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That was very insightful. Thank you!

jwjrenslow@...> jwjrenslow@...

_____

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of peacefulwarriorwoman

Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 2:00 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: I can't NOT love myself.

Hello Friends,

I'm sure most of us struggle to love ourselves, as children of BPD/Narc

parents. For years I've worked on this through therapy, religion,

anti-depressants, exercise, prayer/daily affirmations and etc. All have

helped, but not solved the problem.

I often get hit with feelings of dread/depression about who I am. Usually

because I'm not taking care of a need for myself (because I'm either too

busy focusing on others' needs or finances are holding me back as I'm

starting a business).

Of course we're going to have moments of disappointment or needs suddenly

hit us that we can't fulfill at that time, but how I've reacted needs to

change. Especially as a highly sensitive person.

First I usually try to deny I'm even feeling bad. But when my mind denies my

pain, it comes out by my sudden drive to binge eat and watch TV. Once the

temporary numbing wears off, I feel like crap and will wonder " When will I

ever love myself! " This only inflames my dread/depression.

As I was journaling yesterday, a life-changing thought hit me:

The opposite of love is not hate...it's apathy. So when I have my " I hate

myself " moments, those feelings of dread/depression is actually an

indication of how MUCH I love myself! Because it's my subconscious saying,

" Hey I love myself! Please take care of me. "

So ultimately my very nature IS love. I can't NOT love myself. Sure I may

have moments of apathy, but that's not the same. I don't need to learn to

love myself, I already and fully do!

There's an incredible security in that for me. To know that whoever comes

and goes in my life, whatever rejection/abandonment I experience, I can

never NOT be loved.

At the moment I'm not sure how this is going to help me overcome my

depression and eating disorder, but I'm excited to let you know.

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It really speaks to me too :-)

Thank you for sharing <3

Have a Beautiful Week

XXXX

________________________________

De : peacefulwarriorwoman april.lynn.vermillion@...>

À : WTOAdultChildren1

Envoyé le : Dimanche 23 septembre 2012 22h00

Objet : I can't NOT love myself.

 

Hello Friends,

I'm sure most of us struggle to love ourselves, as children of BPD/Narc parents.

For years I've worked on this through therapy, religion, anti-depressants,

exercise, prayer/daily affirmations and etc. All have helped, but not solved

the problem.

I often get hit with feelings of dread/depression about who I am. Usually

because I'm not taking care of a need for myself (because I'm either too busy

focusing on others' needs or finances are holding me back as I'm starting a

business).

Of course we're going to have moments of disappointment or needs suddenly hit us

that we can't fulfill at that time, but how I've reacted needs to change.

Especially as a highly sensitive person.

First I usually try to deny I'm even feeling bad. But when my mind denies my

pain, it comes out by my sudden drive to binge eat and watch TV. Once the

temporary numbing wears off, I feel like crap and will wonder " When will I ever

love myself! " This only inflames my dread/depression.

As I was journaling yesterday, a life-changing thought hit me:

The opposite of love is not hate...it's apathy. So when I have my " I hate

myself " moments, those feelings of dread/depression is actually an indication of

how MUCH I love myself! Because it's my subconscious saying, " Hey I love myself!

Please take care of me. "

So ultimately my very nature IS love. I can't NOT love myself. Sure I may have

moments of apathy, but that's not the same. I don't need to learn to love

myself, I already and fully do!

There's an incredible security in that for me. To know that whoever comes and

goes in my life, whatever rejection/abandonment I experience, I can never NOT be

loved.

At the moment I'm not sure how this is going to help me overcome my depression

and eating disorder, but I'm excited to let you know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow! That was AWESOME! Really helpful for me. I have the same issue, and am

always looking for new solutions. Thanks for posting!!!

>

> Hello Friends,

>

> I'm sure most of us struggle to love ourselves, as children of BPD/Narc

parents. For years I've worked on this through therapy, religion,

anti-depressants, exercise, prayer/daily affirmations and etc. All have helped,

but not solved the problem.

