Re: So it's biological, now what?

October 13, 2012

All I can say to this is...Thank you!! I am getting that book! My mother (no

father) had zero empathy and seemed to get manic and rejoice when things went

wrong or I was hurt, bullied, dissed, disappointed and frustrated ! She

rejoiced when a relationship did not work out, or I did not get a longed for job

or promotion... She would say " What did you do make an Ass out of yourself? " I

swear she was my one and only demise since birth! I always think of what could

have been or should have been If NOT raised my her sick twisted Self! Dear God,

I just want those last 52 years back without any resemblance of any one like her

in it!

I have very little contact with her, a phone call once every few weeks consists

of all her Dr. appts (no she has never been to a psych or therapist) and her

hair appts. and how broke she is. Never asks how I am doing, if it comes up she

quickly changes the subject to her or frivolous shit on TV! Tp avoid stepping on

land mines I keep it to the weather and her TV shows! Nothing emotional, no

disappointments in life no feeling or emotions NEVER! I will get my head chewed

up and spit out with the phone slammed down!! I made that mistake and wasn't on

guard for the last 52 years!!! You know it has to be pretty bad when her own

identical twin sister tells you at 33 y/o (divorced with a baby) " the best thing

you can ever do for yourself is get as far away from your Mother as possible "

!!!!

She had NOT one nurturing bone in her body and Zero Empathy. My Father knew full

well what he left me with at 2 years old and never looked back. They are both

bloody bastards to do what they did to an innocent child!

Just realizing and having some clarity now! Way too late in life to marry a

normal healthy man and raise my son like all my peers have had the luxury of

doing! I was robbed and then some...ended up marrying a male version of her!!!

Never re-married after that and keep my guard WAY UP!

Growing up I was scared to death of her and was under constant anxiety, stress

and 2nd guessing all my decisions.

Thank you again...I hope we ALL get a 2nd chance at this thing called a healthy,

normal, thriving life!

October 14, 2012

Lots of sympathy for you - we share many things. I too find one of the hardest

things to forgive is that my father abandoned me knowing how she was at a young

age. I of course have a lot of anger at my nada but the harder anger for me to

swallow is that at those who knew better and didn't help me.

The book is a little strange in one respect. The author tries to make it about

" evil " I guess to cash in on the trend of books on evil and sociopaths recently.

But really it is a book mainly about lack of empathy and as that on its own it

is the best collection I've ever seen of useful information about it. Info on

areas of the brain, particular genes that are associated, psychological issues,

% of genetic contribution to each condition. Really amazing. He even breaks

down the issue of cognitive empathy vs. affective empathy. Cognitive is just

recognizing another suffers...affective is having the appropriate caring

response to that recognition. Actually two different things. I could go on

all night.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy the book and it sets off light bulbs for you like it

did me.

E

>

> All I can say to this is...Thank you!! I am getting that book! My mother (no

father) had zero empathy and seemed to get manic and rejoice when things went

wrong or I was hurt, bullied, dissed, disappointed and frustrated ! She

rejoiced when a relationship did not work out, or I did not get a longed for job

or promotion... She would say " What did you do make an Ass out of yourself? " I

swear she was my one and only demise since birth! I always think of what could

have been or should have been If NOT raised my her sick twisted Self! Dear God,

I just want those last 52 years back without any resemblance of any one like her

in it!

>

> I have very little contact with her, a phone call once every few weeks

consists of all her Dr. appts (no she has never been to a psych or therapist)

and her hair appts. and how broke she is. Never asks how I am doing, if it comes

up she quickly changes the subject to her or frivolous shit on TV! Tp avoid

stepping on land mines I keep it to the weather and her TV shows! Nothing

emotional, no disappointments in life no feeling or emotions NEVER! I will get

my head chewed up and spit out with the phone slammed down!! I made that mistake

and wasn't on guard for the last 52 years!!! You know it has to be pretty bad

when her own identical twin sister tells you at 33 y/o (divorced with a baby)

" the best thing you can ever do for yourself is get as far away from your Mother

as possible " !!!!

> She had NOT one nurturing bone in her body and Zero Empathy. My Father knew

full well what he left me with at 2 years old and never looked back. They are

both bloody bastards to do what they did to an innocent child!

> Just realizing and having some clarity now! Way too late in life to marry a

normal healthy man and raise my son like all my peers have had the luxury of

doing! I was robbed and then some...ended up marrying a male version of her!!!

Never re-married after that and keep my guard WAY UP!

>

> Growing up I was scared to death of her and was under constant anxiety, stress

and 2nd guessing all my decisions.

> Thank you again...I hope we ALL get a 2nd chance at this thing called a

healthy, normal, thriving life!

>

October 14, 2012

The fact that someone else has BPD is definitely something that

is beyond are control. That's true regardless of what causes it.

