Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Hi , I relate to your feelings and I think your feelings are shared by nearly everyone who has been a victim of a BPD person's abusive behavior. You were, literally, raised and groomed from day one by your mother to feel responsible for her and made to feel guilty for doing something to protect yourself instead of giving into her selfish needs for attention. Her behavior taught you from childhood on, that you were less important, therefore you have to give your life, your time, your energy, your peace of mind, your everything to her. Your feelings are totally normal, because you are a good person, and even though your mother is a challenge to deal with, you do care about her and worry about her feelings. You know that because of this unfortunate situation, it would be best for you to distance yourself from her, but in the meantime you will have to encounter lots of guilt and you'll feel sorry for her, you'll worry about her, you'll question yourself sometimes, but it's all just part of the process. It's something that, as I'm sure you know in your heart and mind, you will be better and stronger for. Any degree of boundary setting that you can get better at will be a good thing in the long run, but it's totally normal to have a lot of tough feelings, and those feelings can last for a long time. You've been dealing with her for decades, so it's not like anyone can just turn the ship around in very short time frame. Be strong and do your best to take care of yourself and the people you trust in your life! And forgive yourself for any " mistakes " you feel you make along the way. Nobody is perfect. > > > > I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than her. > > > > Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to let her in. Wow, this is so hard! > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Yes, Debra....Enjoy your marriage and your time with your husband.  As I've posted earlier, in retrospect, what I regret most in life IS  the time I spent upset about nada, and having taken that mental time away from my marriage.  My life with DH was precious.  Now he's passed.  And nada is driving me nuts. -L ________________________________ To: " WTOAdultChildren1 " WTOAdultChildren1 laura.halloran@... " laura.halloran@...> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 9:28 PM Subject: Re: Confused about letting go  I only recently became a member of this group; and though I haven't posted often, I have been reading the posts from others detailing their personal " roller coaster ride " so many (if not all) of us have on a daily basis with our nadas. Though the intimate details vary, the common threads of hurt, loss, confusion, and longing for a peaceful existance bind us together. I am so thankful to have found this " safe place to fall " after so many years of feeling like no one would ever understand what my relationship with my mom was really like. I have gone from a child trying desperately to please to sn adult still struggling to make my mother happy. She is such a blend of the personalities, and can move so quickly from one to another that it makes my head spin. Just when I become so frustrated with the " witch " the " waif " appears. It's like a wrestling match where I am constantly weaving and bobbing to miss the punches...all the while clutching desperately to the ropes to keep from falling down for the count. That's why I felt like I had to respond on this particular thread. I have such a hard time setting boundaries with her because of her constant changes. Even though I am 55, since she lives beside me and I am an only child, I feel a tremendous sense of responsibility for her. She is constantly telling me how lonely she is, and even if I have spent all my free time with her, she will say I never have time for her. (don't leave me). Then of course there will be the reverse when she finds out my husband is home from a run (he is a truck driver) and she will say with such venom, " oh you go spend time with your husband. I know I have to be all alone because you have plans with him. " . (i hate you). She is so obviously jealous of any love that I get from him because she wants a man in her life. And the crazy thing is, I can't let myself be happy unless she is peaceful. That is another reason for this post...I suddenly saw myself without him and realized all the precious time I was wasting worrying about her. I now know I have got to make some boundries and start enjoying my marriage before it is too late. But with her failing health, it is really hard. D Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Jen, I'm sorry that AlAnon was like that, and that you didn't find an ACA meeting. I don't know about the phone or internet meetings but it looks like there are tons. ACA has strict etiquette about never commenting on what another person has said. We all have issues with shame, guilt, and judgment so they're really serious about that. The whole deal with ACA is that everyone is there to get over the shame, anger, and dysfunction that results from having had self-centered parents. Most of the sharing and discussion isn't about our parents (although it can be), it's about our current struggles to live normal lives in spite of the emotional damage. If you were open to trying AlAnon (and you're here), it sounds like you could really benefit from meeting other people working to recover. This board is great for reminding me that I'm not crazy and oversensitive, I just feel that way from the overdoses of gaslighting and histrionics. ACA really distills down the effects (i.e. people-pleasing, perfectionism, taking too much responsibility, being drawn to dysfunctional people, etc.) and has an organized recovery program. I've bought the book, and I'm beginning to go through the exercises, which is rough but cathartic. Just feel like adding to this ramble that I don't mean to evangelize about this particular program. It's just where I am on my journey. In January I had an epiphany- I was probably not a hateful selfish wretch of a child sent to torture my saintly parents. ACA is a good fit for me right now as I try to shake off the selfish wretch self-image and figure out how to function around " normal " people. A lot of the books out there on the consequences of alcoholic parents have been helpful too, and I wish more people were aware that the syndrome isn't restricted to children of alcoholics. Alcohol just happens to be a very effective way to turn yourself into a terrible parent (not to mention abusive crazy people tend to really like alcohol). > > > ** > > > > > > > > Someone mentioned AlAnon, which is a good idea. I've been going to Adult > > Children of Alcoholics meetings, and it's been a godsend. ACA is different > > from AlAnon in that instead of focusing on your relationship to the > > dysfunctional person, the focus is on overcoming the damage. For me it's > > been good to get the focus off nada and on to me- check this list and see > > if you relate: http://www.adultchildren.org/lit/Laundry_List.php. > > > > > Elm, how did you get in touch with the ACA folks? I tried looking into > meetings but there don't seem to be any in my area. Have you done any > Internet/Phone meetings, and if so, were they useful? > > Al-Anon is helpful (I think that was me that mentioned it) but I often wish > there were more people in it with problem parents. I am very much > outnumbered by people with alcoholic/addicted children and spouses, and > sometimes (rarely) you get someone who just " doesn't understand how you > could feel that way about your mother " and has the bad grace to say it. > There was someone two weeks ago (a rather nasty woman who actually reminds > me of my nada a fair bit...) who took it upon herself to tell me that I > should " cherish " my mother while she's still around (or some such junk) > because she lost her mother when she was 24. You can probably guess my > reaction -- which I kept to myself, of course, but it would be nice not to > have to run into that. It's really odd to sit with parents at these > meetings with addicted kids and hear them talk about the situation, and > think to myself, " You know, what we should do is, my terrible mother can > have YOUR terrible kid, and I'll come be YOUR daughter, how's that sound? > That way both my mother and your kid might come to appreciate what they > have a little more... " > > Best, > Jen H. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 What is ACA ? Sent from my ASUS Eee Pad elmtree_speaks elmtree_speaks@...