>

> I often get hit with feelings of dread/depression about who I am. Usually

because I'm not taking care of a need for myself (because I'm either too busy

focusing on others' needs or finances are holding me back as I'm starting a

business).

>

> Of course we're going to have moments of disappointment or needs suddenly hit

us that we can't fulfill at that time, but how I've reacted needs to change.

Especially as a highly sensitive person.

>

> First I usually try to deny I'm even feeling bad. But when my mind denies my

pain, it comes out by my sudden drive to binge eat and watch TV. Once the

temporary numbing wears off, I feel like crap and will wonder " When will I ever

love myself! " This only inflames my dread/depression.

>

> As I was journaling yesterday, a life-changing thought hit me:

>

> The opposite of love is not hate...it's apathy. So when I have my " I hate

myself " moments, those feelings of dread/depression is actually an indication of

how MUCH I love myself! Because it's my subconscious saying, " Hey I love myself!

Please take care of me. "

>

> So ultimately my very nature IS love. I can't NOT love myself. Sure I may have

moments of apathy, but that's not the same. I don't need to learn to love

myself, I already and fully do!

>

> There's an incredible security in that for me. To know that whoever comes and

goes in my life, whatever rejection/abandonment I experience, I can never NOT be

loved.

>

> At the moment I'm not sure how this is going to help me overcome my depression

and eating disorder, but I'm excited to let you know.

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An excellent post and a really important issue, thank you. I hadn't thought

about looking at it that way before, but it's really helpful.

Love is a tough concept for me- it's an abstract term for what is probably a

basic psychological need. My parents always went on and on between rages about

how much they loved me, and how we can only show our real feelings (i.e. rages)

to the people we love the most. They were aware of and joked about the fact

that our family had no boundaries, which they implied was a sign of healthy love

since no one had to hide their feelings.

If people aren't raging at me, they don't love me and the relationship is

superficial (nada: " no one will ever love you as much as I do " ). So what does

it mean to love myself? Why should I love myself? And why would I want someone

else to love me? Love bites.

Last week I read in my Adult Children of Alcoholics this definition of feeling

loved: " A sense of feeling valued, understood, and heard. Listened to.

Feeling safe with another. Warmth in the heart. Lightness of body. "

Wow! That was shocking to read. It reminded me of the cliche that life without

love is not worth living. No wonder I've been suicidal most of my life.

So love is listening without judgment. I'm always confused by the advice to

just notice my thoughts without reacting to them. Maybe that's what it actually

means to love myself. Somehow, to hear the internalized nasty voices of my

parents in my head without getting defensive and angry at them. Those voices

are the part of me that split off and identified with the abusers so I could

survive, and now the rest of me is rejecting them.

> >

> > Hello Friends,

> >

> > I'm sure most of us struggle to love ourselves, as children of BPD/Narc

parents. For years I've worked on this through therapy, religion,

anti-depressants, exercise, prayer/daily affirmations and etc. All have helped,

but not solved the problem.

> >

> > I often get hit with feelings of dread/depression about who I am. Usually

because I'm not taking care of a need for myself (because I'm either too busy

focusing on others' needs or finances are holding me back as I'm starting a

business).

> >

> > Of course we're going to have moments of disappointment or needs suddenly

hit us that we can't fulfill at that time, but how I've reacted needs to change.

Especially as a highly sensitive person.

> >

> > First I usually try to deny I'm even feeling bad. But when my mind denies my

pain, it comes out by my sudden drive to binge eat and watch TV. Once the

temporary numbing wears off, I feel like crap and will wonder " When will I ever

love myself! " This only inflames my dread/depression.

> >

> > As I was journaling yesterday, a life-changing thought hit me:

> >

> > The opposite of love is not hate...it's apathy. So when I have my " I hate

myself " moments, those feelings of dread/depression is actually an indication of

how MUCH I love myself! Because it's my subconscious saying, " Hey I love myself!

