Nada explains things.

[Guest guest]

this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks ago, asking her to

stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was getting too old (; this

lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my history I have had a serious

medical condition as long as I can remember (my sister says it started when I

was 3-ish)

that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have at least one huge

accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh, that's right she was

" helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily that I was " over-reacting "

to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail rather Ironic. It would be

hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on I will quit reading her

e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in the last one so I was

hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands of times, and I no longer

trust her to ever get it right. I don't care how she lives with herself, and I

think I need to tell her so, I am just not sure I want to even bother. she is

fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of my life. by her letter you would

wonder if I really even had a medical condition. I wish she would just drop it,

I never asked to her to explain her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave

this part of my life alone. in the here and now.

without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

Meikjn,

I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help your situation

and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was something going on but

was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about ask a REAL doctor) You

did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing was. I really did not

realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of symptoms and I didn't

think to ask. As far as I knew you had an occasional accident and for years and

years I thought you just had what the first dr. (urgent care guy) in ____said

you might have, a " spastic bladder " which acted up every once in a while. I

thought I had just failed at potty training and needed to help you establish as

routine. You hid the scope of it very well. You did your own laundry and once

in a while I would find bundled up piles of soiled underwear under the sink but

that was all. I know I should have done more and I will forever regret that. I

did take you to our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never really had a chance. we

quit going after just a few appointments, and lots of tests this was when I was

15. It was the first and last time she tried to help me, and she only did it

because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad. remember this was after at

least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get any satisfaction from him

either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so sorry you are suffering

so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it different if I could go

back. I really would love to hear about your trip to Baltimore and etc. How are

the girls liking school? I think about L. in kindergarten and can just imagine

her happy voice sharing her stories. What a sweetheart. I really do love you

Meikjn and always have and in spite of how inadequate my efforts were that will

never change. Please accept my apology again for my failure to meet your

needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it might be convincing

if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes I was never potty

trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please tell me you see it too.

Meikjn

[Guest guest]

I see it too. This is not an apology. It is her blaming you for

her failure to get you help for a medical problem.

I think that having approval from someone else before reading

any of her messages is a good choice.

At 10:29 PM 9/20/2012 Meikjn wrote:

>this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks

>ago, asking her to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I

>decided I was getting too old (; this lady is nuts. for those

>of you who have not read my history I have had a serious

>medical condition as long as I can remember (my sister says it

>started when I was 3-ish)

>that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have

>at least one huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment

>now, and

>doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh,

>that's right she was " helping me establish a routine " ), and

>told me daily that I was " over-reacting " to everything, etc,

>facts that make her e-mail rather Ironic. It would be hilarious

>if it did not hurt so much. from now on I will quit reading her

>e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in the last

>one so I was hopeful. she had her chance on this issue

>thousands of times, and I no longer trust her to ever get it

>right. I don't care how she lives with herself, and I think I

>need to tell her so, I am just not sure I want to even bother.

>she is fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of my life. by

>her letter you would wonder if I really even had a medical

>condition. I wish she would just drop it, I never asked to her

>to explain her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave this

>part of my life alone. in the here and now.

>

>without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

>

>Meikjn,

>I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help

>your situation and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew

>there was something going on but was really at a loss to know

>what to do. (Uhh.. how about ask a REAL doctor) You did a good

>job of hiding how serious the whole thing was. I really did

>not realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of

>symptoms and I didn't think to ask. As far as I knew you had an

>occasional accident and for years and years I thought you just

>had what the first dr. (urgent care guy) in ____said you might

>have, a " spastic bladder " which acted up every once in a while.

>I thought I had just failed at potty training and needed to

>help you establish as routine. You hid the scope of it very

>well. You did your own laundry and once in a while I would find

>bundled up piles of soiled underwear under the sink but that

>was all. I know I should have done more and I will forever

>regret that. I did take you to our local " expert " Dr.____ (he

>never really had a chance. we quit going after just a few

>appointments, and lots of tests this was when I was 15. It was

>the first and last time she tried to help me, and she only did

>it because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad.

>remember this was after at least 12 years of the disorder.) but

>we did not get any satisfaction from him either. I simply did

>not know what else to do. I am so sorry you are suffering so

>much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it different if

>I could go back. I really would love to hear about your trip to

>Baltimore and etc. How are the girls liking school? I think

>about L. in kindergarten and can just imagine her happy voice

>sharing her stories. What a sweetheart. I really do love you

>Meikjn and always have and in spite of how inadequate my

>efforts were that will never change. Please accept my apology

>again for my failure to meet your needs.(cue the tears!!) Love

>Mom

>

>this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it

>might be convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently

>she still believes I was never potty trained. she has been

>saying that my whole life. please tell me you see it too.

>

>Meikjn

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

I couldn't say it any better or clearer than this. Completely agree.

> I see it too. This is not an apology. It is her blaming you for

> her failure to get you help for a medical problem.

>

> I think that having approval from someone else before reading

> any of her messages is a good choice.

[Guest guest]

I agree also; its NOT an actual apology. It sort of dances around the concept,

but mostly its blaming you, the victim. I wouldn't respond to this e-mail if it

were sent to me.

-Annie

>

> > I see it too. This is not an apology. It is her blaming you for

> > her failure to get you help for a medical problem.

> >

> > I think that having approval from someone else before reading

> > any of her messages is a good choice.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree.

She's saying: You hid it so I didn't know but still sorry whatever. I want

back in so I can start controlling you guys. " I care! "

There's no winning with these people. It's their game and they're good at

it.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 12:15 AM, anuria67854 anuria-67854@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> I agree also; its NOT an actual apology. It sort of dances around the

> concept, but mostly its blaming you, the victim. I wouldn't respond to this

> e-mail if it were sent to me.

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > > I see it too. This is not an apology. It is her blaming you for

> > > her failure to get you help for a medical problem.

> > >

> > > I think that having approval from someone else before reading

> > > any of her messages is a good choice.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I wouldn't answer it either. And I probably would read her emails with caution,

if at all. I have a very similar situation (two actually), and I've gotten into

a couple fights with nada about them (of course that was before I knew about

BPD). You can guess where that got me.

I had a defect in my foot discovered at the age of 12, and the doctor gave me an

orthotic to try. I kept complaining, but nada would yell at me to wear my

orthotic (I was). After 20 years of pain, I finally had surgery this year.

Right before the surgery, nada got drunk and started going on about how guilty

she felt about not getting it fixed when I was a kid but she thought I was just

being " bratty. " Later she told me that from birth I never wanted to walk

anywhere far and would whine about it. She said, " god, you were SO obnoxious! "

I said, " no, I was a suffering little kid who worked really hard to walk, " but

she kept repeating, " you were obnoxious! "

Before I decided she was bats--t crazy, I had a few major screaming matches

about her failure to notice how unhappy I was as a kid. One of my brothers is

handicapped, and I wasn't allowed to talk about it because that would be

" treating him differently. " I told her as an adult that when I was seven I saw

a flyer on her desk with some papers about his special school that announced a

weekly group for siblings. I wondered if I'd get to go, but I didn't want to

ask because they would be angry at me for admitting that I didn't love my

brother. I told nada about that as an adult, and she screamed that I was a very

happy child and if I wanted to go to that group I should have asked, since after

all I was very articulate.

When I look back on those arguments, I can see that I wanted so desperately for

my mother to tell me that she could see now that I was a little child in pain

and she wishes that she hadn't been too stressed out at the time to recognize

that and get me help. I wanted her to say " poor little thing, I wish I'd had

the energy then to pay attention to you. " But no, she blamed me. She sees me

now as she saw me then- a selfish child intentionally " torturing " her with bad

behavior.

Confronting nada about this stuff really just leads to more rejection and a

reminder that I never had and will never have a real mother.

>

> this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks ago, asking her

to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was getting too old (;

this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my history I have had a

serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my sister says it started

when I was 3-ish)

> that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have at least one

huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh, that's right she

was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily that I was

" over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail rather Ironic. It

would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on I will quit reading

her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in the last one so I was

hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands of times, and I no longer

trust her to ever get it right. I don't care how she lives with herself, and I

think I need to tell her so, I am just not sure I want to even bother. she is

fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of my life. by her letter you would

wonder if I really even had a medical condition. I wish she would just drop it,

I never asked to her to explain her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave

this part of my life alone. in the here and now.

