Guest guest Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 (((((Irene))))) That's a good, positive step toward self-protection. You were not mean or ugly to your nada, you were calm and assertive. Its uncanny how much your nada sounds like mine did. Mine was very, very controlling, very paranoid, had fixed delusional ideas about people, remembered events in pretty much the opposite way that I (and Sister) did. Plus, mine would become enraged and scream at me and/or at Sister, call me names, etc, cry hysterically, etc. The following is NOT a medical opinion, its just based on my own experience and that of my Sister, in relation to our nada. Each individual is different, and I am not a psychologist, but it could be possible that if your nada is now elderly (late 70's or older) she could perhaps be developing senile dementia in addition to her bpd. When my nada began developing senile dementia, it just seemed like her regular bpd behaviors but on full volume: more intense and more frequent. The main difference was that her memory became more and more noticeably impaired and then she started actively hallucinating. The reason I'm bringing up this possibility is that the usual " difficult person " / bpd-loved-one-management-techniques (like " Medium Chill " ) don't really work very well on someone who is developing dementia or has full-blown demented because the individual is no longer connected with reality. All you can really do in such cases, in my own personal opinion, is to detach emotionally but with compassion if you can, limit contact, be the adult in the relationship, and not expect any comprehension or improvement. You can't use logic or reason with someone whose brain is being eaten away by senile dementia (or someone who has a whopping dose of BPD criteria " transient paranoia and delusional thinking. " again in my own opinion. I am not an expert, just another KO whose nada had what seemed like a triple helping of paranoia and delusional thinking for her whole life, which got worse as she developed senile dementia.) -Annie > > I'll try to keep this short but this latest " crisis " with nada lasted 5 days. The rundown: > > Wed: hubby called to see how she was. She was rude, started attacking me again. He was polite at first but the got fed up and told her: Irene tries so hard but it never seems good enough for you. She really got mad then. She finally told him: have a nice life and hung up. > > Fri-Sat we both felt toxic, dirty, sick. He tried calling her again. She was sarcastic, told him she was doing just fine. Told him that in re to me, she just can't do this any more. Not sure what that means. > > Sunday: I called, wanted 2 things - talk about her accusations against me and find out if she ever wanted me to come over again. It was stressful. > > She had accused me of being bossy, that I made decisions for her all the time and she bought things because she was afraid to tell me no. I pointed out to her that I make suggestions when she asks (about food, yard guys, which bra to buy) but I always stress that it's up to her. There are times that she insists that I make the decision (like recently about her new fridge). But she can say no anytime. I really don't care which food she wants or what bra she wears. I make every effort to make sure she does what she wants to do when I come over since that's the only time she gets out of the house. > > She then told me that I came over one day alone and " read her the riot act about her willz', that she could make a new one and give her money to whomever she wanted. I told her I don't remember that at all. (I was thinking she was full of **** but I didn't say that part.) I went on to say: First of all I never raise my voice to her and I always treat her with respect. I told her the only time I mentioned giving money to others was the day she had her will made up. I asked her if she wanted to include any of her favorite charitable organizations. > > She started in again about why do I come over at the same time each week. She thinks it's weird that I arrive at 10:00 every time. She's accused me of sitting around the corner waiting for the clock to reach 10. I told her that wasn't true. I leave my house at the same time and arrive whenever. It just works out most of the time but there have been times I was a few minutes late. She says I'm just trying to force my visits into a box. I said, do you want to hear why I come at the same time? I told her because I use my key to come in, I don't want to ramble in at any old time and startle her. (She does startle very easily and has been talking about getting a gun. Just what she needs). > > Then she went on about things missing around the house. She said we are the only people that come in her house. I'm only there 2 days a week and when things do go missing I'm sure it's because she's put it some place weird. Like the day she was upset about a missing ashtray. I finally found it on a shelf in her closet. But I can't tell her she's forgetful because of her pride. Anyway, I came right out and asked her: are you wondering if I'm taking things? She said oh no, she trusts me. I reminded her that when I leave the house, she can see exactly what's in my hands. If I was taking a lamp or her favorite towels, she would see them. > > After a few more items, she wanted to just drop the whole thing, pretend it never happened. I said: no, this is important to talk about these things. We can't have an honest relationship if you won't be honest with me. > > So I never lost my temper but I wouldn't let her say a bunch of BS either. I called her out on each thing. Some things are lost in her warped reality like me yelling at her or always arriving at 10:00 on the dot. Those will never change but it felt good to speak up, push back. I'm sure in 6 months or so she'll bring up the day I yelled at her on the phone. I only wish I could have recorded the conversation. