Guest guest Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than her. Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to let her in. Wow, this is so hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 I really hear you. I believe the " nice mother " is what keeps us hooked like drugs addicts. I can be addicted to the highs and lows of a bpd easily. Good luck. > ** > > > I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing > right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on > setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I > think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one > minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly > even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get > roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a > normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the > peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy > lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was > a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for > 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a > few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our > boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been > happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think > about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, > I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see > the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, > picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than > her. > > Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said > what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in > emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to > let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own > happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have > nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are > impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to > let her in. Wow, this is so hard! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 I was where you were at before I found out about BPD. . . I didn't have a therapist to guide and push me but I continually went back for more because she is my mother and that is what I'm supposed to do. I felt bad, too, that she needs love and I'm her daughter and I have a responsibility toward her - especially since I have kids she loves too. However, I found out about BPD in July and after reading some of the books about BPD and understanding how their mind works has helped me to see that her " love " for me isn't what I feel for my kids. It is motivated purely by selfishness and a need to fill her " hole " inside. All her craziness comes from feeling like her needs are not being met or her need to blow of the steam from the pressure cooker that is always boiling inside her. That's what motivates the under-handed, sneaky digs at people and the rudeness toward innocent people - not to mention the rages. It really isn't about shutting her out; it is about putting boundaries in place to show them their behavior is harmful to others and that it really isn't okay. You have to protect yourself from ruining your relationship with your husband; you have to protect any potential children you may have from her abusiveness. (Assuming you don't have them now). I was able to separate from her emotionally over a very long period of time because the abusive behaviors kept pushing me away. I'm 37 now and can honestly say I don't care anymore. She will push you away; she will use you up until you are miserable in your own life just so she can feed the insatiable hole inside her. She will not take pity on you in the end, because it really is all about her. . . . The nice mother is hard to let go of, but you need to realize that she really is broken and the crazy, hateful mother will never go away. It seems to get worse as they age. . . loosing your life and your happiness is not worth the times she is rational and " normal " - at least it isn't for me. I think you're afraid because she has conditioned you to be afraid. She NEEDS you and it is like removing an organ to take her out of your head, but if you had cancer that was eating away at you - you would remove it even if it meant losing an arm or another body part - to save the rest of you. BPD mothers seem to me like a cancer that will continue to destroy you. . .they don't know they're doing it so we feel compassion for their problem but they can't stop so you have to be the one who is strong. Maybe you'd get lucky and she'd get help. . . maybe not, but letting the cancer kill you is your choice and your choice alone. Everyone else can be there to encourage you but you have to be the one to decide you want to live a normal, healthy life despite her. . . I've been NC since July and it really is very hard to deal with. But after I went NC she has made NO attempt to continue the relationship, NO attempt to see the grandkids - other than showing up at my DH's game to look miserable and pathetic so I would apologize to her - and when I didn't she stomped off. It is very revealing to watch her reaction to this because a " normal " mother would be bending over backwards to find out what she had done to hurt me but my Crazy Maker is only interested in her own feelings and her own needs. . . .and always will be. jwjrenslow@...> jwjrenslow@... _____ From: WTOAdultChildren1 [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of jtenny17 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 9:36 AM To: WTOAdultChildren1 Subject: Confused about letting go I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than her. Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to let her in. Wow, this is so hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 I definitely hear you, . I think we are all hard-wired to need moms, which is why it's such a tragedy either when you lose yours, or when yours doesn't fulfill the role as well as she should (or at all).   And I am figuring out that there are such wildly varying degrees of BPD that when you have a mom who is capable of being loving and caring, it makes it all the harder to separate when she is piling on guilt, shame and misery. I've wondered if it would just be easier to figure out what to do if she had beat me, or if she had been more outwardly dysfunctional, like being a raging alcoholic or something. Not that I would want that for anyone -- but I do wonder if it's easier to walk away from moms like that.   I love my Dr. Jekyll mom, but I could throttle my Mr. Hyde mom.  I think I'm exactly where you are -- I know I need to separate, I know it's futile to expect more from my mom than she can give, but by separating, I'm mourning the loss of the mom I had some of the time. And yes, I'm feeling guilt over " abandoning " her as well. But I do have to keep asking myself if I would let anyone else in my life treat me the way my mom does, and the answer is a resounding no, so I have to trust my gut and know that I can't fix what is broken between us.  A big hug to you as you struggle through this. You're not alone.  You are so right -- this is really, really hard.  People are impatient with me, too. Subject: Confused about letting go To: WTOAdultChildren1 Date: Thursday, September 13, 2012, 10:36 AM  I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than her. Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to let her in. Wow, this is so hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Hi , This scenario is mine exactly! It's so weird to read posts on here that could have been written by me to the tee. So my thoughts on the emotional bounderies are that it's not a black and white situation. You have to take one day at a time. You don't, however, ever let your guard down, meaning, when she's nice, scoop it up, and be your lovely normal self. When she's mean, let her know that you will not speak to her until she calms down and ends the mean behavior. What I do is email her that I will not answer the phone or emails if they are aggressive, mean or accusatory. Let me know when you are through this and I will be glad to talk. The toughest one to get through for me is the sad " waif " nada. This is where my over active empathy buttons get pushed (weird flea that I have of crying when I see other people cry). It's so hard for me to let her be alone when she is crying, sobbing, hysterical about something that someone said when she was 10 or whatever (this just happened yesterday) She feels things like they were happening right this very minute. And she feels them in such an amped up inappropriate level that it is impossible to talk rationally with her (really it is only possible to talk rationally when she is the