Re: BPD Not Curable?

[Guest guest]

To my understanding only we can get better. It's a very sad problem. I

believe we all shared the dream that if we tried hard enough we could

change them and make them capable of loving us.

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Sommer gunnysacked@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and " irrational

> thought " and a description of my mom popped up: BPD). I'm reading these

> messages and am in the middle of Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always

> thought my mom could improve if she would just go to therapy, read books,

> go to college, go to church--anything. But if her issues are this disorder,

> and this disorder is hard to " cure, " will she truly always be so difficult?

> Have any of you had a parent who got better? -- " Gunnysacked "

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Millicent and Everyone....

Isn't it amazing that we are in " therapy " and they are the ones who are " sick " ?

I've been pondering this for the past few days!

-L

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 8:08 AM

Subject: Re: BPD Not Curable?

To my understanding only we can get better. It's a very sad problem. I

believe we all shared the dream that if we tried hard enough we could

change them and make them capable of loving us.

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Sommer gunnysacked@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and " irrational

> thought " and a description of my mom popped up: BPD). I'm reading these

> messages and am in the middle of Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always

> thought my mom could improve if she would just go to therapy, read books,

> go to college, go to church--anything. But if her issues are this disorder,

> and this disorder is hard to " cure, " will she truly always be so difficult?

> Have any of you had a parent who got better? -- " Gunnysacked "

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Everything I've read and seen tells me that BPD is not curable.

That does not mean it isn't treatable and that people who have

it can't get better. Unfortunately, adults who have BPD rarely

want treatment though and you can't help someone who doesn't

want to be helped. Part of having BPD involves believing that

nothing is wrong with them and that everyone else is at fault.

People who don't think anything is wrong with them don't react

well to the idea that they should go to therapy to fix what they

don't believe is wrong. When diagnosed they tend to quit seeing

the therapist or doctor who gives them the diagnosis. Treatment

for BPD teaches the people who get it how to better deal with

having it. It doesn't make it go away. If people are forced into

treatment when they're young enough, treatment can help them

form patterns of behavior that are less damaging. Our parents

are all well beyong that age.

So yes, it is likely that she will always be this difficult. The

situation can get better for you though. You can't change her

but you can change the way your react to the things she does.

Have you learned about setting boundaries yet? They can be a

tremendous help in taking control of your life and not allowing

yourself to be treated badly.

At 10:52 AM 08/26/2012 Sommer wrote:

>I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and

> " irrational thought " and a description of my mom popped up:

>BPD). I'm reading these messages and am in the middle of

>Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom could

>improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to

>college, go to church--anything. But if her issues are this

>disorder, and this disorder is hard to " cure, " will she truly

>always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent who got

>better? -- " Gunnysacked "

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Katrina,

Very beautifully said and true!

-L

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 8:24 AM

Subject: Re: BPD Not Curable?

 

,

Everything I've read and seen tells me that BPD is not curable.

That does not mean it isn't treatable and that people who have

it can't get better. Unfortunately, adults who have BPD rarely

want treatment though and you can't help someone who doesn't

want to be helped. Part of having BPD involves believing that

nothing is wrong with them and that everyone else is at fault.

People who don't think anything is wrong with them don't react

well to the idea that they should go to therapy to fix what they

don't believe is wrong. When diagnosed they tend to quit seeing

the therapist or doctor who gives them the diagnosis. Treatment

for BPD teaches the people who get it how to better deal with

having it. It doesn't make it go away. If people are forced into

treatment when they're young enough, treatment can help them

form patterns of behavior that are less damaging. Our parents

are all well beyong that age.

So yes, it is likely that she will always be this difficult. The

situation can get better for you though. You can't change her

but you can change the way your react to the things she does.

Have you learned about setting boundaries yet? They can be a

tremendous help in taking control of your life and not allowing

yourself to be treated badly.

At 10:52 AM 08/26/2012 Sommer wrote:

>I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and

> " irrational thought " and a description of my mom popped up:

>BPD). I'm reading these messages and am in the middle of

>Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom could

>improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to

>college, go to church--anything. But if her issues are this

>disorder, and this disorder is hard to " cure, " will she truly

>always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent who got

>better? -- " Gunnysacked "

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

I agree! A succinct, well-put summary, in my opinion.

I would add that bpd, like other illnesses and conditions, can occur in a

spectrum of severity. Some individuals are only mildly to moderately affected,

while others with bpd are severely affected.

A few of those who are mildly to moderately affected by personality disorder

somehow manage to realize that they are doing real damage to their children,

their spouse, friends and work relationships and will seek out therapy for

themselves. But those individuals seem to be very, very rare.

Some of us KOs (adult Kids Of bpd parents) become infested with " bpd fleas " or

negative, counterproductive, destructive bpd-like behaviors, due to having been

raised by someone with bpd, but because our brains don't have that bpd

mis-wiring, and because we do have the ability to feel empathy, we KOs are more

likely to *notice*, *care*, feel *distress* and *remorse* that our behaviors are

damaging to our children, friends, etc.. KOs with " fleas " are more likely to

want to change ourselves, seek therapy on our own, and stick to it.

So, yes: bottom line is that a person has to WANT to change themselves before

there is a possibility of that happening; its sort of similar to alcoholism in

that way. An alcoholic has to WANT very much to stop drinking, and they can

stop with great effort and support, but they never consider themselves to be

" cured " , just abstaining.

-Annie

> >I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and

> > " irrational thought " and a description of my mom popped up:

> >BPD). I'm reading these messages and am in the middle of

> >Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom could

> >improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to

> >college, go to church--anything. But if her issues are this

> >disorder, and this disorder is hard to " cure, " will she truly

> >always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent who got

> >better? -- " Gunnysacked "

>

> --

> Katrina

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

In regard to heredity vs. Environment, do any of you have proof that your nadas

were or were not abused, especially sexually as children?

