Nada explains things.

[Guest guest]

Oh, I definitely don't think tolerating abuse is a better choice than attempting

to set boundaries. Several therapists told me that when the crazy started, I

should just set firm boundaries. So when I failed to get my boundaries

respected, I felt like a failure.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks ago,

> > > asking her to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was

getting

> > > too old (; this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my

history

> > > I have had a serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my

sister

> > > says it started when I was 3-ish)

> > > > > > that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have at

> > > least one huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> > > > > > doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh, that's

> > > right she was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily that I

> > > was " over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail rather

> > > Ironic. It would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on I

will

> > > quit reading her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in the

> > > last one so I was hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands of

> > > times, and I no longer trust her to ever get it right. I don't care how

she

> > > lives with herself, and I think I need to tell her so, I am just not sure

I

> > > want to even bother. she is fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of my

> > > life. by her letter you would wonder if I really even had a medical

> > > condition. I wish she would just drop it, I never asked to her to explain

> > > her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave this part of my life alone.

> > > in the here and now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Meikjn,

> > > > > > I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help your

> > > situation and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was

something

> > > going on but was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about ask

a

> > > REAL doctor) You did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing was.

I

> > > really did not realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of

> > > symptoms and I didn't think to ask. As far as I knew you had an occasional

> > > accident and for years and years I thought you just had what the first dr.

> > > (urgent care guy) in ____said you might have, a " spastic bladder " which

> > > acted up every once in a while. I thought I had just failed at potty

> > > training and needed to help you establish as routine. You hid the scope of

> > > it very well. You did your own laundry and once in a while I would find

> > > bundled up piles of soiled underwear under the sink but that was all. I

know

> > > I should have done more and I will forever regret that. I did take you to

> > > our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never really had a chance. we quit going

> > > after just a few appointments, and lots of tests this was when I was 15.

It

> > > was the first and last time she tried to help me, and she only did it

> > > because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad. remember this was

after

> > > at least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get any satisfaction

from

> > > him either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so sorry you are

> > > suffering so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it different

if

> > > I could go back. I really would love to hear about your trip to Baltimore

> > > and etc. How are the girls liking school? I think about L. in kindergarten

> > > and can just imagine her happy voice sharing her stories. What a

sweetheart.

> > > I really do love you Meikjn and always have and in spite of how inadequate

> > > my efforts were that will never change. Please accept my apology again for

> > > my failure to meet your needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

> > > > > >

> > > > > > this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it might be

> > > convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes I

was

> > > never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please tell

me

> > > you see it too.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Meikjn

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

That sounds like the therapists in question failed to give an

adequate explanation of boundaries. Nadas don't respect

boundaries. You can't control that. The fact that you couldn't

get them respected wasn't your fault so you weren't a failure.

The real point of boundaries is that they are for YOU not for

other people. They're there to allow you to give yourself

permission to fight back in whatever way makes sense considering

what the boundary is about. You can't control any one else's

behavior but you can control your own and deciding how you are

going to react is just as much a part of setting a boudary as

deciding where to draw your line in the sand. Too often people

are told to set boundaries but that second part is never

explained to them so the boundaries never do anything useful.

At 09:29 PM 9/22/2012 elmtree_speaks wrote:

>Oh, I definitely don't think tolerating abuse is a better

>choice than attempting to set boundaries. Several therapists

>told me that when the crazy started, I should just set firm

>boundaries. So when I failed to get my boundaries respected, I

>felt like a failure.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Your nada's inappropriate, abnormal, disrespectful behaviors truly have nothing

to do with your inherent worthiness to be respected. If your nada does not

respect you or your boundaries its not your failure, its HER failure.

Its not your job or your responsibility to manage your nada's feelings or

behaviors for her. All you have to do is decide what behaviors of hers you

personally will or will not tolerate, and act on your decisions when your nada

crosses a boundary you established.

The boundary is for YOU: its not about changing your nada, its about deciding

what YOU will do when you nada acts out inappropriately toward you.

It took me until my 40's, but I finally figured out that if I was visiting my

nada and she started ramping up into a rage-tantrum at me, if she began her

needling insults and criticisms in an effort to pick a fight with me, that I

could just cut the visit short, leave her house, and go stay somewhere else.

It finally registered with me that I was not obligated to remain in nada's

presence or even in her home if she was spoiling for a (verbal) fight with me.

