . This is part of their game. This feeds their

> ego. Your dad plays this disgusting card to both YOU AND YOUR MOTHER. My

> question is, why do you want to reconnect? What are you getting from these

> abusive people? Why is it that you need their approval? Their forgiveness?

> You did nothing wrong. You're an adult. You don't need approval from those

> who are ... insane and toxic. Therefore, you don't need to reconnect. You

> need to wait, worry about yourself and your kids, and heal. It's not your

> job to do something for your abusive parents, you can't control them, and

> anything you do in efforts to convince them to reconnect is just one more

> day that they are continuing to CONTROL YOU. Break free.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Watching a child get abused and not stopping it is not all that

much better than abusing a child yourself in my opinion. Most

people would try to put a stop to it if they saw someone

savagely beating a child but they often fail to intervene when a

child is savaged verbally instead of physically. The damage from

on-going emotional abuse can be as bad or worse though. Many

people just don't understand how damaging it is. Dish-rag dads

married to women with BPD are generally at least somewhat

emotionally abused themselves too which can make it harder for

them to protect their children. I think that all adds up to the

question of whether dads who don't stop nadas are vile people or

not having a complex answer.

Having limited contact or no contact is a personal choice and

both are valid choices. If no contact doesn't feel right to you,

that's fine. I think you should try to get away from seeing it

as punishing them when you act to protect yourself though. You

have a right to lead your own life and to feel safe and secure.

If a dog is rabid you protect yourself from it no matter how

much you may have loved it when it was healthy. You don't let

yourself be bitten by it because protect yourselfself is

punishing the dog. Your nada didn't choose to be mentally ill

but you didn't choose for her to be mentally ill either. She did

choose to be abusive to you and she failed to choose to get help

for her mental illness. You can choose to protect yourself.

Being a compassionate person doesn't require you to subject

yourself to abuse either. In fact, I'm not at all convinced that

it is actually compassionate to keep putting yourself in the

line of fire with someone who has BPD. I think it is sometimes

more compassionate to take yourself out of the equation because

nothing you do is ever going to be good enough and they just

keep getting worked up over your supposed failings. Plus you

deserve compassion yourself. Being compassionate applies to

yourself too.

If they don't want to have contact with you, make sure you don't

push too far in your attempt to change that. They have the right

to choose not to be in contact just like we have the right not

to be in contact with them. If they actually say they don't want

contact rather than just not responding, you have to respect

that whether it seems reasonable or not.

At 11:32 AM 09/01/2012 Beth Marinucci wrote:

>Once again, thank you all for your responses. As I mentioned

>in my first post, I only recently found out about BPD, and I'm

>still learning the ropes.

>

>I am trying to figure out what my dad is all about, (thanks for

>all the info, Katrina) and the best I can come up with is that

>he's just a passive, let's-not-rock-the-boat kind of guy who

>has made accommodating my mother his life's ambition. If he

>has any needs or desires of his own, none of us know anything

>about him. When we ask, " How's it going, Dad? " , his reply is

>invariably, " No complaints. " Seriously, with your psycho-mess

>of a wife, no complaints? I've read that these men are often

>called saints by their aquaintances, and I've often told my dad

>the same thing. My parents are also very Catholic, so divorce

>and suicide are out of the question. Apparently, Catholics

>have no problem with threatening suicide or telling their kids

>it's because of them, though.

>

>It's hard for me to see him as vile, Elana, because he's never

>proactively hurt me. It's all been passive and the result of

>choosing his wife over his kids -- he's a simple man who has

>seen his kids grow into responsible adults, so I think he

>figures everything worked out okay for us in the end, so why

>worry?

>

>And I don't know if there's anyone out there who feels the same

>as me, but despite all the evidence that no contact is the way

>to go, it just doesn't sit right at all with me. I totally

>realize that many of you HAVE to go that way to preserve your

>sanity and sense of self worth, but I just don't think I could

>be at peace with myself because I already have limited contact,

>and I feel like I'd be punishing my parents for a mental

>condition my mom didn't ask for (she suffered from fetal

>alcohol syndrome and abject abuse and neglect as a kid), and a

>noble choice by my dad, at least in his mind, to love and

>support her when, frankly, no one else would. I know it's not

>right and did me no good, but they do see my anger and silence

>as punishment and a total repudiation of all they've done for

>me as parents. Unlike some of you whose heart-breaking stories

>I've read, I do have many memories of love and support. I just

>have a lot of memories of

> character assassination, shame, guilt, abandonment and

> narcissistic self-involvement, too. But I know that I'll

> survive whatever lies ahead for me in my relationship with

> them, especially now that I'm armed with so much more

> information than I had just weeks ago. And I know I'll never

> change them.

>

>To answer your question of what I get out of the relationship,

>Elana, I guess I get peace of mind that I am a compassionate

>person, and I get a tremendous sense of relief that I'm not

>mentally ill and totally broken like they are, and that makes

>me incredibly grateful for my life and my husband and kids.

>

>I know some of you are seeing red flags all over the place

>here, and I may see them too one day, but for now I still feel

>the urge to get in touch (despite the fact that they're

>steadfastly ignoring me, and the apparent fact that my mom has

>been referring to myself and my 2 sisters as " the three

>bitches " ).

>

>I know, I need a therapist, and if I could find one that spoke

>English and had reasonable credentials in the country I live,

>I'd have one.

>

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

This is pretty much my take on the issue of self-protection, also.

Each relationship dynamic between a bpd parent and their non-pd child is

different; some parents with bpd are only mildly affected by the traits and

symptoms of the disorder, so limited contact with firm boundaries in place is

possible. Some parents may only have a very bad case of " fleas " instead of

actual bpd, and have the potential to change if they can feel distressed by

their own behaviors, can accept personal responsibility for their own words and

actions, if they WANT to change, and are willing to put in the time and effort

to do so. Some bpd parents are somewhere in the middle, more than mildly

affected by the traits of bpd and so requiring more effort to maintain and

enforce boundaries, in order to remain in contact.