>

> without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

>

> Meikjn,

> I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help your situation

and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was something going on but

was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about ask a REAL doctor) You

did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing was. I really did not

realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of symptoms and I didn't

think to ask. As far as I knew you had an occasional accident and for years and

years I thought you just had what the first dr. (urgent care guy) in ____said

you might have, a " spastic bladder " which acted up every once in a while. I

thought I had just failed at potty training and needed to help you establish as

routine. You hid the scope of it very well. You did your own laundry and once

in a while I would find bundled up piles of soiled underwear under the sink but

that was all. I know I should have done more and I will forever regret that. I

did take you to our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never really had a chance. we

quit going after just a few appointments, and lots of tests this was when I was

15. It was the first and last time she tried to help me, and she only did it

because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad. remember this was after at

least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get any satisfaction from him

either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so sorry you are suffering

so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it different if I could go

back. I really would love to hear about your trip to Baltimore and etc. How are

the girls liking school? I think about L. in kindergarten and can just imagine

her happy voice sharing her stories. What a sweetheart. I really do love you

Meikjn and always have and in spite of how inadequate my efforts were that will

never change. Please accept my apology again for my failure to meet your

needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

>

> this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it might be

convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes I was

never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please tell me you

see it too.

>

> Meikjn

>

[Guest guest]

Is your mom a therapist Meijkin?

I agree with everything the other posters have said. I just want to say that if

I had ever received something like this from Nada I would have been tearing down

the door groveling for love because if you ignore ALL the times she puts the

blame back on you and your " inability " to communicate your needs to your mother

(which I would have done prior to the GA [Great Awareness - can we add this

acronym to the list? - or Eureka Moment EM is another I love).

But she does talk a much better talk taking the blame a few times before quickly

offloading it back to you.

I'd almost be interested in editing it into two letters, separating the

sentences that take the blame and give the blame. It would be interesting to

read as two documents and see how they really contradict each other perhaps? OK,

my overanalyticalness is presenting. Guess I should go for a run.

Then I would send them back to Nada and ask which letter she meant to send? But

of course, that would be counterproductive because you do not justify, deny,

argue explain or whatever. Good for a chapter in the memoir however.

Jaleo

>

> this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks ago, asking her

to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was getting too old (;

this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my history I have had a

serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my sister says it started

when I was 3-ish)

> that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have at least one

huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh, that's right she

was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily that I was

" over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail rather Ironic. It

would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on I will quit reading

her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in the last one so I was

hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands of times, and I no longer

trust her to ever get it right. I don't care how she lives with herself, and I

think I need to tell her so, I am just not sure I want to even bother. she is

fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of my life. by her letter you would

wonder if I really even had a medical condition. I wish she would just drop it,

I never asked to her to explain her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave

this part of my life alone. in the here and now.

>

> without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

>

> Meikjn,

> I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help your situation

and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was something going on but

was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about ask a REAL doctor) You

did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing was. I really did not

realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of symptoms and I didn't

think to ask. As far as I knew you had an occasional accident and for years and

years I thought you just had what the first dr. (urgent care guy) in ____said

you might have, a " spastic bladder " which acted up every once in a while. I

thought I had just failed at potty training and needed to help you establish as

routine. You hid the scope of it very well. You did your own laundry and once

in a while I would find bundled up piles of soiled underwear under the sink but

that was all. I know I should have done more and I will forever regret that. I

did take you to our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never really had a chance. we

quit going after just a few appointments, and lots of tests this was when I was

15. It was the first and last time she tried to help me, and she only did it

because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad. remember this was after at

least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get any satisfaction from him

either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so sorry you are suffering

so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it different if I could go

back. I really would love to hear about your trip to Baltimore and etc. How are

the girls liking school? I think about L. in kindergarten and can just imagine

her happy voice sharing her stories. What a sweetheart. I really do love you

Meikjn and always have and in spite of how inadequate my efforts were that will

never change. Please accept my apology again for my failure to meet your

needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

>

> this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it might be

convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes I was

never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please tell me you

see it too.

>

> Meikjn

>

[Guest guest]

I did not even ask her about all of that. I just asked her to stop abusing me

NOW for the symptoms when they occur. This is the second e-mail like this. The

1st blamed various urgent care doctors, and me as well. but that was how she

addressed the " why " for her abuse. apparently she was abusive on " bad advice for

doctors " I never asked for any of her excuses, I just want her to stop saying

her crap about it now. and stop telling me to go to the bathroom it is really

really inappropriate.

Meikjn

> >

> > this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks ago, asking her

to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was getting too old (;

this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my history I have had a

serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my sister says it started

when I was 3-ish)

> > that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have at least one

huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> > doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh, that's right she

was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily that I was

" over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail rather Ironic. It

would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on I will quit reading

her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in the last one so I was

hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands of times, and I no longer

trust her to ever get it right. I don't care how she lives with herself, and I

think I need to tell her so, I am just not sure I want to even bother. she is

fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of my life. by her letter you would

wonder if I really even had a medical condition. I wish she would just drop it,

I never asked to her to explain her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave

this part of my life alone. in the here and now.

> >

> > without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

> >

> > Meikjn,

> > I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help your

situation and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was something

going on but was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about ask a

REAL doctor) You did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing was. I

really did not realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of symptoms

and I didn't think to ask. As far as I knew you had an occasional accident and

for years and years I thought you just had what the first dr. (urgent care guy)

in ____said you might have, a " spastic bladder " which acted up every once in a

while. I thought I had just failed at potty training and needed to help you

establish as routine. You hid the scope of it very well. You did your own

laundry and once in a while I would find bundled up piles of soiled underwear

under the sink but that was all. I know I should have done more and I will

forever regret that. I did take you to our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never

really had a chance. we quit going after just a few appointments, and lots of

tests this was when I was 15. It was the first and last time she tried to help

me, and she only did it because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad.

remember this was after at least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get

any satisfaction from him either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so

sorry you are suffering so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it

different if I could go back. I really would love to hear about your trip to

Baltimore and etc. How are the girls liking school? I think about L. in

kindergarten and can just imagine her happy voice sharing her stories. What a

sweetheart. I really do love you Meikjn and always have and in spite of how

inadequate my efforts were that will never change. Please accept my apology

again for my failure to meet your needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

> >

> > this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it might be

convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes I was

never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please tell me you

see it too.

> >

> > Meikjn

> >

>

[Guest guest]

When I was in my early 40's, my nada and I were having a conversation and she

casually and sort of out of the blue said, " You know, I was so, so happy to

find that I was pregnant again, because I had given up on having a real, loving

mother-daughter relationship with you by the time you were three. You hated me

and rejected me as a mother. So I thought, " Thank you God, this will be my

second chance to be loved. " " Then she looked at me with big wet eyes, like she

expected me to apologize to her for having been a hateful, unloving toddler.

I was quite poleaxed with astonishment, and kind of frozen for a few moments.

Suddenly, so many puzzle pieces fell into place RE my love-hate relationship

with my own mother.

It was truly an " Oh. My. God. " moment, that explained so much. I think that was

the first time as an adult I began to perceive that something about the way my

mother's mind worked was NOT NORMAL.

It took another 10 years before I experienced my nada turning her paranoia on

full force *at someone other than me, Sister or Dad, that I personally knew was

blameless* that I had my second light-bulb moment. It became clearer that my

mother's belief that other people were out to " get her " and deliberately hurt

her feelings was truly NOT NORMAL because it was not based on reality.

Throughout my life she'd blamed me for countless attacks on her feelings, for

deliberately disappointing her or for deliberately making her rage at me, and I

believed her. I felt guilty; she was perceiving my own repressed feelings of

outrage and so of course I was deliberately provoking her. But when I saw her

do that to someone else (a dear elderly aunt of hers/my great-aunt who didn't

have a mean bone in her body) I was able to observe my mother's abnormal

mind-set more objectively, and it was like a big bank of lightbulbs went on.