Please take care of me. "

> >

> > So ultimately my very nature IS love. I can't NOT love myself. Sure I may

have moments of apathy, but that's not the same. I don't need to learn to love

myself, I already and fully do!

> >

> > There's an incredible security in that for me. To know that whoever comes

and goes in my life, whatever rejection/abandonment I experience, I can never

NOT be loved.

> >

> > At the moment I'm not sure how this is going to help me overcome my

depression and eating disorder, but I'm excited to let you know.

> >

>

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Thank you for your observations, Elmtree. . . my nada was the same way

telling me for years how she loved me, did everything for me. . " we were so

close " . . WHAT?? She too said " you always hurt the ones you love " . I do

believe that they believe this even though we can still see the abusive

behaviors and know the wrongness of never being heard, understood or valued

by them. Their version of love is that we made them feel warmth of heart

themselves and they've always been unconcerned with how they made us feel -

because they've always projected their feelings for us as being our feeling

for them.

I feel nothing most of the time - except pain and anxiety. I've come to

accept that I will never learn what JOY really feels like or understand FUN

because I'm always counting the costs of the moment and seeing the work or

expense behind it all. I don't feel worthy of the money spent or time away

from responsibilities, which I can only assume is from nada and fada.

Blessings to all of you. . . thanks for " listening " .

jwjrenslow@...> jwjrenslow@...

_____

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of elmtree_speaks

Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 7:20 AM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: I can't NOT love myself.

An excellent post and a really important issue, thank you. I hadn't thought

about looking at it that way before, but it's really helpful.

Love is a tough concept for me- it's an abstract term for what is probably a

basic psychological need. My parents always went on and on between rages

about how much they loved me, and how we can only show our real feelings

(i.e. rages) to the people we love the most. They were aware of and joked

about the fact that our family had no boundaries, which they implied was a

sign of healthy love since no one had to hide their feelings.

If people aren't raging at me, they don't love me and the relationship is

superficial (nada: " no one will ever love you as much as I do " ). So what

does it mean to love myself? Why should I love myself? And why would I want

someone else to love me? Love bites.

Last week I read in my Adult Children of Alcoholics this definition of

feeling loved: " A sense of feeling valued, understood, and heard. Listened

to. Feeling safe with another. Warmth in the heart. Lightness of body. "

Wow! That was shocking to read. It reminded me of the cliche that life

without love is not worth living. No wonder I've been suicidal most of my

life.

So love is listening without judgment. I'm always confused by the advice to

just notice my thoughts without reacting to them. Maybe that's what it

actually means to love myself. Somehow, to hear the internalized nasty

voices of my parents in my head without getting defensive and angry at them.

Those voices are the part of me that split off and identified with the

abusers so I could survive, and now the rest of me is rejecting them.

> >

> > Hello Friends,

> >

> > I'm sure most of us struggle to love ourselves, as children of BPD/Narc

parents. For years I've worked on this through therapy, religion,

anti-depressants, exercise, prayer/daily affirmations and etc. All have

helped, but not solved the problem.

> >

> > I often get hit with feelings of dread/depression about who I am.

Usually because I'm not taking care of a need for myself (because I'm either

too busy focusing on others' needs or finances are holding me back as I'm

starting a business).

> >

> > Of course we're going to have moments of disappointment or needs

suddenly hit us that we can't fulfill at that time, but how I've reacted

needs to change. Especially as a highly sensitive person.

> >

> > First I usually try to deny I'm even feeling bad. But when my mind

denies my pain, it comes out by my sudden drive to binge eat and watch TV.

Once the temporary numbing wears off, I feel like crap and will wonder " When

will I ever love myself! " This only inflames my dread/depression.

> >

> > As I was journaling yesterday, a life-changing thought hit me:

> >

> > The opposite of love is not hate...it's apathy. So when I have my " I

hate myself " moments, those feelings of dread/depression is actually an

indication of how MUCH I love myself! Because it's my subconscious saying,

" Hey I love myself! Please take care of me. "

> >

> > So ultimately my very nature IS love. I can't NOT love myself. Sure I

may have moments of apathy, but that's not the same. I don't need to learn

to love myself, I already and fully do!