But other parents with bpd are severely affected: these individuals are actively

hostile, dangerous and are out to do real damage to anyone whom they believe has

thwarted them or disrespected them, or will leave them. Such toxic individuals

attempt to invade and control their adult child's life, attempt to break up

their child's marriage, attempt to wrest parental control of their grandchildren

away from the parents, attempt to drain their adult child/children financially,

attempt to destroy their adult child's good name and good reputation in their

extended family, their community or business environment, or they try to finish

the job of destroying their adult child's psyche that they began when the child

was tiny, by parentifying the child, spousifying the child, scapegoating the

child, exploiting the child, infantilizing the child, or turning the child into

" the designated patient " for life.

Some parents with bpd have other disorders going on at the same time (that's

called having a co-morbidity) or their bpd diagnostic traits present in an

extreme degree. My own nada had a whopping dose of diagnostic trait #9:

paranoia and delusional thinking which affected her perceptions of reality and

she also had a huge sense of entitlement and a lack of empathy (narcissistic pd

traits) which made my nada feel that she had the right to treat Sister and me

any way she wanted to, including screaming rage-tantrums of emotional and

physical abuse (always in private) and we had to just take it and tell her we

loved her afterward (very sick-making and sado-masochistic, seems to me.)

On the other side of the equation, some KOs have more inner resilience to draw

on, while others have less or have had their resilience beaten out of them.

So, I agree that simply protecting yourself from someone who is actively out to

harm you is not being a bad person or a bad daughter/son; its morally neutral.

Its no more being punitive that withdrawing your hand from a hot stove is

punishing or being " bad " to the red-hot stove.

I admire my younger Sister for her grim determination to remain in limited

contact with our nada (nada passed away last Christmas) but she told me she was

only able to do so because she had completely emotionally detached from our

mother, as though our mother had died. Sister simply looked after the interests

of this elderly woman in a responsible way, out of sheer humanitarianism, but

Sister said that it was like responsibly caring for one of her clients which she

does in a skilled, thorough, professional, and efficient manner, but with no

emotional involvement.

I was unable to completely detach like that; my nada's ugly words still had the

power to hurt me deeply and inflict fresh emotional injury on me because I could

not step back and emotionally detach, so I had to go virtually total No Contact

in order to protect myself.

So, its a totally and uniquely personal choice, and I personally make no

judgements either for or against the individual's choice to remain in contact or

to go No Contact. Only you, the individual KO, can know what will work best

for you, your children, your spouse, what you can and can't live with, and what

you need in order to heal as best you can.

-Annie

>

> Watching a child get abused and not stopping it is not all that

> much better than abusing a child yourself in my opinion. Most

> people would try to put a stop to it if they saw someone

> savagely beating a child but they often fail to intervene when a

> child is savaged verbally instead of physically. The damage from

> on-going emotional abuse can be as bad or worse though. Many

> people just don't understand how damaging it is. Dish-rag dads

> married to women with BPD are generally at least somewhat

> emotionally abused themselves too which can make it harder for

> them to protect their children. I think that all adds up to the

> question of whether dads who don't stop nadas are vile people or

> not having a complex answer.

>

> Having limited contact or no contact is a personal choice and

> both are valid choices. If no contact doesn't feel right to you,

> that's fine. I think you should try to get away from seeing it

> as punishing them when you act to protect yourself though. You

> have a right to lead your own life and to feel safe and secure.

> If a dog is rabid you protect yourself from it no matter how

> much you may have loved it when it was healthy. You don't let

> yourself be bitten by it because protect yourselfself is

> punishing the dog. Your nada didn't choose to be mentally ill

> but you didn't choose for her to be mentally ill either. She did

> choose to be abusive to you and she failed to choose to get help

> for her mental illness. You can choose to protect yourself.

> Being a compassionate person doesn't require you to subject

> yourself to abuse either. In fact, I'm not at all convinced that

> it is actually compassionate to keep putting yourself in the

> line of fire with someone who has BPD. I think it is sometimes

> more compassionate to take yourself out of the equation because

> nothing you do is ever going to be good enough and they just

> keep getting worked up over your supposed failings. Plus you

> deserve compassion yourself. Being compassionate applies to

> yourself too.

>

> If they don't want to have contact with you, make sure you don't

> push too far in your attempt to change that. They have the right

> to choose not to be in contact just like we have the right not

> to be in contact with them. If they actually say they don't want

> contact rather than just not responding, you have to respect

> that whether it seems reasonable or not.

[Guest guest]

In trying to figure out my dad, who sounds a lot like yours, I discovered he has

schizoid pd. I am not saying that is what is going on with your dad, but in case

it helps here's some background info on it. I'm certainly not trying to push

that theory on you just think it's uncanny the degree to which your situation

mirrors my own, and how helpful it became when I realized that even though my

dad is a sweet and mild mannered man he is still ill with a very different

illness from my mother's

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx30.htm

>

>

> From: Elana

> Subject: Re: How to re-connect after a blow up

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 2:43 PM

>

>

>

>  

>

>

>

> At your age, and due to the fact you have your own kids to protect, I'm

> sure you know by now that your parents are never going to change. Your

> father is 100% as abusive and vile as your mother. Without a doubt, he also

> has a disorder. He could easily be NPD, schizoid, a high-functioning

> psychopath, etc etc. Sometimes people with these disorders go a bit

> unnoticed (for a while) because some of these individuals are masters at

> hiding their inner truth and doing whatever it takes to " look like the nice

> guy " or the " reasonable guy " . This is part of their game. This feeds their

> ego. Your dad plays this disgusting card to both YOU AND YOUR MOTHER. My

> question is, why do you want to reconnect? What are you getting from these

> abusive people? Why is it that you need their approval? Their forgiveness?