The term " borderline pd " was coined originally because the authors of the DSM at

the time believed that the disorder was on the " border " between neurosis and

psychosis. In my own nada's case, I think that line of thinking was very

applicable. *Transient* paranoia + delusional thinking is currently diagnostic

criteria #9 for bpd, but my nada had a double or triple helping of it. Her

paranoia and delusional thinking were (in retrospect) pretty much present all

the time, not " transient " , and in retrospect a lot of her behaviors toward me

and others reflect underlying paranoia and delusional thinking.

Its just a tragedy that someone who is genuinely semi-psychotic (paranoia and

delusional thinking are part of dementia), someone who lacks empathy, and

someone who cannot relate to their child as the unique individual that the child

is, and instead " assigns " or projects onto the child motives and feelings from

out of her own warped, distorted mind and then attacks or blames the child for

saying, doing, or thinking things the child never thought, said or did... should

be caring for a child or children.

I think that such a person is way, way too mentally ill to be providing child

care; its cruel to leave a child in the care of someone who chronically blames

and punishes the child for things the child didn't do. Its an act of cruelty to

leave a child in the care of someone who can literally drive the child insane.

-Annie

> >

> > this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks ago, asking her

to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was getting too old (;

this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my history I have had a

serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my sister says it started

when I was 3-ish)

> > that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have at least one

huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> > doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh, that's right she

was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily that I was

" over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail rather Ironic. It

would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on I will quit reading

her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in the last one so I was

hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands of times, and I no longer

trust her to ever get it right. I don't care how she lives with herself, and I

think I need to tell her so, I am just not sure I want to even bother. she is

fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of my life. by her letter you would

wonder if I really even had a medical condition. I wish she would just drop it,

I never asked to her to explain her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave

this part of my life alone. in the here and now.

> >

> > without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

> >

> > Meikjn,

> > I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help your

situation and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was something

going on but was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about ask a

REAL doctor) You did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing was. I

really did not realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of symptoms

and I didn't think to ask. As far as I knew you had an occasional accident and

for years and years I thought you just had what the first dr. (urgent care guy)

in ____said you might have, a " spastic bladder " which acted up every once in a

while. I thought I had just failed at potty training and needed to help you

establish as routine. You hid the scope of it very well. You did your own

laundry and once in a while I would find bundled up piles of soiled underwear

under the sink but that was all. I know I should have done more and I will

forever regret that. I did take you to our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never

really had a chance. we quit going after just a few appointments, and lots of

tests this was when I was 15. It was the first and last time she tried to help

me, and she only did it because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad.

remember this was after at least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get

any satisfaction from him either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so

sorry you are suffering so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it

different if I could go back. I really would love to hear about your trip to

Baltimore and etc. How are the girls liking school? I think about L. in

kindergarten and can just imagine her happy voice sharing her stories. What a

sweetheart. I really do love you Meikjn and always have and in spite of how

inadequate my efforts were that will never change. Please accept my apology

again for my failure to meet your needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

> >

> > this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it might be

convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes I was

never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please tell me you

see it too.

> >

> > Meikjn

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Me personally, I think that if you can either cut the phone call or the visit

OFF at the moment she violates that boundary, that's probably the only thing

that will work if you've tried everything else and nothing has worked so far.

The moment the words are out of her mouth, you remind her very calmly but

firmly, " You told me to go to the bathroom again, mom. That means this visit

is over. Talk to you later. 'bye. " And then you actually leave.

But you have to be very consistent. YOU have to be both willing and able to

give that consequence EVERY SINGLE TIME she says that to you, and IMMEDIATELY,

or it won't work.

So, eventually, if your nada wants to spend time with you, she will have to

learn to control herself.

Of course, you have to figure out what will and will not be doable for you,

personally, but that's the way I'd handle it.

-Annie

> > >

> > > this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks ago, asking

her to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was getting too old (;

this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my history I have had a

serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my sister says it started

when I was 3-ish)

> > > that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have at least

one huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> > > doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh, that's right

she was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily that I was

" over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail rather Ironic. It

would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on I will quit reading

her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in the last one so I was

hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands of times, and I no longer

trust her to ever get it right. I don't care how she lives with herself, and I

think I need to tell her so, I am just not sure I want to even bother. she is

fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of my life. by her letter you would

wonder if I really even had a medical condition. I wish she would just drop it,

I never asked to her to explain her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave

this part of my life alone. in the here and now.

> > >

> > > without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

> > >

> > > Meikjn,

> > > I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help your

situation and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was something

going on but was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about ask a

REAL doctor) You did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing was. I

really did not realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of symptoms

and I didn't think to ask. As far as I knew you had an occasional accident and

for years and years I thought you just had what the first dr. (urgent care guy)

in ____said you might have, a " spastic bladder " which acted up every once in a

while. I thought I had just failed at potty training and needed to help you

establish as routine. You hid the scope of it very well. You did your own

laundry and once in a while I would find bundled up piles of soiled underwear

under the sink but that was all. I know I should have done more and I will

forever regret that. I did take you to our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never

really had a chance. we quit going after just a few appointments, and lots of

tests this was when I was 15. It was the first and last time she tried to help

me, and she only did it because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad.

remember this was after at least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get

any satisfaction from him either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so

sorry you are suffering so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it

different if I could go back. I really would love to hear about your trip to

Baltimore and etc. How are the girls liking school? I think about L. in

kindergarten and can just imagine her happy voice sharing her stories. What a

sweetheart. I really do love you Meikjn and always have and in spite of how

inadequate my efforts were that will never change. Please accept my apology

again for my failure to meet your needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

> > >

> > > this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it might be

convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes I was

never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please tell me you

see it too.

> > >

> > > Meikjn

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I agree. . . we have to be the parents and train them.

jwjrenslow@...> jwjrenslow@...

_____

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of anuria67854

Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 10:59 AM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Nada " explains " things.

Me personally, I think that if you can either cut the phone call or the

visit OFF at the moment she violates that boundary, that's probably the only

thing that will work if you've tried everything else and nothing has worked

so far.

The moment the words are out of her mouth, you remind her very calmly but

firmly, " You told me to go to the bathroom again, mom. That means this visit

is over. Talk to you later. 'bye. " And then you actually leave.

But you have to be very consistent. YOU have to be both willing and able to

give that consequence EVERY SINGLE TIME she says that to you, and

IMMEDIATELY, or it won't work.

So, eventually, if your nada wants to spend time with you, she will have to

learn to control herself.

Of course, you have to figure out what will and will not be doable for you,

personally, but that's the way I'd handle it.

-Annie

> > >

> > > this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks ago,

asking her to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was getting

too old (; this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my history

I have had a serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my sister

says it started when I was 3-ish)

> > > that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have at

least one huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> > > doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh, that's

right she was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily that I

was " over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail rather

Ironic. It would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on I will

quit reading her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in the

last one so I was hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands of

times, and I no longer trust her to ever get it right. I don't care how she

lives with herself, and I think I need to tell her so, I am just not sure I

want to even bother. she is fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of my

life. by her letter you would wonder if I really even had a medical

condition. I wish she would just drop it, I never asked to her to explain

her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave this part of my life alone.

in the here and now.

> > >

> > > without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

> > >

> > > Meikjn,

> > > I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help your

situation and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was something

going on but was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about ask a

REAL doctor) You did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing was. I

really did not realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of

symptoms and I didn't think to ask. As far as I knew you had an occasional

accident and for years and years I thought you just had what the first dr.

(urgent care guy) in ____said you might have, a " spastic bladder " which

acted up every once in a while. I thought I had just failed at potty

training and needed to help you establish as routine. You hid the scope of

it very well. You did your own laundry and once in a while I would find

bundled up piles of soiled underwear under the sink but that was all. I know

I should have done more and I will forever regret that. I did take you to

our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never really had a chance. we quit going

after just a few appointments, and lots of tests this was when I was 15. It

was the first and last time she tried to help me, and she only did it

because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad. remember this was after

at least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get any satisfaction from

him either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so sorry you are

suffering so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it different if

I could go back. I really would love to hear about your trip to Baltimore

and etc. How are the girls liking school? I think about L. in kindergarten

and can just imagine her happy voice sharing her stories. What a sweetheart.

