Guest guest Posted September 8, 2012 Report Share Posted September 8, 2012 TomandFran, You wrote in your most recent post: " I don't recall ever saying that a person doesn't suffer the consequences of their actions nor that BPD is a good reason for not playing by the rules we all play by in order to have healthy families and societies. " What you wrote in an earlier was: " I think we have to be careful when talking about the older generation and their issues. We can't judge them with new knowledge we have that they were not privy to. So many things were unknown back when our sick parents were maturing... " This and other comments you have posted illustrate your point of view that the person with a personality disorder or a substance addiction didn't " ask " to be mentally ill or addicted, and therefor deserve compassion and support and that we don't have the right to pass judgement on their self-harming and other-harming behaviors. Your point is " we can't judge them " and my point is, " Yes, we can judge them. " Since we are at diametrically opposed positions on this point, then that is something we'll just have to agree to disagree about. -Annie > > > > > > I don't know the circumstances of your childhood nor do I minimize the hurt and suffering you have gone through. I merely tried to clarify what I meant the best I could and to be honest wasn't pointing the finger at you personally. Was trying to be general in my statements. I apologize if it didn't come across like that. Sometimes these types of communcation don't convey the true meaning with conversations because one can't see a face or body language behind it. > > > > > > My mother had the means as well to get help. She was a very sick individual and suffered alot...died from alcoholism at 58, just 6 years older than I am now, which is way too young to die. She hurt her kids as well. If she had gotten help they wouldn't have known about BPD back then, so really what kind of help could she have gotten?? Does that make my pain go away? Not in the least but reality is what reality is. > > > > > > BTW we as a family court ordered my mother to get into detox and help. Professionals still didn't reconize how deep her issues where back 30 years ago, so can I fault my mother, or the system, for lack of knowledge?? Let's pretend in reverse that my mum got all the help she needed and managed her BPD wonderfully the rest of her life...does that mean I no longer need help for my issues?? Does that mean I am now " cured " from all my fleas? I wish it was like that. > > > > > > My mother is dead. The recovery from living with her issues in my life is on going. It doesn't stop because I stopped having contact with her many years before her death, or because she passed away when I was in my 20's. I still have major reactions to my BPD stepdaughter that are rooted in my childhood. That is no longer my mother's problem, it is my problem. That isn't fair but I must move forward in keeping the focus on myself, so I get better, rather than convincing myself my mother didn't love me and revictimize myself all over again. I can't really judge what went on the inside my mother towards her kids. I am not God and all knowing. I do know how I feel and see things. I have control over changing myself. > > > > > > I am an elementary school teacher. Today if I was in school as a 3rd grader with the same family issues they would call family services. Back when I was really in 3rd grade they didn't do that. Can I get all upset with a school system from 50 years ago didn't have a policy in place for teachers to intervene? Maybe, but don't think that is a productive use of my recovery time. It was the best system they had back then with the knowledge they had. > > > > > > I really don't know the hell my mum went through. I have a few good recovery buddies that have talked to me from their side of BPD so I can guess a bit. Maybe hearing their side of the story has given me a bit of compassion towards my mother. I am getting that this thing is not only hard on the kids but the ones that suffer from it and society as a whole. > > > > > > I don't mean to offend anyone with this...just my opinion. My experiences may be different. That is not wrong, just different. We all are on different paths with this. That is not meant to invalidate others paths. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Please, let's drop it. That isn't what I said at all. I am not here to fight over this, nor am I the enemy on this site because I offer a different view or my experiences are different. I merely offered my opinion and tried to clarify questions where asked. My words are taken out of context, because a few sentences have been taken out of the whole. My goal in all this is to move into forgiveness and compassion. I don't have a problem with those concepts and also not empowering others to hurt me. I understand you see it differently but please re-read my statements, in their entirety to get the true meaning of what I said, and you will see I never said what you are accusing me of. I am talking about judging THE PAST with PRESENT knowledge and your accusations have gotten way off topic from my original post. It was a comparison post not about suffering consequences. I am sorry if what I said offended you but being different in a viewpoint is not meant to hurt, invalidate or offend others. Please don't take it that way or folks won't feel comfortable being honest on this forum. They will fall into group think, or bee hive mentality, and I don't think that is healthy. We all have different paths whether one agrees with it or not. We all have to sort out what is comfortable within ourselves in dealing with this. That should be respected or no one will bother to offer alternative views on the subject. Let's just drop it and agree that we see things differently in our path for healing. My goal is to move into forgiveness nothing more or less. I have the freedom to do it as I see fit for my life and can only offer what is going on for me. That doesn't mean you have the same goals in your path but it shouldn't threaten anyone that someone has a different goal. Maybe you would just prefer if I remained silent. That is the underlying tone I am getting. If so. I can comply with that. Just tell me. > > > > > > > > I don't know the circumstances of your childhood nor do I minimize the hurt and suffering you have gone through. I merely tried to clarify what I meant the best I could and to be honest wasn't pointing the finger at you personally. Was trying to be general in my statements. I apologize if it didn't come across like that. Sometimes these types of communcation don't convey the true meaning with conversations because one can't see a face or body language behind it. > > > > > > > > My mother had the means as well to get help. She was a very sick individual and suffered alot...died from alcoholism at 58, just 6 years older than I am now, which is way too young to die. She hurt her kids as well. If she had gotten help they wouldn't have known about BPD back then, so really what kind of help could she have gotten?? Does that make my pain go