> You did nothing wrong. You're an adult. You don't need approval from those

> who are ... insane and toxic. Therefore, you don't need to reconnect. You

> need to wait, worry about yourself and your kids, and heal. It's not your

> job to do something for your abusive parents, you can't control them, and

> anything you do in efforts to convince them to reconnect is just one more

> day that they are continuing to CONTROL YOU. Break free.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow -- you are right.  This sounds just like my dad, too.  What are the odds

of having 2 parents with mental illnesses?  I wonder if one is really ill (my

mom) and if my dad just has a whole lot of learned responses to cope with her

that mirror an illness that he may or may not otherwise have?  This is really

interesting food for thought.  Thanks so much for sending it. 

Subject: Re: How to re-connect after a blow up

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Sunday, September 2, 2012, 10:22 AM

 

In trying to figure out my dad, who sounds a lot like yours, I discovered he has

schizoid pd. I am not saying that is what is going on with your dad, but in case

it helps here's some background info on it. I'm certainly not trying to push

that theory on you just think it's uncanny the degree to which your situation

mirrors my own, and how helpful it became when I realized that even though my

dad is a sweet and mild mannered man he is still ill with a very different

illness from my mother's

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx30.htm

>

>

> From: Elana

> Subject: Re: How to re-connect after a blow up

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 2:43 PM

>

>

>

>  

>

>

>

> At your age, and due to the fact you have your own kids to protect, I'm

> sure you know by now that your parents are never going to change. Your

> father is 100% as abusive and vile as your mother. Without a doubt, he also

> has a disorder. He could easily be NPD, schizoid, a high-functioning

> psychopath, etc etc. Sometimes people with these disorders go a bit

> unnoticed (for a while) because some of these individuals are masters at

> hiding their inner truth and doing whatever it takes to " look like the nice

> guy " or the " reasonable guy " . This is part of their game. This feeds their

> ego. Your dad plays this disgusting card to both YOU AND YOUR MOTHER. My

> question is, why do you want to reconnect? What are you getting from these

> abusive people? Why is it that you need their approval? Their forgiveness?

> You did nothing wrong. You're an adult. You don't need approval from those

> who are ... insane and toxic. Therefore, you don't need to reconnect. You

> need to wait, worry about yourself and your kids, and heal. It's not your

> job to do something for your abusive parents, you can't control them, and

> anything you do in efforts to convince them to reconnect is just one more

> day that they are continuing to CONTROL YOU. Break free.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Very interesting and helpful info.  Thank you to you both.

 

It does seem that some of us have walked on eggshells our whole lives, but some

have had to walk over hot coals.  I guess I'd put myself in the eggshells

category.  My mom is infuriating and perplexing and destructive in her

behavior, but she hasn't been hell-bent on destroying my life, as it sounds like

some of your parents have been. 

 

I have to say, being out of contact has been very peaceful in the past few

weeks, but I will be calling home tonight.  I'll be taking lots of deep, deep

breaths before dialing . . . 

Subject: Re: How to re-connect after a blow up

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 9:52 PM

 

This is pretty much my take on the issue of self-protection, also.

Each relationship dynamic between a bpd parent and their non-pd child is

different; some parents with bpd are only mildly affected by the traits and

symptoms of the disorder, so limited contact with firm boundaries in place is

possible. Some parents may only have a very bad case of " fleas " instead of

actual bpd, and have the potential to change if they can feel distressed by

their own behaviors, can accept personal responsibility for their own words and

actions, if they WANT to change, and are willing to put in the time and effort

to do so. Some bpd parents are somewhere in the middle, more than mildly

affected by the traits of bpd and so requiring more effort to maintain and

enforce boundaries, in order to remain in contact.

But other parents with bpd are severely affected: these individuals are actively

hostile, dangerous and are out to do real damage to anyone whom they believe has

thwarted them or disrespected them, or will leave them. Such toxic individuals

attempt to invade and control their adult child's life, attempt to break up

their child's marriage, attempt to wrest parental control of their grandchildren

away from the parents, attempt to drain their adult child/children financially,

attempt to destroy their adult child's good name and good reputation in their

extended family, their community or business environment, or they try to finish

the job of destroying their adult child's psyche that they began when the child

was tiny, by parentifying the child, spousifying the child, scapegoating the

child, exploiting the child, infantilizing the child, or turning the child into

" the designated patient " for life.

Some parents with bpd have other disorders going on at the same time (that's

called having a co-morbidity) or their bpd diagnostic traits present in an

extreme degree. My own nada had a whopping dose of diagnostic trait #9: paranoia

and delusional thinking which affected her perceptions of reality and she also

had a huge sense of entitlement and a lack of empathy (narcissistic pd traits)

which made my nada feel that she had the right to treat Sister and me any way

she wanted to, including screaming rage-tantrums of emotional and physical abuse

(always in private) and we had to just take it and tell her we loved her

afterward (very sick-making and sado-masochistic, seems to me.)

On the other side of the equation, some KOs have more inner resilience to draw

on, while others have less or have had their resilience beaten out of them.

So, I agree that simply protecting yourself from someone who is actively out to

harm you is not being a bad person or a bad daughter/son; its morally neutral.

Its no more being punitive that withdrawing your hand from a hot stove is

punishing or being " bad " to the red-hot stove.

I admire my younger Sister for her grim determination to remain in limited

contact with our nada (nada passed away last Christmas) but she told me she was

only able to do so because she had completely emotionally detached from our

mother, as though our mother had died. Sister simply looked after the interests

of this elderly woman in a responsible way, out of sheer humanitarianism, but

Sister said that it was like responsibly caring for one of her clients which she

does in a skilled, thorough, professional, and efficient manner, but with no

emotional involvement.