It still amazes me that even into my 40's I remained so brainwashed, so

indoctrinated to just stand there silently and take my mother's verbal/emotional

abuse and sometimes even her physical abuse. It took me such a long time to

realize that I could just walk away. If I had tried to do that as a child, it

would have gotten me a worse beating. I was too physically afraid of my nada to

try and escape from her when I was a kid. The patterns of behavior we learn in

childhood as survival mechanisms are hard to un-learn, but they CAN be

un-learned.

Please keep reminding yourself that your mother's behaviors have nothing to do

with you. You did not cause her to be the was she is. You can't change her,

and you can't cure her. You are not a failure. Your nada is mentally ill and

unwilling to respect anyone, really. Her failure to show you common human

respect is not your fault. But YOU CAN show yourself some respect, by

determining to be self-protective when your nada acts out at you in

inappropriate, unacceptable ways.

-Annie

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks ago,

> > > > asking her to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was

getting

> > > > too old (; this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my

history

> > > > I have had a serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my

sister

> > > > says it started when I was 3-ish)

> > > > > > > that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have at

> > > > least one huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> > > > > > > doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh, that's

> > > > right she was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily that

I

> > > > was " over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail

rather

> > > > Ironic. It would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on I

will

> > > > quit reading her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in the

> > > > last one so I was hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands of

> > > > times, and I no longer trust her to ever get it right. I don't care how

she

> > > > lives with herself, and I think I need to tell her so, I am just not

sure I

> > > > want to even bother. she is fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of my

> > > > life. by her letter you would wonder if I really even had a medical

> > > > condition. I wish she would just drop it, I never asked to her to

explain

> > > > her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave this part of my life

alone.

> > > > in the here and now.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Meikjn,

> > > > > > > I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help

your

> > > > situation and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was

something

> > > > going on but was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about

ask a

> > > > REAL doctor) You did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing

was. I

> > > > really did not realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of

> > > > symptoms and I didn't think to ask. As far as I knew you had an

occasional

> > > > accident and for years and years I thought you just had what the first

dr.

> > > > (urgent care guy) in ____said you might have, a " spastic bladder " which

> > > > acted up every once in a while. I thought I had just failed at potty

> > > > training and needed to help you establish as routine. You hid the scope

of

> > > > it very well. You did your own laundry and once in a while I would find

> > > > bundled up piles of soiled underwear under the sink but that was all. I

know

> > > > I should have done more and I will forever regret that. I did take you

to

> > > > our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never really had a chance. we quit going

> > > > after just a few appointments, and lots of tests this was when I was 15.

It

> > > > was the first and last time she tried to help me, and she only did it

> > > > because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad. remember this was

after

> > > > at least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get any satisfaction

from

> > > > him either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so sorry you are

> > > > suffering so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it different

if

> > > > I could go back. I really would love to hear about your trip to

Baltimore

> > > > and etc. How are the girls liking school? I think about L. in

kindergarten

> > > > and can just imagine her happy voice sharing her stories. What a

sweetheart.

> > > > I really do love you Meikjn and always have and in spite of how

inadequate

> > > > my efforts were that will never change. Please accept my apology again

for

> > > > my failure to meet your needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it might

be

> > > > convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes I

was

> > > > never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please tell

me

> > > > you see it too.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Meikjn

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Absolutely,

Nada is the one who failed, not you, Elmtree.

Sometimes, the only boundary is NC.

I'm just not in that place right now. 

But I did have 2 years of NC.  It was wonderful.

-

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:38 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Nada " explains " things.

 

That sounds like the therapists in question failed to give an

adequate explanation of boundaries. Nadas don't respect

boundaries. You can't control that. The fact that you couldn't

get them respected wasn't your fault so you weren't a failure.

The real point of boundaries is that they are for YOU not for

other people. They're there to allow you to give yourself

permission to fight back in whatever way makes sense considering

what the boundary is about. You can't control any one else's

behavior but you can control your own and deciding how you are

going to react is just as much a part of setting a boudary as

deciding where to draw your line in the sand. Too often people

are told to set boundaries but that second part is never

explained to them so the boundaries never do anything useful.