away? Not in the least but reality is what reality is. > > > > > > > > BTW we as a family court ordered my mother to get into detox and help. Professionals still didn't reconize how deep her issues where back 30 years ago, so can I fault my mother, or the system, for lack of knowledge?? Let's pretend in reverse that my mum got all the help she needed and managed her BPD wonderfully the rest of her life...does that mean I no longer need help for my issues?? Does that mean I am now " cured " from all my fleas? I wish it was like that. > > > > > > > > My mother is dead. The recovery from living with her issues in my life is on going. It doesn't stop because I stopped having contact with her many years before her death, or because she passed away when I was in my 20's. I still have major reactions to my BPD stepdaughter that are rooted in my childhood. That is no longer my mother's problem, it is my problem. That isn't fair but I must move forward in keeping the focus on myself, so I get better, rather than convincing myself my mother didn't love me and revictimize myself all over again. I can't really judge what went on the inside my mother towards her kids. I am not God and all knowing. I do know how I feel and see things. I have control over changing myself. > > > > > > > > I am an elementary school teacher. Today if I was in school as a 3rd grader with the same family issues they would call family services. Back when I was really in 3rd grade they didn't do that. Can I get all upset with a school system from 50 years ago didn't have a policy in place for teachers to intervene? Maybe, but don't think that is a productive use of my recovery time. It was the best system they had back then with the knowledge they had. > > > > > > > > I really don't know the hell my mum went through. I have a few good recovery buddies that have talked to me from their side of BPD so I can guess a bit. Maybe hearing their side of the story has given me a bit of compassion towards my mother. I am getting that this thing is not only hard on the kids but the ones that suffer from it and society as a whole. > > > > > > > > I don't mean to offend anyone with this...just my opinion. My experiences may be different. That is not wrong, just different. We all are on different paths with this. That is not meant to invalidate others paths. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 There are many ways to achieve healing and peace, and the path of forgiveness is one of them, but its not the only one. Its also OK to hand the misplaced guilt and inappropriate feeling of responsibility back to the abuser, emotionally detach, and walk away; there is peace and healing for the former abused child that way, too. That's wonderful that you've found peace and healing through a more traditional religious path, but others who aren't religious or have a different religion can be equally at peace and happy; the concept of forgiveness is very person and individual. Sharing what works for you, personally, is what we're all about here. If forgiving your abuser is how you healed, then that's wonderful to share that with us. Each of us passes through the stages of discovery, shock, grieving, anger, etc., on our way to healing and its OK to be angry at someone who has abused us for more or less our whole life. Its OK to place the blame where it belongs. Anger is a healthy stage of grieving and healing, and it takes longer for some and not as long for others to pass through it. Pushing someone to leave their anger behind and feel compassion for their abuser and forgive their abuser before they're ready isn't very healthy. In fact, it has the potential to keep the adult child in the position of receiving more abuse and more emotional injury. If forgiveness is going to be part of an individual's healing, if they choose to forgive, it will be genuine and healing if its given when the individual is ready and able to grant forgiveness from a safe, healthy emotional distance and if the former abused child feels the need for it. Some do feel the need to forgive, some don't. So, please do continue to share what works for you: you're wanting to " move into forgiveness and compassion " . I have reached a peaceful state of mind a different way. Its OK that we have different paths. -Annie > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the circumstances of your childhood nor do I minimize the hurt and suffering you have gone through. I merely tried to clarify what I meant the best I could and to be honest wasn't pointing the finger at you personally. Was trying to be general in my statements. I apologize if it didn't come across like that. Sometimes these types of communcation don't convey the true meaning with conversations because one can't see a face or body language behind it. > > > > > > > > > > My mother had the means as well to get help. She was a very sick individual and suffered alot...died from alcoholism at 58, just 6 years older than I am now, which is way too young to die. She hurt her kids as well. If she had gotten help they wouldn't have known about BPD back then, so really what kind of help could she have gotten?? Does that make my pain go away? Not in the least but reality is what reality is. > > > > > > > > > > BTW we as a family court ordered my mother to get into detox and help. Professionals still didn't reconize how deep her issues where back 30 years ago, so can I fault my mother, or the system, for lack of knowledge?? Let's pretend in reverse that my mum got all the help she needed and managed her BPD wonderfully the rest of her life...does that mean I no longer need help for my issues?? Does that mean I am now " cured " from all my fleas? I wish it was like that. > > > > > > > > > > My mother is dead. The recovery from living with her issues in my life is on going. It doesn't stop because I stopped having contact with her many years before her death, or because she passed away when I was in my 20's. I still have major reactions to my BPD stepdaughter that are rooted in my childhood. That is no longer my mother's problem, it is my problem. That isn't fair but I must move forward in keeping the focus on myself, so I get better, rather than convincing myself my mother didn't love me and revictimize myself all over again. I can't really judge what went on the inside my mother towards her kids. I am not God and all knowing. I do know how I feel and see things. I have control over changing myself. > > > > > > > > > > I am an elementary school teacher. Today if I was in school as a 3rd grader with the same family issues they would call family services. Back when I was really in 3rd grade they didn't do that. Can I get all upset with a school system from 50 years ago didn't have a policy in place for teachers to intervene? Maybe, but don't think that is a productive use of my recovery time. It was the best system they had back then with the knowledge they had. > > > > > > > > > > I really don't know the hell my mum went through. I have a few good recovery buddies that have talked to me from their side of BPD so I can guess a bit. Maybe hearing their side of the story has given me a bit of compassion towards my mother. I am getting that this thing is not only hard on the kids but the ones that suffer from it and society as a whole. > > > > > > > > > > I don't mean to offend anyone with this...just my opinion. My experiences may be different. That is not wrong, just different. We all are on different paths with this. That is not meant to invalidate others paths. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 I was so upset with the whole thing that I asked three others to read my comments only and restate to me what they thought I said. One went to law and business school, one has a recovery site with 500 members, and the other is a recovered BPD themself who helps BPDs and their family members. All of them have set me straight in the past so I knew I could trust their judgement. I started to get really concerned that I was not conveying the point properly and none of them saw in my communication what you saw. I can only conclude that something I wrote was a huge trigger and resulted in a miscommunication. One person I asked went to law school and he said that even in legal terms one can't sue someone in their past with present knowledge. Like if one had an operation ten years and it left a horrible scar but now they have the knowledge to leave a smaller scar, one would not be able to sue that doctor based on that. He also said that victims of violent crimes often forgive the quilty party, whether they are religious or not, but the quilty person still has to pay the legal consequences. That is justice. I have a family member in rehab for addictions at the current time. He is facing some jail time for his actions. I truly feel sorry for him that he screwed up his life so badly, but I totally agree he needs to pay the penalty for what he has done. One term doesn't negate the other. I even looked up forgiveness and compassion, worried that I might be using the wrong terms that offended, there was nothing I saw in the definition that negated consequences on the guilty person's part or even a victim's suffering they must deal with. They can co-exist side by side without interfering with each side. I think there is some hot button trigger in the commmunication I wrote and it resulted in a miscommunication. Maybe we need to look at that angle of this debate and be aware of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know the circumstances of your childhood nor do I minimize the hurt and suffering you have gone through. I merely tried to clarify what I meant the best I could and to be honest wasn't pointing the finger at you personally. Was trying to be general in my statements. I apologize if it didn't come across like that. Sometimes these types of communcation don't convey the true meaning with conversations because one can't see a face or body language behind it. > > > > > > > > > > > > My mother had the means as well to get help. She was a very sick individual and suffered alot...died from alcoholism at 58, just 6 years older than I am now, which is way too young to die. She hurt her kids as well. If she had gotten help they wouldn't have known about BPD back then, so really what kind of help could she have gotten?? Does that make my pain go away? Not in the least but reality is what reality is. > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW we as a family court ordered my mother to get into detox and help. Professionals still didn't reconize how deep her issues where back 30 years ago, so can I fault my mother, or the system, for lack of knowledge?? Let's pretend in reverse that my mum got all the help she needed and managed her BPD wonderfully the rest of her life...does that mean I no longer need help for my issues?? Does that mean I am now " cured " from all my fleas? I wish it was like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > My mother is dead. The recovery from living with her issues in my life is on going. It doesn't stop because I stopped having contact with her many years before her death, or because she passed away when I was in my 20's. I still have major reactions to my BPD stepdaughter that are rooted in my childhood. That is no longer my mother's problem, it is my problem. That isn't fair but I must move forward in keeping the focus on myself, so I get better, rather than convincing myself my mother didn't love me and revictimize myself all over again. I can't really judge what went on the inside my mother towards her kids. I am not God and all knowing. I do know how I feel and see things. I have control over changing myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am an elementary school teacher. Today if I was in school as a 3rd grader with the same family issues they would call family services. Back when I was really in 3rd grade they didn't do that. Can I get all upset with a school system from 50 years ago didn't have a policy in place for teachers to intervene? Maybe, but don't think that is a productive use of my recovery time. It was the best system they had back then with the knowledge they had. > > > > > > > > > > > > I really don't know the hell my mum went through. I have a few good recovery buddies that have talked to me from their side of BPD so I can guess a bit. Maybe hearing their side of the story has given me a bit of compassion towards my mother. I am getting that this thing is not only hard on the kids but the ones that suffer from it and society as a whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't mean to offend anyone with this...just my opinion. My experiences may be different. That is not wrong, just different. We all are on different paths with this. That is not meant to invalidate others paths. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 For me, it's not about judging them (or not judging them). It's about getting better. Best to all, Ashana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 tomandfran, The " forgiveness " subject comes around this group all the time and it very ironically leads to fights. We are told to " forgive " by our abusers and that keeps the abuse going. So, yes, " forgiveness " is a red button hot trigger. Forgiving people are good people. Non forgiving people are bad people. That's the conventional wisdom. Annie got's her thing. You have yours. It doesn't matter what some stranger on a board thinks. If I were you I'd focus on your recovery. You'll never meet any of us. It really doesn't matter what people think or how you came across. > ** > > > For me, it's not about judging them (or not judging them). It's about > getting better. > > Best to all, > Ashana > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 I posted a long rambling thing on this last month. I ran into this " forgiveness/not forgiveness " issue in an abuse and trauma recovery 9-week program I attended and it caused a lot of the same argument and acrimony. My feeling is that there are two concepts being blended in the " recovery community " and it's causing a lot of unnecessary bad feeling. Standard " forgiveness " implies allowing someone who has hurt you before the opportunity to hurt you again. It's a tentative re-extending of trust, on