I've read where bpd's origin is unclear and i grapple w/ feeling badly that nada

suffered before she turned the suffering on us.

Or, was she just born a miserable pain in the arse? Leah, that joke is for you!

PS she (born 1940) turned on her brother (born 1935) for first time in 2006 when

my dad was terminally ill. Uncle apologized to me next day " I thought you've

been making this up for 35 years " . Then he said " come to think of it, she was

challenging around age 15 " . If her dad hadn't died when she was 14, I'd say what

15 year old isn't difficult??

And then there are the comments she has let slip about her brothers tickling her

in a locked closet or an uncle who touched her chest at 15. When she told an

adult, the response was " well what did you do to provoke it? " (Sounds like that

sex and the city episode!) Are these stories real or revisionist history? ??

Thx!

Katrina kk1raven@...> wrote:

>,

>Everything I've read and seen tells me that BPD is not curable.

>That does not mean it isn't treatable and that people who have

>it can't get better. Unfortunately, adults who have BPD rarely

>want treatment though and you can't help someone who doesn't

>want to be helped. Part of having BPD involves believing that

>nothing is wrong with them and that everyone else is at fault.

>People who don't think anything is wrong with them don't react

>well to the idea that they should go to therapy to fix what they

>don't believe is wrong. When diagnosed they tend to quit seeing

>the therapist or doctor who gives them the diagnosis. Treatment

>for BPD teaches the people who get it how to better deal with

>having it. It doesn't make it go away. If people are forced into

>treatment when they're young enough, treatment can help them

>form patterns of behavior that are less damaging. Our parents

>are all well beyong that age.

>

>So yes, it is likely that she will always be this difficult. The

>situation can get better for you though. You can't change her

>but you can change the way your react to the things she does.

>Have you learned about setting boundaries yet? They can be a

>tremendous help in taking control of your life and not allowing

>yourself to be treated badly.

>

>

>At 10:52 AM 08/26/2012 Sommer wrote:

>>I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and

>> " irrational thought " and a description of my mom popped up:

>>BPD). I'm reading these messages and am in the middle of

>>Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom could

>>improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to

>>college, go to church--anything. But if her issues are this

>>disorder, and this disorder is hard to " cure, " will she truly

>>always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent who got

>>better? -- " Gunnysacked "

>

>--

>Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Nightsquirell - such a tangled web we weave, eh?

My nada was born in 1929 - her parents died when she was 7, and she was shipped

off to different relatives a number of times until she hit 14...a very unstable

foundation, I'm sure. This is where the severe fear of abandonment is rooted

with her - but she had a loving husband that she was married to for 48

years...and me - only kid. Now that I have been educated on bpd (found out

about this 3 months ago) , I recall bpd behavior since I was a teenager trying

to individuate....My sweet but enabling dad died 8 years ago and since she has

slipped way into severe bpd behavior.

My T said she suspects there was abuse but nada swears (when lucid) that there

wasn't, and in clear moments, she doesn't know why she gets so sad when talking

about her past. She goes very directly to large sobbing tears when even

mentioning her parents, or grandparents or siblings.....but there are tons of

folks that have dealt with huge adversities, that don't have this disorder. And

as I am finding out, lots of adolescents that have bpd that come from very

stable loving homes. So who knows, I guess.

> Hi all,

>

> In regard to heredity vs. Environment, do any of you have proof that your

nadas were or were not abused, especially sexually as children?

>

> I've read where bpd's origin is unclear and i grapple w/ feeling badly that

nada suffered before she turned the suffering on us.

>

> Or, was she just born a miserable pain in the arse? Leah, that joke is for

you!

>

> PS she (born 1940) turned on her brother (born 1935) for first time in 2006

when my dad was terminally ill. Uncle apologized to me next day " I thought

you've been making this up for 35 years " . Then he said " come to think of it, she

was challenging around age 15 " . If her dad hadn't died when she was 14, I'd say

what 15 year old isn't difficult??

>

> And then there are the comments she has let slip about her brothers tickling

her in a locked closet or an uncle who touched her chest at 15. When she told an

adult, the response was " well what did you do to provoke it? " (Sounds like that

sex and the city episode!) Are these stories real or revisionist history? ??

> Thx!

>

> Katrina kk1raven@...> wrote:

>

> >,

> >Everything I've read and seen tells me that BPD is not curable.

> >That does not mean it isn't treatable and that people who have

> >it can't get better. Unfortunately, adults who have BPD rarely

> >want treatment though and you can't help someone who doesn't

> >want to be helped. Part of having BPD involves believing that

> >nothing is wrong with them and that everyone else is at fault.

> >People who don't think anything is wrong with them don't react

> >well to the idea that they should go to therapy to fix what they

> >don't believe is wrong. When diagnosed they tend to quit seeing

> >the therapist or doctor who gives them the diagnosis. Treatment

> >for BPD teaches the people who get it how to better deal with

> >having it. It doesn't make it go away. If people are forced into

> >treatment when they're young enough, treatment can help them

> >form patterns of behavior that are less damaging. Our parents

> >are all well beyong that age.

> >

> >So yes, it is likely that she will always be this difficult. The

> >situation can get better for you though. You can't change her

> >but you can change the way your react to the things she does.

> >Have you learned about setting boundaries yet? They can be a

> >tremendous help in taking control of your life and not allowing

> >yourself to be treated badly.