At 09:29 PM 9/22/2012 elmtree_speaks wrote:

>Oh, I definitely don't think tolerating abuse is a better

>choice than attempting to set boundaries. Several therapists

>told me that when the crazy started, I should just set firm

>boundaries. So when I failed to get my boundaries respected, I

>felt like a failure.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

You're all right, Katrina, , and Annie. She (and fada) will never respect

any boundary I set, and I'm mostly NC with nada now. In my early 20's I

remember complaining to my therapist about them picking on me, and she said, why

don't you just tell them to knock it off? I said, because it makes them

angrier. Why don't you leave? They chase me. Literally. And then they go on

for months about how I'm so disruptive, trying to walk out of the house during

dinner etc.

The therapist made me feel like if I just said hey clowns, cut it out, they

would stop. Which we all know is not how it works. My original comment may

have been out of line in the context of the discussion here, which I know is

more about refusing to submit to abuse. It just reminded me of arguing that

point to my therapist, namely that there was nothing I could do to get them to

behave.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks

ago,

> > > > > asking her to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was

getting

> > > > > too old (; this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my

history

> > > > > I have had a serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my

sister

> > > > > says it started when I was 3-ish)

> > > > > > > > that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have

at

> > > > > least one huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> > > > > > > > doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh,

that's

> > > > > right she was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily

that I

> > > > > was " over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail

rather

> > > > > Ironic. It would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on

I will

> > > > > quit reading her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in

the

> > > > > last one so I was hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands

of

> > > > > times, and I no longer trust her to ever get it right. I don't care

how she

> > > > > lives with herself, and I think I need to tell her so, I am just not

sure I

> > > > > want to even bother. she is fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of

my

> > > > > life. by her letter you would wonder if I really even had a medical

> > > > > condition. I wish she would just drop it, I never asked to her to

explain

> > > > > her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave this part of my life

alone.

> > > > > in the here and now.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Meikjn,

> > > > > > > > I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help

your

> > > > > situation and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was

something

> > > > > going on but was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about

ask a

> > > > > REAL doctor) You did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing

was. I

> > > > > really did not realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of

> > > > > symptoms and I didn't think to ask. As far as I knew you had an

occasional

> > > > > accident and for years and years I thought you just had what the first

dr.

> > > > > (urgent care guy) in ____said you might have, a " spastic bladder "

which

> > > > > acted up every once in a while. I thought I had just failed at potty

> > > > > training and needed to help you establish as routine. You hid the

scope of

> > > > > it very well. You did your own laundry and once in a while I would

find

> > > > > bundled up piles of soiled underwear under the sink but that was all.

I know

> > > > > I should have done more and I will forever regret that. I did take you

to

> > > > > our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never really had a chance. we quit

going

> > > > > after just a few appointments, and lots of tests this was when I was

15. It

> > > > > was the first and last time she tried to help me, and she only did it

> > > > > because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad. remember this was

after

> > > > > at least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get any

satisfaction from

> > > > > him either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so sorry you

are

> > > > > suffering so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it

different if

> > > > > I could go back. I really would love to hear about your trip to

Baltimore

> > > > > and etc. How are the girls liking school? I think about L. in

kindergarten

> > > > > and can just imagine her happy voice sharing her stories. What a

sweetheart.

> > > > > I really do love you Meikjn and always have and in spite of how

inadequate

> > > > > my efforts were that will never change. Please accept my apology again

for

> > > > > my failure to meet your needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it

might be

> > > > > convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes

I was

> > > > > never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please

tell me

> > > > > you see it too.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Meikjn

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Elmtree,

I don't think that your therapist knew much about BPD.  Your FOO sounds like

mine.....you can't talk or tell them to knock it off b/c they get angrier....And

then they chase...And it's always our fault b/c we are so disruptive (to their

insanity).  Yes, it always happened at the dinner table!  Run Run

Run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2012 10:05 PM

Subject: Re: Nada " explains " things.

 

You're all right, Katrina, , and Annie. She (and fada) will never respect

any boundary I set, and I'm mostly NC with nada now. In my early 20's I

remember complaining to my therapist about them picking on me, and she said, why

don't you just tell them to knock it off? I said, because it makes them

angrier. Why don't you leave? They chase me. Literally. And then they go on

for months about how I'm so disruptive, trying to walk out of the house during

dinner etc.