the hope/expectation that the offender has learned better and will not repeat the damaging behavior. It can be a huge mistake to offer this kind of forgiveness to someone with a personality disorder because changing their behavior is really, really hard for them even with lots of help, so even if they genuinely promise to do better, they will almost certainly repeat. It's a kind of compulsion. The one thing that all personality disorders have in common is " rigidity of thinking " -- that is, these are people who are *stuck* in their maladaptive behaviors. Engaging in this kind of forgiveness with a personality disordered person is like continually giving the car keys to an alcoholic -- you damned well *know*they are going to drive drunk again if you " forgive " them. (You might even say that if you use this kind of " forgiveness " on a person with a compulsive problem, you're partially responsible for the damage they do! It's like giving the rent money to a compulsive gambler -- you *know*what's going to happen, right?) A related concept that sometimes gets called " forgiveness " -- and shouldn't, in my opinion -- is sometimes named " detachment " (in Buddhist thought it's sometimes called " lovingkindness " ), or " compassion " -- this implies NO re-extension of trust, because you know that the person is, in fact, *stuck*, and will be repeating the bad behavior, probably in the near future, even if they swear on a stack of Bibles that they won't. " Detachment " just lets you distance yourself from the problematic person without, hopefully, letting your (understandable!) anger, pain, and resentment bind you to them in a damaging emotional dance. So you feel try to feel sorry for the person *without* exposing yourself to further damage. When I read Peck's " People of the Lie " , he made an interesting argument that if a person came into the emergency room with a high fever and believed, for example, that the doctors and nurses were aliens out to steal his vital organs, and he started cursing at them and hitting them and trying to kill them, they would *not* simply stand there and take it. They'd restrain the guy, sedate him, and treat his fever until he came to his senses. But if we meet someone who has an emotional/spiritual " fever " and is lashing out due to a disorder, we feel like we're not allowed to protect ourselves because they're not " responsible. " We *are* allowed to protect ourselves by distancing ourselves. It is, in fact, the only thing we *can* do (ethically and legally), and we have a responsibility to protect ourselves, and our spouses and children if we have them. You can regard a person as disordered - fundamentally sick - and therefore cut them some slack (if you choose) for their problems, * without* feeling like you are required to just allow them to hurt you. I should add that this is a very contentious issue in the health care and mental health communities too, so it's not just here on this list that the issue of how responsible a mentally/emotionally disordered person is for their behavior gets raised. Say a person is diagnosed as bipolar or schizophrenic and they get dangerous when manic or in a " florid " schizophrenic state -- do we have the right to force meds down their throat to make them less dangerous? What if they don't like the side effects of the meds? What if they *know* they need the meds to be not dangerous, and yet they don't take them, and then they hurt or kill someone -- do we hold them responsible because they could have done something to make themselves not dangerous to others, but they refused to do it? For our purposes, we tend to feel like our BPD parents should know that they need help -- therapy, meds, whatever it takes -- so that they aren't dangerous to us, their kids, and that they, like the responsible bipolar or schizophrenic, should recognize that they have problems and should do whatever is necessary to keep themselves from acting in dangerous and damaging ways. And we get angry and resentful (or at least, I do) when we feel like our parents would prefer to be rageaholics and take out their problems on us rather than get the help they need. With my nada, she always seems to want me to " forgive " her in the first sense -- that is, she wants me to just accept that she's going to hurt me again, and I should let her keep doing it because she's my mother and deep down she " really " loves me - whereas all I want is to achieve " detachment " , which involves *not* letting her hurt me any more. Anyway, I started rambling again (big surprise there, huh...), but the point I was trying to make is that we should be really, really careful with the concept of *forgiveness* here, because a lot of people -- including me -- feel that if someone is telling them to " be more forgiving " , or " be more understanding " , or " realize that they can't help it, they're sick " , that this means they think we should just stand there and let them hurt us on the grounds that they " can't help themselves. " And we quite naturally don't want to do that. And I don't think we should, because I know it damages us, and I think it damages them too, to be allowed to behave that way, even if they don't agree. -- Jen H. As a postscript, I offer this story from " Codependent No More " : ------ Once upon a time, a woman moved into a cave in the mountains to study with a guru. She wanted, she said, to learn everything there was to know. The guru supplied her with stacks of books and left her alone so she could study. Every morning, the guru returned to the cave to monitor the woman’s progress. In his hand, he carried a heavy wooden cane. Each morning, he asked her the same question: “Have you learned everything there is to know yet?” Each morning, her answer was the same. “No,” she said, “I haven’t.” The guru would then strike her over the head with his cane. The scenario repeated itself for months. One day the guru entered the cave, asked the same question, heard the same answer, and raised his cane to hit her in the same way, but the woman grabbed the cane from the guru, stopping the assault in midair. Relieved to end the daily batterings but fearing reprisal, the woman looked up at the guru. To her surprise, the guru smiled. “Congratulations,” he said, “you have graduated. You now know everything you *need* to know.” “How is that?” the woman asked. “You have learned that you will never learn everything there is to know,” he replied. “And you have learned how to stop the pain.” ----------------------- Detaching from our borderline parents is how to stop the pain. Put up your hand and grab the cane and say " No. Enough. " ( " Forgiving " them in the classic sense would be the equivalent of continuing to let the guru hit you over the head with the cane...) Of course, since our nadas/fadas aren't gurus, they aren't going to approve of you for stopping the beatings -- they're going to keep trying to hit you. But your answer still has to be the same. " No. Enough. " On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 12:11 AM, Millicent Kunstler < millicentkunstler@...