How was your NADA with household pets?

[Guest guest]

I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost every one of

my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up? One " ran away "

after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened " (she took it to the

pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one was hit by a car and

died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I was a teenager), when she

forgot she had put it in the backyard and then opened the gate awhile later. It

ran away and crossed a street in heavy traffic. Again, I was at school when it

happened. The list goes on and on of dogs I loved and lost because of her

behavior.

Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger question?

It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and need to let go of...

[Guest guest]

Absolutely I experienced this! And before these pets " disappeared " , she

treated them horribly. I cannot describe the horror being a young child and

watching how she screamed at and beat them. I think it came down to her need

to control, and pets very much have their own personality and one nadas

cannot project theirs onto. Every one of our dogs that actually stayed

around for awhile were submissive and cowering. The more rebellious ones

ended up at the pound, given away or hit by a car.

I haven't thought about that in awhile.

_____

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of yorkiemom1952

Sent: October-19-12 12:23 AM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: How was your NADA with household pets?

I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost every

one of my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up? One

" ran away " after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened " (she took

it to the pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one was hit

by a car and died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I was a

teenager), when she forgot she had put it in the backyard and then opened

the gate awhile later. It ran away and crossed a street in heavy traffic.

Again, I was at school when it happened. The list goes on and on of dogs I

loved and lost because of her behavior.

Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger

question? It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and need to

let go of...

[Guest guest]

I am so sorry to hear you ahd to witness that. How horrible. At least my

mother did not physically abuse these animals. She just seemed to get tired of

them, or they did something that annoyed her like bark too much or poop in the

yard too much. My heart broke when she gave away my collie so that it could get

more exercise " in the country " and then the family that adopted her moved into a

house down the street. My collie would come visit me on its own and I would

spend hours brushing her and playing with her, and then she would have to go

home at the end of the day, to her new family. How does a parent witness this

and not feel guilty and regretful?

It's like BPD moms have no idea at all how their behavior affects other people.

It is like there is some kind of empathy deficit, and when you try and express

it, they look at you like you are speaking a foreign language, followed by

blame-shifting and tongue-lashing. And how responsible/accountable do we hold

them, knowing they suffer from a mental illness?

>

> Absolutely I experienced this! And before these pets " disappeared " , she

> treated them horribly. I cannot describe the horror being a young child and

> watching how she screamed at and beat them. I think it came down to her need

> to control, and pets very much have their own personality and one nadas

> cannot project theirs onto. Every one of our dogs that actually stayed

> around for awhile were submissive and cowering. The more rebellious ones

> ended up at the pound, given away or hit by a car.

>

> I haven't thought about that in awhile.

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: WTOAdultChildren1

> [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of yorkiemom1952

> Sent: October-19-12 12:23 AM

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Subject: How was your NADA with household pets?

>

>

>

>

>

> I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost every

> one of my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up? One

> " ran away " after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened " (she took

> it to the pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one was hit

> by a car and died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I was a

> teenager), when she forgot she had put it in the backyard and then opened

> the gate awhile later. It ran away and crossed a street in heavy traffic.

> Again, I was at school when it happened. The list goes on and on of dogs I

> loved and lost because of her behavior.

>

> Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger

> question? It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and need to

> let go of...

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

this never even dawned on me. Wow am I in the dark. Yes every pet I ever had

disappeared mysteriously. I can not remember her being mean to them, she just

did not pay attention to them.

My mom lied about stuff she didnt have to lie about to me. Like every birthday

she bought this huge birthday cake....the next day I would be coming home from

school thinking I would have some, it was always gone. I would ask and she said

" I threw it away " . One year I looked in the garbage and no cake, but empty cake

box??

As I read your posts things come to me. I was blamed for all her negative

feelings. It was me and my dads fault her life was so " horrible " , we were

" pigs " and she shouldnt have to live with us. She hit out of her uncontrolable

anger. She never diciplined me she always hit because she was out of control.

As I got older, I thought of her as imature. My dad stuck it out with her until

he could not take any more and he left. He only stayed away for about a year.

She was like a baby, she made me sleep with her and she cried and blamed me it

was unbleivable. I left and went with dad. He loved her and went back. I never

did. I got married at age 17, to someone very abusive. Just like mom. Imagine

that.

Every relationship I have had except for 3 have been like my mom. Curiously I

never marry the nice ones, I always marry the ones like mom. I am learning more

and more about myself through therapy. Hoping against hope that I can figure it

out before I die.

Love

Jean Ann

>

> Absolutely I experienced this! And before these pets " disappeared " , she

> treated them horribly. I cannot describe the horror being a young child and

> watching how she screamed at and beat them. I think it came down to her need

> to control, and pets very much have their own personality and one nadas

> cannot project theirs onto. Every one of our dogs that actually stayed

> around for awhile were submissive and cowering. The more rebellious ones

> ended up at the pound, given away or hit by a car.

>

> I haven't thought about that in awhile.

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: WTOAdultChildren1

> [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of yorkiemom1952

> Sent: October-19-12 12:23 AM

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Subject: How was your NADA with household pets?

>

>

>

>

>

> I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost every

> one of my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up? One

> " ran away " after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened " (she took

> it to the pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one was hit

> by a car and died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I was a

> teenager), when she forgot she had put it in the backyard and then opened

> the gate awhile later. It ran away and crossed a street in heavy traffic.

> Again, I was at school when it happened. The list goes on and on of dogs I

> loved and lost because of her behavior.

>

> Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger

> question? It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and need to

> let go of...

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Having been on support forums like this one for over 5 years now, it seems to me

that its not unusual for those with bpd to relate to pets in the household with

" black and white " thinking, in that the little pet is either " all good " or " all

bad. "

And who the pet actually belongs to makes a difference. Nada is likely to treat

her own pets differently than the pets belonging to her children or

grandchildren, or her husband's pets.

From what I've read, its not uncommon for a nada to split her own pets and

designate one as the " golden pet " and another as the " scapegoat pet " , while the

pets belonging to other family members are rarely " golden " and are more likely

to be the targets of nada's jealousy and resentment, and subjected to

passive-aggressive or covert hostility.

My own opinion is that if you have experienced a whole series of mysterious pet

deaths, mysterious pet illnesses, or mysterious pet disappearances that all

happened when your pets were alone with your nada, that such an ongoing pattern

of " mysterious " calamities isn't really so mysterious.