The therapist made me feel like if I just said hey clowns, cut it out, they

would stop. Which we all know is not how it works. My original comment may

have been out of line in the context of the discussion here, which I know is

more about refusing to submit to abuse. It just reminded me of arguing that

point to my therapist, namely that there was nothing I could do to get them to

behave.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks

ago,

> > > > > asking her to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was

getting

> > > > > too old (; this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my

history

> > > > > I have had a serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my

sister

> > > > > says it started when I was 3-ish)

> > > > > > > > that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have

at

> > > > > least one huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> > > > > > > > doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh,

that's

> > > > > right she was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily

that I

> > > > > was " over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail

rather

> > > > > Ironic. It would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now on

I will

> > > > > quit reading her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in

the

> > > > > last one so I was hopeful. she had her chance on this issue thousands

of

> > > > > times, and I no longer trust her to ever get it right. I don't care

how she

> > > > > lives with herself, and I think I need to tell her so, I am just not

sure I

> > > > > want to even bother. she is fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part of

my

> > > > > life. by her letter you would wonder if I really even had a medical

> > > > > condition. I wish she would just drop it, I never asked to her to

explain

> > > > > her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave this part of my life

alone.

> > > > > in the here and now.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Meikjn,

> > > > > > > > I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help

your

> > > > > situation and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was

something

> > > > > going on but was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how about

ask a

> > > > > REAL doctor) You did a good job of hiding how serious the whole thing

was. I

> > > > > really did not realize how huge your problem was. You never told me of

> > > > > symptoms and I didn't think to ask. As far as I knew you had an

occasional

> > > > > accident and for years and years I thought you just had what the first

dr.

> > > > > (urgent care guy) in ____said you might have, a " spastic bladder "

which

> > > > > acted up every once in a while. I thought I had just failed at potty

> > > > > training and needed to help you establish as routine. You hid the

scope of

> > > > > it very well. You did your own laundry and once in a while I would

find

> > > > > bundled up piles of soiled underwear under the sink but that was all.

I know

> > > > > I should have done more and I will forever regret that. I did take you

to

> > > > > our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never really had a chance. we quit

going

> > > > > after just a few appointments, and lots of tests this was when I was

15. It

> > > > > was the first and last time she tried to help me, and she only did it

> > > > > because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad. remember this was

after

> > > > > at least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get any

satisfaction from

> > > > > him either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so sorry you

are

> > > > > suffering so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it

different if

> > > > > I could go back. I really would love to hear about your trip to

Baltimore

> > > > > and etc. How are the girls liking school? I think about L. in

kindergarten

> > > > > and can just imagine her happy voice sharing her stories. What a

sweetheart.

> > > > > I really do love you Meikjn and always have and in spite of how

inadequate

> > > > > my efforts were that will never change. Please accept my apology again

for

> > > > > my failure to meet your needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it

might be

> > > > > convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still believes

I was

> > > > > never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please

tell me

> > > > > you see it too.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Meikjn

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

I'm sure you're right . BPD is such a horror show for clinicians that a

lot of them explicitly refuse to treat them, and what they're familiar with is

the lower-functioning end of the spectrum (i.e. the BPDs who land in the

hospital once a month with their wrists slit). No therapist ever directly

suggested that my nada was abnormal and abusive, although to be fair I wasn't

trying to hear that.

Interestingly, that same therapist (psychiatrist actually) said a couple of

times that nada wanted me to be her narcissistic mirror. At the time I didn't

know exactly what that term meant, and I wish I had. She was telling me I was a

parentified child.

Evidently I am going through a " what if " stage right now.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > this is a delayed response to an e-mail I set a couple weeks

ago,

> > > > > > asking her to stop telling me to go to the bathroom. I decided I was

getting

> > > > > > too old (; this lady is nuts. for those of you who have not read my

history

> > > > > > I have had a serious medical condition as long as I can remember (my

sister

> > > > > > says it started when I was 3-ish)

> > > > > > > > > that among other things makes me pee my pants. (I used to have

at

> > > > > > least one huge accident a week) I am receiving treatment now, and

> > > > > > > > > doing much better. Nada was abusive about the symptoms (oh,

that's

> > > > > > right she was " helping me establish a routine " ), and told me daily

that I

> > > > > > was " over-reacting " to everything, etc, facts that make her e-mail

rather

> > > > > > Ironic. It would be hilarious if it did not hurt so much. from now

on I will

> > > > > > quit reading her e-mails without DH approval. she was pretty nice in

the

> > > > > > last one so I was hopeful. she had her chance on this issue

thousands of

> > > > > > times, and I no longer trust her to ever get it right. I don't care

how she

> > > > > > lives with herself, and I think I need to tell her so, I am just not

sure I

> > > > > > want to even bother. she is fantastic at minimizing this HUGE part

of my

> > > > > > life. by her letter you would wonder if I really even had a medical

> > > > > > condition. I wish she would just drop it, I never asked to her to

explain

> > > > > > her logic and " facts " I just want her to leave this part of my life

alone.