> >

> > There's an incredible security in that for me. To know that whoever

comes and goes in my life, whatever rejection/abandonment I experience, I

can never NOT be loved.

> >

> > At the moment I'm not sure how this is going to help me overcome my

depression and eating disorder, but I'm excited to let you know.

> >

>

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Share on other sites

((((()))))

I too grew up with a warped, distorted notion of what " love " is. For me, being

loved was confusing and scary.

I've come to believe that my nada was incapable of perceiving me as a separate

individual from her own self; she was merged with me; there was no " you " and

" me " , it was just nada. I'm thinking that I would get raged at when I did not

reflect the perfect being that my nada needed herself to be.

Those with borderline pd often self-harm as a self-soothing technique. I think

that because my nada had no boundaries, that unleashing her rage at us kids was

her form of " self soothing " . Sister and I were her emotional and sometimes

physical punching bags, and she often seemed to feel a lot better after a

prolonged rage. She terrorized and brutalized her kids instead of cutting

herself, so to speak.

And I believe that my nada lacked the ability to feel either cognitive empathy

or affective empathy. (Cognitive empathy=the ability to " read " the emotions of

others, Affective empathy=the ability to feel another's emotions with them and

care about their feelings.)

My nada was oblivious to the shock, terror, pain and fear written on our faces

and visible in our cringing bodies. As a very small child I did actually begin

to shrink away from her in terror when she approached me, and flinch if she made

a sudden, unexpected move near me, and for that she shamed and blamed me for

being an " unloving, hateful " child who rejected *her*. She even mocked me,

calling me " Miss Touch-me-not. "

Like I've said before, I think my nada was way too mentally ill to have been

raising children, and yet I don't see how either Sister or I could have been

rescued because my nada was so capable of being " normal " in public, and she was

even much, much more " normal " to us when dad was home.

For the most part, my nada was able to save up all her rage and unleash it only

when it was safe for her to do so: when there were no witnesses.

Sister and I were basically screwed.

-Annie

>

> Thank you for your observations, Elmtree. . . my nada was the same way

> telling me for years how she loved me, did everything for me. . " we were so

> close " . . WHAT?? She too said " you always hurt the ones you love " . I do

> believe that they believe this even though we can still see the abusive

> behaviors and know the wrongness of never being heard, understood or valued

> by them. Their version of love is that we made them feel warmth of heart

> themselves and they've always been unconcerned with how they made us feel -

> because they've always projected their feelings for us as being our feeling

> for them.

>

>

>

> I feel nothing most of the time - except pain and anxiety. I've come to

> accept that I will never learn what JOY really feels like or understand FUN

> because I'm always counting the costs of the moment and seeing the work or

> expense behind it all. I don't feel worthy of the money spent or time away

> from responsibilities, which I can only assume is from nada and fada.

>

>

>

> Blessings to all of you. . . thanks for " listening " .

>

>

>

>

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Share on other sites

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for your responses.

I know we all have a lot of pain. I think healing requires two tracks.

Facing our childhood pain so someday we'll release ourselves from the power

of the abuse. That seems to be the majority of this group's posts, which is

understandable.

We also need to work on ourselves, which is the focus of this post. It's

great to hear from other people who are struggling to move forward with

their lives too.

Hopefully together we can move towards truly embracing our power to

overcome the abuse of our past...and frankly our own self-abuse. We all

deserve to be whole.

Have a good night.

> **

>

>

> ((((()))))

> I too grew up with a warped, distorted notion of what " love " is. For me,

> being loved was confusing and scary.

>

> I've come to believe that my nada was incapable of perceiving me as a

> separate individual from her own self; she was merged with me; there was no

> " you " and " me " , it was just nada. I'm thinking that I would get raged at

> when I did not reflect the perfect being that my nada needed herself to be.