I really do love you Meikjn and always have and in spite of how inadequate

my efforts were that will never change. Please accept my apology again for

my failure to meet your needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

> > >

> > > this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it might be

convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes I was

never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please tell me

you see it too.

> > >

> > > Meikjn

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Meikn,

I also was thinking she was shaming you. The going to the bathroom comments

are about shaming you. So she broke your mind through mental torture and

control and games and then when you got broken by it she shamed you. So

don't know if I'm perceiving it right but I'd stay away.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Renslow jwjrenslow@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> I agree. . . we have to be the parents and train them.

>

>

>

> jwjrenslow@...> jwjrenslow@...

>

> _____

>

> From: WTOAdultChildren1

> [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of anuria67854

> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 10:59 AM

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Subject: Re: Nada " explains " things.

>

>

> Me personally, I think that if you can either cut the phone call or the

> visit OFF at the moment she violates that boundary, that's probably the

> only

> thing that will work if you've tried everything else and nothing has worked

> so far.

>

> The moment the words are out of her mouth, you remind her very calmly but

> firmly, " You told me to go to the bathroom again, mom. That means this

> visit

> is over. Talk to you later. 'bye. " And then you actually leave.

>

> But you have to be very consistent. YOU have to be both willing and able to

> give that consequence EVERY SINGLE TIME she says that to you, and

> IMMEDIATELY, or it won't work.

>

> So, eventually, if your nada wants to spend time with you, she will have to

> learn to control herself.

>

> Of course, you have to figure out what will and will not be doable for you,

> personally, but that's the way I'd handle it.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> > > >

> > > > this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks ago,

> asking her to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was

> getting

> too old (; this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my history

> I have had a serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my sister

> says it started when I was 3-ish)

> > > > that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have at

> least one huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> > > > doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh, that's

> right she was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily that I

> was " over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail rather

> Ironic. It would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on I

> will

> quit reading her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in the

> last one so I was hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands of

> times, and I no longer trust her to ever get it right. I don't care how she

> lives with herself, and I think I need to tell her so, I am just not sure I

> want to even bother. she is fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of my

> life. by her letter you would wonder if I really even had a medical

> condition. I wish she would just drop it, I never asked to her to explain

> her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave this part of my life alone.

> in the here and now.

> > > >

> > > > without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

> > > >

> > > > Meikjn,

> > > > I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help your

> situation and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was

> something

> going on but was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about ask

> a

> REAL doctor) You did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing was.

> I

> really did not realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of

> symptoms and I didn't think to ask. As far as I knew you had an occasional

> accident and for years and years I thought you just had what the first dr.

> (urgent care guy) in ____said you might have, a " spastic bladder " which

> acted up every once in a while. I thought I had just failed at potty

> training and needed to help you establish as routine. You hid the scope of

> it very well. You did your own laundry and once in a while I would find

> bundled up piles of soiled underwear under the sink but that was all. I

> know

> I should have done more and I will forever regret that. I did take you to

> our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never really had a chance. we quit going

> after just a few appointments, and lots of tests this was when I was 15. It

> was the first and last time she tried to help me, and she only did it

> because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad. remember this was

> after

> at least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get any satisfaction

> from

> him either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so sorry you are

> suffering so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it different if

> I could go back. I really would love to hear about your trip to Baltimore

> and etc. How are the girls liking school? I think about L. in kindergarten

> and can just imagine her happy voice sharing her stories. What a

> sweetheart.

> I really do love you Meikjn and always have and in spite of how inadequate

> my efforts were that will never change. Please accept my apology again for

> my failure to meet your needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

> > > >

> > > > this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it might be

> convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes I

> was

> never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please tell me

> you see it too.

> > > >

> > > > Meikjn

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

" When I was in my early 40's, my nada and I were having a conversation and she

casually and sort of out of the blue said, " You know, I was so, so happy to find

that I was pregnant again, because I had given up on having a real, loving

mother-daughter relationship with you by the time you were three. You hated me

and rejected me as a mother. So I thought, " Thank you God, this will be my

second chance to be loved. " " Then she looked at me with big wet eyes, like she

expected me to apologize to her for having been a hateful, unloving toddler. "

This REALLY sounds familiar to me. When I was 13 my nada became pregnant. I was

an only child until then and she kept telling me this was her second chance.

That maybe this child would love her and not my father etc. she even used to

sing the Ace of Base song " all that she wants " because she said the lyrics rang

true to her. I remember getting into it with her one day when she repeatedly

said " I'm so glad I'm getting this second chance to get things right " and

finally I retorted with " right, because I'm so WRONG! " And I remember her flying

off into a violent rage over it (and greatly regretting my words).

The more I read the more I know I was correct that my nada has bpd.

> When I was in my early 40's, my nada and I were having a conversation and she

casually and sort of out of the blue said, " You know, I was so, so happy to find

that I was pregnant again, because I had given up on having a real, loving

mother-daughter relationship with you by the time you were three. You hated me

and rejected me as a mother. So I thought, " Thank you God, this will be my

second chance to be loved. " " Then she looked at me with big wet eyes, like she

expected me to apologize to her for having been a hateful, unloving toddler.

[Guest guest]

It also scares me because my nada is apparently a bus driver now where se lives.

Who thought she is qualified to drive a giant vehicle with lots of sweet

children is beside me. It scares me to think about it.

" I think that such a person is way, way too mentally ill to be providing child

care; its cruel to leave a child in the care of someone who chronically blames

and punishes the child for things the child didn't do. Its an act of cruelty to

leave a child in the care of someone who can literally drive the child insane. "

>

> I think that such a person is way, way too mentally ill to be providing child

care; its cruel to leave a child in the care of someone who chronically blames

and punishes the child for things the child didn't do. Its an act of cruelty to

leave a child in the care of someone who can literally drive the child insane.

[Guest guest]

HA! I don't know about driving a bus. My nada is a terrible driver since

her thoughts are never on the task at hand, but it amuses me now that my

mother was an in-home day care provider for many years. She only took

children under 5 - not school age kids. They were the only ones who

couldn't tell their parents what she was doing. One time she tied a little

boy to the chair with a dish rag because he wouldn't stay in his seat during

lunch. Odd thing is that everyone thought she was such a great day-care

lady because she knew how to " act " like she cared about the kids so much

when the parents came to get them. Looking back at it I understand why she

did day care 1) it provided her money because working in an environment with

adults was not possible for her and 2) she could enjoy total domination and

control over (little) people. However a year after she quit day-care and

was watching my son she complained about how much trouble it was to be tied

down to an infant. . . yeah right!

jwjrenslow@...> jwjrenslow@...

_____

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of Jenn S.

Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 7:27 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Re: Nada " explains " things.

It also scares me because my nada is apparently a bus driver now where se

lives. Who thought she is qualified to drive a giant vehicle with lots of

sweet children is beside me. It scares me to think about it.

" I think that such a person is way, way too mentally ill to be providing

child care; its cruel to leave a child in the care of someone who

chronically blames and punishes the child for things the child didn't do.

Its an act of cruelty to leave a child in the care of someone who can

literally drive the child insane. "

On Sep 21, 2012, at 11:34 AM, " anuria67854 " anuria-67854@...

> wrote:

>

> I think that such a person is way, way too mentally ill to be providing

child care; its cruel to leave a child in the care of someone who

chronically blames and punishes the child for things the child didn't do.

Its an act of cruelty to leave a child in the care of someone who can

literally drive the child insane.

[Guest guest]

That's sad. Very!

I can see how that type of situation would benefit a bpd. My mom does cleaning

jobs and refuses to work when people are in the house. She can't work with other

adults. The bus job seems to suit her because she can yell at kids and rack it

up to safety I suppose? All I can picture when I think of her driving a bus is

the crazy bus driver from South Park with birds in her hair. Perhaps I'm biased

a bit?