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2012 Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 Irene, I'm glad to hear that you were able to push back when your nada tried to dish out her BS. Standing up for yourself is a good thing. Just remember that you can't reason with someone who doesn't like in the real world. She's going to believe what she chooses to believe no matter what you say. Pushing back will hopefully make you feel better but it probably won't improve her behavior. I agree with Annie that the missing things problem could be caused by the beginnings of dementia. When my grandmother developed dementia she became sure that someone was stealing her things. She'd do things like wrap the ice cream dipper in dish clothes, put rubber bands around the bundle, then put it in a coffee can and put that in the pantry. The next time she wanted it, it would't be findable and she'd " know " that it was stolen. My grandmother was a sweet old woman before she started developing dementia. Afterwards she was still a sweet old woman but she was a scared, sweet old woman who didn't recognize her husband much of the time let alone anyone else. I can't imagine what it would have been like to deal with her dementia if she'd had a personality disorder before developing dementia. At 11:37 AM 10/08/2012 IreneM wrote: >I'll try to keep this short but this latest " crisis " with nada >lasted 5 days. The rundown: > >Wed: hubby called to see how she was. She was rude, started >attacking me again. He was polite at first but the got fed up >and told her: Irene tries so hard but it never seems good >enough for you. She really got mad then. She finally told him: >have a nice life and hung up. > >Fri-Sat we both felt toxic, dirty, sick. He tried calling her >again. She was sarcastic, told him she was doing just fine. >Told him that in re to me, she just can't do this any more. Not >sure what that means. > >Sunday: I called, wanted 2 things - talk about her accusations >against me and find out if she ever wanted me to come over >again. It was stressful. > >She had accused me of being bossy, that I made decisions for >her all the time and she bought things because she was afraid >to tell me no. I pointed out to her that I make suggestions >when she asks (about food, yard guys, which bra to buy) but I >always stress that it's up to her. There are times that she >insists that I make the decision (like recently about her new >fridge). But she can say no anytime. I really don't care which >food she wants or what bra she wears. I make every effort to >make sure she does what she wants to do when I come over since >that's the only time she gets out of the house. > >She then told me that I came over one day alone and " read her >the riot act about her willz', that she could make a new one >and give her money to whomever she wanted. I told her I don't >remember that at all. (I was thinking she was full of **** but >I didn't say that part.) I went on to say: First of all I never >raise my voice to her and I always treat her with respect. I >told her the only time I mentioned giving money to others was >the day she had her will made up. I asked her if she wanted to >include any of her favorite charitable organizations. > >She started in again about why do I come over at the same time >each week. She thinks it's weird that I arrive at 10:00 every >time. She's accused me of sitting around the corner waiting for >the clock to reach 10. I told her that wasn't true. I leave my >house at the same time and arrive whenever. It just works out >most of the time but there have been times I was a few minutes >late. She says I'm just trying to force my visits into a box. I >said, do you want to hear why I come at the same time? I told >her because I use my key to come in, I don't want to ramble in >at any old time and startle her. (She does startle very easily >and has been talking about getting a gun. Just what she needs). > >Then she went on about things missing around the house. She >said we are the only people that come in her house. I'm only >there 2 days a week and when things do go missing I'm sure it's >because she's put it some place weird. Like the day she was >upset about a missing ashtray. I finally found it on a shelf in >her closet. But I can't tell her she's forgetful because of her >pride. Anyway, I came right out and asked her: are you >wondering if I'm taking things? She said oh no, she trusts me. >I reminded her that when I leave the house, she can see exactly >what's in my hands. If I was taking a lamp or her favorite >towels, she would see them. > >After a few more items, she wanted to just drop the whole >thing, pretend it never happened. I said: no, this is important >to talk about these things. We can't have an honest >relationship if you won't be honest with me. > >So I never lost my temper but I wouldn't let her say a bunch of >BS either. I called her out on each thing. Some things are lost >in her warped reality like me yelling at her or always arriving >at 10:00 on the dot. Those will never change but it felt good >to speak up, push back. I'm sure in 6 months or so she'll bring >up the day I yelled at her on the phone. I only wish I could >have recorded the conversation. > -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 To Annie and Katrina: thank you both for the feedback. Your words of understanding and support mean a lot to me. Update: Monday I went over as usual. I felt a bit tense, not sure how she felt. She was a bit hyper in her behavior. But