>

> Those with borderline pd often self-harm as a self-soothing technique. I

> think that because my nada had no boundaries, that unleashing her rage at

> us kids was her form of " self soothing " . Sister and I were her emotional

> and sometimes physical punching bags, and she often seemed to feel a lot

> better after a prolonged rage. She terrorized and brutalized her kids

> instead of cutting herself, so to speak.

>

> And I believe that my nada lacked the ability to feel either cognitive

> empathy or affective empathy. (Cognitive empathy=the ability to " read " the

> emotions of others, Affective empathy=the ability to feel another's

> emotions with them and care about their feelings.)

>

> My nada was oblivious to the shock, terror, pain and fear written on our

> faces and visible in our cringing bodies. As a very small child I did

> actually begin to shrink away from her in terror when she approached me,

> and flinch if she made a sudden, unexpected move near me, and for that she

> shamed and blamed me for being an " unloving, hateful " child who rejected

> *her*. She even mocked me, calling me " Miss Touch-me-not. "

>

> Like I've said before, I think my nada was way too mentally ill to have

> been raising children, and yet I don't see how either Sister or I could

> have been rescued because my nada was so capable of being " normal " in

> public, and she was even much, much more " normal " to us when dad was home.

>

> For the most part, my nada was able to save up all her rage and unleash it

> only when it was safe for her to do so: when there were no witnesses.

>

> Sister and I were basically screwed.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > Thank you for your observations, Elmtree. . . my nada was the same way

> > telling me for years how she loved me, did everything for me. . " we were

> so

> > close " . . WHAT?? She too said " you always hurt the ones you love " . I do

> > believe that they believe this even though we can still see the abusive

> > behaviors and know the wrongness of never being heard, understood or

> valued

> > by them. Their version of love is that we made them feel warmth of heart

> > themselves and they've always been unconcerned with how they made us

> feel -

> > because they've always projected their feelings for us as being our

> feeling

> > for them.

> >

> >

> >

> > I feel nothing most of the time - except pain and anxiety. I've come to

> > accept that I will never learn what JOY really feels like or understand

> FUN

> > because I'm always counting the costs of the moment and seeing the work

> or

> > expense behind it all. I don't feel worthy of the money spent or time

> away

> > from responsibilities, which I can only assume is from nada and fada.

> >

> >

> >

> > Blessings to all of you. . . thanks for " listening " .

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

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Share on other sites

Wow Annie, that's a really interesting observation about terrorizing children as

a form of self-soothing. I had never thought of the connection to self-harm.

Your reading of your nada is spot on for mine too. They see the world through

the eyes of toddlers.

I have this terrifying image in my head of my parents as two five year olds

alone with a baby. It's fun to play with, but it does unexpected things and

sometimes it breaks and won't do what they want. It's very frustrating for them

and there's no adult to help them.

I started using this kind of image to take the God-like omnipotent parents out

of my head. It turns out, the more accurate image is much more painful. My

parents as the all-seeing-all-knowing-infinite made me feel small, crushed,

resentful. When see them in my mind as toddlers, stomping their little feet and

howling their rage at the baby that they think should be soothing them- it's

ghastly. Grotesque. That's what I've been hiding from all these years.

> >

> > Thank you for your observations, Elmtree. . . my nada was the same way

> > telling me for years how she loved me, did everything for me. . " we were so

> > close " . . WHAT?? She too said " you always hurt the ones you love " . I do

> > believe that they believe this even though we can still see the abusive

> > behaviors and know the wrongness of never being heard, understood or valued

> > by them. Their version of love is that we made them feel warmth of heart

> > themselves and they've always been unconcerned with how they made us feel -

> > because they've always projected their feelings for us as being our feeling

> > for them.

> >

> >

> >

> > I feel nothing most of the time - except pain and anxiety. I've come to

> > accept that I will never learn what JOY really feels like or understand FUN

> > because I'm always counting the costs of the moment and seeing the work or

> > expense behind it all. I don't feel worthy of the money spent or time away

> > from responsibilities, which I can only assume is from nada and fada.