> wrote: > tomandfran, > > The " forgiveness " subject comes around this group all the time and it very > ironically leads to fights. We are told to " forgive " by our abusers and > that keeps the abuse going. So, yes, " forgiveness " is a red button hot > trigger. > > Forgiving people are good people. Non forgiving people are bad people. > That's the conventional wisdom. > > Annie got's her thing. You have yours. It doesn't matter what some stranger > on a board thinks. If I were you I'd focus on your recovery. You'll never > meet any of us. It really doesn't matter what people think or how you came > across. > > > > > ** > > > > > > For me, it's not about judging them (or not judging them). It's about > > getting better. > > > > Best to all, > > Ashana > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 I enjoyed reading this! > I posted a long rambling thing on this last month. I ran into this > " forgiveness/not forgiveness " issue in an abuse and trauma recovery 9-week > program I attended and it caused a lot of the same argument and acrimony. > My feeling is that there are two concepts being blended in the " recovery > community " and it's causing a lot of unnecessary bad feeling. > > Standard " forgiveness " implies allowing someone who has hurt you before the > opportunity to hurt you again. It's a tentative re-extending of trust, on > the hope/expectation that the offender has learned better and will not > repeat the damaging behavior. It can be a huge mistake to offer this kind > of forgiveness to someone with a personality disorder because changing > their behavior is really, really hard for them even with lots of help, so > even if they genuinely promise to do better, they will almost certainly > repeat. It's a kind of compulsion. The one thing that all personality > disorders have in common is " rigidity of thinking " -- that is, these are > people who are *stuck* in their maladaptive behaviors. Engaging in this > kind of forgiveness with a personality disordered person is like > continually giving the car keys to an alcoholic -- you damned well > *know*they are going to drive drunk again if you " forgive " them. (You > might even > say that if you use this kind of " forgiveness " on a person with a > compulsive problem, you're partially responsible for the damage they do! > It's like giving the rent money to a compulsive gambler -- you > *know*what's going to happen, right?) > > A related concept that sometimes gets called " forgiveness " -- and > shouldn't, in my opinion -- is sometimes named " detachment " (in Buddhist > thought it's sometimes called " lovingkindness " ), or " compassion " -- this > implies NO re-extension of trust, because you know that the person is, in > fact, *stuck*, and will be repeating the bad behavior, probably in the near > future, even if they swear on a stack of Bibles that they won't. > " Detachment " just lets you distance yourself from the problematic person > without, hopefully, letting your (understandable!) anger, pain, and > resentment bind you to them in a damaging emotional dance. So you feel try > to feel sorry for the person *without* exposing yourself to further damage. > > > When I read Peck's " People of the Lie " , he made an interesting > argument that if a person came into the emergency room with a high fever > and believed, for example, that the doctors and nurses were aliens out to > steal his vital organs, and he started cursing at them and hitting them and > trying to kill them, they would *not* simply stand there and take it. > They'd restrain the guy, sedate him, and treat his fever until he came to > his senses. But if we meet someone who has an emotional/spiritual " fever " > and is lashing out due to a disorder, we feel like we're not allowed to > protect ourselves because they're not " responsible. " > > We *are* allowed to protect ourselves by distancing ourselves. It is, in > fact, the only thing we *can* do (ethically and legally), and we have a > responsibility to protect ourselves, and our spouses and children if we > have them. You can regard a person as disordered - fundamentally sick - > and therefore cut them some slack (if you choose) for their problems, * > without* feeling like you are required to just allow them to hurt you. > > I should add that this is a very contentious issue in the health care and > mental health communities too, so it's not just here on this list that the > issue of how responsible a mentally/emotionally disordered person is for > their behavior gets raised. Say a person is diagnosed as bipolar or > schizophrenic and they get dangerous when manic or in a " florid " > schizophrenic state -- do we have the right to force meds down their throat > to make them less dangerous? What if they don't like the side effects of > the meds? What if they *know* they need the meds to be not dangerous, and > yet they don't take them, and then they hurt or kill someone -- do we hold > them responsible because they could have done something to make themselves > not dangerous to others, but they refused to do it? > > For our purposes, we tend to feel like our BPD parents should know that > they need help -- therapy, meds, whatever it takes -- so that they aren't > dangerous to us, their kids, and that they, like the responsible bipolar or > schizophrenic, should recognize that they have problems and should do > whatever is necessary to keep themselves from acting in dangerous and > damaging ways. And we get angry and resentful (or at least, I do) when we > feel like our parents would prefer to be rageaholics and take out their > problems on us rather than get the help they need. With my nada, she > always seems to want me to " forgive " her in the first sense -- that is, she > wants me to just accept that she's going to hurt me again, and I should let > her keep doing it because she's my mother and deep down she " really " loves > me - whereas all I want is to achieve " detachment " , which involves > *not* letting > her hurt me any more. > > Anyway, I started rambling again (big surprise there, huh...), but the > point I was trying to make is that we should be really, really careful with > the concept of *forgiveness* here, because a lot of people -- including me > -- feel that if someone is telling them to " be more forgiving " , or " be more > understanding " , or " realize that they can't help it, they're sick " , that > this means they think we should just stand there and let them hurt us on > the grounds that they " can't help themselves. " And we quite naturally > don't want to do that. And I don't think we should, because I know it > damages us, and I think it damages them too, to be allowed to behave that > way, even if they don't agree. > > -- Jen H. > > > As a postscript, I offer this story from " Codependent No More " : > ------ > > Once upon a time, a woman moved into a cave in the mountains to study with > a guru. She wanted, she said, to learn everything there was to know. The > guru supplied her with stacks of books and left her alone so she could > study. Every morning, the guru returned to the cave to monitor the woman’s > progress. In his hand, he carried a heavy wooden cane. Each morning, he > asked