I felt like I was walking through a mine field, always wondering if I said this or that, if she would be angry about it later. There was plenty of talking and laughter from her, I stayed a bit later than usual, then came home. Today (Wed) I made my usual phone call. She started in again but sounded very depressed even though she swears she isn't. Said she can't do this any more, she can't go on wondering why things go missing when we're the only people in the house. I agreed that I don't understand where things are going either but I wish I could reassure her that I would NEVER take anything from her, not even a nickel. She said she trusts me but she can't go on like this. She said she doesn't want me to come over any more, she's going to make arrangements for someone to take her places and to lock up her house more securely (locks and alarm isn't enough I guess). I told her I don't understand the connection: she says she has a good time when I come over, that she trusts me but she doesn't want me to come over. She went on about the will again, how simple it was supposed to be, that she would die and everything would go to me. I had no comment for that although I have encouraged her to make another will if she wanted. She didn't want to bother. She wants the one that's missing. She said she's going to settle in, just her and her dog and stay away from people. She then was very adamant saying, " I don't want you to come over. Do you understand? " I said I don't understand and don't agree but I will respect her wishes. I have no desire to upset her more. She told me she loved me and hung up. Right after that I called and left a message with her doctor's office, asked them to call me. Not sure if they will. Audrey, the nurse, is the only person nada has never bad mouthed. If I don't hear from her, I will write a letter about my concerns and take it to her. I have tried very hard these past four years in particular to meet nada's needs (physical and emotional to some degree), respected her privacy and need for autonomy but it's not working. I think it's time to get professionals involved. As for dementia, she is 84 years old now. A couple years ago I noticed changes and started keeping a journal of sorts, things she's said and done that I thought were out of the ordinary. Then I could look back and see if I was over reacting. I do think she's slipping down that slope quickly but refuses to admit it. She blames everything that goes wrong on others. I don't wish her harm but I also know she's not able to totally care for herself alone any more. That's why we've tried to help her when she would allow it so she could stay in her home. It's been such a long, hard road but I do think the end is near. Strange how I feel no pain, no fear any more, just resigned that this is the way things are. > > (((((Irene))))) > > That's a good, positive step toward self-protection. You were not mean or ugly to your nada, you were calm and assertive. > > Its uncanny how much your nada sounds like mine did. Mine was very, very controlling, very paranoid, had fixed delusional ideas about people, remembered events in pretty much the opposite way that I (and Sister) did. Plus, mine would become enraged and scream at me and/or at Sister, call me names, etc, cry hysterically, etc. > > The following is NOT a medical opinion, its just based on my own experience and that of my Sister, in relation to our nada. Each individual is different, and I am not a psychologist, but it could be possible that if your nada is now elderly (late 70's or older) she could perhaps be developing senile dementia in addition to her bpd. When my nada began developing senile dementia, it just seemed like her regular bpd behaviors but on full volume: more intense and more frequent. The main difference was that her memory became more and more noticeably impaired and then she started actively hallucinating. > > The reason I'm bringing up this possibility is that the usual " difficult person " / bpd-loved-one-management-techniques (like " Medium Chill " ) don't really work very well on someone who is developing dementia or has full-blown demented because the individual is no longer connected with reality. > > All you can really do in such cases, in my own personal opinion, is to detach emotionally but with compassion if you can, limit contact, be the adult in the relationship, and not expect any comprehension or improvement. You can't use logic or reason with someone whose brain is being eaten away by senile dementia (or someone who has a whopping dose of BPD criteria " transient paranoia and delusional thinking. " again in my own opinion. I am not an expert, just another KO whose nada had what seemed like a triple helping of paranoia and delusional thinking for her whole life, which got worse as she developed senile dementia.) > > -Annie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 An update: after she told me to go live my life, pretend she was dead, I called her doctor's office. I tried to involve them once before because I was concerned about her confusion and forgetfulness but it went no where. I specifically wanted to talk to the nurse because she is wonderful. I left a msg, she called back and she was fantastic, very understanding and supportive. She had a pretty strong clue that nada had now shifted her anger and criticism from my deceased dad to me. She was worried about me. I explained briefly about the conversations and her final comments about stay away. She said she would talk it over with the doctor and they would come up with a plan. What a relief to know there's a professional involved now. I was enjoying my peaceful days, the most relaxed I've been in years. This morning the phone