Somehow, cruelty to animals is one behavior that my nada didn't engage in, and

I'm grateful for that. It was an island of sanity in the midst of her other

bpd/npd behaviors.

-Annie

>

> I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost every one

of my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up? One " ran away "

after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened " (she took it to the

pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one was hit by a car and

died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I was a teenager), when she

forgot she had put it in the backyard and then opened the gate awhile later. It

ran away and crossed a street in heavy traffic. Again, I was at school when it

happened. The list goes on and on of dogs I loved and lost because of her

behavior.

>

> Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger question?

It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and need to let go of...

>

[Guest guest]

My own personal opinion (which I realize is massively politically incorrect) is

that if a person is exhibiting the traits and behaviors of bpd pretty frequently

and intensely, then that person is not safe to leave children or pets with. Its

like leaving a newborn infant in the care of a three-year-old and walking off; a

horrible tragedy will ensue.

Our society/culture hasn't evolved a paradigm yet for comprehending this bizarre

condition, that its possible for an adult body with an adult's level of

intelligence to nevertheless have a three-year-old child as the " driver. " In

the normal course of human growth and development, a three-year-old hasn't yet

evolved a sense of empathy for others or compassion for others. A

three-year-old is still the center of her own universe and other people exist to

serve her needs, and siblings are rivals. My own theory is that a mother with

bpd comes to relate to her own children as her siblings, and feels *sibling

rivalry toward her own children*.

A nada resents her child's need and dependency, resents her child's youth and

potential, because *nada* wants to be the dependent, adored child whose needs

and feelings are cared for, and *nada* wants to be the young girl on the

threshold of adulthood, again.

I feel that this dynamic manifested between me and my own nada, at any rate. I

wasn't " me " to my mother. I was never just " me. " I think that on some level I

represented my nada's own older sister to nada. My nada loathed her older

sister and was massively jealous/envious of her. So when I was " golden " I

represented nada's own idealized self to her, but when I was " black " I was

nada's hated rival, her older sister (as well as representing all of nada's own

unwanted, imperfect, shameful flaws and traits) and I got abused for it.

My nada used her intelligence to learn how to be a mother, but it was " by the

book " , so to speak. It was like a person who is tone-deaf and has no sense of

rhythm learning to play the piano. They can learn to read the notes and follow

the instructions and execute the mechanics of the task (perhaps using an aide

like a metronome) but there is no feeling in it. The piano playing sounds

accurate but mechanical or unpleasantly " off " , somehow.

When a person is born with sub-normal intellectual functioning, its obvious. We

can easily discern it when an individual who has an adult body is not

functioning with an adult's level of intellectual comprehension and reasoning.

But we have a great deal of difficulty discerning and dealing with adults who

have impaired emotional development; we haven't evolved a paradigm for this, a

way of relating to it and handling it.

Its like a blindness; we are unable to easily perceive impaired emotional

functioning in adults, and that blindness on the part of normal adults and

society seems to wind up impacting the children of the emotionally impaired, the

most innocent and vulnerable, most of all.

-Annie

> >

> > Absolutely I experienced this! And before these pets " disappeared " , she

> > treated them horribly. I cannot describe the horror being a young child and

> > watching how she screamed at and beat them. I think it came down to her need

> > to control, and pets very much have their own personality and one nadas

> > cannot project theirs onto. Every one of our dogs that actually stayed

> > around for awhile were submissive and cowering. The more rebellious ones

> > ended up at the pound, given away or hit by a car.

> >

> > I haven't thought about that in awhile.

> >

> >

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of yorkiemom1952

> > Sent: October-19-12 12:23 AM

> > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > Subject: How was your NADA with household pets?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost every

> > one of my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up? One

> > " ran away " after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened " (she took

> > it to the pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one was hit

> > by a car and died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I was a

> > teenager), when she forgot she had put it in the backyard and then opened

> > the gate awhile later. It ran away and crossed a street in heavy traffic.

> > Again, I was at school when it happened. The list goes on and on of dogs I

> > loved and lost because of her behavior.

> >

> > Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger

> > question? It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and need to

> > let go of...

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

So true Annie. I have judged myself verrrry harshly for, yet again!,

falling for one of these creeps. Still can't believe I still get fooled.

But these jerks are really good at hiding what they truly are!

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 12:11 PM, anuria67854 anuria-67854@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> My own personal opinion (which I realize is massively politically

> incorrect) is that if a person is exhibiting the traits and behaviors of

> bpd pretty frequently and intensely, then that person is not safe to leave

> children or pets with. Its like leaving a newborn infant in the care of a

> three-year-old and walking off; a horrible tragedy will ensue.

>

> Our society/culture hasn't evolved a paradigm yet for comprehending this

> bizarre condition, that its possible for an adult body with an adult's

> level of intelligence to nevertheless have a three-year-old child as the

> " driver. " In the normal course of human growth and development, a

> three-year-old hasn't yet evolved a sense of empathy for others or

> compassion for others. A three-year-old is still the center of her own

> universe and other people exist to serve her needs, and siblings are

> rivals. My own theory is that a mother with bpd comes to relate to her own

> children as her siblings, and feels *sibling rivalry toward her own

> children*.

>

> A nada resents her child's need and dependency, resents her child's youth

> and potential, because *nada* wants to be the dependent, adored child whose

> needs and feelings are cared for, and *nada* wants to be the young girl on

> the threshold of adulthood, again.

>

> I feel that this dynamic manifested between me and my own nada, at any

> rate. I wasn't " me " to my mother. I was never just " me. " I think that on

> some level I represented my nada's own older sister to nada. My nada

> loathed her older sister and was massively jealous/envious of her. So when

> I was " golden " I represented nada's own idealized self to her, but when I

> was " black " I was nada's hated rival, her older sister (as well as

> representing all of nada's own unwanted, imperfect, shameful flaws and

> traits) and I got abused for it.

>

> My nada used her intelligence to learn how to be a mother, but it was " by

> the book " , so to speak. It was like a person who is tone-deaf and has no

> sense of rhythm learning to play the piano. They can learn to read the

> notes and follow the instructions and execute the mechanics of the task

> (perhaps using an aide like a metronome) but there is no feeling in it. The

> piano playing sounds accurate but mechanical or unpleasantly " off " , somehow.