I was unable to completely detach like that; my nada's ugly words still had the

power to hurt me deeply and inflict fresh emotional injury on me because I could

not step back and emotionally detach, so I had to go virtually total No Contact

in order to protect myself.

So, its a totally and uniquely personal choice, and I personally make no

judgements either for or against the individual's choice to remain in contact or

to go No Contact. Only you, the individual KO, can know what will work best for

you, your children, your spouse, what you can and can't live with, and what you

need in order to heal as best you can.

-Annie

>

> Watching a child get abused and not stopping it is not all that

> much better than abusing a child yourself in my opinion. Most

> people would try to put a stop to it if they saw someone

> savagely beating a child but they often fail to intervene when a

> child is savaged verbally instead of physically. The damage from

> on-going emotional abuse can be as bad or worse though. Many

> people just don't understand how damaging it is. Dish-rag dads

> married to women with BPD are generally at least somewhat

> emotionally abused themselves too which can make it harder for

> them to protect their children. I think that all adds up to the

> question of whether dads who don't stop nadas are vile people or

> not having a complex answer.

>

> Having limited contact or no contact is a personal choice and

> both are valid choices. If no contact doesn't feel right to you,

> that's fine. I think you should try to get away from seeing it

> as punishing them when you act to protect yourself though. You

> have a right to lead your own life and to feel safe and secure.

> If a dog is rabid you protect yourself from it no matter how

> much you may have loved it when it was healthy. You don't let

> yourself be bitten by it because protect yourselfself is

> punishing the dog. Your nada didn't choose to be mentally ill

> but you didn't choose for her to be mentally ill either. She did

> choose to be abusive to you and she failed to choose to get help

> for her mental illness. You can choose to protect yourself.

> Being a compassionate person doesn't require you to subject

> yourself to abuse either. In fact, I'm not at all convinced that

> it is actually compassionate to keep putting yourself in the

> line of fire with someone who has BPD. I think it is sometimes

> more compassionate to take yourself out of the equation because

> nothing you do is ever going to be good enough and they just

> keep getting worked up over your supposed failings. Plus you

> deserve compassion yourself. Being compassionate applies to

> yourself too.

>

> If they don't want to have contact with you, make sure you don't

> push too far in your attempt to change that. They have the right

> to choose not to be in contact just like we have the right not

> to be in contact with them. If they actually say they don't want

> contact rather than just not responding, you have to respect

> that whether it seems reasonable or not.

[Guest guest]

I think the odds of having two parents with mental illnesses are

higher than you might think. It appears to me that people with

personality disorders often end up together. I think women with

BPD look for certain types of men and the criteria they're using

often lead them to men who are mentally ill. Besides that, why

would a mentally healthy man want to subject himself to a

lifetime of dealing with a spouse with BPD? Either they end the

relationship before it ever gets to the point of marriage or

long-term cohabitation and children or they realize afterward

and get a divorce like my father did. If a man does start out

mentally healthy but chooses to stay with a woman with BPD it

does seem likely that he'd end up with some coping mechanisms

that aren't mentally healthy, and potentially with an actual

mental illness like depression.

At 09:42 AM 09/03/2012 Beth Marinucci wrote:

>Wow -- you are right. This sounds just like my dad, too. What

>are the odds of having 2 parents with mental illnesses? I

>wonder if one is really ill (my mom) and if my dad just has a

>whole lot of learned responses to cope with her that mirror an

>illness that he may or may not otherwise have? This is really

>interesting food for thought. Thanks so much for sending it.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

In the book " Understanding The Borderline Mother " , Lawson has a

chapter on the men who are attracted to and/or are chosen by the different

sub-categories of bpd women; she describes the types of men in the terms of

various famous fairy tales

A synopsis:

*WAIF Bpd chooses the Frog-Prince:

someone she can rescue and who she hopes will rescue her; she " identifies with

the Frog's helplessness and fantasizes about providing for him what she needs

for herself. "

" Because Frog-Prince fathers are unable to provide reliable emotional support,

their children may be emotionally neglected. "

*HERMIT Bpd chooses the Huntsman:

a partner who will pity and protect her; she " envies the Huntsman's courage and

desperately needs his soothing presence. "

" The child of the Hermit and the Huntsman...may feel betrayed by both parents,

particularly if the Hermit is abusive and the Huntsman fails to intervene. "

*QUEEN Bpd chooses the King:

someone who " attracts attention through his prominence, wealth, or power "

(sometimes, the classic BPD/NPD couple)

" The King and Queen's child, however, may feel emotionally abandoned by both

parents. The King is the prototypical narcissist. "

*WITCH Bpd chooses the Fisherman:

someone " she can dominate and control, " a " subservient partner who admires her

courage/strength and who relinquishes his will at her command "

" The Fisherman's fear of his wife prevents him from protecting his children from

her vindictiveness and abuse. He relinquishes his will to the Witch, functioning

as an extension of her. Men who are married to Witches participate in a " folie a

deux " (literally a " double madness " ), which reinforces the Witch's distorted

perceptions of her children. "

***

I agree with you, Katrina; the disordered seem to find and mesh with each other

like puzzle pieces locking together. I always wondered why my dad didn't decide

to divorce nada, particularly after Sister and I were on our own, but he was

bonded to her like glue. I genuinely could not understand why. (But then, so

was I. Go figure.) And, my dad did wind up both drinking and smoking himself

to death relatively early; he didn't reach 70.

-Annie

>

> I think the odds of having two parents with mental illnesses are

> higher than you might think. It appears to me that people with

> personality disorders often end up together. I think women with

> BPD look for certain types of men and the criteria they're using

> often lead them to men who are mentally ill. Besides that, why

> would a mentally healthy man want to subject himself to a

> lifetime of dealing with a spouse with BPD? Either they end the

> relationship before it ever gets to the point of marriage or

> long-term cohabitation and children or they realize afterward

> and get a divorce like my father did. If a man does start out

> mentally healthy but chooses to stay with a woman with BPD it

> does seem likely that he'd end up with some coping mechanisms

> that aren't mentally healthy, and potentially with an actual

> mental illness like depression.