> >

> >

> >At 10:52 AM 08/26/2012 Sommer wrote:

> >>I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and

> >> " irrational thought " and a description of my mom popped up:

> >>BPD). I'm reading these messages and am in the middle of

> >>Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom could

> >>improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to

> >>college, go to church--anything. But if her issues are this

> >>disorder, and this disorder is hard to " cure, " will she truly

> >>always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent who got

> >>better? -- " Gunnysacked "

> >

> >--

> >Katrina

> >

>

lesley anton handmade ceramic lighting

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cell

[Guest guest]

From what I've read, there is evidence that BPD is at least

partially genetic. My personal opinion is that it is caused by a

combination of genes and experience with some people being at

either extreme of the two possible causes but most being

somewhere in the middle. I think it is common for people with

BPD to think they were abused as children, whether or not they

were actually abused. When you see something as harmless as

someone having a different opinion about which color is better

as being a personal attack, it is easy to feel like you're being

abused on a regular basis when the reality is that your parents

are doing what parents should do. Parents have to say " no " a lot

and being told " no " is very upsetting for someone with BPD.

There is plenty of real abuse in the backgrounds of some people

with BPD, probably more than the average amount. If BPD runs in

a family, there is likely to be abuse of some sort going on

across generations so even a mild genetic susceptibility could

end up being triggered over and over again in the same family.

It is also worth noting that back when I first found out about

BPD, the idea that BPD was related to a parent dying while the

child was growing up seemed rather common. I don't see that

mentioned so much now, but it does fit with my nada's

experience.

I can't prove that my nada wasn't abused but I can't find any

evidence that she was. She's never claimed to have been abused

although she often referred to her own mother as a " fat b*tch "

before she had the audacity to die on my nada's birthday a

number of years ago. (She doesn't say that kind of thing any

more. Apparently hating her dead mother doesn't fit with the

image she wants to present.) Her father died when she was about

13 and they lived in poverty after that. I'm sure both of those

things were traumatic for her but the accounts I've heard from

others indicate to me that she was already engaging in BPD-like

behavior even before her father's death. One of my uncles told

me that she tried to control the family with her tantrums. His

view may not be unbiased either, but it fits with other stuff

I've heard.

Stories about being tickled or even about being touched may or

may not be an indication that your nada was abused. The

incidents could have been totally innocent activities. Tickling

is certainly common among siblings in childhood and a touch to

the chest isn't necessarily a groping. I never believe any of my

nada's stories about things that happened years ago without

verification. Most of them do not match with other evidence and

stories that other, more sane, people tell. Unless you have

another source, you're probably not going to be able to sort out

what is true and what is revisionist history on her part.

Whether or not she was abused, she's mentally ill and that's not

something she chose.

At 02:26 PM 08/26/2012 Nightsquirrel wrote:

>Hi all,

>

>In regard to heredity vs. Environment, do any of you have

>proof that your nadas were or were not abused,

>especially sexually as children?

>

>I've read where bpd's origin is unclear and i grapple w/

>feeling badly that nada suffered before she turned the

>suffering on us.

>

>Or, was she just born a miserable pain in the arse? Leah, that

>joke is for you!

>

>PS she (born 1940) turned on her brother (born 1935) for first

>time in 2006 when my dad was terminally ill. Uncle apologized

>to me next day " I thought you've been making this up for 35

>years " . Then he said " come to think of it, she was challenging

>around age 15 " . If her dad hadn't died when she was 14, I'd say

>what 15 year old isn't difficult??

>

>And then there are the comments she has let slip about her

>brothers tickling her in a locked closet or an uncle who

>touched her chest at 15. When she told an adult, the response

>was " well what did you do to provoke it? " (Sounds like that sex

>and the city episode!) Are these stories real or revisionist

>history? ??

>Thx!

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Regarding what causes bpd, here is what the NIMH website has to say about it:

" Researchers today don't know what causes borderline personality disorder.

There are many theories, however, about the possible causes of borderline

personality disorder.

Most professionals subscribe to a biopsychosocial model of causation — that is,

the causes of are likely due to biological and genetic factors, social factors

(such as how a person interacts in their early development with their family and

friends and other children), and psychological factors (the individual's

personality and temperament, shaped by their environment and learned coping

skills to deal with stress). This suggests that no single factor is responsible

— rather, it is the complex and likely intertwined nature of all three factors

that are important.

If a person has this personality disorder, research suggests that there is a

slightly increased risk for this disorder to be " passed down " to their

children. "

My own mother/nada was one of those who had a stable two-parent home growing up;

she was the middle of three girls. Neither of my mother's two sisters

corroborate my mother's version of their childhood. My mother told Sister and

me rather often that her father had a terrible temper and would beat her and her

sisters frequently, and that her mother rejected her, didn't love her and

preferred her older sister. My mother loathed her older sister and was mean to

her.

My own experiences with my grandparents and aunts was that they were all just...

nice. They were consistently, reliably kind, loving, emotionally stable, and

just...sweet people. Over decades, the HUGE disconnect between my mother's

claims RE her family of origin and my own observations and experiences of them,

became harder and harder to reconcile. It just didn't add up.

(Oddly, my mother was obsessed with us spending every other Sunday at her

parent's home despite telling us how horrible they'd been to her as a child!)

And nobody, and I mean NOBODY in my mother's entire extended family EVER

triggered into red-faced screaming rages, hit people, made false accusations, or

became hysterical like my mother did; she was an anomaly. In retrospect I can

see that my mother's parents and siblings all walked on eggshells around her; I

think they were as afraid of her rages as my dad, Sister and I were.