> HA! I don't know about driving a bus. My nada is a terrible driver since

> her thoughts are never on the task at hand, but it amuses me now that my

> mother was an in-home day care provider for many years. She only took

> children under 5 - not school age kids. They were the only ones who

> couldn't tell their parents what she was doing. One time she tied a little

> boy to the chair with a dish rag because he wouldn't stay in his seat during

> lunch. Odd thing is that everyone thought she was such a great day-care

> lady because she knew how to " act " like she cared about the kids so much

> when the parents came to get them. Looking back at it I understand why she

> did day care 1) it provided her money because working in an environment with

> adults was not possible for her and 2) she could enjoy total domination and

> control over (little) people. However a year after she quit day-care and

> was watching my son she complained about how much trouble it was to be tied

> down to an infant. . . yeah right!

>

>

>

> jwjrenslow@...> jwjrenslow@...

>

> _____

>

> From: WTOAdultChildren1

> [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of Jenn S.

> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 7:27 PM

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Subject: Re: Re: Nada " explains " things.

>

> It also scares me because my nada is apparently a bus driver now where se

> lives. Who thought she is qualified to drive a giant vehicle with lots of

> sweet children is beside me. It scares me to think about it.

>

> " I think that such a person is way, way too mentally ill to be providing

> child care; its cruel to leave a child in the care of someone who

> chronically blames and punishes the child for things the child didn't do.

> Its an act of cruelty to leave a child in the care of someone who can

> literally drive the child insane. "

>

> On Sep 21, 2012, at 11:34 AM, " anuria67854 " anuria-67854@...

> > wrote:

>

> >

> > I think that such a person is way, way too mentally ill to be providing

> child care; its cruel to leave a child in the care of someone who

> chronically blames and punishes the child for things the child didn't do.

> Its an act of cruelty to leave a child in the care of someone who can

> literally drive the child insane.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with this in principle, but there are problems in practice. Every time

I've tried this, it brings down a torrent of belittling and ridicule, if not a

full rage. Two reasons: 1) PDs have a hard time perceiving cause and effect to

begin with, and 2) she's gotten away with it for years. Telling you to go to

the bathroom is a pure sadistic boundary violation, which is one of the great

joys of the nada life. She's not going to let you take that from her.

> > > >

> > > > this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks ago,

> asking her to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was getting

> too old (; this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my history

> I have had a serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my sister

> says it started when I was 3-ish)

> > > > that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have at

> least one huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> > > > doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh, that's

> right she was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily that I

> was " over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail rather

> Ironic. It would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on I will

> quit reading her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in the

> last one so I was hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands of

> times, and I no longer trust her to ever get it right. I don't care how she

> lives with herself, and I think I need to tell her so, I am just not sure I

> want to even bother. she is fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of my

> life. by her letter you would wonder if I really even had a medical

> condition. I wish she would just drop it, I never asked to her to explain

> her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave this part of my life alone.

> in the here and now.

> > > >

> > > > without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

> > > >

> > > > Meikjn,

> > > > I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help your

> situation and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was something

> going on but was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about ask a

> REAL doctor) You did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing was. I

> really did not realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of

> symptoms and I didn't think to ask. As far as I knew you had an occasional

> accident and for years and years I thought you just had what the first dr.

> (urgent care guy) in ____said you might have, a " spastic bladder " which

> acted up every once in a while. I thought I had just failed at potty

> training and needed to help you establish as routine. You hid the scope of

> it very well. You did your own laundry and once in a while I would find

> bundled up piles of soiled underwear under the sink but that was all. I know

> I should have done more and I will forever regret that. I did take you to

> our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never really had a chance. we quit going

> after just a few appointments, and lots of tests this was when I was 15. It

> was the first and last time she tried to help me, and she only did it

> because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad. remember this was after

> at least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get any satisfaction from

> him either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so sorry you are

> suffering so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it different if

> I could go back. I really would love to hear about your trip to Baltimore

> and etc. How are the girls liking school? I think about L. in kindergarten

> and can just imagine her happy voice sharing her stories. What a sweetheart.

> I really do love you Meikjn and always have and in spite of how inadequate

> my efforts were that will never change. Please accept my apology again for

> my failure to meet your needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

> > > >

> > > > this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it might be

> convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes I was

> never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please tell me

> you see it too.

> > > >

> > > > Meikjn

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for this Annie. I posted another thread about having just spoken to

the psychiatrist who saw me at age four, and was treating my parents. I knew he

had to maintain their confidentiality, but I almost broke down and asked him why

he didn't help me. He must have known that neither of them should have been

taking care of children.

It' taboo in our culture to criticize parents, mothers especially, and if a

mother says she " loves " her children it justifies almost anything.

> > >

> > > this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks ago, asking

her to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was getting too old (;

this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my history I have had a

serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my sister says it started

when I was 3-ish)

> > > that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have at least

one huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> > > doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh, that's right

she was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily that I was

" over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail rather Ironic. It

would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on I will quit reading

her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in the last one so I was

hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands of times, and I no longer

trust her to ever get it right. I don't care how she lives with herself, and I

think I need to tell her so, I am just not sure I want to even bother. she is

fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of my life. by her letter you would

wonder if I really even had a medical condition. I wish she would just drop it,

I never asked to her to explain her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave

this part of my life alone. in the here and now.

> > >

> > > without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

> > >

> > > Meikjn,

> > > I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help your

situation and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was something

going on but was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about ask a

REAL doctor) You did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing was. I

really did not realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of symptoms

and I didn't think to ask. As far as I knew you had an occasional accident and

for years and years I thought you just had what the first dr. (urgent care guy)

in ____said you might have, a " spastic bladder " which acted up every once in a

while. I thought I had just failed at potty training and needed to help you

establish as routine. You hid the scope of it very well. You did your own

laundry and once in a while I would find bundled up piles of soiled underwear

under the sink but that was all. I know I should have done more and I will

forever regret that. I did take you to our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never

really had a chance. we quit going after just a few appointments, and lots of

tests this was when I was 15. It was the first and last time she tried to help

me, and she only did it because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad.

remember this was after at least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get

any satisfaction from him either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so

sorry you are suffering so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it

different if I could go back. I really would love to hear about your trip to

Baltimore and etc. How are the girls liking school? I think about L. in

kindergarten and can just imagine her happy voice sharing her stories. What a

sweetheart. I really do love you Meikjn and always have and in spite of how

inadequate my efforts were that will never change. Please accept my apology

again for my failure to meet your needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

> > >

> > > this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it might be

convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes I was

never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please tell me you

see it too.

> > >

> > > Meikjn

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

For training to have any chance of working, the method you

choose for enforcing your boundaries has to be something that

they don't like as well as something that protects you. That's

why one method of training that sometimes works is

leaving/hanging up the phone. They can rage as much as they

want, but if you don't have to hear it, then it is their

problem, not yours. If the rage lasts so long that it affects

the next call or visit, you leave/hang up again as soon as the

misbehavior starts. This may involve a long period of instances

where contact is very short. If they want a relationship more

than they want to misbehave, then they may change if you do this

enough. Even if they don't, you're removing yourself from the

problem. Either way, you come out ahead in my opinion. For me,

the two options that seem possible are following this method of

boundary enforcement or having no contact. I will not subject

myself to lher craziness. Different things work for different

people though.

At 11:30 PM 9/21/2012 elmtree_speaks wrote:

>I agree with this in principle, but there are problems in

>practice. Every time I've tried this, it brings down a torrent

>of belittling and ridicule, if not a full rage. Two reasons:

>1) PDs have a hard time perceiving cause and effect to begin

>with, and 2) she's gotten away with it for years. Telling you

>to go to the bathroom is a pure sadistic boundary violation,

>which is one of the great joys of the nada life. She's not

>going to let you take that from her.

>

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

It does sound biased, but you have good reasons for that. Loved the mental

picture though!! I think it is important to remember that BPD people can

maintain a false exterior when they're not with family so your mom may be a

great bus driver. Besides, who ever liked their bus driver?? You have to

be tough to take that job!

jwjrenslow@...> jwjrenslow@...