> > > > > > in the here and now.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > without further ado here is her latest FOG-y manipulation.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Meikjn,

> > > > > > > > > I have been thinking about what I could have done more to help

your

> > > > > > situation and feel so bad that I did not do more. I knew there was

something

> > > > > > going on but was really at a loss to know what to do. (Uhh.. how

about ask a

> > > > > > REAL doctor) You did a good job of hiding how serious the whole

thing was. I

> > > > > > really did not realize how huge your problem was. You never told me

of

> > > > > > symptoms and I didn't think to ask. As far as I knew you had an

occasional

> > > > > > accident and for years and years I thought you just had what the

first dr.

> > > > > > (urgent care guy) in ____said you might have, a " spastic bladder "

which

> > > > > > acted up every once in a while. I thought I had just failed at potty

> > > > > > training and needed to help you establish as routine. You hid the

scope of

> > > > > > it very well. You did your own laundry and once in a while I would

find

> > > > > > bundled up piles of soiled underwear under the sink but that was

all. I know

> > > > > > I should have done more and I will forever regret that. I did take

you to

> > > > > > our local " expert " Dr.____ (he never really had a chance. we quit

going

> > > > > > after just a few appointments, and lots of tests this was when I was

15. It

> > > > > > was the first and last time she tried to help me, and she only did

it

> > > > > > because an uncle who was a doctor made her look bad. remember this

was after

> > > > > > at least 12 years of the disorder.) but we did not get any

satisfaction from

> > > > > > him either. I simply did not know what else to do. I am so sorry you

are

> > > > > > suffering so much for my oversight and inaction. I would do it

different if

> > > > > > I could go back. I really would love to hear about your trip to

Baltimore

> > > > > > and etc. How are the girls liking school? I think about L. in

kindergarten

> > > > > > and can just imagine her happy voice sharing her stories. What a

sweetheart.

> > > > > > I really do love you Meikjn and always have and in spite of how

inadequate

> > > > > > my efforts were that will never change. Please accept my apology

again for

> > > > > > my failure to meet your needs.(cue the tears!!) Love Mom

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > this almost apology is the best I will ever get I think. it

might be

> > > > > > convincing if it were not so accusatory. apparently she still

believes I was

> > > > > > never potty trained. she has been saying that my whole life. please

tell me

> > > > > > you see it too.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Meikjn

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Elm --

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 1:05 AM, elmtree_speaks elmtree_speaks@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> You're all right, Katrina, , and Annie. She (and fada) will never

> respect any boundary I set, and I'm mostly NC with nada now. In my early

> 20's I remember complaining to my therapist about them picking on me, and

> she said, why don't you just tell them to knock it off? I said, because it

> makes them angrier. Why don't you leave? They chase me. Literally. And then

> they go on for months about how I'm so disruptive, trying to walk out of

> the house during dinner etc.

>

> The therapist made me feel like if I just said hey clowns, cut it out,

> they would stop. Which we all know is not how it works. My original comment

> may have been out of line in the context of the discussion here, which I

> know is more about refusing to submit to abuse. It just reminded me of

> arguing that point to my therapist, namely that there was nothing I could

> do to get them to behave.

>

Yeah, I've had a hard time convincing some of my therapists that my Nada

is, in fact, crazy enough to chase me into the street screaming at me (and

has been known to grab my car door as I was closing it to go, to make me

choose between slamming her fingers in the door, or standing there and

taking her abuse. I didn't slam, but sometimes I think I should have...)

They are NOT normal people, who have more dignity than to behave like that.

When I was a kid and tried to run away from Nada on foot,she would get in

her car and chase me down the street while screaming at me until I went

cross-country so she couldn't. " Just walk away " doesn't work when the

person is over the edge and determined to control you by any means, fair or

foul.

I was ironically amused (and a bit horrified) to read a book on anger

management by Ron Potter-Efron and encounter this creation, the

Anger/Violence ladder (you might also call it the abuse ladder.) It's the

typical progression of bad behavior from a person with anger issues. Notice

where " chasing and holding " appears? Until I saw this I never realized that

chasing is, in and of itself, a violent action -- and it's perilously close

to top of the ladder, which is an all-out physical attack.