her the same question: “Have you learned everything there is to know > yet?” Each morning, her answer was the same. “No,” she said, “I haven’t.” > The guru would then strike her over the head with his cane. > > The scenario repeated itself for months. One day the guru entered the cave, > asked the same question, heard the same answer, and raised his cane to hit > her in the same way, but the woman grabbed the cane from the guru, stopping > the assault in midair. > > Relieved to end the daily batterings but fearing reprisal, the woman looked > up at the guru. To her surprise, the guru smiled. “Congratulations,” he > said, “you have graduated. You now know everything you *need* to know.” > > “How is that?” the woman asked. > > “You have learned that you will never learn everything there is to know,” > he replied. “And you have learned how to stop the pain.” > > ----------------------- > > Detaching from our borderline parents is how to stop the pain. Put up your > hand and grab the cane and say " No. Enough. " ( " Forgiving " them in the > classic sense would be the equivalent of continuing to let the guru hit you > over the head with the cane...) Of course, since our nadas/fadas aren't > gurus, they aren't going to approve of you for stopping the beatings -- > they're going to keep trying to hit you. But your answer still has to be > the same. " No. Enough. " > > > > On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 12:11 AM, Millicent Kunstler < > millicentkunstler@...> wrote: > >> tomandfran, >> >> The " forgiveness " subject comes around this group all the time and it very >> ironically leads to fights. We are told to " forgive " by our abusers and >> that keeps the abuse going. So, yes, " forgiveness " is a red button hot >> trigger. >> >> Forgiving people are good people. Non forgiving people are bad people. >> That's the conventional wisdom. >> >> Annie got's her thing. You have yours. It doesn't matter what some stranger >> on a board thinks. If I were you I'd focus on your recovery. You'll never >> meet any of us. It really doesn't matter what people think or how you came >> across. >> >> >> >> > ** >> > >> > >> > For me, it's not about judging them (or not judging them). It's about >> > getting better. >> > >> > Best to all, >> > Ashana >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2012 Report Share Posted September 9, 2012 Well put; this resonates with me. Thanks for sharing it, . -Annie > >> > >> > ** > >> > > >> > > >> > For me, it's not about judging them (or not judging them). It's about > >> > getting better. > >> > > >> > Best to all, > >> > Ashana > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Thanks to all of you for taking the time to share your insights. It doesn't matter if I meet all of you or not. I want to say what I mean and communicate so that there is mutual understanding. I sure don't want to hurt anyone here anymore than they have been or leave them with an impression that doesn't reflect my heart!! That isn't my intent. I do believe there are words that trigger on forums like this. I think it is worth looking at why I am triggered to be honest. I can't hide in my house for the rest of my life just because something out there triggers me. That isn't healing in my opinion. It is just avoiding. I did a reality check with others on my end in order to make sure I didn't miss something in what I said. I have been known to have blind spots in what I THINK I said and what ACTUALLY comes out of my mouth. Thanks again for all the honest posts. Believe it or not it clears up a lot on my end. I feel much better now and understand where many of you are coming from! That is a good thing in my opinion. Be blessed, Fran > > >> > > >> > ** > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > For me, it's not about judging them (or not judging them). It's about > > >> > getting better. > > >> > > > >> > Best to all, > > >> > Ashana > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 , Thank you that is so helpful. It is great to be able to distinguish in my mind between the " forgiveness " that is so triggering when people tell one to feel it (it's almost invalidating in a way, but how the heck could anyone else understand?) and the forgiveness that I seek, which is really complete emotional detachment to deceased Nada AND her malingering in my head. And I know that means, that will also mean that my judgement of her as the feminine manifestation of Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, Slobodon Milosevic, and ph Stalin's bastard child will have to stop. So I can appreciate both Annie and Fran's points, thanks ladies. And also Millicent, great observation that it doesn't matter what anyone of us thinks in relation to anyone else - the tic of co-dependent thinking ever manifesting, i know that so well! Off to the woods - Cheers, Jaleo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Wonderful, , that was very helpful to me in my journey to NC with my crazy-making nada. jwjrenslow@... Re: Re: Boundaries I posted a long rambling thing on this last month. I ran into this " forgiveness/not forgiveness " issue in an abuse and trauma recovery 9-week program I attended and it caused a lot of the same argument and acrimony. My feeling is that there are two concepts being blended in the " recovery community " and it's causing a lot of unnecessary bad feeling. Standard " forgiveness " implies allowing someone who has hurt you before the opportunity to hurt you again. It's a tentative re-extending of trust, on the hope/expectation that the offender has learned better and will not repeat the damaging behavior. It can be a huge mistake to offer this kind of forgiveness to someone with a personality disorder because changing their behavior is really, really hard for them even with lots of help, so even if they genuinely promise to do better, they will almost certainly repeat. It's a kind of compulsion. The one thing that all personality disorders have in common is " rigidity of thinking " -- that is, these are people who are *stuck* in their maladaptive behaviors. Engaging in this kind of forgiveness with a personality disordered person is like continually giving the car keys to an alcoholic -- you damned well *know*they are going to drive drunk again if you " forgive " them. (You might even say that if you use this kind of " forgiveness " on a person with a compulsive problem, you're partially responsible for the damage they do! It's like giving the rent money to a compulsive gambler -- you *know*what's going to happen, right?) A related concept that sometimes gets called " forgiveness " -- and shouldn't, in my opinion -- is sometimes named " detachment " (in Buddhist thought it's sometimes called " lovingkindness " ), or " compassion " -- this implies NO re-extension of trust, because you know that the person is, in fact, *stuck*, and will be repeating the bad behavior, probably in the near future, even if they swear on a stack of Bibles that they won't. " Detachment " just lets you distance yourself from the problematic person without, hopefully, letting your (understandable!) anger, pain, and resentment