_____

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of Jenn S.

Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 8:00 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Re: Nada " explains " things.

That's sad. Very!

I can see how that type of situation would benefit a bpd. My mom does

cleaning jobs and refuses to work when people are in the house. She can't

work with other adults. The bus job seems to suit her because she can yell

at kids and rack it up to safety I suppose? All I can picture when I think

of her driving a bus is the crazy bus driver from South Park with birds in

her hair. Perhaps I'm biased a bit?

On Sep 21, 2012, at 8:48 PM, " Renslow " jwjrenslow@...

> wrote:

> HA! I don't know about driving a bus. My nada is a terrible driver since

> her thoughts are never on the task at hand, but it amuses me now that my

> mother was an in-home day care provider for many years. She only took

> children under 5 - not school age kids. They were the only ones who

> couldn't tell their parents what she was doing. One time she tied a little

> boy to the chair with a dish rag because he wouldn't stay in his seat

during

> lunch. Odd thing is that everyone thought she was such a great day-care

> lady because she knew how to " act " like she cared about the kids so much

> when the parents came to get them. Looking back at it I understand why she

> did day care 1) it provided her money because working in an environment

with

> adults was not possible for her and 2) she could enjoy total domination

and

> control over (little) people. However a year after she quit day-care and

> was watching my son she complained about how much trouble it was to be

tied

> down to an infant. . . yeah right!

>

>

>

> jwjrenslow@... >

jwjrenslow@...

>

> _____

>

> From: WTOAdultChildren1

> [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1

] On Behalf Of Jenn S.

> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 7:27 PM

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Subject: Re: Re: Nada " explains " things.

>

> It also scares me because my nada is apparently a bus driver now where se

> lives. Who thought she is qualified to drive a giant vehicle with lots of

> sweet children is beside me. It scares me to think about it.

>

> " I think that such a person is way, way too mentally ill to be providing

> child care; its cruel to leave a child in the care of someone who

> chronically blames and punishes the child for things the child didn't do.

> Its an act of cruelty to leave a child in the care of someone who can

> literally drive the child insane. "

>

> On Sep 21, 2012, at 11:34 AM, " anuria67854 " anuria-67854@...

> > wrote:

>

> >

> > I think that such a person is way, way too mentally ill to be providing

> child care; its cruel to leave a child in the care of someone who

> chronically blames and punishes the child for things the child didn't do.

> Its an act of cruelty to leave a child in the care of someone who can

> literally drive the child insane.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Elm -

On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 12:02 AM, elmtree_speaks

elmtree_speaks@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> Thank you for this Annie. I posted another thread about having just spoken

> to the psychiatrist who saw me at age four, and was treating my parents. I

> knew he had to maintain their confidentiality, but I almost broke down and

> asked him why he didn't help me. He must have known that neither of them

> should have been taking care of children.

>

I wanted to add a couple comments on here because I've heard this

(completely understandable) comment before from someone else who had an

awful controlling mother who took them to a child psychologist at a very

young age because Mom believed there was " something wrong with the kid " and

wanted the psychologist to " fix " said kid to Mom's liking. There's

absolutely NOTHING a mental health care provider can do in this situation,

and from what I know, it's heartbreaking for the psych too -- not that

that's much consolation for the kids. It's hard enough to get kids away

from their folks when the parents are doing stuff like beating the kid

bloody with belts or denying life-saving medical care -- there's simply no

hope of getting a kid removed from the parents on the grounds of " these

folks aren't mentally well-balanced enough to raise an emotionally and

psychologically healthy kid. " For one thing, there's a large segment of

our society that seems to believe that families are so " sacred " that

society is under no circumstances allowed to intervene to protect the

helpless kids. For another, we don't actually have a good grasp on what

better options exist for those kids because our society doesn't prioritize

caring for and raising healthy, capable adults -- social workers and foster

families try very hard, but it's rarely enough. The resources aren't there

-- and neither is the basic research to let us know how to recreate a

healthy family for a child whose own is not good for her.

In Peck's book " People of the Lie " he gives striking examples of two

cases he encountered working as a psychiatrist where, as far as he could

tell, the parents in question were completely and utterly determined to

destroy their children's souls (by which I mean their mental and emotional

health and well-being.) One case was of a kid, , who wanted to work

with developmentally delayed kids and was very gifted at it,but his parents

had decided at some point that was " trouble " and they did everything

they could to sabotage him and MAKE him become a " troubled " kid when he

wasn't. Peck tried four or five times to make suggestions to the parents to

keep from getting into " trouble " and in each case the parents

promptly turned the suggestion on its head and did exactly the opposite.

They were bound and determined to have a " bad " kid, from what Peck could

see, and there wasn't one single thing Peck could do to stop it.

The other heartbreaking case was one where a teenage boy was brought into

to see Peck because his grades had taken a sharp drop and he was showing

signs of serious depression. Peck figured that this was fairly easy to

explain because the boy's older brother (16) had committed suicide by

shooting himself in the head only six months prior, so he settled in to try

and help the kid work through that nastiness and come up with ways to deal

with it. Turned out that the elder brother's suicide was the least of it.

The story goes like this: Peck tries to open rapport with the kid by

asking him what he got for Christmas a few weeks prior to the meeting. The

kid says, " I got a gun. " Peck's very alarmed by this, and asks why the kid

requested a gun for Christmas. The kid says, " I didn't. I asked for a

tennis racquet, but I got a gun instead. " Peck says, " From who?? " Kid

says, " From my folks. " Peck says, " So, only six months after losing their

elder son to a self-inflected gunshot wound to the head, they got you,

their younger son, a new gun? " Kid says, " It wasn't a new gun. " Peck

says, " What do you mean? " Kid says, " It was ...THE gun. The one my

brother killed himself with. They cleaned it up and gave it to me as a

Christmas present. "

Peck flat out can't believe this, so he goes to the parents and says, " Your

son believes you gave him the gun his brother killed himself with as a

Christmas present. " Dad goes, " Yeah, we did. So what? " Peck boggles for a

few minutes, then goes, " Uh, why did you do that? " Mom says, " Oh, teenage

boys love guns. He can go and hunt gophers in the back yard. So we figured

he would like it. " Dad adds, " But guns are expensive, so we gave him his

brother's. It still works. "

Peck walks away from that, thinking, " Dear God, how can I get this kid AWAY

from these people before he listens to their STRONG suggestion and kills

himself exactly the way his older brother did?? " He can't go to the

authorities and say, " You've got to take this kid away from these people,

they're deliberately trying to pressure him into killing himself, " because

if you put them on the stand they would swear up and down that they meant

the present in a nice way, and they didn't understand how the kid would see

it, and the kid is being properly fed and housed and yada yada yada yada.

But they clearly knew what they were doing. They wanted their kid dead, but

they didn't want to do it themselves. Peck tried to arrange things so that

the kid could go live with an aunt for at least a little while and be

around an adult who DIDN'T want him dead for a while, but he closed the

story in the book by saying he didn't know what happened to the kid because

he had been called in as an emergency consult and his number of approved

sessions with the kid were up. So he ended up always wondering if the boy

lived, and what happened to him, and what he could possibly have done to

intervene effectively in this horrible situation.

So, without minimizing the damage your Mom did, I wanted to put in a word

for your mental health worker. He clearly remembered you and cared about

you and worried about you -- but our society gives him NO OPTIONS to help

you. Not one.

There's a series of quite good crime mystery novels written by

Kellerman, the " Delaware " books. Fictional is a child

psychologist who helps a cop pal of his solve crimes, many of them

involving child victims (or child perpetrators occasionally). While

is fictional, Kellerman really was a child psych for many years before

turning to fiction writing, and you can just hear Kellerman's lasting

bitterness over his inability to help suffering kids due to society's

desire to " protect the family " (meaning, generally, the parents) from

" interference " with the parents' child raising principles, no matter how

poisonous or abusive or just plain mistaken they are.