>

> When a person is born with sub-normal intellectual functioning, its

> obvious. We can easily discern it when an individual who has an adult body

> is not functioning with an adult's level of intellectual comprehension and

> reasoning. But we have a great deal of difficulty discerning and dealing

> with adults who have impaired emotional development; we haven't evolved a

> paradigm for this, a way of relating to it and handling it.

>

> Its like a blindness; we are unable to easily perceive impaired emotional

> functioning in adults, and that blindness on the part of normal adults and

> society seems to wind up impacting the children of the emotionally

> impaired, the most innocent and vulnerable, most of all.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> > >

> > > Absolutely I experienced this! And before these pets " disappeared " , she

> > > treated them horribly. I cannot describe the horror being a young

> child and

> > > watching how she screamed at and beat them. I think it came down to

> her need

> > > to control, and pets very much have their own personality and one nadas

> > > cannot project theirs onto. Every one of our dogs that actually stayed

> > > around for awhile were submissive and cowering. The more rebellious

> ones

> > > ended up at the pound, given away or hit by a car.

> > >

> > > I haven't thought about that in awhile.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > _____

> > >

> > > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of yorkiemom1952

> > > Sent: October-19-12 12:23 AM

> > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > Subject: How was your NADA with household pets?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost

> every

> > > one of my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up?

> One

> > > " ran away " after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened "

> (she took

> > > it to the pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one was

> hit

> > > by a car and died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I

> was a

> > > teenager), when she forgot she had put it in the backyard and then

> opened

> > > the gate awhile later. It ran away and crossed a street in heavy

> traffic.

> > > Again, I was at school when it happened. The list goes on and on of

> dogs I

> > > loved and lost because of her behavior.

> > >

> > > Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger

> > > question? It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and

> need to

> > > let go of...

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Test post

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Millicent Kunstler <

millicentkunstler@...> wrote:

> So true Annie. I have judged myself verrrry harshly for, yet again!,

> falling for one of these creeps. Still can't believe I still get fooled.

> But these jerks are really good at hiding what they truly are!

>

> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 12:11 PM, anuria67854 anuria-67854@...

> >wrote:

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > My own personal opinion (which I realize is massively politically

> > incorrect) is that if a person is exhibiting the traits and behaviors of

> > bpd pretty frequently and intensely, then that person is not safe to

> leave

> > children or pets with. Its like leaving a newborn infant in the care of a

> > three-year-old and walking off; a horrible tragedy will ensue.

> >

> > Our society/culture hasn't evolved a paradigm yet for comprehending this

> > bizarre condition, that its possible for an adult body with an adult's

> > level of intelligence to nevertheless have a three-year-old child as the

> > " driver. " In the normal course of human growth and development, a

> > three-year-old hasn't yet evolved a sense of empathy for others or

> > compassion for others. A three-year-old is still the center of her own

> > universe and other people exist to serve her needs, and siblings are

> > rivals. My own theory is that a mother with bpd comes to relate to her

> own

> > children as her siblings, and feels *sibling rivalry toward her own

> > children*.

> >

> > A nada resents her child's need and dependency, resents her child's youth

> > and potential, because *nada* wants to be the dependent, adored child

> whose

> > needs and feelings are cared for, and *nada* wants to be the young girl

> on

> > the threshold of adulthood, again.

> >

> > I feel that this dynamic manifested between me and my own nada, at any

> > rate. I wasn't " me " to my mother. I was never just " me. " I think that on

> > some level I represented my nada's own older sister to nada. My nada

> > loathed her older sister and was massively jealous/envious of her. So

> when

> > I was " golden " I represented nada's own idealized self to her, but when I

> > was " black " I was nada's hated rival, her older sister (as well as

> > representing all of nada's own unwanted, imperfect, shameful flaws and

> > traits) and I got abused for it.

> >

> > My nada used her intelligence to learn how to be a mother, but it was " by

> > the book " , so to speak. It was like a person who is tone-deaf and has no

> > sense of rhythm learning to play the piano. They can learn to read the

> > notes and follow the instructions and execute the mechanics of the task

> > (perhaps using an aide like a metronome) but there is no feeling in it.

> The

> > piano playing sounds accurate but mechanical or unpleasantly " off " ,

> somehow.

> >

> > When a person is born with sub-normal intellectual functioning, its

> > obvious. We can easily discern it when an individual who has an adult

> body

> > is not functioning with an adult's level of intellectual comprehension

> and

> > reasoning. But we have a great deal of difficulty discerning and dealing

> > with adults who have impaired emotional development; we haven't evolved a

> > paradigm for this, a way of relating to it and handling it.

> >

> > Its like a blindness; we are unable to easily perceive impaired emotional

> > functioning in adults, and that blindness on the part of normal adults

> and

> > society seems to wind up impacting the children of the emotionally

> > impaired, the most innocent and vulnerable, most of all.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

> >

> > > >

> > > > Absolutely I experienced this! And before these pets " disappeared " ,

> she

> > > > treated them horribly. I cannot describe the horror being a young

> > child and

> > > > watching how she screamed at and beat them. I think it came down to

> > her need

> > > > to control, and pets very much have their own personality and one

> nadas

> > > > cannot project theirs onto. Every one of our dogs that actually

> stayed

> > > > around for awhile were submissive and cowering. The more rebellious

> > ones

> > > > ended up at the pound, given away or hit by a car.

> > > >

> > > > I haven't thought about that in awhile.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > _____

> > > >

> > > > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of

> yorkiemom1952

> > > > Sent: October-19-12 12:23 AM

> > > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > > Subject: How was your NADA with household pets?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost

> > every

> > > > one of my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up?

> > One

> > > > " ran away " after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened "

> > (she took

> > > > it to the pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one

> was

> > hit

> > > > by a car and died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I

> > was a

> > > > teenager), when she forgot she had put it in the backyard and then

> > opened

> > > > the gate awhile later. It ran away and crossed a street in heavy

> > traffic.

> > > > Again, I was at school when it happened. The list goes on and on of

> > dogs I

> > > > loved and lost because of her behavior.

> > > >

> > > > Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger

> > > > question? It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and

> > need to

> > > > let go of...

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Don't beat yourself up too much. Even experts on psychopathy like Dr.