Within the last 10 years or so of my nada's life (she died last Christmas) I

began to learn from her in bits and pieces that she also had similar bizarre,

untrue, paranoid, fixed delusional beliefs about me starting when I was born

(nada was convinced that I hated her and rejected her as a mother when I was an

infant, and by the time I was 3 she had " given up on having a normal

mother/daughter relationship " with me) ; similar delusions about Sister (nada

was convinced that my Sister was a chronic liar) and delusions about our dad

(nada was convinced that dad was constantly having affairs and sexual trysts

with her neighbors and friends behind her back), and these paranoid delusions

were unshakable.

One of the diagnostic traits of bpd is " transient paranoid ideation and

delusional thinking, brought on by stress " . Well, my nada either had stress ALL

THE TIME resulting in her chronic paranoia and delusional thinking, or she had a

co-morbid delusional disorder or something.

But my nada is one of those who did *not* suffer a hideous emotionally ,

physically or sexually abusive childhood, and she wasn't emotionally neglected

either; instead she was the " family bully " , and apparently was the only person

in her entire extended family who had a personality disorder (and probably

co-morbid mental disorders as well.)

Maybe she fell on her head as a toddler; who knows? Brain injury can cause

really similar symptoms and behaviors to bpd. Maybe my mother had an

undiagnosed, untreated brain trauma? Or maybe she just had really bad luck on

her spin of the genetic double-roulette-wheel and wound up with pairs of

recessive " predisposed to bpd " genes from both parents? Now that she is

deceased, we'll never know.

-Annie

>

> Hi Nightsquirell - such a tangled web we weave, eh?

>

> My nada was born in 1929 - her parents died when she was 7, and she was

shipped off to different relatives a number of times until she hit 14...a very

unstable foundation, I'm sure. This is where the severe fear of abandonment is

rooted with her - but she had a loving husband that she was married to for 48

years...and me - only kid. Now that I have been educated on bpd (found out

about this 3 months ago) , I recall bpd behavior since I was a teenager trying

to individuate....My sweet but enabling dad died 8 years ago and since she has

slipped way into severe bpd behavior.

> My T said she suspects there was abuse but nada swears (when lucid) that there

wasn't, and in clear moments, she doesn't know why she gets so sad when talking

about her past. She goes very directly to large sobbing tears when even

mentioning her parents, or grandparents or siblings.....but there are tons of

folks that have dealt with huge adversities, that don't have this disorder. And

as I am finding out, lots of adolescents that have bpd that come from very

stable loving homes. So who knows, I guess.

[Guest guest]

I don't know about sexual abuse, but my mother was adopted by a woman who

constantly told her she wished she wouldn't have adopted her--a double

whammy.  

 

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 11:26 AM

Subject: Re: BPD Not Curable?

 

Hi all,

In regard to heredity vs. Environment, do any of you have proof that your nadas

were or were not abused, especially sexually as children?

I've read where bpd's origin is unclear and i grapple w/ feeling badly that nada

suffered before she turned the suffering on us.

Or, was she just born a miserable pain in the arse? Leah, that joke is for you!

PS she (born 1940) turned on her brother (born 1935) for first time in 2006 when

my dad was terminally ill. Uncle apologized to me next day " I thought you've

been making this up for 35 years " . Then he said " come to think of it, she was

challenging around age 15 " . If her dad hadn't died when she was 14, I'd say what

15 year old isn't difficult??

And then there are the comments she has let slip about her brothers tickling her

in a locked closet or an uncle who touched her chest at 15. When she told an

adult, the response was " well what did you do to provoke it? " (Sounds like that

sex and the city episode!) Are these stories real or revisionist history? ??

Thx!

Katrina wrote:

>,

>Everything I've read and seen tells me that BPD is not curable.

>That does not mean it isn't treatable and that people who have

>it can't get better. Unfortunately, adults who have BPD rarely

>want treatment though and you can't help someone who doesn't

>want to be helped. Part of having BPD involves believing that

>nothing is wrong with them and that everyone else is at fault.

>People who don't think anything is wrong with them don't react

>well to the idea that they should go to therapy to fix what they

>don't believe is wrong. When diagnosed they tend to quit seeing

>the therapist or doctor who gives them the diagnosis. Treatment

>for BPD teaches the people who get it how to better deal with

>having it. It doesn't make it go away. If people are forced into

>treatment when they're young enough, treatment can help them

>form patterns of behavior that are less damaging. Our parents

>are all well beyong that age.

>

>So yes, it is likely that she will always be this difficult. The

>situation can get better for you though. You can't change her

>but you can change the way your react to the things she does.

>Have you learned about setting boundaries yet? They can be a

>tremendous help in taking control of your life and not allowing

>yourself to be treated badly.

>

>

>At 10:52 AM 08/26/2012 Sommer wrote:

>>I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and

>> " irrational thought " and a description of my mom popped up:

>>BPD). I'm reading these messages and am in the middle of

>>Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom could

>>improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to

>>college, go to church--anything. But if her issues are this

>>disorder, and this disorder is hard to " cure, " will she truly

>>always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent who got

>>better? -- " Gunnysacked "

>

>--

>Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

I'm at the part of the book where I did an exercise of grieving over a

figurative death of my mother. It makes sense now. If she's not going to ever

turn into my " ideal mom, " then I do need to let that dream go and accept the

situation for what it is. I really need to get to the part about setting

boundaries. I haven't spoken to her since I've been learning about BPD. I'm

already feeling less anxious about speaking with her because of the book and

the discussions on this group.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 8:24 AM

Subject: Re: BPD Not Curable?

 

,

Everything I've read and seen tells me that BPD is not curable.

That does not mean it isn't treatable and that people who have

it can't get better. Unfortunately, adults who have BPD rarely

want treatment though and you can't help someone who doesn't

want to be helped. Part of having BPD involves believing that

nothing is wrong with them and that everyone else is at fault.