normal nice calm nada. (unfortunately rare nowadays at 83). And when she is in that very fragile state that the mean starts to come out when she doesn't know how to make the sad depressive thoughts go away - she then will start to lash out at me (only kid, 50 years old) to try to blame someone else for her sadness. It's so nuts but I am so used to the cycles now that I just back off and don't respond until normal nada surfaces. Yesterday, after 3 weeks of insanity whereby she stopped taking her antidepressants and antianxiety meds because she " forgot " , she was calm and said in an email (she's in an assisted living facility btw) : (Oh - I have added some comments in parenthesis here) <<<< " ....I spent the afternoon with a couple of dear friends, and I am alright now. Sorry I was such a drag, it is just that my relatives shocked the heck out of me yesterday. (she hasn't talked to her relatives for years) And I keep wondering what a 10 year old girl, fresh from living with Grandparents (in 1939) who were so wonderful could do to bring on such behavior, but then I have to realize who was behaving like that, (???her sister...or her grandmother??) I will just let them do what they do, (did - somewhere in the past, not yesterday like she is stating) and there is nothing I can do about it, but I love all of you, and I will try and behave myself. OK. Love Mom>>>> So - during this 3 weeks some of the nasty emails included her calling me and my husband PIGS (in a crazy Blair kind of voice) for taking her money (money that was in a shared account with me...that is half mine, that we actually didn't touch...so what she was saying was illogical) calling me 30 times a day, screaming and crying into the phone about what a horrible person I was/am...and how no one likes her...why does eveyone hate her.....then turning to some weird chain of events that happened when she was 10...then jumping back to how her sister abandoned her...blah blah blah... Anyway - you get the picture. So now, I just have to forget it all and pick up from a month ago, normal mom...and take her when I can get her. She often doesn't even remember what she says. And I have to keep remembering that she really truly can't help it. BPD is, for her, like a helmet of hate, sadness, self loathing, that comes over her, then lifts suddenly. The bummer though is that she will still find ways to justify her behavior...so I don't even bring up anything she says during these 2-3 week periods...and just move on, and not take it personally. (I do though, a bit still. During these times, there is a pit in my stomach that I can't shed. Working on that still.) Anyway - giving you (((HUGS))) and wishing you strength!! Hang in there! Lesley > I really hear you. I believe the " nice mother " is what keeps us hooked like > drugs addicts. I can be addicted to the highs and lows of a bpd easily. > Good luck. > > > >> ** >> >> >> I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing >> right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on >> setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I >> think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one >> minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly >> even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get >> roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a >> normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the >> peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy >> lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was >> a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for >> 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a >> few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our >> boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been >> happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think >> about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, >> I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see >> the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, >> picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than >> her. >> >> Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said >> what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in >> emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to >> let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own >> happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have >> nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are >> impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to >> let her in. Wow, this is so hard! >> >> >> >> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 It's really hard to let go when your BPD nada has her good days -- I think it's the old behaviorism " inconsistent reinforcement " at work. Basically, if your nada were vicious all the time, you'd find it relatively easy to get away (if you survived to be old enough.) And if she were nice all the time, of course, you wouldn't be afraid of what would happen if you needed to get some distance, so you would be able to get as much distance as you felt you needed to reach adult separation. But combine sometimes-nice, sometimes-vicious, and you get this setup where you keep going back, hoping for the " nice " but never being sure when or if she's going to show -- and being afraid of what the " vicious " will do if you actually break away completely. I think it's a really, really hard bond to break -- I have a lot of trouble with the same thing myself. I've been attending Al-Anon to work on " letting go " of my desire to " fix " my nada, and to try to de-condition myself from believing that there is ANYTHING I can do to make her stay " nice " all the time. There isn't, she won't, and although it's hard to give up that hope, it's the only real way to grow and separate properly, in my opinion. Not everyone benefits from Al-Anon (the groups vary a lot and you might not be able to find one that fits) but there's a heavy focus there on learning to give up the hope of control and " fixing " the messed-up person. You could also try reading " Codependent No More " by Melody Beattie -- I've known several people who found it helpful in breaking away from codependency. Codependency has various definitions in various places, but the one used in this book applies to us -- it's when it seems like the whole of your emotional existence is bound up in trying to control or fix someone in your life who you love but who is behaving in unacceptable ways that are driving you literally crazy. In Beattie's definition, you are codependent if you have come to believe that you can't be happy or live a good life unless someone else changes, and you get fixated on trying to force changes on someone else that can't be forced. Anyway, the spirit you are trying to cultivate is known as " detachment " in some circles, so you can try Googling that and seeing if any useful advice pops up too. Good luck with it. At least your therapist is trying to nudge you to detach -- the one I had before (that I dumped!) kept trying to insinuate that I should NOT detach from nada. So now I have a new therapist, thank God. -- Jen H. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Beth Marinucci rukenucci@...>wrote: > ** > > > I definitely hear you, . I think we are all hard-wired to need > moms, which is why it's such a tragedy either when you lose yours, or when > yours doesn't fulfill the role as well as she should (or at all). > > And I am figuring out that there are such wildly varying degrees of BPD > that when you have a mom who is capable of being loving and caring, it > makes it all the harder to separate when she is piling on guilt, shame and > misery. I've wondered if it would just be easier to figure out what to do > if she had beat me, or if she had been more outwardly dysfunctional, like > being a raging alcoholic or something. Not that I would want that for > anyone -- but I do wonder if it's easier to walk away from moms like > that. I love my Dr. Jekyll mom, but I could throttle my Mr. Hyde mom. > > I think I'm exactly where you are -- I know I need to separate, I know > it's futile to expect more from my mom than she can give, but by > separating, I'm mourning the loss of the mom I had some of the time. And > yes, I'm feeling guilt over " abandoning " her as well. But I do have to > keep asking myself if I would let anyone else in my life treat me the way > my mom does, and the answer is a resounding no, so I have to trust my gut > and know that I can't fix what is broken between us. > > A big hug to you as you struggle through this. You're not alone. > > You are so right -- this is really, really hard. > > People are impatient with me, too. > > > > > Subject: Confused about letting go > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Thursday, September 13, 2012, 10:36 AM > > > > > I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing > right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on > setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I > think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one > minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly > even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get > roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a > normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the > peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy > lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was > a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for > 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a > few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our > boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been > happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think > about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, > I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see > the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, > picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than > her. > > Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said > what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in > emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to > let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own > happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have > nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are > impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to > let her in. Wow, this is so hard! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 I meant to put this phrase in quotations.. " Let me know when you are through this and I will be glad to talk. " I tell my mom this usually one time...then don't respond until she's through her thing. I will though, when she does calm down, tell her that the way she speaks to me is unacceptable and that next time it happens I will not respond to her. But it is a cycle that has been set in stone for years and years...the difference is that I used to bite on, and go full tilt engaging which sent me to a terrible place in my daily life, caused severe depression, and made me an unstable mom. My twin daughters are 15 now, and I am slowly repairing some of the damage I have cause by them being around this insanity for a large portion of their lives. They didn't always hear the nutty exchanges but they did see me cry quite a bit, during conversations with her...and then the fall out afterwards was just not the best version of myself that they could have experienced. I am trying to give myself hugs though, knowing that I have done the best I knew how at the time. > Let me know when you are through this and I will be glad to talk. lesley anton handmade ceramic lighting lesley anton : utility lesleyanton.com studio cell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Just a comment on the term: its " intermittent reinforcement " and its the basis of gambling addiction. Even animal studies have shown that animals can become addicted to repetitively trying and trying to get a reward (in the form of a food pellet) if behavior " x " results in getting the reward infrequently and unpredictably. The addiction behavior experiment sets up a machine that dispenses a food pellet if the animal presses a lever down. At first, the animal is rewarded with the pellet each time it presses the lever. Next, the animal may have to press the lever two or three times before a pellet is delivered. Next, the dispensing of the reward pellet is randomized; it may come after one press, or perhaps after 5 presses, or perhaps after 20. The poor experimental animal is thereby motivated to keep pressing the lever until it drops from exhaustion, because the reward just might arrive after the next press and the animal will keep trying no matter how long it takes. I agree that intermittent reinforcement is very likely a factor keeping us " hooked " to an abusive parent (or an abusive spouse or other loved one) hoping that if we just walk on eggshells and just try harder to be a " better " spouse, daughter, friend, etc., that we will get that reward of normal, lucid, caring, " good mom " for a while. -Annie > > It's really hard to let go when your BPD nada has her good days -- I think > it's the old behaviorism " inconsistent reinforcement " at work. Basically, > if your nada were vicious all the time, you'd find it relatively easy to > get away (if you survived to be old enough.) And if she were nice all the > time, of course, you wouldn't be afraid of what would happen if you needed > to get some distance, so you would be able to get as much distance as you > felt you needed to reach adult separation. But combine sometimes-nice, > sometimes-vicious, and you get this setup where you keep going back, hoping > for the " nice " but never being sure when or if she's going to show -- and > being afraid of what the " vicious " will do if you actually break away > completely. I think it's a really, really hard bond to break -- I have a > lot of trouble with the same thing myself. I've been attending Al-Anon to > work on " letting go " of my desire to " fix " my nada, and to try to > de-condition myself from believing that there is ANYTHING I can do to make > her stay " nice " all the time. There isn't, she won't, and although it's > hard to give up that hope, it's the only real way to grow and separate > properly, in my opinion. Not everyone benefits from Al-Anon (the groups > vary a lot and you might not be able to find one that fits) but there's a > heavy focus there on learning to give up the hope of control and " fixing " > the messed-up person. > > You could also try reading " Codependent No More " by Melody Beattie -- I've > known several people who found it helpful in breaking away from > codependency. Codependency has various definitions in various places, but > the one used in this book applies to us -- it's when it seems like the > whole of your emotional existence is bound up in trying to control or fix > someone in your life who you love but who is behaving in unacceptable ways > that are driving you literally crazy. In Beattie's definition, you are > codependent if you have come to believe that you can't be happy or live a > good life unless someone else changes, and you get fixated on trying to > force changes on someone else that can't be forced. > > Anyway, the spirit you are trying to cultivate is known as " detachment " in > some circles, so you can try Googling that and seeing if any useful advice > pops up too. > > Good luck with it. At least your therapist is trying to nudge you to detach > -- the one I had before (that I dumped!) kept trying to insinuate that I > should NOT detach from nada. So now I have a new therapist, thank God. > > -- Jen H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Hi and Everyone, In retrospect, as a widow, what I regret the most were the times that I gave nada thought and allowed her negativity to influence my marriage.  The time that I had with my husband and his unconditional love was a gift.  And the truth is that nada was not deserving of ANY space in my life. -L ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 8:59 AM Subject: RE: Confused about letting go  I was where you were at before I found out about BPD. . . I didn't have a therapist to guide and push me but I continually went back for more because she is my mother and that is what I'm supposed to do. I felt bad, too, that she needs love and I'm her daughter and I have a responsibility toward her - especially since I have kids she loves too. However, I found out about BPD in July and after reading some of the books about BPD and understanding how their mind works has helped me to see that her " love " for me isn't what I feel for my kids. It is motivated purely by selfishness and a need to fill her " hole " inside. All her craziness comes from feeling like her needs are not being met or her need to blow of the steam from the pressure cooker that is always boiling inside her. That's what motivates the under-handed, sneaky digs at people and the rudeness toward innocent people - not to mention the rages. It really isn't about shutting her out; it is about putting boundaries in place to show them their behavior is harmful to others and that it really isn't okay. You have to protect yourself from ruining your relationship with your husband; you have to protect any potential children you may have from her abusiveness. (Assuming you don't have them now). I was able to separate from her emotionally over a very long period