Hare, who developed the " gold standard " diagnostic tool (to detect psychopathy

in forensic populations) has said that HE has been fooled by psychopaths!

That's what they do; psychopaths are predators and they have turned deception

and manipulation into an art form. Psychopaths learn to mimic the words and

behaviors that convey empathy and compassion and loving kindness to others, only

in order to get you to trust them so that they can more easily exploit you.

All we can do is shore up our own vulnerability to these predators, by

developing more self-esteem and becoming less needy of the approval and

validation of others: become more self-validating and whole. I think that is

our greatest protection and strength.

And we can learn to recognize some of the more standard manipulative tools of

psychopaths. I recommend the book " The Gift of Fear " by Gavin deBecker for

that. His book is about re-awakening your buried self-preservation instincts

that are honed to perceive predatory traits and behaviors. Those of us raised

by abusive, exploitative parents had our natural instincts for self-preservation

eroded away or buried in order to survive our childhood, but these instincts can

be re-awakened.

-Annie

>

> So true Annie. I have judged myself verrrry harshly for, yet again!,

> falling for one of these creeps. Still can't believe I still get fooled.

> But these jerks are really good at hiding what they truly are!

>

[Guest guest]

My nada always was really excited to get a new pet, but then once she realized

the pet liked someone else better or wanted attention from her rather than

giving her attention, she lost interest pretty quick. I also believe that she

seriously beat and injured our family cat that died last year due to the

injuries. She claims she found the cat that way, and it must have fallen down

from the loft. This about a cat that, with no front claws, can catch and kill

bats and squirrels?

I think she ended up resenting the animals because she had to take care of them

after she went through the trouble of adopting them. My father did have to

" give " one pet away, actually euthanized it. He didn't want to tell me because

he knew how much I loved the dog, but she was very ill and had lost all mental

cognition. As an adult I understand it, but I felt hugely betrayed with him for

giving my pet away while I was at school and not telling me anything before

hand. As an adult I am upset that he didn't tell me the truth. I was a teenager

and it's not like I wouldn't understand if explained to properly.

But nada was always the one to be really excited to adopt a new animal and then

lose interest almost immediately, and then end up resenting the animal. What

amazes me is how can you resent a dog? They don't do anything on

purpose--they're dogs, they do dog things. It's like resenting a baby for being

alive. But I guess that's BPD behavior for you.

Anyway, yes, I noticed strange nada behavior towards pets.

>

> I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost every one

of my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up? One " ran away "

after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened " (she took it to the

pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one was hit by a car and

died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I was a teenager), when she

forgot she had put it in the backyard and then opened the gate awhile later. It

ran away and crossed a street in heavy traffic. Again, I was at school when it

happened. The list goes on and on of dogs I loved and lost because of her

behavior.

>

> Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger question?

It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and need to let go of...

>

[Guest guest]

My nada liked to use the pets as disciplinary tools. If she didn't like

behaviors or attitudes, she would threaten to get rid of the pet. If the pet

wasn't fed at the exact time she decided...like, if the food dish was only half

full...then it gave her the perfect forum to rage about what a terrible parent I

would be some day ( " how will you remember to feed a baby when you can't keep the

cat bowl filled?!? " ). Many was the time I had to stand before her, pet in arms,

begging and pleading to keep my pet.

Ninera

Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!

----- Reply message -----

Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2012 3:34 pm

Subject: Re: How was your NADA with household pets?

To: WTOAdultChildren1 >

[Guest guest]

So true! I begged and begged for puppy. She finally gave in but it HAD to be the

kind she wanted and we had to name it what she wanted. We had it for one night;

when I woke up the next day, they told me it was sick and had to go back. Had to

wait 14 years until I was out of college to get a pet, and now, with 2 dogs and

a cat, I can't imagine life without them. Kinda felt cheated; what else is new?

Francesca

> I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost every one

of my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up? One " ran away "

after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened " (she took it to the

pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one was hit by a car and

died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I was a teenager), when she

forgot she had put it in the backyard and then opened the gate awhile later. It

ran away and crossed a street in heavy traffic. Again, I was at school when it

happened. The list goes on and on of dogs I loved and lost because of her

behavior.

>

> Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger question?

It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and need to let go of...

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi KO's

I agree whole heartedly, Annie, et al,! *The Gift Of Fear *is a

validating and encouraging book! Learning to trust our own instincts is

essential to our emotional and physical safety and well-being.

Even when we, ourselves, as KO's learn to recognize these creatures, it

is terribly difficult to deal with the effects of their (sometimes

criminal) hedonism and carnality, since they are capable of presenting such

amazingly believable masks to the public.

My own NPD/BPD Nada was charming and disarming - the quintessential witch

queen. Yet, I have also met waif/witches who totally take people off guard,

by presenting a mask of homeliness, and humbleness, and may come off as "

not outstandingly bright, but good hearted ... " yet are quietly tampering

with food products, sabotaging the plumbing etc.

The author of " The Bad Seed, " March, wrote;

" In the first place. good people are rarely suspicious; they cannot

imagine others doing things they themselves are incapable of doing; usually

they accept the undramatic conclusion as the correct one, and let matters

rest there. Then, too, the normal are inclined to view the multiple killer

as the one who's as monstrous in appearance as he is in mind, which is

about as far from the truth as one could get....these monsters of real life

usually looked and behaved in a a more normal manner than their actually

more normal brothers and sisters: they presented a more convincing picture

of virtue, than virtue presented of itself - just as the wax rosebud or the

plastic peach seemed more perfect to the eye, more what the mind thought a

rosebud or a peach should be than the imperfect original from which it had

been modeled. "

March eventually had a nervous breakdown, from which he never fully

recovered.

Character Disordered Individuals are not the monsters *under y*our bed,

they are, all too often, the ones who come in to kiss you good night. . .

..relationships are not ends in themselves, they are " investments " which

damn well better pay off . . . spouses, children, friends, and pets are

theatrical props and fashion accessories. . .