> wrote: >Jen, I'm sorry that AlAnon was like that, and that you didn't find an ACA meeting. I don't know about the phone or internet meetings but it looks like there are tons. ACA has strict etiquette about never commenting on what another person has said. We all have issues with shame, guilt, and judgment so they're really serious about that. The whole deal with ACA is that everyone is there to get over the shame, anger, and dysfunction that results from having had self-centered parents. Most of the sharing and discussion isn't about our parents (although it can be), it's about our current struggles to live normal lives in spite of the emotional damage. > > >If you were open to trying AlAnon (and you're here), it sounds like you could really benefit from meeting other people working to recover. This board is great for reminding me that I'm not crazy and oversensitive, I just feel that way from the overdoses of gaslighting and histrionics. ACA really distills down the effects (i.e. people-pleasing, perfectionism, taking too much responsibility, being drawn to dysfunctional people, etc.) and has an organized recovery program. I've bought the book, and I'm beginning to go through the exercises, which is rough but cathartic. > >Just feel like adding to this ramble that I don't mean to evangelize about this particular program. It's just where I am on my journey. In January I had an epiphany- I was probably not a hateful selfish wretch of a child sent to torture my saintly parents. ACA is a good fit for me right now as I try to shake off the selfish wretch self-image and figure out how to function around " normal " people. A lot of the books out there on the consequences of alcoholic parents have been helpful too, and I wish more people were aware that the syndrome isn't restricted to children of alcoholics. Alcohol just happens to be a very effective way to turn yourself into a terrible parent (not to mention abusive crazy people tend to really like alcohol). > > > > >> >> > ** >> > >> > >> > >> > Someone mentioned AlAnon, which is a good idea. I've been going to Adult >> > Children of Alcoholics meetings, and it's been a godsend. ACA is different >> > from AlAnon in that instead of focusing on your relationship to the >> > dysfunctional person, the focus is on overcoming the damage. For me it's >> > been good to get the focus off nada and on to me- check this list and see >> > if you relate: http://www.adultchildren.org/lit/Laundry_List.php. >> > >> > >> Elm, how did you get in touch with the ACA folks? I tried looking into >> meetings but there don't seem to be any in my area. Have you done any >> Internet/Phone meetings, and if so, were they useful? >> >> Al-Anon is helpful (I think that was me that mentioned it) but I often wish >> there were more people in it with problem parents. I am very much >> outnumbered by people with alcoholic/addicted children and spouses, and >> sometimes (rarely) you get someone who just " doesn't understand how you >> could feel that way about your mother " and has the bad grace to say it. >> There was someone two weeks ago (a rather nasty woman who actually reminds >> me of my nada a fair bit...) who took it upon herself to tell me that I >> should " cherish " my mother while she's still around (or some such junk) >> because she lost her mother when she was 24. You can probably guess my >> reaction -- which I kept to myself, of course, but it would be nice not to >> have to run into that. It's really odd to sit with parents at these >> meetings with addicted kids and hear them talk about the situation, and >> think to myself, " You know, what we should do is, my terrible mother can >> have YOUR terrible kid, and I'll come be YOUR daughter, how's that sound? >> That way both my mother and your kid might come to appreciate what they >> have a little more... " >> >> Best, >> Jen H. >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 . Just an odd thought that floated through my brain as I read your post. Re: Why it's hard to let NADA go. Maybe. It's because, in training dogs anyway, and I don't know how many other species..... intermittent rewards are more effective than constant rewards. Maybe we are like that. We keep up a behavior in the hopes of occasionally getting a reward....an almost normal NADA. > ** > > > I'm wondering if anyone else has ever been through what I'm experiencing > right now and trying to understand. I've been working in my own therapy on > setting boundaries, understanding my nada for what feels like forever but I > think I'm at a crossroads. So-my nada can be crazy, hostile and jealous one > minute, pleading and needy the next, then be totally normal and friendly > even act like an appropriate mother for a while. Where I get stuck is I get > roped in every time she's nice and 'normal' and I think, yay, I have a > normal mom. But what tends to happen is a certain amount of keeping the > peace and walking on eggshells to not upset her and bring back the crazy > lady. I think I've done this for years, I used to fight with her when I was > a teen but just ended up believing her crap that I was the bad one for > 'starting a fight', so I stopped fighting. I met a man and fell in love a > few years ago and she did not like that at all: she continues to push our > boundaries and pleads with me at times to 'not leave her'. What has been > happening lately though is that the more my therapist pushes me to think > about limiting my contact with her and closing the emotional door with her, > I feel so much guilt and anxiety, even sadness that I'll never get to see > the 'nice' mother again, that I've been really resistant and anxious, > picking fights with my spouse and projecting my anger onto him rather than > her. > > Has anyone else struggled with this? My therapist challenged me and said > what if you can't let go of her? What if you choose to let her in > emotionally? That scared the heck out of me! Has anyone else struggled to > let go? What am I so afraid of? Why do I continue to sacrifice my own > happiness for her? These are my worries lately and I sometimes feel I have > nowhere to turn with these questions, certainly some people in my life are > impatient with me because they see how she treats me and how I continue to > let her in. Wow, this is so hard! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Hi Elm -- I wasn't trying to run down Al-Anon in general -- mostly I really like the people I meet there and I *do* find it interesting to compare how people from different angles of a relationship try to cope with having someone disordered in the middle of it. And I should also add that it was another Al-Anon'er who first told me about ACA, which is why I went looking for a meeting once before and why my ears perked up when I saw you mention it, so there's real value in networking (just as there is here.) It's just that there are a few -- very much the minority! -- of people in Al-Anon who have a mindset toward " *I* haven't done anything wrong, and my kid seems to hate me, so the fact that this woman seems to hate her mother is probably unfair to her mother! I bet HER mother hasn't done anything wrong either! " That is, they see the situation from their own " dirty lens " and believe they have some kind of insight into my situation -- which they don't. That's NOT the majority of Al-Anon'ers I've met though. Most of them are quite able to go " Oh yeah, your Mom is winding you up in just the way my alcoholic husband used to wind me up, I recognize that completely. It's really crazy-making. " The person who made the invalidating remark at this one meeting was also someone pretty new to Al-Anon and with fairly obvious hostility/control freakishness problems of her own (she comments a lot about how mean she is to store clerks who make mistakes and how she always blares her horn at people who drive in ways she doesn't approve of), although unlike our nadas, I should give this woman props for recognizing that this behavior is really bad and for trying to do something about it. She did in fact break the Al-Anon rules of conduct pretty severely with that remark of hers, due probably to her being new (and likely due to her own defensiveness over her own interpersonal style.) That having been said, I think I'll definitely see about getting involved with ACA. They sound really useful! Best, Jen H. On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 1:16 AM, elmtree_speaks elmtree_speaks@...