The Anger/Violence ladder (Ron Potter-Efron)

1. Sneaky Anger

2. The Cold Shoulder

3. Blaming and Shaming

4. Swearing, Screaming, and Yelling

5. Demands and Threats

6. Chasing and Holding

7. Partly Controlled Violence

8. Blind Rage

One freedom that our nadas/fadas desperately don't want to give us is the

freedom to just say " Enough, I'm leaving, " and enforce it. It terrifies and

enrages them (fear of abandonment, remember?) and strips them of any hope

of control, as you can't really control a person who's not there. This is

why is can be so critical to our health to get some distance and the

ability to enforce separation by hanging up the phone, not responding to

the emails, and so on. And why you should do everything you can manage NOT

to wind up living under the same roof as a nada/fada -- nowhere to run to.

(Impossible for a minor child, though, of course. More's the pity.)

-- Jen H.

[Guest guest]

Jen,

I think there's a 3rd option for dealing with things like holding your car door:

call the cops. It has to be illegal.

I appreciate what you said earlier about a therapist who didn't get it that

setting boundaries didn't make your parents behave. I had a therapist like that

once as well. I just felt guilty and then hopeless, because I didn't know what

the alternative might be and it felt like I was going to be stuck with abuse for

the rest of my life.

Take care,

Ashana

[Guest guest]

Wow, that is VITALLY IMPORTANT information about the " Ladder of Violence/

Anger/Abuse " ! Its truly enlightening and necessary information for those who

are in terrifying, abusive relationships, whether its a chosen relationship or a

non-chosen relationship. Thanks for sharing that book rec with us.

I believe that on a couple of occasions, my nada went all the way up to BLIND

RAGE and would have actually killed me if she'd been able to get her hands on

me, or at least have seriously injured me. I think that those who escalate into

blind rage are truly psychotic, they're having a break with reality and could

actually kill without even realizing it.

On one memorable occasion when I was in my teens, I had to make a dash for my

bedroom, quickly shove the bed against the door, then wedge myself between the

bed and the wall to hold the door shut. My nada was in a maniacal screaming

rage and attempting to batter the door down. It seemed to go on for hours (I'm

sure it didn't really, it just seemed to) and I've blanked out what happened

immediately before and afterward. I think I left the house after nada and dad

had gone to bed, and walked over to a friend's house. That was one of the very

few times that my enabler dad tried to intervene and calm things down.

Also, my nada used to do a kind of " chasing " thing, where she'd yell and scream

at me, perhaps smack me around, then I would think she'd be done, but then a few

minutes later she'd stomp heavily back toward me for another round. It would go

on and on, round after round of her shrieking at me and/or hitting me,

stopping, going away, then coming back again for more.

Someone who has emotional dysregulation, little or no ability to control their

anger, and is easily triggered into inappropriate, extreme anger has NO BUSINESS

raising a child, in my opinion.

Subjecting a child to rage is emotional torture. It can do A LOT of really

severe emotional damage to a child to be the focus and target of rage and

violence, particularly by the child's own parent/primary caregiver. I can't

think of a more appropriate term than " torture. " Being abused by your own

mother or father who supposedly loves you and on whom you are abjectly dependent

is QUALITATIVELY different than abuse from a stranger or acquaintance. Abuse by

a parent is primal or core betrayal.

-Annie

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > You're all right, Katrina, , and Annie. She (and fada) will never

> > respect any boundary I set, and I'm mostly NC with nada now. In my early

> > 20's I remember complaining to my therapist about them picking on me, and

> > she said, why don't you just tell them to knock it off? I said, because it

> > makes them angrier. Why don't you leave? They chase me. Literally. And then

> > they go on for months about how I'm so disruptive, trying to walk out of

> > the house during dinner etc.

> >

> > The therapist made me feel like if I just said hey clowns, cut it out,

> > they would stop. Which we all know is not how it works. My original comment

> > may have been out of line in the context of the discussion here, which I

> > know is more about refusing to submit to abuse. It just reminded me of

> > arguing that point to my therapist, namely that there was nothing I could

> > do to get them to behave.

> >

>

> Yeah, I've had a hard time convincing some of my therapists that my Nada

> is, in fact, crazy enough to chase me into the street screaming at me (and

> has been known to grab my car door as I was closing it to go, to make me

> choose between slamming her fingers in the door, or standing there and

> taking her abuse. I didn't slam, but sometimes I think I should have...)

> They are NOT normal people, who have more dignity than to behave like that.