We can't change them. We can only change ourselves and how we

react to them. I think that treating them like a dog with rabies

is a better metaphor than a hurricane. Like you say, it isn't a

one-time event. If a dog has rabies, it doesn't matter whether

we care about the dog or not, we have to take steps to protect

ourselves. We can feel compassion for the dog but we can't let

it bite us.

You don't have to stay stuck in the same painful relationship

you've been having with your parent because you have control

over your side of the relationship. You don't have to put up

with negative behavior. You can choose how you react to it.

Changing how you react may or may not improve the relationship

to the point where you can continue it is a relatively

not-harmful way. Sometimes no contact is the only healthy

option. You can choose to try setting and enforcing strong

boundaries for yourself if you don't want to cut off all

contact. Just remember that boundaries are about you, not about

the person with BPD. They define what you will and won't put up

with and how you'll react.

For what it is worth, I don't believe that our nadas and fadas

necessarily have no sense of empathy. My nada is capable of

acting like she has empathy for other people who aren't close to

her. Her ideas on how to react to other people's feeling are

sometimes very twisted but I do think there's some empathy for

other people. The more emotion she feels about someone, the less

empathy she seems to have though, to the point where she often

(but not always) acts like she doesn't care about how my sister

and I feel.

At 12:32 AM 10/14/2012 sevenlobsters wrote:

>So I just read an awesome book I think every KO of a cluster b

>should read called The science of evil by Baron-cohen. It's

>also published under the title of Zero Degrees of

>Empathy. This book shines the light on the lack of empathy

>common in psychopaths, narcissists, borderlines, and

>autistic/aspergers and finds what is in common. I was

>especially interested in the " empathy circuit " in the brain

>that is malfunctioning in all of these people. Literally they

>don't have the hardware to feel and respond the way they

>should. It has been proven.

>

>So where does that leave us? Wounded by growing up in the

>care of people in whom the lack of empathy would be the most

>harmful to our development. Stuck in permanent painful

>lifetime relationships unless willing to go NC. Where can

>blame go? responsibility go? When these people can no more

>respond in an emotionally normal way than they could run in

>they had no legs? I wonder if one should approach this the

>same as if a hurricane destroyed your house...a force of

>nature, something beyond our control. Trouble is that this

>isn't a one-time event...

>

>E

--

Katrina

October 14, 2012

I'd like to read that book too! I'd read earlier articles (I think it was Randi

Kreger, the owner of this Group and the author of " Stop Walking On Eggshells "

who referenced Cohen in an article at Psychology Today) about the difference

between cognitive empathy (the ability to " read " the emotions of others

accurately) and affective empathy (the ability to actually experience another's

emotions with them: i.e., experiencing your friend's sadness when your friend

has suffered a loss , AND wishing to comfort your friend) and found this

breakdown of the different types of empathy to be fascinating.

I'd also read articles and research papers that promote the theory that the

Cluster B disorders occur due to a combination of genetic predisposition PLUS an

invalidating environment, and this includes the *perception* of an invalidating

environment. So, some babies' inborn temperament is like that of an " emotional

burn victim " ; the baby is so hypersensitive to changes in her environment and

so reactive (unable to self-soothe) that even an ordinary, non-abusive home

environment is *perceived* as invalidating, hurtful and rejecting.

I think that my nada (my bpd/npd mom) was only able to feel real affective

empathy for a person when she could completely identify with that person (she

would express sympathy for a beautiful film heroine who was suffering undeserved

anguish) or if she felt that the other person's loss or their gain impacted her

own self in some way.

And yet, my nada was unable to engage in either form of empathy with my Sister

or me. With her two daughters, nada was more into projecting her own inner

feelings and thoughts and motivations onto us, instead of perceiving us as

separate, unique individuals who were NOT HER, and were generating our OWN

feelings and thoughts.

I've read that borderline pd is a disorder of intimacy; the more intimately

close you are to the person with bpd, the more bpd impacts the relationship.

That concept resonated with me, because my nada was able to have (at least on

the surface) workable relationships with neighbors, co-workers and

acquaintances. My nada was high-functioning and well thought of outside our

home. She only turned into " Ms Hyde " in private.

Me personally, I'd rather think of acts and behaviors as evil instead of people,

and yet its really difficult to separate a person's behaviors from who they are.

Its a conundrum.

I hope that all these new bits and pieces of knowledge about how the brain works

and what causes mental illnesses, as more and more genetic markers are

discovered and more medical techniques like real-time 3-D MRI scanning, will

eventually result in better, more effective diagnoses and treatment for mental

illnesses, and eventually result in a more mentally healthy world population,

particularly for the sake of children.