Now, I will add that allowing outsiders to walk into a family and

unceremoniously yank kids out because they don't like the job the parents

are doing has its own large set of very real dangers and potential for

abuse. Also, let me say that giving government more oversight over parents

would also require significant financial investment, which would have to

come from taxpayers, so the cost is not negligible. But my heart breaks

when I think of how thoroughly we abandon most children to the whims of

their parents, who simply may not be fit to raise them. Even people who

WANT to help, generally can't do it without breaking laws meant to protect

the parents' rights. I did some volunteer work at a teenage runaway shelter

out in Oregon a few years back and the director told me that they weren't

legally allowed to let the kids stay overnight without notifying the

parents where they were. I said, " Wait, what if they ran away because their

Dad threatened to kill them and they were convinced he was serious? You're

just going to tell Dad where to FIND them? " and he said, " Legally, I HAVE

to. "

So. Uh. Yeah. Our society values the rights of the parents way, way more

than they value the rights of the kids, and that's just the way it is.

Now I've got to go do something to cheer myself up...

-- Jen H.

[Guest guest]

Lol! It is a tough job. If I had to choose an ideal job for her, it would be

last on my list. Although I will give her credit, she is a fabulous driver. It's

more about what's inside that scares me.

> It does sound biased, but you have good reasons for that. Loved the mental

> picture though!! I think it is important to remember that BPD people can

> maintain a false exterior when they're not with family so your mom may be a

> great bus driver. Besides, who ever liked their bus driver?? You have to

> be tough to take that job!

>

>

>

> jwjrenslow@...> jwjrenslow@...

>

> _____

>

> From: WTOAdultChildren1

> [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of Jenn S.

> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 8:00 PM

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Subject: Re: Re: Nada " explains " things.

>

> That's sad. Very!

>

> I can see how that type of situation would benefit a bpd. My mom does

> cleaning jobs and refuses to work when people are in the house. She can't

> work with other adults. The bus job seems to suit her because she can yell

> at kids and rack it up to safety I suppose? All I can picture when I think

> of her driving a bus is the crazy bus driver from South Park with birds in

> her hair. Perhaps I'm biased a bit?

>

> On Sep 21, 2012, at 8:48 PM, " Renslow " jwjrenslow@...

> > wrote:

>

> > HA! I don't know about driving a bus. My nada is a terrible driver since

> > her thoughts are never on the task at hand, but it amuses me now that my

> > mother was an in-home day care provider for many years. She only took

> > children under 5 - not school age kids. They were the only ones who

> > couldn't tell their parents what she was doing. One time she tied a little

> > boy to the chair with a dish rag because he wouldn't stay in his seat

> during

> > lunch. Odd thing is that everyone thought she was such a great day-care

> > lady because she knew how to " act " like she cared about the kids so much

> > when the parents came to get them. Looking back at it I understand why she

> > did day care 1) it provided her money because working in an environment

> with

> > adults was not possible for her and 2) she could enjoy total domination

> and

> > control over (little) people. However a year after she quit day-care and

> > was watching my son she complained about how much trouble it was to be

> tied

> > down to an infant. . . yeah right!

> >

> >

> >

> > jwjrenslow@... >

> jwjrenslow@...

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: WTOAdultChildren1

>

> > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1

> ] On Behalf Of Jenn S.

> > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 7:27 PM

> > To: WTOAdultChildren1

>

> > Subject: Re: Re: Nada " explains " things.

> >

> > It also scares me because my nada is apparently a bus driver now where se

> > lives. Who thought she is qualified to drive a giant vehicle with lots of

> > sweet children is beside me. It scares me to think about it.

> >

> > " I think that such a person is way, way too mentally ill to be providing

> > child care; its cruel to leave a child in the care of someone who

> > chronically blames and punishes the child for things the child didn't do.

> > Its an act of cruelty to leave a child in the care of someone who can

> > literally drive the child insane. "

> >

> > On Sep 21, 2012, at 11:34 AM, " anuria67854 " anuria-67854@...

>

> > > wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > I think that such a person is way, way too mentally ill to be providing

> > child care; its cruel to leave a child in the care of someone who

> > chronically blames and punishes the child for things the child didn't do.

> > Its an act of cruelty to leave a child in the care of someone who can

> > literally drive the child insane.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Like you say, setting boundaries is easy in theory and difficult in actual

practice, but sometimes No Contact (either temporary NC or permanent NC) its the

only option left open.

My nada never did accept that Sister and I even had the right to say " no " to

her! My nada had been the dominant one her whole life; her parents, her

siblings, her husband, and Sister and I had always walked on eggshells around

her, so she was used to being catered to and getting her own way.

It took both Sister and I teaming up and going No Contact with our nada to make

it clear to nada that we'd reached our topping off point, and nada could no

longer just say any atrocious, hateful, untrue thing she wanted to without any

consequences. The last few years of nada's life were spent in and out of

contact with Sister, as that was the only consequence that had any impact on

nada. And sometimes nada would initiate the No Contact. Sister came to regard

the No Contact periods as a brief vacation. I had decided that I was done,

though, and my No Contact (well, virtually NC) was permanent. I couldn't

emotionally separate/detach, so my only way to protect myself was real physical

No Contact.

Its not easy to change the way you relate to another person, particularly RE a

parent who has trained you from birth to be obedient to them or to feel

responsible for managing their feelings for them.

And yes, when we set boundaries with a domineering, abusive or manipulative

parent, often their abusive behaviors will escalate: the pd parent is trying to

re-establish her dominance with more frequent and more intense raging,

hysterics, etc.

As long as you keep in mind that you do NOT have to stay on the phone or stay

in the presence of someone who is having a rage-tantrum at you or a hysterical

crying fit at you, that you really can just leave or hang up, that can help

you establish your control over the situation.

Your parent may not be able to change herself; mine never did. But Sister and I

changed the way we responded to our nada's abusive behaviors.

-Annie

> > > > >

> > > > > this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks ago,

> > asking her to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was getting

> > too old (; this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my history

> > I have had a serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my sister

> > says it started when I was 3-ish)

> > > > > that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have at

> > least one huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> > > > > doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh, that's

> > right she was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily that I

> > was " over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail rather

> > Ironic. It would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on I will

> > quit reading her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in the

> > last one so I was hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands of

> > times, and I no longer trust her to ever get it right. I don't care how she

> > lives with herself, and I think I need to tell her so, I am just not sure I

> > want to even bother. she is fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of my

> > life. by her letter you would wonder if I really even had a medical

> > condition. I wish she would just drop it, I never asked to her to explain

> > her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave this part of my life alone.

> > in the here and now.

> > > > >

> > > > > without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

> > > > >

> > > > > Meikjn,

> > > > > I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help your

> > situation and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was something

> > going on but was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about ask a

> > REAL doctor) You did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing was. I

> > really did not realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of

> > symptoms and I didn't think to ask. As far as I knew you had an occasional

> > accident and for years and years I thought you just had what the first dr.

> > (urgent care guy) in ____said you might have, a " spastic bladder " which

> > acted up every once in a while. I thought I had just failed at potty

> > training and needed to help you establish as routine. You hid the scope of

> > it very well. You did your own laundry and once in a while I would find

> > bundled up piles of soiled underwear under the sink but that was all. I know

> > I should have done more and I will forever regret that. I did take you to

> > our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never really had a chance. we quit going

> > after just a few appointments, and lots of tests this was when I was 15. It

> > was the first and last time she tried to help me, and she only did it

> > because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad. remember this was after

> > at least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get any satisfaction from

> > him either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so sorry you are

> > suffering so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it different if

> > I could go back. I really would love to hear about your trip to Baltimore

> > and etc. How are the girls liking school? I think about L. in kindergarten

> > and can just imagine her happy voice sharing her stories. What a sweetheart.

> > I really do love you Meikjn and always have and in spite of how inadequate

> > my efforts were that will never change. Please accept my apology again for

> > my failure to meet your needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

> > > > >

> > > > > this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it might be

> > convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes I was

> > never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please tell me

> > you see it too.

> > > > >

> > > > > Meikjn

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

My question would still be for that psychiatrist, " Did you make the call? " They

are mandatory reporters, I believe, just as I am. You don't need to think

calling will do any good. You only need to have a reasonable suspicion and let

those trained in investigation do the investaging. Regardless of the failings

of the system, I would want to know if they did what there was to do.