People who don't think anything is wrong with them don't react

well to the idea that they should go to therapy to fix what they

don't believe is wrong. When diagnosed they tend to quit seeing

the therapist or doctor who gives them the diagnosis. Treatment

for BPD teaches the people who get it how to better deal with

having it. It doesn't make it go away. If people are forced into

treatment when they're young enough, treatment can help them

form patterns of behavior that are less damaging. Our parents

are all well beyong that age.

So yes, it is likely that she will always be this difficult. The

situation can get better for you though. You can't change her

but you can change the way your react to the things she does.

Have you learned about setting boundaries yet? They can be a

tremendous help in taking control of your life and not allowing

yourself to be treated badly.

At 10:52 AM 08/26/2012 Sommer wrote:

>I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and

> " irrational thought " and a description of my mom popped up:

>BPD). I'm reading these messages and am in the middle of

>Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom could

>improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to

>college, go to church--anything. But if her issues are this

>disorder, and this disorder is hard to " cure, " will she truly

>always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent who got

>better? -- " Gunnysacked "

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

I also liked that analogy that I think, you, Annie have used before about how

the BPD doesn't have any emotional skin and that would lead totally normal

upbringing to be perceived as abusive. I always enjoy a good analogy. C

> >

> > Hi Nightsquirell - such a tangled web we weave, eh?

> >

> > My nada was born in 1929 - her parents died when she was 7, and she was

shipped off to different relatives a number of times until she hit 14...a very

unstable foundation, I'm sure. This is where the severe fear of abandonment is

rooted with her - but she had a loving husband that she was married to for 48

years...and me - only kid. Now that I have been educated on bpd (found out

about this 3 months ago) , I recall bpd behavior since I was a teenager trying

to individuate....My sweet but enabling dad died 8 years ago and since she has

slipped way into severe bpd behavior.

> > My T said she suspects there was abuse but nada swears (when lucid) that

there wasn't, and in clear moments, she doesn't know why she gets so sad when

talking about her past. She goes very directly to large sobbing tears when even

mentioning her parents, or grandparents or siblings.....but there are tons of

folks that have dealt with huge adversities, that don't have this disorder. And

as I am finding out, lots of adolescents that have bpd that come from very

stable loving homes. So who knows, I guess.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, that particular analogy: that those with bpd are born with " no emotional

skin " was created by Dr. Marsha Linehan, the psychologist who developed

dialectical behavioral therapy to help those with bpd who are highly suicidal,

and who " came out " as bpd herself, recently. That analogy really gets across

the idea; even the slightest touch can be excruciatingly painful for the burn

victim, and so those with bpd are similarly hyper-super-sensitive and deeply

emotionally hurt by words or situations that non-pd people would consider simply

mildly annoying.

My bpd/npd mother (my " nada " ) had a tendency to interpret simply neutral

information as negative. I could be reading a book or watching TV with a blank

expression on my face, and my nada would announce, " You look really pissed off

at me, what are you so damned angry at ME about? " That is an example, I think,

of " projecting " : I was like a blank movie screen, and she'd project *her own*

negative, unwanted thoughts and feelings about me, onto me.

My nada would become genuinely upset and angry if I didn't agree with her about

even really trivial things, like needing to wear a sweater *long after I'd

reached adulthood.*

If she was chilly and wanted to wear a sweater, then I'd better by God want to

wear one too, or risk a meltdown from nada. She was that controlling and that

uber-hypersensitive, if you can believe it.

-Annie

> > >

> > > Hi Nightsquirell - such a tangled web we weave, eh?

> > >

> > > My nada was born in 1929 - her parents died when she was 7, and she was

shipped off to different relatives a number of times until she hit 14...a very

unstable foundation, I'm sure. This is where the severe fear of abandonment is

rooted with her - but she had a loving husband that she was married to for 48

years...and me - only kid. Now that I have been educated on bpd (found out

about this 3 months ago) , I recall bpd behavior since I was a teenager trying

to individuate....My sweet but enabling dad died 8 years ago and since she has

slipped way into severe bpd behavior.

> > > My T said she suspects there was abuse but nada swears (when lucid) that

there wasn't, and in clear moments, she doesn't know why she gets so sad when

talking about her past. She goes very directly to large sobbing tears when even

mentioning her parents, or grandparents or siblings.....but there are tons of

folks that have dealt with huge adversities, that don't have this disorder. And

as I am finding out, lots of adolescents that have bpd that come from very

stable loving homes. So who knows, I guess.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I have three recovery buddies, all women, that have gotten help with their BPD

and living great lives. They manage their symptoms well and are very aware of

their BPD diagnosis. I am from the State of Florida and not far from where I

live is a doctor who treats BPD and he has had quite a successful practice doing

so. In fact people from all over the world come to him for help and get on with

living their lives. So there are people that get help and move on in life. I

think part of the reason the numbers are so low in recovery of this is that many

of the treatments, and even the diagnosis, are recent discoveries. Many BPD

folks are mis-labeled Bipolar too. We are just starting to learn and treat this

disorder in recent years. I am a recovered alcoholic and Carl Jung use to say

alkies were hopeless, there was no cure for us. Look at all the people NOW that

have proved his professional comments wrong and are living great sober lives!!

I don't think it is wise to concentrate on the BPD getting well or the causes of

it in their lives. We need to recover regardless of what the BPD does. I don't

think I will ever figure out the whys in my deceased BPD mother or my BPD

stepdaughter. ly, that is their job. I have enough on my plate working on

my own issues, some related to BPD and some are not related to BPD in my life.