-Annie

> >So I just read an awesome book I think every KO of a cluster b

> >should read called The science of evil by Baron-cohen. It's

> >also published under the title of Zero Degrees of

> >Empathy. This book shines the light on the lack of empathy

> >common in psychopaths, narcissists, borderlines, and

> >autistic/aspergers and finds what is in common. I was

> >especially interested in the " empathy circuit " in the brain

> >that is malfunctioning in all of these people. Literally they

> >don't have the hardware to feel and respond the way they

> >should. It has been proven.

> >

> >So where does that leave us? Wounded by growing up in the

> >care of people in whom the lack of empathy would be the most

> >harmful to our development. Stuck in permanent painful

> >lifetime relationships unless willing to go NC. Where can

> >blame go? responsibility go? When these people can no more

> >respond in an emotionally normal way than they could run in

> >they had no legs? I wonder if one should approach this the

> >same as if a hurricane destroyed your house...a force of

> >nature, something beyond our control. Trouble is that this

> >isn't a one-time event...

> >

> >E

>

> --

> Katrina

>

October 14, 2012

Eliza, Does it say anything though about the *enjoyment of causing pain to

others? It's one thing to not comprehend you are causing someone pain; it's

another thing to actually enjoy doing do. I am 100% convinced that causing me

pain was something that both my parents craved and enjoyed, compulsively. I am

going to have to read vicariously through you guys on this one because I looked

at the previews of the book and I think it would bother me too much to try and

read it because it sounds like all that defense of 'evil' would pull me back in

to my parents' version of reality, and threaten my peace of mind. Which is of

course, their greatest wish for me..

>

> So I just read an awesome book I think every KO of a cluster b should read

called The science of evil by Baron-cohen. It's also published under the title

of Zero Degrees of Empathy. This book shines the light on the lack of empathy

common in psychopaths, narcissists, borderlines, and autistic/aspergers and

finds what is in common. I was especially interested in the " empathy circuit "

in the brain that is malfunctioning in all of these people. Literally they

don't have the hardware to feel and respond the way they should. It has been

proven.

>

> So where does that leave us? Wounded by growing up in the care of people in

whom the lack of empathy would be the most harmful to our development. Stuck in

permanent painful lifetime relationships unless willing to go NC. Where can

blame go? responsibility go? When these people can no more respond in an

emotionally normal way than they could run in they had no legs? I wonder if

one should approach this the same as if a hurricane destroyed your house...a

force of nature, something beyond our control. Trouble is that this isn't a

one-time event...

>

> E

>

October 14, 2012

I wanted to comment on that point too. I think that although my nada *observed*

that she was causing me great emotional distress, causing me emotional and

physical pain, and fear, she simply did not care, because releasing her own

pent-up feelings of rage and hurt and frustration were MUCH more important to

her than my feelings; I think I and my Sister were more like inanimate objects

to her; we had no feelings to hurt.

During the times that my nada was engaged in (a) attempting to pick a fight with

me, or ( actively immersed in a screaming, red-faced rage-tantrum and being

emotionally abusive and physically violent, she could not relate to the concept

that she was the *source* of my suffering. That fact was simply not relevant to

her. After her rage had passed, sometimes she would cry and apologize, but

sometimes she would act as though nothing at all had just happened: that she had

not just emotionally traumatized me again and made me even more afraid of her

than before (and even more angry at her than before; in either case I had to

swallow my outrage: expressing my own outrage was forbidden and could get me

beaten even worse.)

It seems to me also that on a very few occasions, my nada was actually pleased

to have made me cry, pleased to have shamed me into the ground and pleased to

see me humiliated; my pain gave her pleasure. She would get this odd smirk of

satisfaction on her face at those times. Fortunately, that sadistic, cruel side

of my nada didn't show itself often. Mostly I and my Sister were just

conveniently accessible, human-shaped punching bags that allowed her to vent her

built-up head of steamy rage.

-Annie

>

> Eliza, Does it say anything though about the *enjoyment of causing pain to

others? It's one thing to not comprehend you are causing someone pain; it's

another thing to actually enjoy doing do. I am 100% convinced that causing me

pain was something that both my parents craved and enjoyed, compulsively. I am

going to have to read vicariously through you guys on this one because I looked

at the previews of the book and I think it would bother me too much to try and

read it because it sounds like all that defense of 'evil' would pull me back in

to my parents' version of reality, and threaten my peace of mind. Which is of

course, their greatest wish for me..

October 15, 2012

Hi Charlotte, the book doesn't really address that as well as I wish it had.

Refers to it as " schadenfreude " a few times though that word has made its way

into more common usage and gets applied to things as trivial people getting

enjoyment out of celebrities getting embarrassed. The book does make very

clear that a person can have a complete lack of empathy and still have no desire

to make others suffer....so they just kind of accidentally do it. That's

clearly not the case you describe with your parents - very sorry you had to grow

up that way. To me lack of empathy is necessary for someone to act like that

but by itself could not cause it. Something more must be going on.

Eliza