*Everything my Nada says, or does, or claims to think or feel, is in

the service of her disorder.*

If she kisses you, it is because someone is watching, or she is trying

to manipulate you. Affection is currency, and always spent *in the service

of her disorder.*

If she buys someone a gift, it is because she was out shopping with

friends, and the gift selection was intended to manipulate the perceptions

of the observers, or, to manipulate the receiver. In other words;* in the

service of her disorder.*

If her lips are moving, she is obfuscating, manipulating, lying,

controlling, or my fave - *telling you the truth whether you want to hear

it or not* !!!!! *she is doing so in the service of her disorder.*

After a particularly vicious episode which occurred a few months ago, and

left me emotionally strafed, after which I was hospitalized with a major

blood clot,

( *how *is their timing so dead on target?) I copied this statement, and

taped in onto my mirrors, car visors, phone and night stand. Every time I

get teary, have a momentary lapse into nostalgic unreality, start feeling

guilty or vulnerable, I say out loud.

* EVERYTHING A CHARACTER DISORDERED INDIVIDUAL SAYS, THINKS, FEELS OR

DOES, IS IN THE SERVICE OF THEIR DISORDER.

NOTHING I CAN EVER SAY DO THINK OR FEEL, WILL EVER MATTER TO HIM/HER, IN

ANY MEANINGFUL WAY*

*THUS IT IS NOT SAFE TO BE IN HIS/HER PRESENCE,

I WILL NOT BE COMPLICIT IN ENDANGERING MYSELF OR MY FAMILY.

EVER.

I'm done with my Character Disordered family members.

*

*Finished. *

Pets dissapeared.

Relationships with friends and family were sabataged.

Professional relationships destroyed

She has interfered with family members medical treatment, by verbally

attacking medical teams, threatening them with malpractice suits, because

SHE was not being treated with the defference she felt was her due.....

She has impersonated people over the phone.....

She has repeatedly interfered with her siblings and her childrens

engagements and marriages...

She messes with the heads of her friends children, encouraging them to act

out, confide in her, and then emotionally blackmails them....

She is spiteful

She is vengeful

She is a destroyer.

*EVERYTHING SHE DOES, IS IN THE SERVICE OF HER DISORDER

*Their dedication to their disorder, is bigger than *my* ability to make a

family with them.

Their dedication to their disorder is greater than their ability to love.

Their dedication to their disorder is greater than their dedication to the

safety and wellbeing of their children, grandchildren, spouses, neighbors

and community.

They perceive us, essentially, as unruly figments of their imagination.

We are not safe in their presence.

Their grandchildren are not safe in their presence.

Character Disordered Individuals seem to be less a - person - with - a -

disorder, than a disorder - manifesting- a - body.

The are spiritual and emotional cannibals.

Removing ourselves from the menu is really hard, but boy does it feel good!

Kick the lid off that silver salver! squirt horseradish in their eyes! Hop

down off that table, and run for the door! Run! RUN! RUN!

It feels good to be back in OZ.

Sunspot

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Millicent Kunstler <

millicentkunstler@...> wrote:

> So true Annie. I have judged myself verrrry harshly for, yet again!,

> falling for one of these creeps. Still can't believe I still get fooled.

> But these jerks are really good at hiding what they truly are!

>

> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 12:11 PM, anuria67854 anuria-67854@...

> >wrote:

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > My own personal opinion (which I realize is massively politically

> > incorrect) is that if a person is exhibiting the traits and behaviors of

> > bpd pretty frequently and intensely, then that person is not safe to

> leave

> > children or pets with. Its like leaving a newborn infant in the care of a

> > three-year-old and walking off; a horrible tragedy will ensue.

> >

> > Our society/culture hasn't evolved a paradigm yet for comprehending this

> > bizarre condition, that its possible for an adult body with an adult's

> > level of intelligence to nevertheless have a three-year-old child as the

> > " driver. " In the normal course of human growth and development, a

> > three-year-old hasn't yet evolved a sense of empathy for others or

> > compassion for others. A three-year-old is still the center of her own

> > universe and other people exist to serve her needs, and siblings are

> > rivals. My own theory is that a mother with bpd comes to relate to her

> own

> > children as her siblings, and feels *sibling rivalry toward her own

> > children*.

> >

> > A nada resents her child's need and dependency, resents her child's youth

> > and potential, because *nada* wants to be the dependent, adored child

> whose

> > needs and feelings are cared for, and *nada* wants to be the young girl

> on

> > the threshold of adulthood, again.

> >

> > I feel that this dynamic manifested between me and my own nada, at any

> > rate. I wasn't " me " to my mother. I was never just " me. " I think that on

> > some level I represented my nada's own older sister to nada. My nada

> > loathed her older sister and was massively jealous/envious of her. So

> when

> > I was " golden " I represented nada's own idealized self to her, but when I

> > was " black " I was nada's hated rival, her older sister (as well as

> > representing all of nada's own unwanted, imperfect, shameful flaws and

> > traits) and I got abused for it.

> >

> > My nada used her intelligence to learn how to be a mother, but it was " by

> > the book " , so to speak. It was like a person who is tone-deaf and has no

> > sense of rhythm learning to play the piano. They can learn to read the

> > notes and follow the instructions and execute the mechanics of the task

> > (perhaps using an aide like a metronome) but there is no feeling in it.

> The

> > piano playing sounds accurate but mechanical or unpleasantly " off " ,

> somehow.

> >

> > When a person is born with sub-normal intellectual functioning, its

> > obvious. We can easily discern it when an individual who has an adult

> body

> > is not functioning with an adult's level of intellectual comprehension

> and

> > reasoning. But we have a great deal of difficulty discerning and dealing

> > with adults who have impaired emotional development; we haven't evolved a

> > paradigm for this, a way of relating to it and handling it.

> >

> > Its like a blindness; we are unable to easily perceive impaired emotional

> > functioning in adults, and that blindness on the part of normal adults

> and

> > society seems to wind up impacting the children of the emotionally

> > impaired, the most innocent and vulnerable, most of all.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

> >

> > > >

> > > > Absolutely I experienced this! And before these pets " disappeared " ,

> she

> > > > treated them horribly. I cannot describe the horror being a young

> > child and

> > > > watching how she screamed at and beat them. I think it came down to

> > her need

> > > > to control, and pets very much have their own personality and one

> nadas

> > > > cannot project theirs onto. Every one of our dogs that actually

> stayed

> > > > around for awhile were submissive and cowering. The more rebellious

> > ones

> > > > ended up at the pound, given away or hit by a car.

> > > >

> > > > I haven't thought about that in awhile.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > _____

> > > >

> > > > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of

> yorkiemom1952

> > > > Sent: October-19-12 12:23 AM

> > > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > > Subject: How was your NADA with household pets?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost

> > every

> > > > one of my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up?