[Guest guest]

The much anticipated (for me, at least) contact with my parents after weeks of

silence finally occurred moments ago.  What a disaster.  I'm proud of myself

for just listening to my mom's endless guilt-inducing rant of how much my

sisters and myself have been loved, and how she just can't fathom after 45 years

of unconditional love of us we turn on her and all we can talk about is how

horrible our childhoods were and what a horrible mother she was and how she had

no one to share her life with and on and on and on with random examples jumping

all over the span of time. . .  I'm as exhausted writing that as I was

listening to it.  Then she handed the phone back to my dad without my being

allowed to say to a word, which I swear was going to be kind but firm.  I kept

very calm this time. 

 

Before the rant, though, I first talked with my dad who asked me just what I

meant by yelling at my mom that I will never raise my kids the way she did while

I was home this summer.  I did yell.  I did not say that.  I said something

more specific about not threatening to abandon my children like she did, which

was in the context of what we were arguing about, but they both " heard " the

former statement, and refused to address or recognize the fact that the

latter episodes that I was referring to had ever even happened.  Again, I'm

the rotten ingrate who says outrageous, soul-wrenching things to her parents. 

Again, anything that I ever went through means nothing compared to what my mom

went through, and has been more than made up for anyway in my life by all the

love that we've been shown over the years. 

 

Honestly, the guilt creeps back in.  Will that ever stop?

 

I tried so hard to have a rational conversation with my dad after my mom handed

the phone off about how I didn't say what they thought they heard, how it's just

as hard for me to believe that they can't see any of the good my sisters and

I have tried to do all our lives after we show (rare) instances of frustration

over the negative environments my mom creates, how I do see and appreciate all

they've done over the years which is why I keep trying to get in contact.  He

wasn't having any of it.  He's in it thick with her.  He wants us to throw our

arms around our mom, apologize for the zillions of rotten things we never really

said, tell her how she was the best mom ever . . . There's no gray area, not

even a sliver of possibility that anything hurtful could have happened to us

that affects the relationship we have with her now.  They both adamantly deny

it.  He made it very clear that that is the situation now, and that's how it

always would be. 

He's not interested in the books and articles about BPD we've given him.  He's

not interested in her getting any better than she is.  She's right.  We're

wrong.  End of story.  Then he hung up on me. 

 

Mentally ill he is.  Not a shred of rationality in either of their heads. 

I've got a handle on my mom's illness now, so it's time to start looking at my

dad.  Thanks again Katrina and Annie for all of the information.  It is always

so poignant and on-the-mark. 

Subject: Re: How to re-connect after a blow up

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Monday, September 3, 2012, 11:27 AM

 

In the book " Understanding The Borderline Mother " , Lawson has a

chapter on the men who are attracted to and/or are chosen by the different

sub-categories of bpd women; she describes the types of men in the terms of

various famous fairy tales

A synopsis:

*WAIF Bpd chooses the Frog-Prince:

someone she can rescue and who she hopes will rescue her; she " identifies with

the Frog's helplessness and fantasizes about providing for him what she needs

for herself. "

" Because Frog-Prince fathers are unable to provide reliable emotional support,

their children may be emotionally neglected. "

*HERMIT Bpd chooses the Huntsman:

a partner who will pity and protect her; she " envies the Huntsman's courage and

desperately needs his soothing presence. "

" The child of the Hermit and the Huntsman...may feel betrayed by both parents,

particularly if the Hermit is abusive and the Huntsman fails to intervene. "

*QUEEN Bpd chooses the King:

someone who " attracts attention through his prominence, wealth, or power "

(sometimes, the classic BPD/NPD couple)

" The King and Queen's child, however, may feel emotionally abandoned by both

parents. The King is the prototypical narcissist. "

*WITCH Bpd chooses the Fisherman:

someone " she can dominate and control, " a " subservient partner who admires her

courage/strength and who relinquishes his will at her command "

" The Fisherman's fear of his wife prevents him from protecting his children from

her vindictiveness and abuse. He relinquishes his will to the Witch, functioning

as an extension of her. Men who are married to Witches participate in a " folie a

deux " (literally a " double madness " ), which reinforces the Witch's distorted

perceptions of her children. "

***

I agree with you, Katrina; the disordered seem to find and mesh with each other

like puzzle pieces locking together. I always wondered why my dad didn't decide

to divorce nada, particularly after Sister and I were on our own, but he was

bonded to her like glue. I genuinely could not understand why. (But then, so was

I. Go figure.) And, my dad did wind up both drinking and smoking himself to

death relatively early; he didn't reach 70.

-Annie

>

> I think the odds of having two parents with mental illnesses are

> higher than you might think. It appears to me that people with

> personality disorders often end up together. I think women with

> BPD look for certain types of men and the criteria they're using

> often lead them to men who are mentally ill. Besides that, why

> would a mentally healthy man want to subject himself to a

> lifetime of dealing with a spouse with BPD? Either they end the

> relationship before it ever gets to the point of marriage or

> long-term cohabitation and children or they realize afterward

> and get a divorce like my father did. If a man does start out

> mentally healthy but chooses to stay with a woman with BPD it

> does seem likely that he'd end up with some coping mechanisms

> that aren't mentally healthy, and potentially with an actual

> mental illness like depression.

[Guest guest]

I'm so sorry that it didn't go well; I know that you felt very badly that your

parents cut contact with you. You owned your part of the problem and you

apologized, and were hoping that your parents would be willing to at least try

discussing your differences from a place of calm, rational, and mutually

empathetic understanding.