> >

> >

> >

> > Blessings to all of you. . . thanks for " listening " .

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you. I think my nada was even " younger " , emotionally; I think she

was about 3 years old.

Nobody in their right mind would leave an infant in the care of a three year

old, it would be an act of unconscionable cruelty, and yet... because the three

year old has an adult's level of intelligence housed in an adult body, that is

what happened to me.

Its still difficult for me to even wrap my mind around conceptualizing the

notion that a person can have adult intelligence and yet have the emotions of a

toddler.

Its as weird and creepy as it would be to hold a 6 month old baby in your arms

who begins speaking to you in clear, articulate sentences and reasoning like an

adult. It would be

freakish!

-Annie

>

> Wow Annie, that's a really interesting observation about terrorizing children

as a form of self-soothing. I had never thought of the connection to self-harm.

Your reading of your nada is spot on for mine too. They see the world through

the eyes of toddlers.

>

> I have this terrifying image in my head of my parents as two five year olds

alone with a baby. It's fun to play with, but it does unexpected things and

sometimes it breaks and won't do what they want. It's very frustrating for them

and there's no adult to help them.

>

> I started using this kind of image to take the God-like omnipotent parents out

of my head. It turns out, the more accurate image is much more painful. My

parents as the all-seeing-all-knowing-infinite made me feel small, crushed,

resentful. When see them in my mind as toddlers, stomping their little feet and

howling their rage at the baby that they think should be soothing them- it's

ghastly. Grotesque. That's what I've been hiding from all these years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, this really echoed my own experiences. Both my BPD mother and NPD father

would taunt me with " Miss Touch-me-not " . I was known to run from my mother's

attempts to hug me, brush my hair, or set me on her lap pretty much as soon as I

could walk. My mother was mostly neglectful, and for whatever reason she only

outright hit my brother (following which he would beat on me), but she would

burn me with cigarettes when I sat on her lap and brutally tear at my hair when

" brushing " it. Dad would smack my face or the back of my head, and then there

where always whuppins with the belt. BPD sis was always fixated on control,

using the ten years and hundreds of pounds she had on me to hold me down while

she screamed in my face.

Is it any wonder I didn't want to be touched?

Self-esteem, love, and taking care of myself before I reach a point of collapse

are all things I struggle with as an adult. I have a hard time gauging the

quality of my work without external validation. Any time I thought I had done

something well as a child and proudly showed it to a family member, I was given

a list of all the errors or ways it could have been better. In truth, I was a

rather exceptional child: standardized test scores off the charts, GATE, won the

school spelling bee, first-chair violin in the orchestra, in advanced art and

the auditioned choir, gold medals in academic olympics, etc. By high school I

had learned to hide the things I really cared about from family members, and I

still struggle with sharing my true feelings and enthusiasms with my

friends/husband.

I don't honestly believe that I am good at anything, and I don't know if that is

something I will ever get over. I have some hope, because I was eventually able

to internalize the idea that it was possible for other people to like and even

love me. That my family was incapable of it, not that I was inherently

unlovable.

> >

> > Thank you for your observations, Elmtree. . . my nada was the same way

> > telling me for years how she loved me, did everything for me. . " we were so

> > close " . . WHAT?? She too said " you always hurt the ones you love " . I do

> > believe that they believe this even though we can still see the abusive

> > behaviors and know the wrongness of never being heard, understood or valued

> > by them. Their version of love is that we made them feel warmth of heart

> > themselves and they've always been unconcerned with how they made us feel -

> > because they've always projected their feelings for us as being our feeling

> > for them.

> >

> >

> >

> > I feel nothing most of the time - except pain and anxiety. I've come to

> > accept that I will never learn what JOY really feels like or understand FUN

> > because I'm always counting the costs of the moment and seeing the work or

> > expense behind it all. I don't feel worthy of the money spent or time away

> > from responsibilities, which I can only assume is from nada and fada.

> >

> >

> >

> > Blessings to all of you. . . thanks for " listening " .

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

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