>wrote: > ** > > > Jen, I'm sorry that AlAnon was like that, and that you didn't find an ACA > meeting. I don't know about the phone or internet meetings but it looks > like there are tons. ACA has strict etiquette about never commenting on > what another person has said. We all have issues with shame, guilt, and > judgment so they're really serious about that. The whole deal with ACA is > that everyone is there to get over the shame, anger, and dysfunction that > results from having had self-centered parents. Most of the sharing and > discussion isn't about our parents (although it can be), it's about our > current struggles to live normal lives in spite of the emotional damage. > > If you were open to trying AlAnon (and you're here), it sounds like you > could really benefit from meeting other people working to recover. This > board is great for reminding me that I'm not crazy and oversensitive, I > just feel that way from the overdoses of gaslighting and histrionics. ACA > really distills down the effects (i.e. people-pleasing, perfectionism, > taking too much responsibility, being drawn to dysfunctional people, etc.) > and has an organized recovery program. I've bought the book, and I'm > beginning to go through the exercises, which is rough but cathartic. > > Just feel like adding to this ramble that I don't mean to evangelize about > this particular program. It's just where I am on my journey. In January I > had an epiphany- I was probably not a hateful selfish wretch of a child > sent to torture my saintly parents. ACA is a good fit for me right now as I > try to shake off the selfish wretch self-image and figure out how to > function around " normal " people. A lot of the books out there on the > consequences of alcoholic parents have been helpful too, and I wish more > people were aware that the syndrome isn't restricted to children of > alcoholics. Alcohol just happens to be a very effective way to turn > yourself into a terrible parent (not to mention abusive crazy people tend > to really like alcohol). > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone mentioned AlAnon, which is a good idea. I've been going to > Adult > > > Children of Alcoholics meetings, and it's been a godsend. ACA is > different > > > from AlAnon in that instead of focusing on your relationship to the > > > dysfunctional person, the focus is on overcoming the damage. For me > it's > > > been good to get the focus off nada and on to me- check this list and > see > > > if you relate: http://www.adultchildren.org/lit/Laundry_List.php. > > > > > > > > Elm, how did you get in touch with the ACA folks? I tried looking into > > meetings but there don't seem to be any in my area. Have you done any > > Internet/Phone meetings, and if so, were they useful? > > > > Al-Anon is helpful (I think that was me that mentioned it) but I often > wish > > there were more people in it with problem parents. I am very much > > outnumbered by people with alcoholic/addicted children and spouses, and > > sometimes (rarely) you get someone who just " doesn't understand how you > > could feel that way about your mother " and has the bad grace to say it. > > There was someone two weeks ago (a rather nasty woman who actually > reminds > > me of my nada a fair bit...) who took it upon herself to tell me that I > > should " cherish " my mother while she's still around (or some such junk) > > because she lost her mother when she was 24. You can probably guess my > > reaction -- which I kept to myself, of course, but it would be nice not > to > > have to run into that. It's really odd to sit with parents at these > > meetings with addicted kids and hear them talk about the situation, and > > think to myself, " You know, what we should do is, my terrible mother can > > have YOUR terrible kid, and I'll come be YOUR daughter, how's that sound? > > That way both my mother and your kid might come to appreciate what they > > have a little more... " > > > > Best, > > Jen H. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Hi Jen, Sorry, didn't mean to disparage AlAnon, especially since I've never been to one of their meetings. I reacted strongly to your story of being criticized for your attitude towards your mother. Feeling guilt and shame about feeling angry at nada is a huge part of the legacy, and the idea that you would go somewhere for support and have someone say that kills me. What a betrayal. You have to say the same thing about her as you have to say about your nada: she's sick and has her own problems, that's why she hurt me. We didn't get validation and support from our nadas, which is why we need support and validation from a peer group in the first place, so that kind of thing sets me off I guess. Sorry about the long rant I really hope you find your way to an ACA group. If the phone/internet meetings aren't quite enough, maybe start your own? Their website has information on how to do that and if you register it on their site people should start to show up. I imagine it's perfectly kosher to contact your local AA/NA/Al-Anon meetings and let them know you're there. The ones near me are held at churches and community centers that list them on their calendars (there's usually AA in the same venues too), so I bet you wouldn't have trouble attracting a group. Also, I've been to meetings where only 2-3 people show up on a given day, and those can be the best meetings of all. Email me if you want to talk about it off the board (although this might be good for other folks too). > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone mentioned AlAnon, which is a good idea. I've been going to > > Adult > > > > Children of Alcoholics meetings, and it's been a godsend. ACA is > > different > > > > from AlAnon in that instead of focusing on your relationship to the > > > > dysfunctional person, the focus is on overcoming the damage. For me > > it's > > > > been good to get the focus off nada and on to me- check this list and > > see > > > > if you relate: http://www.adultchildren.org/lit/Laundry_List.php. > > > > > > > > > > > Elm, how did you get in touch with the ACA folks? I tried looking into > > > meetings but there don't seem to be any in my area. Have you done any > > > Internet/Phone meetings, and if so, were they useful? > > > > > > Al-Anon is helpful (I think that was me that mentioned it) but I often > > wish > > > there were more people in it with problem parents. I am very much > > > outnumbered by people with alcoholic/addicted children and spouses, and > > > sometimes (rarely) you get someone who just " doesn't understand how you > > > could feel that way about your mother " and has the bad grace to say it. > > > There was someone two weeks ago (a rather nasty woman who actually > > reminds > > > me of my nada a fair bit...) who took it upon herself to tell me that I > > > should " cherish " my mother while she's still around (or some such junk) > > > because she lost her mother when she was 24. You can probably guess my > > > reaction -- which I kept to myself, of course, but it would be nice not > > to > > > have to run into that. It's really odd to sit with parents at these > > > meetings with addicted kids and hear them talk about the situation, and > > > think to myself, " You know, what we should do is, my terrible mother can > > > have YOUR terrible kid, and I'll come be YOUR daughter, how's that sound? > > > That way both my mother and your kid might come to appreciate what they > > > have a little more... " > > > > > > Best, > > > Jen H. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Hi Elm -- I didn't think you were disparaging Al-Anon - I just wanted to be clear that my complaint about this one woman there wasn't typical of the style of Al-Anon'ers in general (though you are right, it was a very bad comment to receive.) Al-Anon is more widespread than ACA, so I don't want anyone on this list avoiding Al-Anon if it's their only source of support just because a tiny percentage of the folks there are wrapped up in their own " But *I'M not a bad parent!!! " dramas. Overall though I suspect ACA is a better place for us if it's available since it speaks more directly to our issues, based on the Web reading I've been doing. Still, Al-Anon is much better than nothing if someone is struggling with a nada/fada and needs peer support. You know, if I were planning to be in this area longer, setting up a local ACA meeting would actually be something I could really get into, I think. For better or worse, though, I'm planning to move to another state soon (hopefully by the New Year, possible even sooner if all the cards fall exactly right) and I ran a check in my new area and there are several ACA meetings, which I will MOST DEFINITELY check out when I get there. In the meantime I think I'll poke at the Internet phone meetings and see what comes of it, so thanks much for the info! --Jen H. On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:25 AM, elmtree_speaks elmtree_speaks@...>wrote: > ** > > > Hi Jen, > > Sorry, didn't mean to disparage AlAnon, especially since I've never been > to one of their meetings. I reacted strongly to your story of being > criticized for your attitude towards your mother. Feeling guilt and shame > about feeling angry at nada is a huge part of the legacy, and the idea that > you would go somewhere for support and have someone say that kills me. What > a betrayal. You have to say the same thing about her as you have to say > about your nada: she's sick and has her own problems, that's why she hurt > me. We didn't get validation and support from our nadas, which is why we > need support and validation from a peer group in the first place, so that > kind of thing sets me off I guess. Sorry about the long rant > > I really hope you find your way to an ACA group. If the phone/internet > meetings aren't quite enough, maybe start your own? Their website has > information on how to do that and if you register it on their site people > should start to show up. I imagine it's perfectly kosher to contact your > local AA/NA/Al-Anon meetings and let them know you're there. The ones near > me are held at churches and community centers that list them on their > calendars (there's usually AA in the same venues too), so I bet you > wouldn't have trouble attracting a group. Also, I've been to meetings where > only 2-3 people show up on a given day, and those can be the best meetings > of all. Email me if you want to talk about it off the board (although this > might be good for other folks too). > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone mentioned AlAnon, which is a good idea. I've been going to > > > Adult > > > > > Children of Alcoholics meetings, and it's been a godsend. ACA is > > > different > > > > > from AlAnon in that instead of focusing on your relationship to the > > > > > dysfunctional person, the focus is on overcoming the damage. For me > > > it's > > > > > been good to get the focus off nada and on to me- check this list > and > > > see > > > > > if you relate: http://www.adultchildren.org/lit/Laundry_List.php. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elm, how did you get in touch with the ACA folks? I tried looking > into > > > > meetings but there don't seem to be any in my area. Have you done any > > > > Internet/Phone meetings, and if so, were they useful? > > > > > > > > Al-Anon is helpful (I think that was me that mentioned it) but I > often > > > wish > > > > there were more people in it with problem parents. I am very much > > > > outnumbered by people with alcoholic/addicted children and spouses, > and > > > > sometimes (rarely) you get someone who just " doesn't understand how > you > > > > could feel that way about your mother " and has the bad grace to say > it. > > > > There was someone two weeks ago (a rather nasty woman who actually > > > reminds > > > > me of my nada a fair bit...) who took it upon herself to tell me > that I > > > > should " cherish " my mother while she's still around (or some such > junk) > > > > because she lost her mother when she was 24. You can probably guess > my > > > > reaction -- which I kept to myself, of course, but it would be nice > not > > > to > > > > have to run into that. It's really odd to sit with parents at these > > > > meetings with addicted kids and hear them talk about the situation, > and > > > > think to myself, " You know, what we should do is, my terrible mother > can > > > > have YOUR terrible kid, and I'll come be YOUR daughter, how's that > sound? > > > > That way both my mother and your kid might come to appreciate what > they > > > > have a little more... " > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Jen H. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Good points Jen. I hope you find some combination of support systems that work and make it to ACA soon. > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone mentioned AlAnon, which is a good idea. I've been going to > > > > Adult > > > > > > Children of Alcoholics meetings, and it's been a godsend. ACA is > > > > different > > > > > > from AlAnon in that instead of focusing on your relationship to the > > > > > > dysfunctional person, the focus is on overcoming the damage. For me > > > > it's > > > > > > been good to get the focus off nada and on to me- check this list > > and > > > > see > > > > > > if you relate: http://www.adultchildren.org/lit/Laundry_List.php. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elm, how did you get in touch with the ACA folks? I tried looking > > into > > > > > meetings but there don't seem to be any in my area. Have you done any > > > > > Internet/Phone meetings, and if so, were they useful? > > > > > > > > > > Al-Anon is helpful (I think that was me that mentioned it) but I > > often > > > > wish > > > > > there were more people in it with problem parents. I am very much > > > > > outnumbered by people with alcoholic/addicted children and spouses, > > and > > > > > sometimes (rarely) you get someone who just " doesn't understand how > > you > > > > > could feel that way about your mother " and has the bad grace to say > > it. > > > > > There was someone two weeks ago (a rather nasty woman who actually > > > > reminds > > > > > me of my nada a fair bit...) who took it upon herself to tell me > > that I > > > > > should " cherish " my mother while she's still around (or some such > > junk) > > > > > because she lost her mother when she was 24. You can probably guess > > my > > > > > reaction -- which I kept to myself, of course, but it would be nice > > not > > > > to > > > > > have to run into that. It's really odd to sit with parents at these > > > > > meetings with addicted kids and hear them talk about the situation, > > and > > > > > think to myself, " You know, what we should do is, my terrible mother > > can > > > > > have YOUR terrible kid, and I'll come be YOUR daughter, how's that > > sound? > > > > > That way both my mother and your kid might come to appreciate what > > they > > > > > have a little more... " > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > Jen H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 , I don't think the reasons you feel guilt and anxiety for setting boundaries with your mother are probably that complicated. I would imagine you were punished for setting boundaries with her when you were quite a lot younger--telling her you didn't like something she liked, having a different opinion, wanting to do something she didn't want you to do at that moment. It's not uncommon. Many npd/bpd parents also give their children the silent treatment, or express ongoing, quiet disapproval of them for days and weeks whenever the child displeases them in any way. There may be a very long-standing fear of abandonment left from being neglected and emotionally abused for not catering to her every whim and desire. You were probably also punished for seeking your own happiness instead of hers. Most npd/bpd parents don't tolerate their children not putting them absolutely first in their lives, from toddlerhood onwards. If you don't, you are usually told you are selfish or cruel. The things they say this over are often petty and small-- " How could you choose to color with blue when I hate blue? " kind of thing... I think the main thing is to gain skills and tools in coping with anxiety and other kinds of uncomfortable emotions. You can feel guilty about something and yet do it anyway if you know it is right. It's just a matter of being able to soothe yourself so that the guilt is not overwhelming. You don't have to pick fights with your spouse or otherwise act out. It's possible to just be uncomfortable. And then the discomfort will eventually pass. When we are small, and we lack the skills to regulate our own emotions, being distressed is overwhelming. It is like a storm in the brain. That is why our parents need to help us with that. Most npd/bpd parents are unable to do this for their children, so we can also grow up being fearful of our emotions, because we associate it with the experience of being utterly overwhelmed. But you are grown, and your feelings are just feelings. They don't hurt you. Just some thoughts. Take care, Ashana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Adult Children of Alcoholics > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Thank you. When I googledACA I got ma manyanswers, but not that Sent from my ASUS Eee Pad Doug doug883@...> wrote: > >Adult Children of Alcoholics > > > >> >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 I'm still overwhelmed with grief at the realization that my nada did not love me and never will, and that it is way too late for me to receive the love I needed in childhood. Even if my nada got intensive treatment and started to treat me with love and respect, it's 30 years too late and the damage is already done. Understanding this has helped me to stop trying to have a relationship with her. So well put. I started allowing myself to feel that grief when I left for college and, while experiencing it helped me grow tremendously and let go of a lot of anger, I still feel that sorrow and yearning for " The mom I should have had " . > > > > > > It's really hard to let go when your BPD nada has her good days -- I think > > > it's the old behaviorism " inconsistent reinforcement " at work. Basically, > > > if your nada were vicious all the time, you'd find it relatively easy to > > > get away (if you survived to be old enough.) And if she were nice all the > > > time, of course, you wouldn't be afraid of what would happen if you needed > > > to get some distance, so you would be able to get as much distance as you > > > felt you needed to reach adult separation. But combine sometimes-nice, > > > sometimes-vicious, and you get this setup where you keep going back, hoping > > > for the " nice " but never being sure when or if she's going to show -- and > > > being afraid of what the " vicious " will do if you actually break away > > > completely. I think it's a really, really hard bond to break -- I have a > > > lot of trouble with the same thing myself. I've been attending Al-Anon to > > > work on " letting go " of my desire to " fix " my nada, and to try to > > > de-condition myself from believing that there is ANYTHING I can do to make > > > her stay " nice " all the time. There isn't, she won't, and although it's > > > hard to give up that hope, it's the only real way to grow and separate > > > properly, in my opinion. Not everyone benefits from Al-Anon (the groups > > > vary a lot and you might not be able to find one that fits) but there's a > > > heavy focus there on learning to give up the hope of control and " fixing " > > > the messed-up person. > > > > > > You could also try reading " Codependent No More " by Melody Beattie -- I've > > > known several people who found it helpful in breaking away from > > > codependency. Codependency has various definitions in various places, but > > > the one used in this book applies to us -- it's when it seems like the > > > whole of your emotional existence is bound up in trying to control or fix > > > someone in your life who you love but who is behaving in unacceptable ways > > > that are driving you literally crazy. In Beattie's definition, you are > > > codependent if you have come to believe that you can't be happy or live a > > > good life unless someone else changes, and you get fixated on trying to > > > force changes on someone else that can't be forced. > > > > > > Anyway, the spirit you are trying to cultivate is known as " detachment " in > > > some circles, so you can try Googling that and seeing if any useful advice > > > pops up too. > > > > > > Good luck with it. At least your therapist is trying to nudge you to detach > > > -- the one I had before (that I dumped!) kept trying to insinuate that I > > > should NOT detach from nada. So now I have a new therapist, thank God. > > > > > > -- Jen H. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 I don't really have much to say about this at this particular moment, except thank you for sharing. Thanks for this new, at least for me, insight. It's great to come on here and learn new perspectives of what we're all going through. Thank you! > > > > > > > > It's really hard to let go when your BPD nada has her good days -- I think > > > > it's the old behaviorism " inconsistent reinforcement " at work. Basically, > > > > if your nada were vicious all the time, you'd find it relatively easy to > > > > get away (if you survived to be old enough.) And if she were nice all the > > > > time, of course, you wouldn't be afraid of what would happen if you needed > > > > to get some distance, so you would be able to get as much distance as you > > > > felt you needed to reach adult separation. But combine sometimes-nice, > > > > sometimes-vicious, and you get this setup where you keep going back, hoping > > > > for the " nice " but never being sure when or if she's going to show -- and > > > > being afraid of what the " vicious " will do if you actually break away > > > > completely. I think it's a really, really hard bond to break -- I have a > > > > lot of trouble with the same thing myself. I've been attending Al-Anon to > > > > work on " letting go " of my desire to " fix " my nada, and to try to > > > > de-condition myself from believing that there is ANYTHING I can do to make > > > > her stay " nice " all the time. There isn't, she won't, and although it's > > > > hard to give up that hope, it's the only real way to grow and separate > > > > properly, in my opinion. Not everyone benefits from Al-Anon (the groups > > > > vary a lot and you might not be able to find one that fits) but there's a > > > > heavy focus there on learning to give up the hope of control and " fixing " > > > > the messed-up person. > > > > > > > > You could also try reading " Codependent No More " by Melody Beattie -- I've > > > > known several people who found it helpful in breaking away from > > > > codependency. Codependency has various definitions in various places, but > > > > the one used in this book applies to us -- it's when it seems like the > > > > whole of your emotional existence is bound up in trying to control or fix > > > > someone in your life who you love but who is behaving in unacceptable ways > > > > that are driving you literally crazy. In Beattie's definition, you are > > > > codependent if you have come to believe that you can't be happy or live a > > > > good life unless someone else changes, and you get fixated on trying to > > > > force changes on someone else that can't be forced. > > > > > > > > Anyway, the spirit you are trying to cultivate is known as " detachment " in > > > > some circles, so you can try Googling that and seeing if any useful advice > > > > pops up too. > > > > > > > > Good luck with it. At least your therapist is trying to nudge you to detach > > > > -- the one I had before (that I dumped!) kept trying to insinuate that I > > > > should NOT detach from nada. So now I have a new therapist, thank God. > > > > > > > > -- Jen H. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2012 Report Share Posted October 6, 2012 I'm glad this helped you. Lately I've been feeling much better about the world, and doing better with relating to other people and not feeling so frightened and confused. The other day I decided that it's mostly due to this particular realization. As long as I couldn't separate my own self from the nada in my head, any connection to any other person went through her. It was always a threesome- little me, judgmental nada, and an intruder. I've always felt like life was moving too fast and leaving me behind- I never felt ready to move on to the next stage. It turns out that people with healthy parents go through an individuation process in early childhood where they learn to experience themselves as separate people. I never did that, and so I never felt " real. " My whole life I carried a sense of self merged with my parents, a downward pull towards infancy and away from my peers. I have been waiting forever for my nada, both the real one and the one in my head, to mirror my thoughts and feelings and indicate that I was ok. Then I could venture out into the world. What I know now that I didn't know then is that she'll never do that. Somehow, just knowing that is helping me move on. > > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to let go when your BPD nada has her good days -- I think > > > > > it's the old behaviorism " inconsistent reinforcement " at work. Basically, > > > > > if your nada were vicious all the time, you'd find it relatively easy to > > > > > get away (if you survived to be old enough.) And if she were nice all the > > > > > time, of course, you wouldn't be afraid of what would happen if you needed > > > > > to get some distance, so you would be able to get as much distance as you > > > > > felt you needed to reach adult separation. But combine sometimes-nice, > > > > > sometimes-vicious, and you get this setup where you keep going back, hoping > > > > > for the " nice " but never being sure when or if she's going to show -- and > > > > > being afraid of what the " vicious " will do if you actually break away > > > > > completely. I think it's a really, really hard bond to break -- I have a > > > > > lot of trouble with the same thing myself. I've been attending Al-Anon to > > > > > work on " letting go " of my desire to " fix " my nada, and to try to > > > > > de-condition myself from believing that there is ANYTHING I can do to make > > > > > her stay " nice " all the time. There isn't, she won't, and although it's > > > > > hard to give up that hope, it's the only real way to grow and separate > > > > > properly, in my opinion. Not everyone benefits from Al-Anon (the groups > > > > > vary a lot and you might not be able to find one that fits) but there's a > > > > > heavy focus there on learning to give up the hope of control and " fixing " > > > > > the messed-up person. > > > > > > > > > > You could also try reading " Codependent No More " by Melody Beattie -- I've > > > > > known several people who found it helpful in breaking away from > > > > > codependency. Codependency has various definitions in various places, but > > > > > the one used in this book applies to us -- it's when it seems like the > > > > > whole of your emotional existence is bound up in trying to control or fix > > > > > someone in your life who you love but who is behaving in unacceptable ways > > > > > that are driving you literally crazy. In Beattie's definition, you are > > > > > codependent if you have come to believe that you can't be happy or live a > > > > > good life unless someone else changes, and you get fixated on trying to > > > > > force changes on someone else that can't be forced. > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, the spirit you are trying to cultivate is known as " detachment " in > > > > > some circles, so you can try Googling that and seeing if any useful advice > > > > > pops up too. > > > > > > > > > > Good luck with it. At least your therapist is trying to nudge you to detach > > > > > -- the one I had before (that I dumped!) kept trying to insinuate that I > > > > > should NOT detach from nada. So now I have a new therapist, thank God. > > > > > > > > > > -- Jen H. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2012 Report Share Posted October 6, 2012 I think you've made a really profound observation about the nature of the damage that is done to the children of the mentally ill, and you did it so succinctly! And I agree with your observation. Mentally disordered parents have a poor chance of providing their child the healthy, positive traits that the parents themselves lack; such things as healthy self-esteem and self-confidence, a sense of individuality, resilience, altruism, a sense of joy and that life is an adventure, etc, which are gained from receiving acceptance, approval, validation, emotional support and wise guidance from our parents during our formative years. From my point of view, a parent's main task is to help their child/children discover who they are in this world, by providing the child with healthy, structured opportunities to make decisions, make mistakes, learn, and grow. As you point out, having this support and approval and sense of safety (we are safe in our parent's love and approval of us) as children allows the child to individuate and mature into a healthy adult. Realizing that one's personality disordered parent/s are never going to give us what they don't have to give, and going forward from there, is a significant turning point in the growth and healing for us KOs. Thanks for sharing your observation, its a keeper. -Annie > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to let go when your BPD nada has her good days -- I think > > > > > > it's the old behaviorism " inconsistent reinforcement " at work. Basically, > > > > > > if your nada were vicious all the time, you'd find it relatively easy to > > > > > > get away (if you survived to be old enough.) And if she were nice all the > > > > > > time, of course, you wouldn't be afraid of what would happen if you needed > > > > > > to get some distance, so you would be able to get as much distance as you > > > > > > felt you needed to reach adult separation. But combine sometimes-nice, > > > > > > sometimes-vicious, and you get this setup where you keep going back, hoping > > > > > > for the " nice " but never being sure when or if she's going to show -- and > > > > > > being afraid of what the " vicious " will do if you actually break away > > > > > > completely. I think it's a really, really hard bond to break -- I have a > > > > > > lot of trouble with the same thing myself. I've been attending Al-Anon to > > > > > > work on " letting go " of my desire to " fix " my nada, and to try to > > > > > > de-condition myself from believing that there is ANYTHING I can do to make > > > > > > her stay " nice " all the time. There isn't, she won't, and although it's > > > > > > hard to give up that hope, it's the only real way to grow and separate > > > > > > properly, in my opinion. Not everyone benefits from Al-Anon (the groups > > > > > > vary a lot and you might not be able to find one that fits) but there's a > > > > > > heavy focus there on learning to give up the hope of control and " fixing " > > > > > > the messed-up person. > > > > > > > > > > > > You could also try reading " Codependent No More " by Melody Beattie -- I've > > > > > > known several people who found it helpful in breaking away from > > > > > > codependency. Codependency has various definitions in various places, but > > > > > > the one used in this book applies to us -- it's when it seems like the > > > > > > whole of your emotional existence is bound up in trying to control or fix > > > > > > someone in your life who you love but who is behaving in unacceptable ways > > > > > > that are driving you literally crazy. In Beattie's definition, you are > > > > > > codependent if you have come to believe that you can't be happy or live a > > > > > > good life unless someone else changes, and you get fixated on trying to > > > > > > force changes on someone else that can't be forced. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, the spirit you are trying to cultivate is known as " detachment " in > > > > > > some circles, so you can try Googling that and seeing if any useful advice > > > > > > pops up too. > > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck with it. At least your therapist is trying to nudge you to detach > > > > > > -- the one I had before (that I dumped!) kept trying to insinuate that I > > > > > > should NOT detach from nada. So now I have a new therapist, thank God. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Jen H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2012 Report Share Posted October 6, 2012 WOW! Your words ring so true with what I am experiencing right now, or what I am realizing I've always experienced. Especially the part about every other connection going through the nada in my head. My " thinking " self is now becoming aware of the truth, but I just can't shake the " emotional " self, the aching in my heart and the level of anxiety I feel still wanting to somehow seek their approval, even though that's not possible anyways. My T says I need to let myself grieve, but I feel something holding me back. Both my brothers are drug addicts, I now know because they needed a numbing escape. My escape was to be the pleaser, the family fixer. I think I soothed myself with those behaviours, like an addict I made myself feel safe if I could calm her down. Now that I'm not using that tool anymore, I feel lost, like I don't know what to do with myself and these emotions. She's not talking to me right now, her attempt to punish me and get me to comply as has always worked for her in the past. But this time I'm not crawling back. I feel positive in my decision to stay NC, but that part of me that was addicted to crawling back to her is the hard part. Any suggestions on what has helped anyone with working through this stage of healing? Thanks, _____ From: WTOAdultChildren1 [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of elmtree_speaks Sent: October-06-12 11:26 AM To: WTOAdultChildren1 Subject: Re: Confused about letting go I'm glad this helped you. Lately I've been feeling much better about the world, and doing better with relating to other people and not feeling so frightened and confused. The other day I decided that it's mostly due to this particular realization. As long as I couldn't separate my own self from the nada in my head, any connection to any other person went through her. It was always a threesome- little me, judgmental nada, and an intruder. I've always felt like life was moving too fast and leaving me behind- I never felt ready to move on to the next stage. It turns out that people with healthy parents go through an individuation process in early childhood where they learn to experience themselves as separate people. I never did that, and so I never felt " real. " My whole life I carried a sense of self merged with my parents, a downward pull towards infancy and away from my peers. I have been waiting forever for my nada, both the real one and the one in my head, to mirror my thoughts and feelings and indicate that I was ok. Then I could venture out into the world. What I know now that I didn't know then is that she'll never do that. Somehow, just knowing that is helping me move on. > > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to let go when your BPD nada has her good days -- I think > > > > > it's the old behaviorism " inconsistent reinforcement " at work. Basically, > > > > > if your nada were vicious all the time, you'd find it relatively easy to > > > > > get away (if you survived to be old enough.) And if she were nice all the > > > > > time, of course, you wouldn't be afraid of what would happen if you needed > > > > > to get some distance, so you would be able to get as much distance as you > > > > > felt you needed to reach adult separation. But combine sometimes-nice, > > > > > sometimes-vicious, and you get this setup where you keep going back, hoping > > > > > for the " nice " but never being sure when or if she's going to show -- and > > > > > being afraid of what the " vicious " will do if you actually break away > > > > > completely. I think it's a really, really hard bond to break -- I have a > > > > > lot of trouble with the same thing myself. I've been attending Al-Anon to > > > > > work on " letting go " of my desire to " fix " my nada, and to try to > > > > > de-condition myself from believing that there is ANYTHING I can do to make > > > > > her stay " nice " all the time. There isn't, she won't, and although it's > > > > > hard to give up that hope, it's the only real way to grow and separate > > > > > properly, in my opinion. Not everyone benefits from Al-Anon (the groups > > > > > vary a lot and you might not be able to find one that fits) but there's a > > > > > heavy focus there on learning to give up the hope of control and " fixing " > > > > > the messed-up person. > > > > > > > > > > You could also try reading " Codependent No More " by Melody Beattie -- I've > > > > > known several people who found it helpful in breaking away from > > > > > codependency. Codependency has various definitions in various places, but > > > > > the one used in this book applies to us -- it's when it seems like the > > > > > whole of your emotional existence is bound up in trying to control or fix > > > > > someone in your life who you love but who is behaving in unacceptable ways > > > > > that are driving you literally crazy. In Beattie's definition, you are > > > > > codependent if you have come to believe that you can't be happy or live a > > > > > good life unless someone else changes, and you get fixated on trying to > > > > > force changes on someone else that can't be forced. > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, the spirit you are trying to cultivate is known as " detachment " in > > > > > some circles, so you can try Googling that and seeing if any useful advice > > > > > pops up too. > > > > > > > > > > Good luck with it. At least your therapist is trying to nudge you to detach > > > > > -- the one I had before (that I dumped!) kept trying to insinuate that I > > > > > should NOT detach from nada. So now I have a new therapist, thank God. > > > > > > > > > > -- Jen H. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2012 Report Share Posted October 7, 2012 Hi , First, good for you for being here and for sticking to NC instead of getting " hoovered. " I think everyone here understands how strong that pull can be. All I can offer you is my own experience, and since it sounds like you're half a step behind me maybe it'll help. This recovery process is strange. My therapist also told me that I needed to grieve. Grieving is another one of those abstract concepts like forgiving and letting go and loving yourself that I find really annoying to be told to do. What do I do- spend an hour crying every day between going to the gym and packing tomorrow's lunch? Really? For me, it's turning out that grieving and recovering are not like going to the gym. They're not things I do, they're things that started to happen when I started to understand that they needed to happen. About two years ago I decided that I either had to do something aggressive about my recurrent suicidal depressions or just kill myself already. So I got medication sorted out. With my brain safely in a lifevest, I finally understood that something else was profoundly wrong with my life. So I started digging through the library. Psychology, philosophy, self-help. It took months of false leads, including worrying that I had BPD myself (I actually felt sorry for my parents at that point, having a BPD daughter). My therapist vetoed BPD. Finally, I came upon all the material about children of narcissists and BPD. That was in January. I read whatever I could find, I found this board and read everyone else's experiences and joined in the conversations. I wrote down everything. I started with the memories, the things they screamed at me, the names they called me, the lies they told me. Everything. I wrote down how I felt. I wrote down all of the things I thought were wrong with me, and all of the things that weren't, and all of the things I didn't want to do anymore. I still keep a notebook with me for when I think of something on the subway or in the grocery store. I cried A LOT. I don't know why, but I'm getting better. I cry less, and I've started to react to the world in healthier ways. Sort of like having ten months of guitar lessons- gradually you don't have to look at the frets anymore. Unlike depression and PTSD, grief is a healthy, natural process. I think that the brain/psyche/spirit can grieve and accept if it is offered truth, just as the lungs can breathe if they are given air. You don't have to sit down and have a grief-fest every night, you just have to keep exposing yourself to the truth, in whatever dose you can handle. Peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to let go when your BPD nada has her good days -- > I think > > > > > > it's the old behaviorism " inconsistent reinforcement " at work. > Basically, > > > > > > if your nada were vicious all the time, you'd find it relatively > easy to > > > > > > get away (if you survived to be old enough.) And if she were nice > all the > > > > > > time, of course, you wouldn't be afraid of what would happen if > you needed > > > > > > to get some distance, so you would be able to get as much distance > as you > > > > > > felt you needed to reach adult separation. But combine > sometimes-nice, > > > > > > sometimes-vicious, and you get this setup where you keep going > back, hoping > > > > > > for the " nice " but never being sure when or if she's going to show > -- and > > > > > > being afraid of what the " vicious " will do if you actually break > away > > > > > > completely. I think it's a really, really hard bond to break -- I > have a > > > > > > lot of trouble with the same thing myself. I've been attending > Al-Anon to > > > > > > work on " letting go " of my desire to " fix " my nada, and to try to > > > > > > de-condition myself from believing that there is ANYTHING I can do > to make > > > > > > her stay " nice " all the time. There isn't, she won't, and although > it's > > > > > > hard to give up that hope, it's the only real way to grow and > separate > > > > > > properly, in my opinion. Not everyone benefits from Al-Anon (the > groups > > > > > > vary a lot and you might not be able to find one that fits) but > there's a > > > > > > heavy focus there on learning to give up the hope of control and > " fixing " > > > > > > the messed-up person. > > > > > > > > > > > > You could also try reading " Codependent No More " by Melody Beattie > -- I've > > > > > > known several people who found it helpful in breaking away from > > > > > > codependency. Codependency has various definitions in various > places, but > > > > > > the one used in this book applies to us -- it's when it seems like > the > > > > > > whole of your emotional existence is bound up in trying to control > or fix > > > > > > someone in your life who you love but who is behaving in > unacceptable ways > > > > > > that are driving you literally crazy. In Beattie's definition, you > are > > > > > > codependent if you have come to believe that you can't be happy or > live a > > > > > > good life unless someone else changes, and you get fixated on > trying to > > > > > > force changes on someone else that can't be forced. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, the spirit you are trying to cultivate is known as > " detachment " in > > > > > > some circles, so you can try Googling that and seeing if any > useful advice > > > > > > pops up too. > > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck with it. At least your therapist is trying to nudge you > to detach > > > > > > -- the one I had before (that I dumped!) kept trying to insinuate > that I > > > > > > should NOT detach from nada. So now I have a new therapist, thank > God. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Jen H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Thanks for sharing your experience, Elmtree. I think you've shared another profound insight and it resonates with me: that grieving isn't as much of a " doing " as an " allowing. " Another insight is that exposing yourself to the memories: the truth of what actually happened to you, is a way of allowing the grieving to happen. I did the same thing as you. I started keeping what I called a " retro diary " : I wrote down my clear memories, and began jotting down new memories and memory fragments as they surfaced (without trying to place them in time, just jotting as they came to me.) Each act of writing down old and recently-resurfaced memories was another opportunity to face the truth and grieve it. As children its vital for our survival to shield our mind from the reality that (in some cases, like the case with my Sister and me) we are completely and abjectly dependent on a mother (or father) who may actually be dangerous to us, may actually abandon us, who may actually not even love us and who may even resent us, and demonstrates that to us with chronic emotional abuse, or emotional or physical neglect, or physical abuse, or sexual abuse. (Or by allowing the abuse to happen, as was the case with my sweet but enmeshed and enabling dad who wasn't even home when most of nada's worst, most abusive behaviors happened to Sister and me. A tiny child would lose the will to live if that reality penetrated into the child's psyche, so the child's mind automatically, subconsciously shields itself in denial. Its an unconscious survival mechanism. But as adults with our own power to care for and nurture ourselves, its now safe for us to allow the memories in fully, and safe to grieve. And safe to heal. -Annie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to let go when your BPD nada has her good days -- > > I think > > > > > > > it's the old behaviorism " inconsistent reinforcement " at work. > > Basically, > > > > > > > if your nada were vicious all the time, you'd find it relatively > > easy to > > > > > > > get away (if you survived to be old enough.) And if she were nice > > all the > > > > > > > time, of course, you wouldn't be afraid of what would happen if > > you needed > > > > > > > to get some distance, so you would be able to get as much distance > > as you > > > > > > > felt you needed to reach adult separation. But combine > > sometimes-nice, > > > > > > > sometimes-vicious, and you get this setup where you keep going > > back, hoping > > > > > > > for the " nice " but never being sure when or if she's going to show > > -- and > > > > > > > being afraid of what the " vicious " will do if you actually break > > away > > > > > > > completely. I think it's a really, really hard bond to break -- I > > have a > > > > > > > lot of trouble with the same thing myself. I've been attending > > Al-Anon to > > > > > > > work on " letting go " of my desire to " fix " my nada, and to try to > > > > > > > de-condition myself from believing that there is ANYTHING I can do > > to make > > > > > > > her stay " nice " all the time. There isn't, she won't, and although > > it's > > > > > > > hard to give up that hope, it's the only real way to grow and > > separate > > > > > > > properly, in my opinion. Not everyone benefits from Al-Anon (the > > groups > > > > > > > vary a lot and you might not be able to find one that fits) but > > there's a > > > > > > > heavy focus there on learning to give up the hope of control and > > " fixing " > > > > > > > the messed-up person. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You could also try reading " Codependent No More " by Melody Beattie > > -- I've > > > > > > > known several people who found it helpful in breaking away from > > > > > > > codependency. Codependency has various definitions in various > > places, but > > > > > > > the one used in this book applies to us -- it's when it seems like > > the > > > > > > > whole of your emotional existence is bound up in trying to control > > or fix > > > > > > > someone in your life who you love but who is behaving in > > unacceptable ways > > > > > > > that are driving you literally crazy. In Beattie's definition, you > > are > > > > > > > codependent if you have come to believe that you can't be happy or > > live a > > > > > > > good life unless someone else changes, and you get fixated on > > trying to > > > > > > > force changes on someone else that can't be forced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, the spirit you are trying to cultivate is known as > > " detachment " in > > > > > > > some circles, so you can try Googling that and seeing if any > > useful advice > > > > > > > pops up too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck with it. At least your therapist is trying to nudge you > > to detach > > > > > > > -- the one I had before (that I dumped!) kept trying to insinuate > > that I > > > > > > > should NOT detach from nada. So now I have a new therapist, thank > > God. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Jen H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Thank you so much for your reply, it means a lot to me to have others who understand. My husband is wonderful and supportive, but doesn't really " get it " , honestly how could he possibly? I have started to make notes here and there as thoughts come into my head, I think I may start a journal. I am still struggling with somewhere deep down believing the messages my parents have given me about myself. Even though my husband, my kids, my friends and my therapist all validate my feelings and my value as a person. I am so loved in so many ways I should feel blessed. But at my inner core I am still that 5 year old girl who has misbehaved and will be punished. It's disturbing to now realize that all my choices in life and my interactions with others have been based on that. It is like that guilt and shame holds me back from grieving, when I start to feel sad, then I start to feel shameful for daring to feel sad. I'll continue with looking within and recording notes. Thank you so much again, _____ From: WTOAdultChildren1 [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of elmtree_speaks Sent: October-07-12 10:38 PM To: WTOAdultChildren1 Subject: Re: Confused about letting go Hi , First, good for you for being here and for sticking to NC instead of getting " hoovered. " I think everyone here understands how strong that pull can be. All I can offer you is my own experience, and since it sounds like you're half a step behind me maybe it'll help. This recovery process is strange. My therapist also told me that I needed to grieve. Grieving is another one of those abstract concepts like forgiving and letting go and loving yourself that I find really annoying to be told to do. What do I do- spend an hour crying every day between going to the gym and packing tomorrow's lunch? Really? For me, it's turning out that grieving and recovering are not like going to the gym. They're not things I do, they're things that started to happen when I started to understand that they needed to happen. About two years ago I decided that I either had to do something aggressive about my recurrent suicidal depressions or just kill myself already. So I got medication sorted out. With my brain safely in a lifevest, I finally understood that something else was profoundly wrong with my life. So I started digging through the library. Psychology, philosophy, self-help. It took months of false leads, including worrying that I had BPD myself (I actually felt sorry for my parents at that point, having a BPD daughter). My therapist vetoed BPD. Finally, I came upon all the material about children of narcissists and BPD. That was in January. I read whatever I could find, I found this board and read everyone else's experiences and joined in the conversations. I wrote down everything. I started with the memories, the things they screamed at me, the names they called me, the lies they told me. Everything. I wrote down how I felt. I wrote down all of the things I thought were wrong with me, and all of the things that weren't, and all of the things I didn't want to do anymore. I still keep a notebook with me for when I think of something on the subway or in the grocery store. I cried A LOT. I don't know why, but I'm getting better. I cry less, and I've started to react to the world in healthier ways. Sort of like having ten months of guitar lessons- gradually you don't have to look at the frets anymore. Unlike depression and PTSD, grief is a healthy, natural process. I think that the brain/psyche/spirit can grieve and accept if it is offered truth, just as the lungs can breathe if they are given air. You don't have to sit down and have a grief-fest every night, you just have to keep exposing yourself to the truth, in whatever dose you can handle. Peace. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really hard to let go when your BPD nada has her good days -- > I think > > > > > > it's the old behaviorism " inconsistent reinforcement " at work. > Basically, > > > > > > if your nada were vicious all the time, you'd find it relatively > easy to > > > > > > get away (if you survived to be old enough.) And if she were nice > all the > > > > > > time, of course, you wouldn't be afraid of what would happen if > you needed > > > > > > to get some distance, so you would be able to get as much distance > as you > > > > > > felt you needed to reach adult separation. But combine > sometimes-nice, > > > > > > sometimes-vicious, and you get this setup where you keep going > back, hoping > > > > > > for the " nice " but never being sure when or if she's going to show > -- and > > > > > > being afraid of what the " vicious " will do if you actually break > away > > > > > > completely. I think it's a really, really hard bond to break -- I > have a > > > > > > lot of trouble with the same thing myself. I've been attending > Al-Anon to > > > > > > work on " letting go " of my desire to " fix " my nada, and to try to > > > > > > de-condition myself from believing that there is ANYTHING I can do > to make > > > > > > her stay " nice " all the time. There isn't, she won't, and although > it's > > > > > > hard to give up that hope, it's the only real way to grow and > separate > > > > > > properly, in my opinion. Not everyone benefits from Al-Anon (the > groups > > > > > > vary a lot and you might not be able to find one that fits) but > there's a > > > > > > heavy focus there on learning to give up the hope of control and > " fixing " > > > > > > the messed-up person. > > > > > > > > > > > > You could also try reading " Codependent No More " by Melody Beattie > -- I've > > > > > > known several people who found it helpful in breaking away from > > > > > > codependency. Codependency has various definitions in various > places, but > > > > > > the one used in this book applies to us -- it's when it seems like > the > > > > > > whole of your emotional existence is bound up in trying to control > or fix > > > > > > someone in your life who you love but who is behaving in > unacceptable ways > > > > > > that are driving you literally crazy. In Beattie's definition, you > are > > > > > > codependent if you have come to believe that you can't be happy or > live a > > > > > > good life unless someone else changes, and you get fixated on > trying to > > > > > > force changes on someone else that can't be forced. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, the spirit you are trying to cultivate is known as > " detachment " in > > > > > > some circles, so you can try Googling that and seeing if any > useful advice > > > > > > pops up too. > > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck with it. At least your therapist is trying to nudge you > to detach > > > > > > -- the one I had before (that I dumped!) kept trying to insinuate > that I > > > > > > should NOT detach from nada. So now I have a new therapist, thank > God. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Jen H. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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