rings and it's nada. I didn't pick up, had to think about this. I finally called back and she was acting as if there was nothing wrong. She asked me where her keys are (as if I would know). She thought maybe I had them since I do the driving. I explained the only time I drive her car is when I'm at her house so it makes sense to have the keys there. I never take them home. I suggested some places she could look (places where she's hidden them before). She asked about my bleeding kidneys (no answers yet from the doctors). She talked about the neighbors and brought up her Friday appt. coming up. I asked her how she was going to handle that, she had mentioned calling someone in to help with errands and house cleaning. She just rambled. I did not offer to take her. She talked about how sick she's been. Aha, now I know where she's headed. Yep, she mentioned the conversation we had last week, that she was so sick she didn't even remember what she had said. How clever is that? I happily reminded her that she told me several times that she did NOT want me to come over, just pretend she had died and go on with my life. She just laughed and told me I should just say: Oh, there she goes again on one of her fits. I told her no, I'm almost used to those but this was different. She was very adamant that she didn't want us to come over. That I was put in an awkward position. Anyway, she chatted, asked what I had planned for the day and told me to have a nice day. I plan to because I will not follow up with her. > At 11:37 AM 10/08/2012 IreneM wrote: > >I'll try to keep this short but this latest " crisis " with nada > >lasted 5 days. The rundown: > > > >Wed: hubby called to see how she was. She was rude, started > >attacking me again. He was polite at first but the got fed up > >and told her: Irene tries so hard but it never seems good > >enough for you. She really got mad then. She finally told him: > >have a nice life and hung up. > > > >Fri-Sat we both felt toxic, dirty, sick. He tried calling her > >again. She was sarcastic, told him she was doing just fine. > >Told him that in re to me, she just can't do this any more. Not > >sure what that means. > > > >Sunday: I called, wanted 2 things - talk about her accusations > >against me and find out if she ever wanted me to come over > >again. It was stressful. > > > >She had accused me of being bossy, that I made decisions for > >her all the time and she bought things because she was afraid > >to tell me no. I pointed out to her that I make suggestions > >when she asks (about food, yard guys, which bra to buy) but I > >always stress that it's up to her. There are times that she > >insists that I make the decision (like recently about her new > >fridge). But she can say no anytime. I really don't care which > >food she wants or what bra she wears. I make every effort to > >make sure she does what she wants to do when I come over since > >that's the only time she gets out of the house. > > > >She then told me that I came over one day alone and " read her > >the riot act about her willz', that she could make a new one > >and give her money to whomever she wanted. I told her I don't > >remember that at all. (I was thinking she was full of **** but > >I didn't say that part.) I went on to say: First of all I never > >raise my voice to her and I always treat her with respect. I > >told her the only time I mentioned giving money to others was > >the day she had her will made up. I asked her if she wanted to > >include any of her favorite charitable organizations. > > > >She started in again about why do I come over at the same time > >each week. She thinks it's weird that I arrive at 10:00 every > >time. She's accused me of sitting around the corner waiting for > >the clock to reach 10. I told her that wasn't true. I leave my > >house at the same time and arrive whenever. It just works out > >most of the time but there have been times I was a few minutes > >late. She says I'm just trying to force my visits into a box. I > >said, do you want to hear why I come at the same time? I told > >her because I use my key to come in, I don't want to ramble in > >at any old time and startle her. (She does startle very easily > >and has been talking about getting a gun. Just what she needs). > > > >Then she went on about things missing around the house. She > >said we are the only people that come in her house. I'm only > >there 2 days a week and when things do go missing I'm sure it's > >because she's put it some place weird. Like the day she was > >upset about a missing ashtray. I finally found it on a shelf in > >her closet. But I can't tell her she's forgetful because of her > >pride. Anyway, I came right out and asked her: are you > >wondering if I'm taking things? She said oh no, she trusts me. > >I reminded her that when I leave the house, she can see exactly > >what's in my hands. If I was taking a lamp or her favorite > >towels, she would see them. > > > >After a few more items, she wanted to just drop the whole > >thing, pretend it never happened. I said: no, this is important > >to talk about these things. We can't have an honest > >relationship if you won't be honest with me. > > > >So I never lost my temper but I wouldn't let her say a bunch of > >BS either. I called her out on each thing. Some things are lost > >in her warped reality like me yelling at her or always arriving > >at 10:00 on the dot. Those will never change but it felt good > >to speak up, push back. I'm sure in 6 months or so she'll bring > >up the day I yelled at her on the phone. I only wish I could > >have recorded the conversation. > > > > -- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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