bind you to them in a damaging emotional dance. So you feel try to feel sorry for the person *without* exposing yourself to further damage. When I read Peck's " People of the Lie " , he made an interesting argument that if a person came into the emergency room with a high fever and believed, for example, that the doctors and nurses were aliens out to steal his vital organs, and he started cursing at them and hitting them and trying to kill them, they would *not* simply stand there and take it. They'd restrain the guy, sedate him, and treat his fever until he came to his senses. But if we meet someone who has an emotional/spiritual " fever " and is lashing out due to a disorder, we feel like we're not allowed to protect ourselves because they're not " responsible. " We *are* allowed to protect ourselves by distancing ourselves. It is, in fact, the only thing we *can* do (ethically and legally), and we have a responsibility to protect ourselves, and our spouses and children if we have them. You can regard a person as disordered - fundamentally sick - and therefore cut them some slack (if you choose) for their problems, * without* feeling like you are required to just allow them to hurt you. I should add that this is a very contentious issue in the health care and mental health communities too, so it's not just here on this list that the issue of how responsible a mentally/emotionally disordered person is for their behavior gets raised. Say a person is diagnosed as bipolar or schizophrenic and they get dangerous when manic or in a " florid " schizophrenic state -- do we have the right to force meds down their throat to make them less dangerous? What if they don't like the side effects of the meds? What if they *know* they need the meds to be not dangerous, and yet they don't take them, and then they hurt or kill someone -- do we hold them responsible because they could have done something to make themselves not dangerous to others, but they refused to do it? For our purposes, we tend to feel like our BPD parents should know that they need help -- therapy, meds, whatever it takes -- so that they aren't dangerous to us, their kids, and that they, like the responsible bipolar or schizophrenic, should recognize that they have problems and should do whatever is necessary to keep themselves from acting in dangerous and damaging ways. And we get angry and resentful (or at least, I do) when we feel like our parents would prefer to be rageaholics and take out their problems on us rather than get the help they need. With my nada, she always seems to want me to " forgive " her in the first sense -- that is, she wants me to just accept that she's going to hurt me again, and I should let her keep doing it because she's my mother and deep down she " really " loves me - whereas all I want is to achieve " detachment " , which involves *not* letting her hurt me any more. Anyway, I started rambling again (big surprise there, huh...), but the point I was trying to make is that we should be really, really careful with the concept of *forgiveness* here, because a lot of people -- including me -- feel that if someone is telling them to " be more forgiving " , or " be more understanding " , or " realize that they can't help it, they're sick " , that this means they think we should just stand there and let them hurt us on the grounds that they " can't help themselves. " And we quite naturally don't want to do that. And I don't think we should, because I know it damages us, and I think it damages them too, to be allowed to behave that way, even if they don't agree. -- Jen H. As a postscript, I offer this story from " Codependent No More " : ------ Once upon a time, a woman moved into a cave in the mountains to study with a guru. She wanted, she said, to learn everything there was to know. The guru supplied her with stacks of books and left her alone so she could study. Every morning, the guru returned to the cave to monitor the woman's progress. In his hand, he carried a heavy wooden cane. Each morning, he asked her the same question: " Have you learned everything there is to know yet? " Each morning, her answer was the same. " No, " she said, " I haven't. " The guru would then strike her over the head with his cane. The scenario repeated itself for months. One day the guru entered the cave, asked the same question, heard the same answer, and raised his cane to hit her in the same way, but the woman grabbed the cane from the guru, stopping the assault in midair. Relieved to end the daily batterings but fearing reprisal, the woman looked up at the guru. To her surprise, the guru smiled. " Congratulations, " he said, " you have graduated. You now know everything you *need* to know. " " How is that? " the woman asked. " You have learned that you will never learn everything there is to know, " he replied. " And you have learned how to stop the pain. " ----------------------- Detaching from our borderline parents is how to stop the pain. Put up your hand and grab the cane and say " No. Enough. " ( " Forgiving " them in the classic sense would be the equivalent of continuing to let the guru hit you over the head with the cane...) Of course, since our nadas/fadas aren't gurus, they aren't going to approve of you for stopping the beatings -- they're going to keep trying to hit you. But your answer still has to be the same. " No. Enough. " On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 12:11 AM, Millicent Kunstler < millicentkunstler@...> wrote: > tomandfran, > > The " forgiveness " subject comes around this group all the time and it very > ironically leads to fights. We are told to " forgive " by our abusers and > that keeps the abuse going. So, yes, " forgiveness " is a red button hot > trigger. > > Forgiving people are good people. Non forgiving people are bad people. > That's the conventional wisdom. > > Annie got's her thing. You have yours. It doesn't matter what some stranger > on a board thinks. If I were you I'd focus on your recovery. You'll never > meet any of us. It really doesn't matter what people think or how you came > across. > > > > > ** > > > > > > For me, it's not about judging them (or not judging them). It's about > > getting better. > > > > Best to all, > > Ashana > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Wow! I had no idea there was a such a huge and wide difference in the opinion of forgiveness. No wonder it triggers so much within people on forums like this. I am pretty new to this type of communciating. I am glad that I kept posting to get to the bottom of it. I appreciate the heads up on this one. I have never heard these different ideas on what it means to some folks. See, you can teach an old dog new tricks. Just wondering if there are other things I need to know in order to be productive on this site?? Is there a format we all use? Guidelines? Are there any therapists on the site facilitating? Be blessed, Fran > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > For me, it's not about judging them (or not judging them). It's about > > > getting better. > > > > > > Best to all, > > > Ashana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 