I think that my knowing there is help out there for BPD does make me less

manipulated by the symptoms of BPD. I don't feel that our BPD has an excuse to

act in hurtful ways towards us. She is responsible for her behavior and can get

help if she wants it. I don't feel that guilty anymore about her. We have in

fact encouraged her to get help when she has talked about going to therapy. I

would encourage anybody with BPD to go to therapy if they started to express

that something was wrong or they had problems in the family. In fact I think

that family counseling with a professional well versed in BPD would be very

helpful. We had a great therapist that has helped my husband and myself with

BPD issues. Course our BPD hates that we no longer are in the dark and know what

is going on. We have changed and she doesn't like it. Oh well......Sometimes

when one in the family changes then others will follow in getting help.

>

> I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and " irrational thought "

and a description of my mom popped up: BPD). I'm reading these messages and am

in the middle of Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom could

improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to college, go to

church--anything. But if her issues are this disorder, and this disorder is hard

to " cure, " will she truly always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent

who got better? -- " Gunnysacked "

>

>

[Guest guest]

I definitely agree with this last post. The biggest reason why there's hope for

a BPD is because they realize something is wrong with them. Which means there

is a crack in that barricade of denial they function within. If they are at

least willing to contemplate they may have a problem, there is hope.

But denial is the basis of BPD. My mother has NEVER been able to see she has a

problem (except an " ungrateful, selfish daughter " ...who is me in her eyes).

My therapist helped me by discussing the freedom of hopelessness. To not hope

for someone to change is incredibly liberating (once you work through the grief

of it). Because you finally realize you don't need others to change in order for

you to live to the fullest.

You're starting a tough road, but I'm proud of you for taking the first steps to

discovering the truth about your situation. Just keep going step-by-step and

you'll be able to have peace in your life, with or without your mother's

recovery.

Take care dear.

> >

> > I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and " irrational thought "

and a description of my mom popped up: BPD). I'm reading these messages and am

in the middle of Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom could

improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to college, go to

church--anything. But if her issues are this disorder, and this disorder is hard

to " cure, " will she truly always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent

who got better? -- " Gunnysacked "

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

According to Nada, she was 'touched' by somebody once and that it was 'no big

deal.' What she makes into a big deal is what she sees as her past, she was born

in 1948, the second child and only daughter. In pictures of the family she

'sees' that they look at her brother and not at her, she 'sees' that her mom

just wants to get away from her. She tells stories about neglect, how she was

pushed away from her dad by her mom, and how 'jealous her mom was of her'. She

was a preemie, by the way, and her mom wasn't allowed to hold her for a time,

and was busy with a toddler at home. Grandma didn't drive, and Grandpa was a

truck driver, so when he was on the road, it was difficult for Grandma to get to

the hospital. Nada of course, blames everything that ever went wrong in her life

on this 'terrible' childhood.......maybe this is why she's bpd.....I dunno!

> >>I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and

> >> " irrational thought " and a description of my mom popped up:

> >>BPD). I'm reading these messages and am in the middle of

> >>Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom could

> >>improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to

> >>college, go to church--anything. But if her issues are this

> >>disorder, and this disorder is hard to " cure, " will she truly

> >>always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent who got

> >>better? -- " Gunnysacked "

> >

> >--

> >Katrina

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ah, yes, I can remember complaining to my T back then that nada wanted me to

even think and believe the same as her. Like so many of us, I wasn't allowed to

have my own thoughts, opinions, beliefs or tastes if they didn't line up with

hers. The I'm cold, YOU put on a sweater conversation was had a time or two as

well. *sigh*

C

>

> Yes, that particular analogy: that those with bpd are born with " no emotional

skin " was created by Dr. Marsha Linehan, the psychologist who developed

dialectical behavioral therapy to help those with bpd who are highly suicidal,

and who " came out " as bpd herself, recently. That analogy really gets across

the idea; even the slightest touch can be excruciatingly painful for the burn

victim, and so those with bpd are similarly hyper-super-sensitive and deeply

emotionally hurt by words or situations that non-pd people would consider simply

mildly annoying.

>

> My bpd/npd mother (my " nada " ) had a tendency to interpret simply neutral

information as negative. I could be reading a book or watching TV with a blank

expression on my face, and my nada would announce, " You look really pissed off

at me, what are you so damned angry at ME about? " That is an example, I think,

of " projecting " : I was like a blank movie screen, and she'd project *her own*

negative, unwanted thoughts and feelings about me, onto me.

>

> My nada would become genuinely upset and angry if I didn't agree with her

about even really trivial things, like needing to wear a sweater *long after I'd

reached adulthood.*

> If she was chilly and wanted to wear a sweater, then I'd better by God want to

wear one too, or risk a meltdown from nada. She was that controlling and that

uber-hypersensitive, if you can believe it.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

Wow. Now I wonder if perhaps my grandmother never said those things to my mom.

Just recently my mom was so very upset because she said that my grandmother

had more pictures of my aunt's family than of hers in a book shelf. I said that

we just don't take as many professional photos of our kids than my cousin does,

but that did not help her feel better.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 6:01 AM

Subject: Re: BPD Not Curable?

 

According to Nada, she was 'touched' by somebody once and that it was 'no big

deal.' What she makes into a big deal is what she sees as her past, she was born

in 1948, the second child and only daughter. In pictures of the family she

'sees' that they look at her brother and not at her, she 'sees' that her mom

just wants to get away from her. She tells stories about neglect, how she was

pushed away from her dad by her mom, and how 'jealous her mom was of her'. She

was a preemie, by the way, and her mom wasn't allowed to hold her for a time,

and was busy with a toddler at home. Grandma didn't drive, and Grandpa was a

truck driver, so when he was on the road, it was difficult for Grandma to get to

the hospital. Nada of course, blames everything that ever went wrong in her life

on this 'terrible' childhood.......maybe this is why she's bpd.....I dunno!