> > One

> > > > " ran away " after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened "

> > (she took

> > > > it to the pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one

> was

> > hit

> > > > by a car and died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I

> > was a

> > > > teenager), when she forgot she had put it in the backyard and then

> > opened

> > > > the gate awhile later. It ran away and crossed a street in heavy

> > traffic.

> > > > Again, I was at school when it happened. The list goes on and on of

> > dogs I

> > > > loved and lost because of her behavior.

> > > >

> > > > Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger

> > > > question? It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and

> > need to

> > > > let go of...

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

RE " The Bad Seed " ; that was interesting that the author March pointed

out that the psychopaths among us can be hiding in plain sight because they can

seem to be even more " normal " than " normal " usually is. In other words, they

seem " perfect. "

In his tale " The Bad Seed " , the main character Rhoda Penmark (the pigtailed,

cherubic 10-year-old serial murderer) is frequently referred to by the adults in

the film as a " perfect " little girl.

Patty McCormack (the little actress playing Rhoda) pulled that off really well;

she nailed the tone and presentation of a *too perfect* child, and so she came

across as creepily, screamingly artificial. It was like watching a thirty-five

year old con-man wearing the body of a little girl and getting away with it.

My nada had a real thing about appearing to be " perfect " to those outside our

home, and she wanted her house to appear " perfect " at all times, in case someone

should suddenly drop in. However, over the entire time I lived with my parents,

I do not recall anyone EVER just " dropping in " unexpectedly to visit us. Not

once.

Also, Gavin de Becker points out in " The Gift of Fear " , that when you meet

someone who appears to be just too good to be true, that's probably correct.

Someone who is TOO perfect is probably not real at all, and is more likely to be

a psychopath who wants to be perceived as appealing, attractive, interesting,

harmless, and trustable.

-Annie

> > > > >

> > > > > Absolutely I experienced this! And before these pets " disappeared " ,

> > she

> > > > > treated them horribly. I cannot describe the horror being a young

> > > child and

> > > > > watching how she screamed at and beat them. I think it came down to

> > > her need

> > > > > to control, and pets very much have their own personality and one

> > nadas

> > > > > cannot project theirs onto. Every one of our dogs that actually

> > stayed

> > > > > around for awhile were submissive and cowering. The more rebellious

> > > ones

> > > > > ended up at the pound, given away or hit by a car.

> > > > >

> > > > > I haven't thought about that in awhile.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > _____

> > > > >

> > > > > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > > > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of

> > yorkiemom1952

> > > > > Sent: October-19-12 12:23 AM

> > > > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > > > Subject: How was your NADA with household pets?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost

> > > every

> > > > > one of my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up?

> > > One

> > > > > " ran away " after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened "

> > > (she took

> > > > > it to the pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one

> > was

> > > hit

> > > > > by a car and died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I

> > > was a

> > > > > teenager), when she forgot she had put it in the backyard and then

> > > opened

> > > > > the gate awhile later. It ran away and crossed a street in heavy

> > > traffic.

> > > > > Again, I was at school when it happened. The list goes on and on of

> > > dogs I

> > > > > loved and lost because of her behavior.

> > > > >

> > > > > Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger

> > > > > question? It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and

> > > need to

> > > > > let go of...

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

I was never allowed to have any pets. The closest thing I had to a pet was

playing with the caterpillars and spiders outside. She always said it was

because I was so sick and had asthma. Funny, I don't remember any of that but

she swears she had to get rid of all my stuffed animals/toys too. I remember

having plastic blow up toys.

Interesting thing now is I've worked with wildlife for 21 years with no problem,

have had loads of pets over the years (cats and rats) with no problem. I do have

slight asthma problem but it's so mild I rarely use an inhaler. Makes me wonder

if there was another reason for not letting me have a pet to love.

> >

> > I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost every

> > one of my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up? One

> > " ran away " after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened " (she took

> > it to the pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one was hit

> > by a car and died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I was a

> > teenager), when she forgot she had put it in the backyard and then opened

> > the gate awhile later. It ran away and crossed a street in heavy traffic.

> > Again, I was at school when it happened. The list goes on and on of dogs I

> > loved and lost because of her behavior.

> >

> > Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger

> > question? It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and need to

> > let go of...

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Annie,

I think you have a valid point. I see many of my nada's behaviours as stemming

from jealousy and the sibling analogy seems to fit other behavious as well. I

guess that would explain why every time I hear someone say that " when your

daughter grows up she will be your best friend " I am so creeped out.

LT

>

> My own personal opinion (which I realize is massively politically incorrect)

is that if a person is exhibiting the traits and behaviors of bpd pretty

frequently and intensely, then that person is not safe to leave children or pets

with. Its like leaving a newborn infant in the care of a three-year-old and

walking off; a horrible tragedy will ensue.

>

> Our society/culture hasn't evolved a paradigm yet for comprehending this

bizarre condition, that its possible for an adult body with an adult's level of

intelligence to nevertheless have a three-year-old child as the " driver. " In

the normal course of human growth and development, a three-year-old hasn't yet

evolved a sense of empathy for others or compassion for others. A

three-year-old is still the center of her own universe and other people exist to

serve her needs, and siblings are rivals. My own theory is that a mother with

bpd comes to relate to her own children as her siblings, and feels *sibling

rivalry toward her own children*.

>

> A nada resents her child's need and dependency, resents her child's youth and

potential, because *nada* wants to be the dependent, adored child whose needs

and feelings are cared for, and *nada* wants to be the young girl on the

threshold of adulthood, again.

>

> I feel that this dynamic manifested between me and my own nada, at any rate.

I wasn't " me " to my mother. I was never just " me. " I think that on some level

I represented my nada's own older sister to nada. My nada loathed her older

sister and was massively jealous/envious of her. So when I was " golden " I

represented nada's own idealized self to her, but when I was " black " I was

nada's hated rival, her older sister (as well as representing all of nada's own

unwanted, imperfect, shameful flaws and traits) and I got abused for it.

>

> My nada used her intelligence to learn how to be a mother, but it was " by the

book " , so to speak. It was like a person who is tone-deaf and has no sense of

rhythm learning to play the piano. They can learn to read the notes and follow

the instructions and execute the mechanics of the task (perhaps using an aide

like a metronome) but there is no feeling in it. The piano playing sounds

accurate but mechanical or unpleasantly " off " , somehow.