So, I can understand your disappointment.

It took decades for me to finally understand and accept that it was just not

possible for me to have a rational discussion with my nada. Actual hard facts

had no impact on her reasoning or understanding, because to my nada her feelings

made her skewed beliefs facts. You can't have a logical, rational discussion

with someone who is illogical and irrational.

I couldn't take the blaming and the false accusations anymore, either. Hearing

my nada say what she really thought of me (one example: nada said that I only

contacted her when I wanted something from her) tore my heart out. I finally

realized that my own mother didn't even really know me or know how I felt in my

heart, and I finally realized that she *wanted* to hurt me and felt entitled to.

She felt that I'd hurt her first, and she had the right to retaliate, I guess.

The things she did and said to me over my lifetime were not a one-time " oops " ; a

decades-long pattern of cruelty is not an " oops. " I finally realized that if my

mother loved me, she would not or could not have treated me the way she did.

The things she did to me and said to me, are not love.

So, more power to you if you can and want to remain in contact, but I don't

blame anyone who just can't take the bpd behaviors any more; I have great

empathy for KOs who find that for the sake of their own health they need to cut

contact either temporarily or permanently.

-Annie

>

> The much anticipated (for me, at least) contact with my parents after weeks of

silence finally occurred moments ago.  What a disaster.  I'm proud of myself

for just listening to my mom's endless guilt-inducing rant of how much my

sisters and myself have been loved, and how she just can't fathom after 45 years

of unconditional love of us we turn on her and all we can talk about is how

horrible our childhoods were and what a horrible mother she was and how she had

no one to share her life with and on and on and on with random examples jumping

all over the span of time. . .  I'm as exhausted writing that as I was

listening to it.  Then she handed the phone back to my dad without my being

allowed to say to a word, which I swear was going to be kind but firm.  I kept

very calm this time. 

>  

> Before the rant, though, I first talked with my dad who asked me just what I

meant by yelling at my mom that I will never raise my kids the way she did while

I was home this summer.  I did yell.  I did not say that.  I said something

more specific about not threatening to abandon my children like she did, which

was in the context of what we were arguing about, but they both " heard " the

former statement, and refused to address or recognize the fact that the

latter episodes that I was referring to had ever even happened.  Again, I'm

the rotten ingrate who says outrageous, soul-wrenching things to her parents. 

Again, anything that I ever went through means nothing compared to what my mom

went through, and has been more than made up for anyway in my life by all the

love that we've been shown over the years. 

>  

> Honestly, the guilt creeps back in.  Will that ever stop?

>  

> I tried so hard to have a rational conversation with my dad after my mom

handed the phone off about how I didn't say what they thought they heard, how

it's just as hard for me to believe that they can't see any of the good my

sisters and I have tried to do all our lives after we show (rare) instances of

frustration over the negative environments my mom creates, how I do see and

appreciate all they've done over the years which is why I keep trying to get in

contact.  He wasn't having any of it.  He's in it thick with her.  He wants

us to throw our arms around our mom, apologize for the zillions of rotten things

we never really said, tell her how she was the best mom ever . . . There's no

gray area, not even a sliver of possibility that anything hurtful could have

happened to us that affects the relationship we have with her now.  They both

adamantly deny it.  He made it very clear that that is the situation now, and

that's how it always would be. 

> He's not interested in the books and articles about BPD we've given him. 

He's not interested in her getting any better than she is.  She's right. 

We're wrong.  End of story.  Then he hung up on me. 

>  

> Mentally ill he is.  Not a shred of rationality in either of their heads. 

I've got a handle on my mom's illness now, so it's time to start looking at my

dad.  Thanks again Katrina and Annie for all of the information.  It is always

so poignant and on-the-mark. 

[Guest guest]

I had a similar week. I just needed to know some things, like was I right about

her? and guess what? I am.

I was hoping that if I explained my current feelings about some things, that it

would be fair, because I just felt like she might just not know what the problem

is, and I used the " what if I am wrong about her and I am assuming things, and

this is really resolvable logic.

but I got the reply that I talked about in the " nada patterns " post. I let her

know that blaming me for her behavior is not ok. and guess what? she is

" heartbroken " that I am trying to get her to stop a behavior. and I thought I

picked one that would be easy for her.

I just realized today that it IS easy to change, but she would have to admit she

was wrong, for YEARS and YEARS, and she is simply unwilling to do that. she

thinks I should " forgive " her. and claims " innocence " and that she " never hurt

me intentionally " and that that makes it not reasonable for her to change

anything.

it is amazing to me that she will sacrifice her relationship with me to be

" right " what I want is " I am sorry that it hurts you when i do that, and I will

never do it again. " not " there is nothing I can do but pray for your

forgiveness " an every other guilt trip...

I feel frustrated and disappointed because I was hoping that I was wrong, but

apparently she really is crazy. I just wanted her to care about me enough to

stop something that hurts me very much, and it really should be very simple. and

I think for anyone but a BP it would be, but she has to be perfect, and

therefore there is nothing wrong with it and she will never stop.

she has chosen her stupid habit over a relationship with me. Jerk.

Meikjn

> >

> > The much anticipated (for me, at least) contact with my parents after weeks

of silence finally occurred moments ago.  What a disaster.  I'm proud of

myself for just listening to my mom's endless guilt-inducing rant of how much my

sisters and myself have been loved, and how she just can't fathom after 45 years

of unconditional love of us we turn on her and all we can talk about is how

horrible our childhoods were and what a horrible mother she was and how she had

no one to share her life with and on and on and on with random examples jumping

all over the span of time. . .  I'm as exhausted writing that as I was

listening to it.  Then she handed the phone back to my dad without my being

allowed to say to a word, which I swear was going to be kind but firm.  I kept

very calm this time. 