> >>I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and

> >> " irrational thought " and a description of my mom popped up:

> >>BPD). I'm reading these messages and am in the middle of

> >>Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom could

> >>improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to

> >>college, go to church--anything. But if her issues are this

> >>disorder, and this disorder is hard to " cure, " will she truly

> >>always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent who got

> >>better? -- " Gunnysacked "

> >

> >--

> >Katrina

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You have underlined the key point, tomandfran: the individual alcoholic can

become sober and stay sober IF they want to strongly enough, and the person with

bpd symptoms or traits (or the KO with " fleas " ) can learn to self-monitor and

modify their negative, counter-productive way of thinking, feeling and treating

others, IF they want to change themselves strongly enough.

But it takes *wanting to change oneself*. That is the key point.

My nada was never able to reach that crucial point of understanding and

accepting that there were things about herself (her perceptions, thoughts,

feelings, reactions, behaviors) that needed changing.

She was ultimately unable to achieve any level of personal insight or accept any

personal responsibility for her own words and actions. For my nada, all her

problems originated outside her own self, all her problems were due to other

people; she herself was the perpetual innocent victim. She never did or said

anything wrong. (That's called an " ego syntonic " state: the individual with the

disorder is not distressed by it. That's one of the key traits or symptoms of

personality disorder.)

Of course, my own individual situation is anecdotal, but in our case, my Sister

and I at one point both went No Contact with our nada and gave her an ultimatum:

we would consider resuming contact with her if she went in for therapy; and

nada actually did go!

Nada even managed to change her behaviors for a brief while; she stopped being

so critical and demanding of Sister and was pleasant to her. Sister cried with

happiness when she told me about it; Sister said it was kind of like a small

miracle.

But it was a short-lived change. After a few weeks, nada triggered into a truly

spectacular rage-tantrum-meltdown at Sister, screaming that there was nothing

wrong with her (with herself, with nada), that she had always been the perfect

mother to us, that she only went into therapy because we forced her to, that we

were the hateful, crazy ones and we had lied to him about her, and she went to

see the psychologist only to learn how to deal with us, and she now hated him

and refused to go any more!

So, I think its wonderful when those with bpd traits and symptoms can actually

achieve that breakthrough of realization that there might be something wrong

inside their own mind, that they're hurting those who want to love them, and

that with the ability and willingness to *own* their own negative " stuff " comes

the potential to change it.

THAT is the paradigm-shift in thinking that gives hope to those with bpd.

In exactly the same manner, the *opposite* realization: " Its not me: I didn't

cause my bpd mother to be like she is. I can't control her, I can't change her,

and I can't cure her. The way she treats me is not my fault. Its NOT my job to

manage my mother's feelings for her (I'm not her mommy, I'm not her therapist,

I'm not her spouse, I'm not her slave) and I don't deserve to be treated

abusively " is the paradigm-shift in thinking that gives hope to the *adult

children of bpd parents*.

-Annie

> >

> > I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and " irrational thought "

and a description of my mom popped up: BPD). I'm reading these messages and am

in the middle of Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom could

improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to college, go to

church--anything. But if her issues are this disorder, and this disorder is hard

to " cure, " will she truly always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent

who got better? -- " Gunnysacked "

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Gunny,

I did that entire book (Surviving a BP), and it is WELL worth the work, good on

you!

I don't believe there is any cure, and my therapist is quite adamant on this

point- Nada (My BPDMom) will never ever change.

Luckily for me, in my case, Nada received several rounds of intensive in-patient

treatment for about 8 years thanks to dozens of unsuccessful suicide attempts on

her part. The treatment (she underwent DBT- dialectical behavioral therapy) did

help a lot, I have to admit. For example, she had a very severe eating disorder

for a number of years, and she has had that under control for quite some time

now with minor relapses. She is much more relatable to people who are more

normal, many of her current friends do not even have mental illnesses. She is

also considerably nicer to me, I must admit. Don't get me wrong, she still says

and does numerous hurtful things, but she is not nearly as vicious as she was

about 10 years ago (prior to DBT).

Her delusions are still a huge part of her day-to-day life, and she does not

work. I'm pretty sure she pays her bills by using her various boyfriends as a

type of income source, but I don't ask.

The problem is, if your BPDMom does not have a Dx, and isn't forced to do so by

a medical professional as a result of either homicidal or suicidal actions, she

likely never will, and thus will never get treatment. I reeeaaally hope for you

that she does, but be prepared that she may not.

Good luck with your reading!

-Jets

>

> I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and " irrational thought "

and a description of my mom popped up: BPD). I'm reading these messages and am

in the middle of Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom could

improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to college, go to

church--anything. But if her issues are this disorder, and this disorder is hard

to " cure, " will she truly always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent

who got better? -- " Gunnysacked "

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Night Squirrel,

The VAST majority of Nada's stories in my case change and evolve depending on

her needs. However, two stories that have never changed are a) her own mother

telling her that she doesn't love her (which I have a difficult time

sympathising with, as nada was so cruel to me, however, I imagine this affected

her dramatically) and how she was sexually abused by two individuals around

the same time.

Is it possible that she invented these two stories to justify her own horrid

behavior to her psychiatrist? Absolutely. It's not only possible, but quite

likely that she read about BPD following her dx and just made up a new past to

fit the diagnosis.

I do think the genetic component was a huge factor for her, as I believe her

mother had it. She says terrible things about my grandfather, but he is an

absolutely wonderful and loving man, and has done nothing but dump money and

time into her only to get hateful letters and rages back. Since he mainly

raised her, and my BPDgrandma was never around, I think environment was only a

minor factor.