of time because the abusive behaviors kept pushing me away. I'm 37 now and can honestly say I don't care anymore. She will push you away; she will use you up until you are miserable in your own life just so she can feed the insatiable hole inside her. She will not take pity on you in the end, because it really is all about her. . . . The nice mother is hard to let go of, but you need to realize that she really is broken and the crazy, hateful mother will never go away. It seems to get worse as they age. . . loosing your life and your happiness is not worth the times she is rational and " normal " - at least it isn't for me. I think you're afraid because she has conditioned you to be afraid. She NEEDS you and it is like removing an organ to take her out of your head, but if you had cancer that was eating away at you - you would remove it even if it meant losing an arm or another body part - to save the rest of you. BPD mothers seem to me like a cancer that will continue to destroy you. . .they don't know they're doing it so we feel compassion for their problem but they can't stop so you have to be the one who is strong. Maybe you'd get lucky and she'd get help. . . maybe not, but letting the cancer kill you is your choice and your choice alone. Everyone else can be there to encourage you but you have to be the one to decide you want to live a normal, healthy life despite her. . . I've been NC since July and it really is very hard to deal with. But after I went NC she has made NO attempt to continue the relationship, NO attempt to see the grandkids - other than showing up at my DH's game to look miserable and pathetic so I would apologize to her - and when I didn't she stomped off. It is very revealing to watch her reaction to this because a " normal " mother would be bending over backwards to find out what she had done to hurt me but my Crazy Maker is only interested in her own feelings and her own needs. . . .and always will be. jwjrenslow@...> jwjrenslow@... _____ From: WTOAdultChildren1 [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of jtenny17 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 9:36 AM To: WTOAdultChildren1 Subject: Confused about letting go I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than her. Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to let her in. Wow, this is so hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Hi and Everyone, You can " love " your nada and have " compassion " for her mental illness and the suffering in her life that caused it. Then one can, possibly, " Let Go " . There is no cause for " Guilt " . Yet, I am struggling with these issues right now. -L ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 8:36 AM Subject: Confused about letting go  I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than her. Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to let her in. Wow, this is so hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Totally understandable to have fears about letting go of mom. It's not unthinkable; we all innately need mothers. Even if yours is BPD she's still your mom. Have you considered baby steps in the form of enforcing boundaries stricltly as a way of distancing/protecting yourself? See how things go from there and later you can always change you mind to continue limited contact, or not. That's the beauty of being an adult, we get to change our minds. Coping with BPD is a process, we have to feel it out as we go. Take your time with your own feelings. Doing it on your own terms in your own time is allowed Hugs HF PS: I have a waify/witchy needy nada and I successfully created new boundaries with her. We now have a healther, if limited relationship but it was possible. Difficult at first, worth it in the end. The process is never simple. The good news is I didn't have to let her go completely but am now free of her guilt trips and manipulations (mostly!!). She's alright too as her fears of outright abandonment aren't as intense now that there's boundaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Yes, I can relate. I have the same feelings. When my Nada is good she can be very nice and caring but when she drinks and feels bad she gets mean, and ugly. I really like what said about setting the boundaries and knowing that Nada's cycle thru being nasty then nice. Trying not to take the nasty things they say to heart is the hard part. Once you can detach from what they are saying when they are acting ugly it gets easier. I am an only child so I haven't gone total NC since Nada has no one else in her life right now and is getting older. What is working for me now is exactly what said, I go NC when she is acting up and then resume contact when she starts acting normal again. I did set the boundary and told her that I won't respond to nasty calls and that if she wants me in her life she has to be nice. Then I backed it up by not responding to nasty phone calls and hanging up when she was mean. This hasn't prevented all episodes but It is minimizing them. I also live a 1,000 miles away from nada and this helps a lot because I am able to hang up the phone and not worry she will show up at my door. Tracey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 I only recently became a member of this group; and though I haven't posted often, I have been reading the posts from others detailing their personal " roller coaster ride " so many (if not all) of us have on a daily basis with our nadas. Though the intimate details vary, the common threads of hurt, loss, confusion, and longing for a peaceful existance bind us together. I am so thankful to have found this " safe place to fall " after so many years of feeling like no one would ever understand what my relationship with my mom was really like. I have gone from a child trying desperately to please to sn adult still struggling to make my mother happy. She is such a blend of the personalities, and can move so quickly from one to another that it makes my head spin. Just when I become so frustrated with the " witch " the " waif " appears. It's like a wrestling match where I am constantly weaving and bobbing to miss the punches...all the while clutching desperately to the ropes to keep from falling down for the count. That's why I felt like I had to respond on this particular thread. I have such a hard time setting boundaries with her because of her constant changes. Even though I am 55, since she lives beside me and I am an only child, I feel a tremendous sense of responsibility for her. She is constantly telling me how lonely she is, and even if I have spent all my free time with her, she will say I never have time for her. (don't leave me). Then of course there will be the reverse when she finds out my husband is home from a run (he is a truck driver) and she will say with such venom, " oh you go spend time with your husband. I know I have to be all alone because you have plans with him. " . (i hate you). She is so obviously jealous of any love that I get from him because she wants a man in her life. And the crazy thing is, I can't let myself be happy unless she is peaceful. That is another reason for this post...I suddenly saw myself without him and realized all the precious time I was wasting worrying about her. I now know I have got to make some boundries and start enjoying my marriage before it is too late. But with her failing health, it is really hard. D Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 YES! I have been struggling with this same dance for years. We humans have the ability to be so hopeful. After finally figuring out my mom is BPD and reading about the condition, plus my moms advanced age, I had to face the reality that she was as good as it was ever gonna get. There is no hope for change or a better existence with her. I am not as detached as I want to be, but I am farther along now than I ever thought I would be. And for te record, I was the enmeshed daughter. > > I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than her. > > Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to let her in. Wow, this is so hard! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Lesley, I am just picking up one thread here about how you have a " wierd flea " that has you crying when other people cry. I have observed this behavior in the oldest child of my NPD half aunt. NPD half aunt was crying and oldest daughter like clockwork started crying right away. This is before I knew about NPD and I'm not a mother so perhaps it is normal mother/daughter mirroring, but I had a chill down my spine watching it and now I do think that it has something to do with the compliant child having to mirror her mother's pain to get affection. I have an idea that you were expected to share Nada's pain (far-fetched I know) as a child and when other people cry in front of you, your conditioned " over-empathy " meter (or what we could say is boundaries right? the same one our therapists have to employ so they don't want to go home and take out a shopping mall after hearing all our stories, the healthy boundary to keep from taking others pain as our own) kicks in like clockwork. I could be off base but when I read that line I immediately thought of that incident. Jaleo And to all of you, I do not envy your positions one bit (as my Nada is deceased), and I do want to say that the most common commonality between your stories is how much pain YOU all are in too. Be compassionate with yourselves. (it helps me to actually think of me as a child, in so many ways I am still so not too hard! ; )) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Intermittent Reinforcement: I found with my own NADA that when she felt (and are not our BPDs soooo energetically sensitive?) me moving away and detaching from her emotionally, she would make an effort to do something nice for me. Luckily for my individuation it didn't happen too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 hi , I can completely relate to your post. My entire adult life, up to about 3 years ago (I am 45) has been a tug of war between allegiance to my mother and loyalty to my marriage. Like yourself, I would get " roped in " by occasional good behavior on my mother's part that I was afraid to disrupt. I would wake up thinking about having to call her, if I was on vacation and hadn't called her that day, I felt guilt and would call her right away and agree with her guilty admonishment of how could I make her worry so much, if I spent a holiday at my in-laws, I sucked down the jealous undertones of what a lonely day she'd spent with my father while we were at my in-laws, etc., even though they'd been invited and chose not to come. You said about yourself, " Why do I continue to sacrifice my own happiness for her? " That's an excellent question. We don't have to. I remind myself that my mother was allowed to raise her kids as she saw fit, go about her life without having to check in daily with her mother like with a probation officer, without having to explain her every decision to her mother. I'm not surprised your mother did not like that you fell in love. My parents did not like that I got married and my nada, in particular, was nasty and constantly telling me how my husband was running my life, etc. I realize now that what she didn't like was that SHE was no longer running my life, that she was no longer the star of the show, that now my husband was first in my life and that he was my confidant. i've also done, as you described, the projecting of anger onto my spouse instead of where it belonged: on my mother. One time--I had been married not even a year--my husband and I were out all day showing good friends from out of town the big city. We were out all day. When I got home, there were NINE voicemails from her, and an amused one from my father in law, saying that my mother was freaking out and I'd better call her. She could not believe that I had only called her ONCE that whole day and how could I make her worry so much. I sobbed that night. I thought, " why do I have to live with this misery??? why can't I have my own life, my own thoughts, why can't i stay out all night if I freaking want to!?? I'm 26 years old?! " I didn't yet get that *I* had a say in it. I just lived with it and was impatient with my husband when he would ask why I didn't just say something. With my mother, there is no " saying something. " There is no conversation, dialogue, or Hallmark moments. If something hard has to be said, it will be a screaming match. That is why whenever I have something difficult to say to her, I put in writing. I think it's great that you are seeing a therapist, . i really wish I had back the last 20 years, that I could have started my marriage off without a 3rd person calling shots in it. Especially if you and your spouse choose to have kids, I think it's great that you're working these issues out before they are introduced into the picture. Take good care! Fiona > > I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than her. > > Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to let her in. Wow, this is so hard! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 There's another issue I think that enhances the effects of intermittent reinforcement for children of abusive parents- children are helpless and needy. Children will literally die without a caretaker, but beyond that humans do a huge amount of brain development after birth. They need an adult to guide them through emotional, social, and cognitive developmental stages so that they can become successful, functional adults. I think as adults we imagine that the most horrible thing in life is the deep shame and belief that we are defective and worthless. This may be true in adult life, but not in childhood. The most painful, terrifying possible situation for a child is the perception that their needs will not be met. My parents did feed me, but they did not meet my needs for emotional or social development. As an adult, I have profound deficits in forming and sustaining meaningful relationships with other people, and I have never felt like a real person who can participate in real life. I had two choices as a child. I could grasp the fact that my parents were incompetent to raise a child and would actively prevent me from accomplishing basic developmental tasks, leaving me damaged and dysfunctional in adulthood. Or, I could believe that I had good, kind, and loving parents who were taking great care of me despite the fact that I was born with serious character flaws and mental problems. It's actually an obvious choice if you think about it. A loving parent is a basic need of all children, and we keep desperately longing for one forever. I'm still overwhelmed with grief at the realization that my nada did not love me and never will, and that it is way too late for me to receive the love I needed in childhood. Even if my nada got intensive treatment and started to treat me with love and respect, it's 30 years too late and the damage is already done. Understanding this has helped me to stop trying to have a relationship with her. Someone mentioned AlAnon, which is a good idea. I've been going to Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings, and it's been a godsend. ACA is different from AlAnon in that instead of focusing on your relationship to the dysfunctional person, the focus is on overcoming the damage. For me it's been good to get the focus off nada and on to me- check this list and see if you relate: http://www.adultchildren.org/lit/Laundry_List.php. > > > > It's really hard to let go when your BPD nada has her good days -- I think > > it's the old behaviorism " inconsistent reinforcement " at work. Basically, > > if your nada were vicious all the time, you'd find it relatively easy to > > get away (if you survived to be old enough.) And if she were nice all the > > time, of course, you wouldn't be afraid of what would happen if you needed > > to get some distance, so you would be able to get as much distance as you > > felt you needed to reach adult separation. But combine sometimes-nice, > > sometimes-vicious, and you get this setup where you keep going back, hoping > > for the " nice " but never being sure when or if she's going to show -- and > > being afraid of what the " vicious " will do if you actually break away > > completely. I think it's a really, really hard bond to break -- I have a > > lot of trouble with the same thing myself. I've been attending Al-Anon to > > work on " letting go " of my desire to " fix " my nada, and to try to > > de-condition myself from believing that there is ANYTHING I can do to make > > her stay " nice " all the time. There isn't, she won't, and although it's > > hard to give up that hope, it's the only real way to grow and separate > > properly, in my opinion. Not everyone benefits from Al-Anon (the groups > > vary a lot and you might not be able to find one that fits) but there's a > > heavy focus there on learning to give up the hope of control and " fixing " > > the messed-up person. > > > > You could also try reading " Codependent No More " by Melody Beattie -- I've > > known several people who found it helpful in breaking away from > > codependency. Codependency has various definitions in various places, but > > the one used in this book applies to us -- it's when it seems like the > > whole of your emotional existence is bound up in trying to control or fix > > someone in your life who you love but who is behaving in unacceptable ways > > that are driving you literally crazy. In Beattie's definition, you are > > codependent if you have come to believe that you can't be happy or live a > > good life unless someone else changes, and you get fixated on trying to > > force changes on someone else that can't be forced. > > > > Anyway, the spirit you are trying to cultivate is known as " detachment " in > > some circles, so you can try Googling that and seeing if any useful advice > > pops up too. > > > > Good luck with it. At least your therapist is trying to nudge you to detach > > -- the one I had before (that I dumped!) kept trying to insinuate that I > > should NOT detach from nada. So now I have a new therapist, thank God. > > > > -- Jen H. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Yes, I understand what you're going through. My mom is a really neat person when she's normal. And she loves my kids and tries to be very normal with them. So I can't do " no contact " or let go completely.  However, what I have done is to let go of my expectations of her being a " mom. " I did some activities to " grieve " the loss of my mother. I also just joined a small church group and specifically asked that I be placed in a group with women my mom's age. I'm working on establishing a relationship with my mom that's good for my kids and won't hurt me. And I'm hoping to get some " motherly " advice and modeling from older women at church. I'm planning to interact with my mom on a certain level, and if I'd like some deeper conversations, I'll have someone else to go to.  I hope this helps. ________________________________  To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 8:36 AM Subject: Confused about letting go  I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than her. Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to let her in. Wow, this is so hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Sounds like a great idea, ! I'll have to look into finding some older ladies to talk to. I always feel at a loss when it comes to raising my kids. . . Good luck with that plan!! jwjrenslow@...> jwjrenslow@... _____ From: WTOAdultChildren1 [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of Sommer Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 7:38 AM To: WTOAdultChildren1 Subject: Re: Confused about letting go Yes, I understand what you're going through. My mom is a really neat person when she's normal. And she loves my kids and tries to be very normal with them. So I can't do " no contact " or let go completely. However, what I have done is to let go of my expectations of her being a " mom. " I did some activities to " grieve " the loss of my mother. I also just joined a small church group and specifically asked that I be placed in a group with women my mom's age. I'm working on establishing a relationship with my mom that's good for my kids and won't hurt me. And I'm hoping to get some " motherly " advice and modeling from older women at church. I'm planning to interact with my mom on a certain level, and if I'd like some deeper conversations, I'll have someone else to go to. I hope this helps. ________________________________ From: jtenny17 tomlij1@... > To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 8:36 AM Subject: Confused about letting go I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than her. Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to let her in. Wow, this is so hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 SR, this is what I'm wondering. You mention when the BPD senses youre pulling away, they " get nice " . When you're fed up, they change the character their playing. I am wondering if that " nice " side is real at all. And: Since my " first love " was my parents that's what love looks like deep down: a crazy sadistic game playing creep who can be fake nice at times. And I eat up that fakeness and feel somehow that I am actually being treated well. So I kick in to my childhood delusions. When they're " nice " I feel sooooo good. It's like a drug. On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:25 AM, elmtree_speaks elmtree_speaks@...>wrote: > ** > > > There's another issue I think that enhances the effects of intermittent > reinforcement for children of abusive parents- children are helpless and > needy. Children will literally die without a caretaker, but beyond that > humans do a huge amount of brain development after birth. They need an > adult to guide them through emotional, social, and cognitive developmental > stages so that they can become successful, functional adults. > > I think as adults we imagine that the most horrible thing in life is the > deep shame and belief that we are defective and worthless. This may be true > in adult life, but not in childhood. The most painful, terrifying possible > situation for a child is the perception that their needs will not be met. > My parents did feed me, but they did not meet my needs for emotional or > social development. As an adult, I have profound deficits in forming and > sustaining meaningful relationships with other people, and I have never > felt like a real person who can participate in real life. > > I had two choices as a child. I could grasp the fact that my parents were > incompetent to raise a child and would actively prevent me from > accomplishing basic developmental tasks, leaving me damaged and > dysfunctional in adulthood. Or, I could believe that I had good, kind, and > loving parents who were taking great care of me despite the fact that I was > born with serious character flaws and mental problems. > It's actually an obvious choice if you think about it. > > A loving parent is a basic need of all children, and we keep desperately > longing for one forever. I'm still overwhelmed with grief at the > realization that my nada did not love me and never will, and that it is way > too late for me to receive the love I needed in childhood. Even if my nada > got intensive treatment and started to treat me with love and respect, it's > 30 years too late and the damage is already done. Understanding this has > helped me to stop trying to have a relationship with her. > > Someone mentioned AlAnon, which is a good idea. I've been going to Adult > Children of Alcoholics meetings, and it's been a godsend. ACA is different > from AlAnon in that instead of focusing on your relationship to the > dysfunctional person, the focus is on overcoming the damage. For me it's > been good to get the focus off nada and on to me- check this list and see > if you relate: http://www.adultchildren.org/lit/Laundry_List.php. > > > > > > > > It's really hard to let go when your BPD nada has her good days -- I > think > > > it's the old behaviorism " inconsistent reinforcement " at work. > Basically, > > > if your nada were vicious all the time, you'd find it relatively easy > to > > > get away (if you survived to be old enough.) And if she were nice all > the > > > time, of course, you wouldn't be afraid of what would happen if you > needed > > > to get some distance, so you would be able to get as much distance as > you > > > felt you needed to reach adult separation. But combine sometimes-nice, > > > sometimes-vicious, and you get this setup where you keep going back, > hoping > > > for the " nice " but never being sure when or if she's going to show -- > and > > > being afraid of what the " vicious " will do if you actually break away > > > completely. I think it's a really, really hard bond to break -- I have > a > > > lot of trouble with the same thing myself. I've been attending Al-Anon > to > > > work on " letting go " of my desire to " fix " my nada, and to try to > > > de-condition myself from believing that there is ANYTHING I can do to > make > > > her stay " nice " all the time. There isn't, she won't, and although it's > > > hard to give up that hope, it's the only real way to grow and separate > > > properly, in my opinion. Not everyone benefits from Al-Anon (the groups > > > vary a lot and you might not be able to find one that fits) but > there's a > > > heavy focus there on learning to give up the hope of control and > " fixing " > > > the messed-up person. > > > > > > You could also try reading " Codependent No More " by Melody Beattie -- > I've > > > known several people who found it helpful in breaking away from > > > codependency. Codependency has various definitions in various places, > but > > > the one used in this book applies to us -- it's when it seems like the > > > whole of your emotional existence is bound up in trying to control or > fix > > > someone in your life who you love but who is behaving in unacceptable > ways > > > that are driving you literally crazy. In Beattie's definition, you are > > > codependent if you have come to believe that you can't be happy or > live a > > > good life unless someone else changes, and you get fixated on trying to > > > force changes on someone else that can't be forced. > > > > > > Anyway, the spirit you are trying to cultivate is known as > " detachment " in > > > some circles, so you can try Googling that and seeing if any useful > advice > > > pops up too. > > > > > > Good luck with it. At least your therapist is trying to nudge you to > detach > > > -- the one I had before (that I dumped!) kept trying to insinuate that > I > > > should NOT detach from nada. So now I have a new therapist, thank God. > > > > > > -- Jen H. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 It reminds me of the women who always go back to the abusive husband. . . you can't understand it unless you've been there. jwjrenslow@... Re: Re: Confused about letting go SR, this is what I'm wondering. You mention when the BPD senses youre pulling away, they " get nice " . When you're fed up, they change the character their playing. I am wondering if that " nice " side is real at all. And: Since my " first love " was my parents that's what love looks like deep down: a crazy sadistic game playing creep who can be fake nice at times. And I eat up that fakeness and feel somehow that I am actually being treated well. So I kick in to my childhood delusions. When they're " nice " I feel sooooo good. It's like a drug. On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:25 AM, elmtree_speaks elmtree_speaks@...>wrote: > ** > > > There's another issue I think that enhances the effects of intermittent > reinforcement for children of abusive parents- children are helpless and > needy. Children will literally die without a caretaker, but beyond that > humans do a huge amount of brain development after birth. They need an > adult to guide them through emotional, social, and cognitive developmental > stages so that they can become successful, functional adults. > > I think as adults we imagine that the most horrible thing in life is the > deep shame and belief that we are defective and worthless. This may be true > in adult life, but not in childhood. The most painful, terrifying possible > situation for a child is the perception that their needs will not be met. > My parents did feed me, but they did not meet my needs for emotional or > social development. As an adult, I have profound deficits in forming and > sustaining meaningful relationships with other people, and I have never > felt like a real person who can participate in real life. > > I had two choices as a child. I could grasp the fact that my parents were > incompetent to raise a child and would actively prevent me from > accomplishing basic developmental tasks, leaving me damaged and > dysfunctional in adulthood. Or, I could believe that I had good, kind, and > loving parents who were taking great care of me despite the fact that I was > born with serious character flaws and mental problems. > It's actually an obvious choice if you think about it. > > A loving parent is a basic need of all children, and we keep desperately > longing for one forever. I'm still overwhelmed with grief at the > realization that my nada did not love me and never will, and that it is way > too late for me to receive the love I needed in childhood. Even if my nada > got intensive treatment and started to treat me with love and respect, it's > 30 years too late and the damage is already done. Understanding this has > helped me to stop trying to have a relationship with her. > > Someone mentioned AlAnon, which is a good idea. I've been going to Adult > Children of Alcoholics meetings, and it's been a godsend. ACA is different > from AlAnon in that instead of focusing on your relationship to the > dysfunctional person, the focus is on overcoming the damage. For me it's > been good to get the focus off nada and on to me- check this list and see > if you relate: http://www.adultchildren.org/lit/Laundry_List.php. > > > > > > > > It's really hard to let go when your BPD nada has her good days -- I > think > > > it's the old behaviorism " inconsistent reinforcement " at work. > Basically, > > > if your nada were vicious all the time, you'd find it relatively easy > to > > > get away (if you survived to be old enough.) And if she were nice all > the > > > time, of course, you wouldn't be afraid of what would happen if you > needed > > > to get some distance, so you would be able to get as much distance as > you > > > felt you needed to reach adult separation. But combine sometimes-nice, > > > sometimes-vicious, and you get this setup where you keep going back, > hoping > > > for the " nice " but never being sure when or if she's going to show -- > and > > > being afraid of what the " vicious " will do if you actually break away > > > completely. I think it's a really, really hard bond to break -- I have > a > > > lot of trouble with the same thing myself. I've been attending Al-Anon > to > > > work on " letting go " of my desire to " fix " my nada, and to try to > > > de-condition myself from believing that there is ANYTHING I can do to > make > > > her stay " nice " all the time. There isn't, she won't, and although it's > > > hard to give up that hope, it's the only real way to grow and separate > > > properly, in my opinion. Not everyone benefits from Al-Anon (the groups > > > vary a lot and you might not be able to find one that fits) but > there's a > > > heavy focus there on learning to give up the hope of control and > " fixing " > > > the messed-up person. > > > > > > You could also try reading " Codependent No More " by Melody Beattie -- > I've > > > known several people who found it helpful in breaking away from > > > codependency. Codependency has various definitions in various places, > but > > > the one used in this book applies to us -- it's when it seems like the > > > whole of your emotional existence is bound up in trying to control or > fix > > > someone in your life who you love but who is behaving in unacceptable > ways > > > that are driving you literally crazy. In Beattie's definition, you are > > > codependent if you have come to believe that you can't be happy or > live a > > > good life unless someone else changes, and you get fixated on trying to > > > force changes on someone else that can't be forced. > > > > > > Anyway, the spirit you are trying to cultivate is known as > " detachment " in > > > some circles, so you can try Googling that and seeing if any useful > advice > > > pops up too. > > > > > > Good luck with it. At least your therapist is trying to nudge you to > detach > > > -- the one I had before (that I dumped!) kept trying to insinuate that > I > > > should NOT detach from nada. So now I have a new therapist, thank God. > > > > > > -- Jen H. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 And about " remorse " they will occasionally demonstrate. Since they are really into being manipulative, Fionas mother might not have been saying, " I'm doing something wrong " as in I'm not a good person. She might have been saying " I'm doing something wrong " , my manipulations is not as effective as I'd like them to be. Their goal is to control others. If people don't stick around on their terms, they're doing it wrong. And I suppose they might try to figure that nut out. On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Millicent Kunstler < millicentkunstler@...> wrote: > SR, this is what I'm wondering. You mention when the BPD senses youre > pulling away, they " get nice " . When you're fed up, they change the > character their playing. I am wondering if that " nice " side is real at all. > t t > And: > > Since my " first love " was my parents that's what love looks like deep > down: a crazy sadistic game playing creep who can be fake nice at times. > > And I eat up that fakeness and feel somehow that I am actually being > treated well. So I kick in to my childhood delusions. When they're " nice " I > feel sooooo good. It's like a drug. > > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:25 AM, elmtree_speaks elmtree_speaks@...>wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> There's another issue I think that enhances the effects of intermittent >> reinforcement for children of abusive parents- children are helpless and >> needy. Children will literally die without a caretaker, but beyond that >> humans do a huge amount of brain development after birth. They need an >> adult to guide them through emotional, social, and cognitive developmental >> stages so that they can become successful, functional adults. >> >> I think as adults we imagine that the most horrible thing in life is the >> deep shame and belief that we are defective and worthless. This may be true >> in adult life, but not in childhood. The most painful, terrifying possible >> situation for a child is the perception that their needs will not be met. >> My parents did feed me, but they did not meet my needs for emotional or >> social development. As an adult, I have profound deficits in forming and >> sustaining meaningful relationships with other people, and I have never >> felt like a real person who can participate in real life. >> >> I had two choices as a child. I could grasp the fact that my parents were >> incompetent to raise a child and would actively prevent me from >> accomplishing basic developmental tasks, leaving me damaged and >> dysfunctional in adulthood. Or, I could believe that I had good, kind, and >> loving parents who were taking great care of me despite the fact that I was >> born with serious character flaws and mental problems. >> It's actually an obvious choice if you think about it. >> >> A loving parent is a basic need of all children, and we keep desperately >> longing for one forever. I'm still overwhelmed with grief at the >> realization that my nada did not love me and never will, and that it is way >> too late for me to receive the love I needed in childhood. Even if my nada >> got intensive treatment and started to treat me with love and respect, it's >> 30 years too late and the damage is already done. Understanding this has >> helped me to stop trying to have a relationship with her. >> >> Someone mentioned AlAnon, which is a good idea. I've been going to Adult >> Children of Alcoholics meetings, and it's been a godsend. ACA is different >> from AlAnon in that instead of focusing on your relationship to the >> dysfunctional person, the focus is on overcoming the damage. For me it's >> been good to get the focus off nada and on to me- check this list and see >> if you relate: http://www.adultchildren.org/lit/Laundry_List.php. >> >> >> > > >> > > It's really hard to let go when your BPD nada has her good days -- I >> think >> > > it's the old behaviorism " inconsistent reinforcement " at work. >> Basically, >> > > if your nada were vicious all the time, you'd find it relatively easy >> to >> > > get away (if you survived to be old enough.) And if she were nice all >> the >> > > time, of course, you wouldn't be afraid of what would happen if you >> needed >> > > to get some distance, so you would be able to get as much distance as >> you >> > > felt you needed to reach adult separation. But combine sometimes-nice, >> > > sometimes-vicious, and you get this setup where you keep going back, >> hoping >> > > for the " nice " but never being sure when or if she's going to show -- >> and >> > > being afraid of what the " vicious " will do if you actually break away >> > > completely. I think it's a really, really hard bond to break -- I >> have a >> > > lot of trouble with the same thing myself. I've been attending >> Al-Anon to >> > > work on " letting go " of my desire to " fix " my nada, and to try to >> > > de-condition myself from believing that there is ANYTHING I can do to >> make >> > > her stay " nice " all the time. There isn't, she won't, and although >> it's >> > > hard to give up that hope, it's the only real way to grow and separate >> > > properly, in my opinion. Not everyone benefits from Al-Anon (the >> groups >> > > vary a lot and you might not be able to find one that fits) but >> there's a >> > > heavy focus there on learning to give up the hope of control and >> " fixing " >> > > the messed-up person. >> > > >> > > You could also try reading " Codependent No More " by Melody Beattie -- >> I've >> > > known several people who found it helpful in breaking away from >> > > codependency. Codependency has various definitions in various places, >> but >> > > the one used in this book applies to us -- it's when it seems like the >> > > whole of your emotional existence is bound up in trying to control or >> fix >> > > someone in your life who you love but who is behaving in unacceptable >> ways >> > > that are driving you literally crazy. In Beattie's definition, you are >> > > codependent if you have come to believe that you can't be happy or >> live a >> > > good life unless someone else changes, and you get fixated on trying >> to >> > > force changes on someone else that can't be forced. >> > > >> > > Anyway, the spirit you are trying to cultivate is known as >> " detachment " in >> > > some circles, so you can try Googling that and seeing if any useful >> advice >> > > pops up too. >> > > >> > > Good luck with it. At least your therapist is trying to nudge you to >> detach >> > > -- the one I had before (that I dumped!) kept trying to insinuate >> that I >> > > should NOT detach from nada. So now I have a new therapist, thank God. >> > > >> > > -- Jen H. >> > >> >> >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 , That is part of the agony of being a KO. My own Nada, some 38 years ago, took me aside on the afternoon before I married my wife to say " Just whatever you do, don t let her take my little boy away from me " I was aghast. Some encouragement! I was thinking, lady, I don t know what you are thinking, but I m planning to have sex with that woman tomorrow night! I think your little boy is gone. I m 20 years old, I m a sailor, and I m about to marry my sweetheart. SHIT! It took me many years to figure out the right balance, but here is 50 years worth of work condensed for you , free. ( You can buy the book when it comes out. ) She will never be the adult. You must always be the adult, or be the victim of her manipulations and neediness. If you wish to have a life, and get to be an adult, and be a wife, lover, and companion to that man you fell in love with ( Oh Please do. Dont let her rob you of relationships, just because she cannot have them.) then you MUST be the one to constantly be saying, no mom, sorry, this far and no further. I ll talk to you and visit you, but if you start to pressure me about it and steal from my relationship, I will cut short the visit or phone call. Every time. Without fail. You will ALWAYS have to be the one to keep it sane. That sucks. You ouight to be able to look forward to her age and wisdom helping you through hard spots in life and love. But you cant. She is always going to be a needy 3 year old, and since You are the adult, you get to, have to decide when to come home from the circus. That s not fair. That sucks. But it is your choice. As much as you wish it, you cannot make her choose to heal and grow. But you can choose it for yourself. Oh choose it. Heal. Grow. Live your life. No FOG. Doug > > I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than her. > > Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to let her in. Wow, this is so hard! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:25 AM, elmtree_speaks elmtree_speaks@...>wrote: > ** > > > > Someone mentioned AlAnon, which is a good idea. I've been going to Adult > Children of Alcoholics meetings, and it's been a godsend. ACA is different > from AlAnon in that instead of focusing on your relationship to the > dysfunctional person, the focus is on overcoming the damage. For me it's > been good to get the focus off nada and on to me- check this list and see > if you relate: http://www.adultchildren.org/lit/Laundry_List.php. > > Elm, how did you get in touch with the ACA folks? I tried looking into meetings but there don't seem to be any in my area. Have you done any Internet/Phone meetings, and if so, were they useful? Al-Anon is helpful (I think that was me that mentioned it) but I often wish there were more people in it with problem parents. I am very much outnumbered by people with alcoholic/addicted children and spouses, and sometimes (rarely) you get someone who just " doesn't understand how you could feel that way about your mother " and has the bad grace to say it. There was someone two weeks ago (a rather nasty woman who actually reminds me of my nada a fair bit...) who took it upon herself to tell me that I should " cherish " my mother while she's still around (or some such junk) because she lost her mother when she was 24. You can probably guess my reaction -- which I kept to myself, of course, but it would be nice not to have to run into that. It's really odd to sit with parents at these meetings with addicted kids and hear them talk about the situation, and think to myself, " You know, what we should do is, my terrible mother can have YOUR terrible kid, and I'll come be YOUR daughter, how's that sound? That way both my mother and your kid might come to appreciate what they have a little more... " Best, Jen H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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