> When I was a kid and tried to run away from Nada on foot,she would get in

> her car and chase me down the street while screaming at me until I went

> cross-country so she couldn't. " Just walk away " doesn't work when the

> person is over the edge and determined to control you by any means, fair or

> foul.

>

> I was ironically amused (and a bit horrified) to read a book on anger

> management by Ron Potter-Efron and encounter this creation, the

> Anger/Violence ladder (you might also call it the abuse ladder.) It's the

> typical progression of bad behavior from a person with anger issues. Notice

> where " chasing and holding " appears? Until I saw this I never realized that

> chasing is, in and of itself, a violent action -- and it's perilously close

> to top of the ladder, which is an all-out physical attack.

>

> The Anger/Violence ladder (Ron Potter-Efron)

>

> 1. Sneaky Anger

> 2. The Cold Shoulder

> 3. Blaming and Shaming

> 4. Swearing, Screaming, and Yelling

> 5. Demands and Threats

> 6. Chasing and Holding

> 7. Partly Controlled Violence

> 8. Blind Rage

>

>

> One freedom that our nadas/fadas desperately don't want to give us is the

> freedom to just say " Enough, I'm leaving, " and enforce it. It terrifies and

> enrages them (fear of abandonment, remember?) and strips them of any hope

> of control, as you can't really control a person who's not there. This is

> why is can be so critical to our health to get some distance and the

> ability to enforce separation by hanging up the phone, not responding to

> the emails, and so on. And why you should do everything you can manage NOT

> to wind up living under the same roof as a nada/fada -- nowhere to run to.

> (Impossible for a minor child, though, of course. More's the pity.)

>

> -- Jen H.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 3:36 PM, anuria67854 anuria-67854@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> Wow, that is VITALLY IMPORTANT information about the " Ladder of Violence/

> Anger/Abuse " ! Its truly enlightening and necessary information for those

> who are in terrifying, abusive relationships, whether its a chosen

> relationship or a non-chosen relationship. Thanks for sharing that book rec

> with us.

>

The book was kind of interesting in identifying my own " anger style "

(chronic/righteous) and I loved the ladder as it was so clear, but the

focus of the book is on trying to help the rager learn to take charge and

get a grip, so I don't know how much help it would be to most of us (who

are not, I think, ragers ourselves). If we could get our Nadas/Fadas to

read it, that might be helpful, but, well....not much chance!

> On one memorable occasion when I was in my teens, I had to make a dash for

> my bedroom, quickly shove the bed against the door, then wedge myself

> between the bed and the wall to hold the door shut. My nada was in a

> maniacal screaming rage and attempting to batter the door down. It seemed

> to go on for hours (I'm sure it didn't really, it just seemed to) and I've

> blanked out what happened immediately before and afterward. I think I left

> the house after nada and dad had gone to bed, and walked over to a friend's

> house. That was one of the very few times that my enabler dad tried to

> intervene and calm things down.

>

Oh, yeah, that brings back memories. When I was fifteen or sixteen or so,

my Dad was running his software business out of an apartment in a building

near my school. I went there after school one time and Nada was there. We

started arguing about God-knows-what, and she escalated into blind rage

really quickly and started hitting. So I ran into the back room and slammed

the door and threw my weight on it to keep her out. She kept slamming and

slamming on the door, but couldn't get in to get at me. (Of course I

couldn't get OUT either...) Anyway, after raging and screaming and pounding

for a while, she stopped and said, " You have to let me in! " I said, " No

way! You're going to hit me! " She goes, " No, I won't. I need to get my

shoes so I can go to my appointment. Let me in to get my shoes. " I said,

" You promise not to start hitting me? " She said, " I just need the shoes. I

promise. " So, I opened the door. She immediately swung around and started

hitting me again. She had no interest in the shoes at all as far as I could

tell -- she was just willing to use whatever tactic was necessary to reach

me and continue hurting me. Pretty terrifying. Dad wasn't there,

unfortunately -- I think he would have stopped her, or his presence would

have made her keep herself in check as she didn't like to show her worst

behavior in front of him.

I think that was the last time I ever remember trusting my Nada. Foo me

once, shame on you -- fool me TWICE, shame on me.

It's one of those things I desperately wish I'd been able to get on video,

partly to show other people ( " See? This is what I lived with, no sh!t! " )

and partly so I could show HER, since I think she was so blind with rage

she literally had no clue what she was doing. Just completely GONE,

mentally.

-- Jen H.