I know that forgiving is essential. Carrying bitterness and unforgiveness around will cause health issues within a person. It's like carrying a back pack around with all your anger in it. Not good for the soul. Forgiveness is mostly for the one that forgives so you don't have to put one more " thing " in the backpack and carry it around the rest of your life. Forgive, then set boundaries. Forgive again, and again, but if you are not setting boundaries, you will have to continue to forgive. Set the boundaries, set yourself free from attacks!!!! Laurie In a message dated 9/11/2012 2:39:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tomandfran1605@... writes: Wow! I had no idea there was a such a huge and wide difference in the opinion of forgiveness. No wonder it triggers so much within people on forums like this. I am pretty new to this type of communciating. I am glad that I kept posting to get to the bottom of it. I appreciate the heads up on this one. I have never heard these different ideas on what it means to some folks. See, you can teach an old dog new tricks. Just wondering if there are other things I need to know in order to be productive on this site?? Is there a format we all use? Guidelines? Are there any therapists on the site facilitating? Be blessed, Fran > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > For me, it's not about judging them (or not judging them). It's about > > > getting better. > > > > > > Best to all, > > > Ashana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > **This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new book The > > Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tips and > > Tools to Stop Walking on Eggshells, available at www.BPDCentral.com.** > > Problems? Write @... DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST. > > > > To unsub from this list, send a blank email to > > _WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe _ (mailto:WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe ) > > > > Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline Parent, " and > > " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to find) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 I disagree. Forgiveness may be essential for some people, but it isn't for everyone. I don't think I have forgiven nada/fada. It's very clear to me that they deserve to be punished severely. But I also just don't care about them at a personal level at all. It doesn't matter to me if they strike it rich or develop a slow and painful cancer. It's possible to simply be detached. Take care, Ashana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 I'm with Ash. Forgiveness is not essential. Detaching is essential so that you aren't tied to your abuser by bonds of anger, hate, and resentment, and revenge impulses - that gives them far too much control over, and influence on, your life going forward. It's necessary to let go of the person who has hurt you -- it is not at all necessary to give them the opportunity to hurt you again. In fact I would say giving someone who has hurt you repeatedly the opportunity to go ON hurting you is self-destructive and a bad idea (which is what most abusive types mean when they say they want you to " forgive " them -- " Forgive me so I can go on hurting you! " ) - Jen H. > ** > > > I disagree. Forgiveness may be essential for some people, but it isn't for > everyone. > > I don't think I have forgiven nada/fada. It's very clear to me that they > deserve to be punished severely. But I also just don't care about them at a > personal level at all. It doesn't matter to me if they strike it rich or > develop a slow and painful cancer. > > It's possible to simply be detached. > > Take care, > Ashana > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 I guess I see it as the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. Personally, to me, what you all are calling detachment is what I call forgiveness...which does not require reconciling with the other person. It fascinates me how we all use and interpret these words!! Ninera ----- Reply message ----- Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2012 10:22 am Subject: Re: Boundaries To: WTOAdultChildren1 > I'm with Ash. Forgiveness is not essential. Detaching is essential so that you aren't tied to your abuser by bonds of anger, hate, and resentment, and revenge impulses - that gives them far too much control over, and influence on, your life going forward. It's necessary to let go of the person who has hurt you -- it is not at all necessary to give them the opportunity to hurt you again. In fact I would say giving someone who has hurt you repeatedly the opportunity to go ON hurting you is self-destructive and a bad idea (which is what most abusive types mean when they say they want you to " forgive " them -- " Forgive me so I can go on hurting you! " ) - Jen H. > ** > > > I disagree. Forgiveness may be essential for some people, but it isn't for > everyone. > > I don't think I have forgiven nada/fada. It's very clear to me that they > deserve to be punished severely. But I also just don't care about them at a > personal level at all. It doesn't matter to me if they strike it rich or > develop a slow and painful cancer. > > It's possible to simply be detached. > > Take care, > Ashana > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Ninera, I think there is still a difference between detachment and forgiveness, although I also see forgiveness as distinct from reconciliation. Reconciliation in my case just seems absurd, but I still don't think that I've forgiven nada/fada. It's a little bit hard for me to explain, but I have just come to the place where I feel that harming me as a child was a crime against the state and against humanity--it wasn't a personal crime against me. It was wrong and it remains wrong. Harming children harms society, and not just the individual. Therefore, meting out justice or forgiveness is just really not my place. That is for the state and God to do or not do. I am not in charge of that. It's just not my problem. If nada/fada were still in a position to abuse me, and I had wounds from weeks or years ago to consider, from when I was an adult and in a position to make choices about it, rather than from decades ago when I did not have choices, it might be different. Take care, Ashana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 " Boundaries " by Cloud & Townsend is, without a doubt, the BEST book I've ever read. L In a message dated 10/31/2012 7:41:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fauntine_80@... writes: I've never read that particular book, but I have read the Boundaries book by Drs. Townsend and Cloud, and really learned a lot from it. --- In _WTOAdultChildren1 _ (mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ) , " Gagne " wrote: > > I am online and looking to purchase a couple of books - and came across > " Boundaries " by Anne . > > Can anyone make any recommendations about this book or if it is worth it? > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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