>

> When a person is born with sub-normal intellectual functioning, its obvious.

We can easily discern it when an individual who has an adult body is not

functioning with an adult's level of intellectual comprehension and reasoning.

But we have a great deal of difficulty discerning and dealing with adults who

have impaired emotional development; we haven't evolved a paradigm for this, a

way of relating to it and handling it.

>

> Its like a blindness; we are unable to easily perceive impaired emotional

functioning in adults, and that blindness on the part of normal adults and

society seems to wind up impacting the children of the emotionally impaired, the

most innocent and vulnerable, most of all.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

Thanks Sunspot,

I'm going on the lookout for " The Bad Seed " .

LT

>

> Hi KO's

>

> I agree whole heartedly, Annie, et al,! *The Gift Of Fear *is a

> validating and encouraging book! Learning to trust our own instincts is

> essential to our emotional and physical safety and well-being.

>

> Even when we, ourselves, as KO's learn to recognize these creatures, it

> is terribly difficult to deal with the effects of their (sometimes

> criminal) hedonism and carnality, since they are capable of presenting such

> amazingly believable masks to the public.

>

> My own NPD/BPD Nada was charming and disarming - the quintessential witch

> queen. Yet, I have also met waif/witches who totally take people off guard,

> by presenting a mask of homeliness, and humbleness, and may come off as "

> not outstandingly bright, but good hearted ... " yet are quietly tampering

> with food products, sabotaging the plumbing etc.

>

>

> The author of " The Bad Seed, " March, wrote;

>

> " In the first place. good people are rarely suspicious; they cannot

> imagine others doing things they themselves are incapable of doing; usually

> they accept the undramatic conclusion as the correct one, and let matters

> rest there. Then, too, the normal are inclined to view the multiple killer

> as the one who's as monstrous in appearance as he is in mind, which is

> about as far from the truth as one could get....these monsters of real life

> usually looked and behaved in a a more normal manner than their actually

> more normal brothers and sisters: they presented a more convincing picture

> of virtue, than virtue presented of itself - just as the wax rosebud or the

> plastic peach seemed more perfect to the eye, more what the mind thought a

> rosebud or a peach should be than the imperfect original from which it had

> been modeled. "

>

> March eventually had a nervous breakdown, from which he never fully

> recovered.

>

> Character Disordered Individuals are not the monsters *under y*our bed,

> they are, all too often, the ones who come in to kiss you good night. . .

> .relationships are not ends in themselves, they are " investments " which

> damn well better pay off . . . spouses, children, friends, and pets are

> theatrical props and fashion accessories. . .

>

> *Everything my Nada says, or does, or claims to think or feel, is in

> the service of her disorder.*

>

> If she kisses you, it is because someone is watching, or she is trying

> to manipulate you. Affection is currency, and always spent *in the service

> of her disorder.*

>

> If she buys someone a gift, it is because she was out shopping with

> friends, and the gift selection was intended to manipulate the perceptions

> of the observers, or, to manipulate the receiver. In other words;* in the

> service of her disorder.*

>

> If her lips are moving, she is obfuscating, manipulating, lying,

> controlling, or my fave - *telling you the truth whether you want to hear

> it or not* !!!!! *she is doing so in the service of her disorder.*

>

>

> After a particularly vicious episode which occurred a few months ago, and

> left me emotionally strafed, after which I was hospitalized with a major

> blood clot,

> ( *how *is their timing so dead on target?) I copied this statement, and

> taped in onto my mirrors, car visors, phone and night stand. Every time I

> get teary, have a momentary lapse into nostalgic unreality, start feeling

> guilty or vulnerable, I say out loud.

>

> * EVERYTHING A CHARACTER DISORDERED INDIVIDUAL SAYS, THINKS, FEELS OR

> DOES, IS IN THE SERVICE OF THEIR DISORDER.

>

> NOTHING I CAN EVER SAY DO THINK OR FEEL, WILL EVER MATTER TO HIM/HER, IN

> ANY MEANINGFUL WAY*

>

> *THUS IT IS NOT SAFE TO BE IN HIS/HER PRESENCE,

>

> I WILL NOT BE COMPLICIT IN ENDANGERING MYSELF OR MY FAMILY.

>

> EVER.

>

> I'm done with my Character Disordered family members.

> *

> *Finished. *

>

> Pets dissapeared.

> Relationships with friends and family were sabataged.

> Professional relationships destroyed

>

> She has interfered with family members medical treatment, by verbally

> attacking medical teams, threatening them with malpractice suits, because

> SHE was not being treated with the defference she felt was her due.....

>

> She has impersonated people over the phone.....

>

> She has repeatedly interfered with her siblings and her childrens

> engagements and marriages...

>

> She messes with the heads of her friends children, encouraging them to act

> out, confide in her, and then emotionally blackmails them....

>

> She is spiteful

> She is vengeful

> She is a destroyer.

>

> *EVERYTHING SHE DOES, IS IN THE SERVICE OF HER DISORDER

>

> *Their dedication to their disorder, is bigger than *my* ability to make a

> family with them.

>

> Their dedication to their disorder is greater than their ability to love.

>

> Their dedication to their disorder is greater than their dedication to the

> safety and wellbeing of their children, grandchildren, spouses, neighbors

> and community.

>

> They perceive us, essentially, as unruly figments of their imagination.

>

> We are not safe in their presence.

> Their grandchildren are not safe in their presence.

>

> Character Disordered Individuals seem to be less a - person - with - a -

> disorder, than a disorder - manifesting- a - body.

>

> The are spiritual and emotional cannibals.

>

> Removing ourselves from the menu is really hard, but boy does it feel good!

>

> Kick the lid off that silver salver! squirt horseradish in their eyes! Hop

> down off that table, and run for the door! Run! RUN! RUN!

>

> It feels good to be back in OZ.

>

> Sunspot

[Guest guest]

The sibling rivalry theory seems to ring true. Did anyone else's Nada constantly

" forget " that their grandparents were in fact grandparents, and instead call

them " your father " or " your mother " ? I remember always correcting her and saying

something like, " Oh, you mean grandma? " Nada would always dismiss it like she

was absent minded, but it happened a lot.