> >  

> > Before the rant, though, I first talked with my dad who asked me just what I

meant by yelling at my mom that I will never raise my kids the way she did while

I was home this summer.  I did yell.  I did not say that.  I said something

more specific about not threatening to abandon my children like she did, which

was in the context of what we were arguing about, but they both " heard " the

former statement, and refused to address or recognize the fact that the

latter episodes that I was referring to had ever even happened.  Again, I'm

the rotten ingrate who says outrageous, soul-wrenching things to her parents. 

Again, anything that I ever went through means nothing compared to what my mom

went through, and has been more than made up for anyway in my life by all the

love that we've been shown over the years. 

> >  

> > Honestly, the guilt creeps back in.  Will that ever stop?

> >  

> > I tried so hard to have a rational conversation with my dad after my mom

handed the phone off about how I didn't say what they thought they heard, how

it's just as hard for me to believe that they can't see any of the good my

sisters and I have tried to do all our lives after we show (rare) instances of

frustration over the negative environments my mom creates, how I do see and

appreciate all they've done over the years which is why I keep trying to get in

contact.  He wasn't having any of it.  He's in it thick with her.  He wants

us to throw our arms around our mom, apologize for the zillions of rotten things

we never really said, tell her how she was the best mom ever . . . There's no

gray area, not even a sliver of possibility that anything hurtful could have

happened to us that affects the relationship we have with her now.  They both

adamantly deny it.  He made it very clear that that is the situation now, and

that's how it always would be. 

> > He's not interested in the books and articles about BPD we've given him. 

He's not interested in her getting any better than she is.  She's right. 

We're wrong.  End of story.  Then he hung up on me. 

> >  

> > Mentally ill he is.  Not a shred of rationality in either of their heads. 

I've got a handle on my mom's illness now, so it's time to start looking at my

dad.  Thanks again Katrina and Annie for all of the information.  It is always

so poignant and on-the-mark. 

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your post. I’ve been feeling guilty lately for my NC because

I haven’t really explained much about what my nada said and did that hurt me

so much. I was thinking I should at least talk to her, but I keep thinking

about all the things that she does that hurt me and I don’t know if I can

ask her to do just one . . . even a small one. . . that would make me feel

better about the past. I know she would react like your nada and even if

she placated me during the conversation she would never actually intend to

change and resent me for trying to control her.

Thanks!

WJR

jwjrenslow@...>

_____

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of Meikjn

Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 8:02 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: How to re-connect after a blow up

I had a similar week. I just needed to know some things, like was I right

about her? and guess what? I am.

I was hoping that if I explained my current feelings about some things, that

it would be fair, because I just felt like she might just not know what the

problem is, and I used the " what if I am wrong about her and I am assuming

things, and this is really resolvable logic.

but I got the reply that I talked about in the " nada patterns " post. I let

her know that blaming me for her behavior is not ok. and guess what? she is

" heartbroken " that I am trying to get her to stop a behavior. and I thought

I picked one that would be easy for her.

I just realized today that it IS easy to change, but she would have to admit

she was wrong, for YEARS and YEARS, and she is simply unwilling to do that.

she thinks I should " forgive " her. and claims " innocence " and that she

" never hurt me intentionally " and that that makes it not reasonable for her

to change anything.

it is amazing to me that she will sacrifice her relationship with me to be

" right " what I want is " I am sorry that it hurts you when i do that, and I

will never do it again. " not " there is nothing I can do but pray for your

forgiveness " an every other guilt trip...

I feel frustrated and disappointed because I was hoping that I was wrong,

but apparently she really is crazy. I just wanted her to care about me

enough to stop something that hurts me very much, and it really should be

very simple. and I think for anyone but a BP it would be, but she has to be

perfect, and therefore there is nothing wrong with it and she will never

stop.

she has chosen her stupid habit over a relationship with me. Jerk.

Meikjn

> >

> > The much anticipated (for me, at least) contact with my parents after

weeks of silence finally occurred moments ago. What a disaster. I'm

proud of myself for just listening to my mom's endless guilt-inducing rant

of how much my sisters and myself have been loved, and how she just can't

fathom after 45 years of unconditional love of us we turn on her and all we

can talk about is how horrible our childhoods were and what a horrible

mother she was and how she had no one to share her life with and on and on

and on with random examples jumping all over the span of time. . . I'm as

exhausted writing that as I was listening to it. Then she handed the phone

back to my dad without my being allowed to say to a word, which I swear was

going to be kind but firm. I kept very calm this time.Â

> > Â

> > Before the rant, though, I first talked with my dad who asked me just

what I meant by yelling at my mom that I will never raise my kids the way

she did while I was home this summer. I did yell. I did not say that.Â

I said something more specific about not threatening to abandon my children

like she did, which was in the context of what we were arguing about, but

they both " heard " the former statement, and refused to address or recognize

the fact that the latter episodes that I was referring to had ever even

happened. Again, I'm the rotten ingrate who says outrageous,

soul-wrenching things to her parents. Again, anything that I ever went

through means nothing compared to what my mom went through, and has been

more than made up for anyway in my life by all the love that we've been

shown over the years.Â

> > Â

> > Honestly, the guilt creeps back in. Will that ever stop?