Now, 30 or 40 years ago, the laws were entirely different, but it still seems

like the reasonable standard to me. If you had a suspicion, did you report it

so that someone could make an assessment of the situation? Did you do what

there was for you to do? Or could you not be bothered?

I would also want to know why the psychiatrist did not tell me the truth. If my

parents want me dead, I should be told that, because that is probably already my

suspicion, but I would feel a little crazy for thinking it. And I should be

told that others--including the psychiatrist--want me to live, and it is my job

as a human to resist the suggestion to die as much as possible until I am in a

position to get away from it completely.

Take care,

Ashana

[Guest guest]

Thank you Jenn. You're absolutely right (and it is awful that parents are

protected to the detriment of children).

I didn't necessarily mean he should have had me taken out of the house, which he

couldn't have I know. He told me that he was supposed to determine whether I

would benefit from psychotherapy or other interventions. He said he thought

that I was ok, and that if he had thought I would benefit from a place where I

could feel safe and secure he would have told my parents to put me in therapy.

" I thought you were ok, maybe I was wrong, " he said.

I just keep thinking that if I'd had someone to show me that my parents weren't

normal, my life would have gone much differently. And I know this isn't

realistic, but I keep thinking he should have sat nada down and scolded her

about appropriate parenting. (Yes, that's just a revenge fantasy.)

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > Thank you for this Annie. I posted another thread about having just spoken

> > to the psychiatrist who saw me at age four, and was treating my parents. I

> > knew he had to maintain their confidentiality, but I almost broke down and

> > asked him why he didn't help me. He must have known that neither of them

> > should have been taking care of children.

> >

>

> I wanted to add a couple comments on here because I've heard this

> (completely understandable) comment before from someone else who had an

> awful controlling mother who took them to a child psychologist at a very

> young age because Mom believed there was " something wrong with the kid " and

> wanted the psychologist to " fix " said kid to Mom's liking. There's

> absolutely NOTHING a mental health care provider can do in this situation,

> and from what I know, it's heartbreaking for the psych too -- not that

> that's much consolation for the kids. It's hard enough to get kids away

> from their folks when the parents are doing stuff like beating the kid

> bloody with belts or denying life-saving medical care -- there's simply no

> hope of getting a kid removed from the parents on the grounds of " these

> folks aren't mentally well-balanced enough to raise an emotionally and

> psychologically healthy kid. " For one thing, there's a large segment of

> our society that seems to believe that families are so " sacred " that

> society is under no circumstances allowed to intervene to protect the

> helpless kids. For another, we don't actually have a good grasp on what

> better options exist for those kids because our society doesn't prioritize

> caring for and raising healthy, capable adults -- social workers and foster

> families try very hard, but it's rarely enough. The resources aren't there

> -- and neither is the basic research to let us know how to recreate a

> healthy family for a child whose own is not good for her.

>

> In Peck's book " People of the Lie " he gives striking examples of two

> cases he encountered working as a psychiatrist where, as far as he could

> tell, the parents in question were completely and utterly determined to

> destroy their children's souls (by which I mean their mental and emotional

> health and well-being.) One case was of a kid, , who wanted to work

> with developmentally delayed kids and was very gifted at it,but his parents

> had decided at some point that was " trouble " and they did everything

> they could to sabotage him and MAKE him become a " troubled " kid when he

> wasn't. Peck tried four or five times to make suggestions to the parents to

> keep from getting into " trouble " and in each case the parents

> promptly turned the suggestion on its head and did exactly the opposite.

> They were bound and determined to have a " bad " kid, from what Peck could

> see, and there wasn't one single thing Peck could do to stop it.

>

> The other heartbreaking case was one where a teenage boy was brought into

> to see Peck because his grades had taken a sharp drop and he was showing

> signs of serious depression. Peck figured that this was fairly easy to

> explain because the boy's older brother (16) had committed suicide by

> shooting himself in the head only six months prior, so he settled in to try

> and help the kid work through that nastiness and come up with ways to deal

> with it. Turned out that the elder brother's suicide was the least of it.

> The story goes like this: Peck tries to open rapport with the kid by

> asking him what he got for Christmas a few weeks prior to the meeting. The

> kid says, " I got a gun. " Peck's very alarmed by this, and asks why the kid

> requested a gun for Christmas. The kid says, " I didn't. I asked for a

> tennis racquet, but I got a gun instead. " Peck says, " From who?? " Kid

> says, " From my folks. " Peck says, " So, only six months after losing their

> elder son to a self-inflected gunshot wound to the head, they got you,

> their younger son, a new gun? " Kid says, " It wasn't a new gun. " Peck

> says, " What do you mean? " Kid says, " It was ...THE gun. The one my

> brother killed himself with. They cleaned it up and gave it to me as a

> Christmas present. "

>

> Peck flat out can't believe this, so he goes to the parents and says, " Your

> son believes you gave him the gun his brother killed himself with as a

> Christmas present. " Dad goes, " Yeah, we did. So what? " Peck boggles for a

> few minutes, then goes, " Uh, why did you do that? " Mom says, " Oh, teenage

> boys love guns. He can go and hunt gophers in the back yard. So we figured

> he would like it. " Dad adds, " But guns are expensive, so we gave him his

> brother's. It still works. "

>

> Peck walks away from that, thinking, " Dear God, how can I get this kid AWAY

> from these people before he listens to their STRONG suggestion and kills

> himself exactly the way his older brother did?? " He can't go to the

> authorities and say, " You've got to take this kid away from these people,

> they're deliberately trying to pressure him into killing himself, " because

> if you put them on the stand they would swear up and down that they meant

> the present in a nice way, and they didn't understand how the kid would see

> it, and the kid is being properly fed and housed and yada yada yada yada.

> But they clearly knew what they were doing. They wanted their kid dead, but

> they didn't want to do it themselves. Peck tried to arrange things so that

> the kid could go live with an aunt for at least a little while and be

> around an adult who DIDN'T want him dead for a while, but he closed the

> story in the book by saying he didn't know what happened to the kid because

> he had been called in as an emergency consult and his number of approved

> sessions with the kid were up. So he ended up always wondering if the boy

> lived, and what happened to him, and what he could possibly have done to

> intervene effectively in this horrible situation.

>

> So, without minimizing the damage your Mom did, I wanted to put in a word

> for your mental health worker. He clearly remembered you and cared about

> you and worried about you -- but our society gives him NO OPTIONS to help

> you. Not one.

>

> There's a series of quite good crime mystery novels written by

> Kellerman, the " Delaware " books. Fictional is a child

> psychologist who helps a cop pal of his solve crimes, many of them

> involving child victims (or child perpetrators occasionally). While

> is fictional, Kellerman really was a child psych for many years before

> turning to fiction writing, and you can just hear Kellerman's lasting

> bitterness over his inability to help suffering kids due to society's

> desire to " protect the family " (meaning, generally, the parents) from

> " interference " with the parents' child raising principles, no matter how

> poisonous or abusive or just plain mistaken they are.

>

> Now, I will add that allowing outsiders to walk into a family and

> unceremoniously yank kids out because they don't like the job the parents

> are doing has its own large set of very real dangers and potential for

> abuse. Also, let me say that giving government more oversight over parents

> would also require significant financial investment, which would have to

> come from taxpayers, so the cost is not negligible. But my heart breaks

> when I think of how thoroughly we abandon most children to the whims of

> their parents, who simply may not be fit to raise them. Even people who

> WANT to help, generally can't do it without breaking laws meant to protect

> the parents' rights. I did some volunteer work at a teenage runaway shelter

> out in Oregon a few years back and the director told me that they weren't

> legally allowed to let the kids stay overnight without notifying the

> parents where they were. I said, " Wait, what if they ran away because their

> Dad threatened to kill them and they were convinced he was serious? You're

> just going to tell Dad where to FIND them? " and he said, " Legally, I HAVE

> to. "

>

> So. Uh. Yeah. Our society values the rights of the parents way, way more

> than they value the rights of the kids, and that's just the way it is.

>

> Now I've got to go do something to cheer myself up...

>

> -- Jen H.

>

>

>