Of course, this terrifies me, because I don't want to have it, but at this point

in my life, I'm pretty sure that I don't.

Interesting points though. My husband who knows about nada's exaggerations and

lies often questions her suggestion that she was sexually abused. I'm not sure,

and I'm not sure it matters. I think if she believes she was, that's probably

just as damaging as if she were (since for her, saying it happened makes her

feel as though it did). What is very compelling is that she has never tried

bringing any of the people she has accused of these things to justice.

Particularly, her most recent accusation, which is someone who is known in our

community. That to me is very suspicious. Who knows???

-Jets

> >>I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and

> >> " irrational thought " and a description of my mom popped up:

> >>BPD). I'm reading these messages and am in the middle of

> >>Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom could

> >>improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to

> >>college, go to church--anything. But if her issues are this

> >>disorder, and this disorder is hard to " cure, " will she truly

> >>always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent who got

> >>better? -- " Gunnysacked "

> >

> >--

> >Katrina

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I think you bring up an important point here. Our nadas don't

necessarily suffer only from one or more personality disorders.

They can suffer from a variety of other issues as well, from

eating disorders to depression to bipolar disorder or worse.

Those other problems may be far more treatable than the BPD.

At 08:15 PM 08/27/2012 jetshockeylove wrote:

>Hi Gunny,

>

>I did that entire book (Surviving a BP), and it is WELL worth

>the work, good on you!

>

>I don't believe there is any cure, and my therapist is quite

>adamant on this point- Nada (My BPDMom) will never ever

>change.

>

>Luckily for me, in my case, Nada received several rounds of

>intensive in-patient treatment for about 8 years thanks to

>dozens of unsuccessful suicide attempts on her part. The

>treatment (she underwent DBT- dialectical behavioral therapy)

>did help a lot, I have to admit. For example, she had a very

>severe eating disorder for a number of years, and she has had

>that under control for quite some time now with minor

>relapses. She is much more relatable to people who are more

>normal, many of her current friends do not even have mental

>illnesses. She is also considerably nicer to me, I must

>admit. Don't get me wrong, she still says and does numerous

>hurtful things, but she is not nearly as vicious as she was

>about 10 years ago (prior to DBT).

>

>Her delusions are still a huge part of her day-to-day life, and

>she does not work. I'm pretty sure she pays her bills by using

>her various boyfriends as a type of income source, but I don't

>ask.

>

>The problem is, if your BPDMom does not have a Dx, and isn't

>forced to do so by a medical professional as a result of either

>homicidal or suicidal actions, she likely never will, and thus

>will never get treatment. I reeeaaally hope for you that she

>does, but be prepared that she may not.

>

>Good luck with your reading!

>

>-Jets

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree. My own mother has depression, and she was anorexic, even into her

80s. She may still be for all I know, but I'm not responsible for her diet.

She was prescribed antidepressants at one point and they improved her attitude

and functioning enormously, even with the underlying bpd. With continued therapy

she would likely have been much more tolerable and done better as she aged as

she was a very high functioning bpd to begin with.

> I think you bring up an important point here. Our nadas don't

> necessarily suffer only from one or more personality disorders.

> They can suffer from a variety of other issues as well, from

> eating disorders to depression to bipolar disorder or worse.

> Those other problems may be far more treatable than the BPD.

[Guest guest]

Ok I've got a scene for our hypothetical movie: we gather hundreds if not

thousands of us who get called ungrateful and selfish daughters. Better yet,

take hidden camera of then saying it...

Flash forward to mass broadcast of footage to all nadas at same time WITH

cameras on their reactions.

End scene: they all get help. Well it has to have a happy ending, right?!

peacefulwarriorwoman april.lynn.vermillion@...> wrote:

>I definitely agree with this last post. The biggest reason why there's hope

for a BPD is because they realize something is wrong with them. Which means

there is a crack in that barricade of denial they function within. If they are

at least willing to contemplate they may have a problem, there is hope.

>

>But denial is the basis of BPD. My mother has NEVER been able to see she has a

problem (except an " ungrateful, selfish daughter " ...who is me in her eyes).

>

>My therapist helped me by discussing the freedom of hopelessness. To not hope

for someone to change is incredibly liberating (once you work through the grief

of it). Because you finally realize you don't need others to change in order for

you to live to the fullest.

>

>You're starting a tough road, but I'm proud of you for taking the first steps

to discovering the truth about your situation. Just keep going step-by-step and

you'll be able to have peace in your life, with or without your mother's

recovery.

>

>Take care dear.

>

>

>> >

>> > I've just learned about BPD (did a search on " rage " and " irrational

thought " and a description of my mom popped up: BPD). I'm reading these messages

and am in the middle of Surviving a Borderline Parent. I always thought my mom

could improve if she would just go to therapy, read books, go to college, go to

church--anything. But if her issues are this disorder, and this disorder is hard

to " cure, " will she truly always be so difficult? Have any of you had a parent

who got better? -- " Gunnysacked "

>> >

>> >

[Guest guest]

Agreed on both counts. I was 16 or so when Nada was diagnosed with BPD, and at

the time I thought, " Oh sure, yet another excuse for her to behave like a raving

lunatic. Whatever. " It wasn't until late into my 20s that I aknowledged the

disorder, read about it and realized... Holy crow... this is totally the

underlying cause of her horrible behaviors.

>

> > I think you bring up an important point here. Our nadas don't

> > necessarily suffer only from one or more personality disorders.

> > They can suffer from a variety of other issues as well, from

> > eating disorders to depression to bipolar disorder or worse.

> > Those other problems may be far more treatable than the BPD.

>

>

>

>