> > Â

> > I tried so hard to have a rational conversation with my dad after my mom

handed the phone off about how I didn't say what they thought they heard,

how it's just as hard for me to believe that they can't see any of the good

my sisters and IÂ have tried to do all our lives after we show (rare)

instances of frustration over the negative environments my mom creates, how

I do see and appreciate all they've done over the years which is why I keep

trying to get in contact. He wasn't having any of it. He's in it thick

with her. He wants us to throw our arms around our mom, apologize for the

zillions of rotten things we never really said, tell her how she was the

best mom ever . . . There's no gray area, not even a sliver of possibility

that anything hurtful could have happened to us that affects the

relationship we have with her now. They both adamantly deny it. He made

it very clear that that is the situation now, and that's how it always

would be.Â

> > He's not interested in the books and articles about BPD we've given

him. He's not interested in her getting any better than she is. She's

right. We're wrong. End of story. Then he hung up on me.Â

> > Â

> > Mentally ill he is. Not a shred of rationality in either of their

heads. I've got a handle on my mom's illness now, so it's time to start

looking at my dad. Thanks again Katrina and Annie for all of the

information. It is always so poignant and on-the-mark.Â

>

[Guest guest]

They're crazy. I'm sorry you have to experience this. It's not easy for

them to change, they're mentally ill. It's not you it's her.

> **

>

>

> I had a similar week. I just needed to know some things, like was I right

> about her? and guess what? I am.

>

> I was hoping that if I explained my current feelings about some things,

> that it would be fair, because I just felt like she might just not know

> what the problem is, and I used the " what if I am wrong about her and I am

> assuming things, and this is really resolvable logic.

>

> but I got the reply that I talked about in the " nada patterns " post. I let

> her know that blaming me for her behavior is not ok. and guess what? she is

> " heartbroken " that I am trying to get her to stop a behavior. and I thought

> I picked one that would be easy for her.

>

> I just realized today that it IS easy to change, but she would have to

> admit she was wrong, for YEARS and YEARS, and she is simply unwilling to do

> that. she thinks I should " forgive " her. and claims " innocence " and that

> she " never hurt me intentionally " and that that makes it not reasonable for

> her to change anything.

>

> it is amazing to me that she will sacrifice her relationship with me to be

> " right " what I want is " I am sorry that it hurts you when i do that, and I

> will never do it again. " not " there is nothing I can do but pray for your

> forgiveness " an every other guilt trip...

>

> I feel frustrated and disappointed because I was hoping that I was wrong,

> but apparently she really is crazy. I just wanted her to care about me

> enough to stop something that hurts me very much, and it really should be

> very simple. and I think for anyone but a BP it would be, but she has to be

> perfect, and therefore there is nothing wrong with it and she will never

> stop.

>

> she has chosen her stupid habit over a relationship with me. Jerk.

>

> Meikjn

>

> > >

> > > The much anticipated (for me, at least) contact with my parents after

> weeks of silence finally occurred moments ago. What a disaster. I'm

> proud of myself for just listening to my mom's endless guilt-inducing rant

> of how much my sisters and myself have been loved, and how she just can't

> fathom after 45 years of unconditional love of us we turn on her and all we

> can talk about is how horrible our childhoods were and what a horrible

> mother she was and how she had no one to share her life with and on and on

> and on with random examples jumping all over the span of time. . . I'm as

> exhausted writing that as I was listening to it. Then she handed the

> phone back to my dad without my being allowed to say to a word, which I

> swear was going to be kind but firm. I kept very calm this time.Â

> > > Â

> > > Before the rant, though, I first talked with my dad who asked me just

> what I meant by yelling at my mom that I will never raise my kids the way

> she did while I was home this summer. I did yell. I did not say that.Â

> I said something more specific about not threatening to abandon my children

> like she did, which was in the context of what we were arguing about, but

> they both " heard " the former statement, and refused to address or recognize

> the fact that the latter episodes that I was referring to had ever even

> happened. Again, I'm the rotten ingrate who says outrageous,

> soul-wrenching things to her parents. Again, anything that I ever went

> through means nothing compared to what my mom went through, and has been

> more than made up for anyway in my life by all the love that we've been

> shown over the years.Â

> > > Â

> > > Honestly, the guilt creeps back in. Will that ever stop?

> > > Â

> > > I tried so hard to have a rational conversation with my dad after my

> mom handed the phone off about how I didn't say what they thought they

> heard, how it's just as hard for me to believe that they can't see any of

> the good my sisters and IÂ have tried to do all our lives after we show

> (rare) instances of frustration over the negative environments my mom

> creates, how I do see and appreciate all they've done over the years which

> is why I keep trying to get in contact. He wasn't having any of it.Â

> He's in it thick with her. He wants us to throw our arms around our mom,

> apologize for the zillions of rotten things we never really said, tell her

> how she was the best mom ever . . . There's no gray area, not even a sliver

> of possibility that anything hurtful could have happened to us that affects

> the relationship we have with her now. They both adamantly deny it. He

> made it very clear that that is the situation now, and that's how it

> always would be.Â

> > > He's not interested in the books and articles about BPD we've given

> him. He's not interested in her getting any better than she is. She's

> right. We're wrong. End of story. Then he hung up on me.Â

> > > Â

> > > Mentally ill he is. Not a shred of rationality in either of their

> heads. I've got a handle on my mom's illness now, so it's time to start

> looking at my dad. Thanks again Katrina and Annie for all of the

> information. It is always so poignant and on-the-mark.Â

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

There are a lot of stats that psychopaths hook up with BPD people or histronics.

Psycopaths love the drama, all the ups and downs is thilling to them, and the

BPD is constantly trying to get some emotion out of the psychopath. It is a

sick dance but makes sense that only a sick person would put up with an

untreated BPD. Sane people won't want to get slapped in the face over and over

again. Psychopaths don't feel any pain when slapped in the face, so the

relationship fits.

We have a saying in AA, sick people don't like well people. So if your enemies,

or distractors, are all sickos consider yourself a person working on health!!

Give yourself a pat on the back.

> >Wow -- you are right. This sounds just like my dad, too. What

> >are the odds of having 2 parents with mental illnesses? I

> >wonder if one is really ill (my mom) and if my dad just has a

> >whole lot of learned responses to cope with her that mirror an

> >illness that he may or may not otherwise have? This is really

> >interesting food for thought. Thanks so much for sending it.

>

> --

> Katrina

>