> >

> > My own personal opinion (which I realize is massively politically incorrect)

is that if a person is exhibiting the traits and behaviors of bpd pretty

frequently and intensely, then that person is not safe to leave children or pets

with. Its like leaving a newborn infant in the care of a three-year-old and

walking off; a horrible tragedy will ensue.

> >

> > Our society/culture hasn't evolved a paradigm yet for comprehending this

bizarre condition, that its possible for an adult body with an adult's level of

intelligence to nevertheless have a three-year-old child as the " driver. " In

the normal course of human growth and development, a three-year-old hasn't yet

evolved a sense of empathy for others or compassion for others. A

three-year-old is still the center of her own universe and other people exist to

serve her needs, and siblings are rivals. My own theory is that a mother with

bpd comes to relate to her own children as her siblings, and feels *sibling

rivalry toward her own children*.

> >

> > A nada resents her child's need and dependency, resents her child's youth

and potential, because *nada* wants to be the dependent, adored child whose

needs and feelings are cared for, and *nada* wants to be the young girl on the

threshold of adulthood, again.

> >

> > I feel that this dynamic manifested between me and my own nada, at any rate.

I wasn't " me " to my mother. I was never just " me. " I think that on some level

I represented my nada's own older sister to nada. My nada loathed her older

sister and was massively jealous/envious of her. So when I was " golden " I

represented nada's own idealized self to her, but when I was " black " I was

nada's hated rival, her older sister (as well as representing all of nada's own

unwanted, imperfect, shameful flaws and traits) and I got abused for it.

> >

> > My nada used her intelligence to learn how to be a mother, but it was " by

the book " , so to speak. It was like a person who is tone-deaf and has no sense

of rhythm learning to play the piano. They can learn to read the notes and

follow the instructions and execute the mechanics of the task (perhaps using an

aide like a metronome) but there is no feeling in it. The piano playing sounds

accurate but mechanical or unpleasantly " off " , somehow.

> >

> > When a person is born with sub-normal intellectual functioning, its obvious.

We can easily discern it when an individual who has an adult body is not

functioning with an adult's level of intellectual comprehension and reasoning.

But we have a great deal of difficulty discerning and dealing with adults who

have impaired emotional development; we haven't evolved a paradigm for this, a

way of relating to it and handling it.

> >

> > Its like a blindness; we are unable to easily perceive impaired emotional

functioning in adults, and that blindness on the part of normal adults and

society seems to wind up impacting the children of the emotionally impaired, the

most innocent and vulnerable, most of all.

> >

> > -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Contrary to most of the posts on here my nada was actually very fond and loving

with her animals. She took great care of them and we always had many kinds of

animals growing up. The BPD really came out and reared it's ugly head when she

adopted a dog who was previously a lab dog- a laboratory did testing on him- and

he ended up being aggressive. At first he was a great dog overweight and under

socialized but he became her project. She was always out walking him and helping

him to get into shape and meet other dogs. Two months after getting him he tried

to bite me when I returned home from a weekend in Boston( I am a crazy animal

lover. I now foster cats/dogs for a local shelter etc. and have NEVER had a

problem with an animal so this really came out of nowhere. This was towards the

end of my high school years when my mom and I's relationship really started to

deteriorate when I realized she had serious issues. ) So anyway, from that day

on something in the dog's head snapped and he absolutely hated me. He constantly

barked, tried to bite me etc. It was so bad that he had to be on a leash in the

house when I was home so he would not come after me. This definitely did not

help me and my mom's relationship. I think she made him her " golden child " while

me and her were at odds with each other. I was the bad one and to some extent he

was even more golden in her mind for disliking me and loving her. Messed up.

Anyway I soon moved out of the house to live with friends, went away to college,

and never saw that damn dog again. She eventually had to put him down because he

started biting other people and eventually went after her as well. Atleast

that's what I've put together because she won't really talk about it. It's " too

painful " .

[Guest guest]

Hunh. My nada also either gave away or killed the two pets that were truly

" mine " while I was at school. The first time she claimed I wasn't taking care of

it (not true, and that was the first time she had told me so). The second time,

she got this creepy tone to her voice and told me it just " went away " and

refused to give me any more details.

>

> I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost every one

of my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up? One " ran away "

after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened " (she took it to the

pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one was hit by a car and

died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I was a teenager), when she

forgot she had put it in the backyard and then opened the gate awhile later. It

ran away and crossed a street in heavy traffic. Again, I was at school when it

happened. The list goes on and on of dogs I loved and lost because of her

behavior.

>

> Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger question?

It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and need to let go of...

>

[Guest guest]

two words. criminal neglect

I will relate one story, there are others almost as bad, but his is the worst.

the pets were never allowed in the house, we never had a garage. we had a dog

named eddy who lived in a door less " kennel " it was chain link nailed to the

back side of a carport where no one could see it unless they were close. he

received food (mostly in his dish) through a PVC pipe stuck through the wires.

he was hosed off sometimes. when I got to high school I could pry the chain link

off of nails, and i started to take him fro walks, but he had absolutely no

training, and so he chased cars, tried to run away etc. but he was very

grateful.

my sister tried to rescue him, but he had never been so socialized and had

serious problems with her other dog, so she found another person with a big

heart to take him in.

that sister and I talked about that this last week. we decided this was our

lives in microcosm. we only got attention from outsiders not the people taking

care of us. it is truly heartbreaking.

Meikjn

> >

> > I am curious to know, am I alone in the experience of having almost every

one of my dogs given away " to a better home " while I was growing up? One " ran

away " after " the meter reader must have left the gate opened " (she took it to

the pound while my sister and I were in school). Another one was hit by a car

and died (a purebred I had bought with my own money when I was a teenager), when

she forgot she had put it in the backyard and then opened the gate awhile later.

It ran away and crossed a street in heavy traffic. Again, I was at school when

it happened. The list goes on and on of dogs I loved and lost because of her

behavior.

> >

> > Is this a BPD thing? And how do you forgive, is probably the bigger

question? It's probably the one thing that I still seethe about, and need to

let go of...

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I have a particularly bad memory about my nada and her dogs that I had almost

forgotten.

She loves dogs and hates cats. (I love cats and am learning to appreciate dogs.

Nada used to always compare me to a CAT, because I would sit on the heater in

wintertime, she kept the house so cold.)

My nada first had a German shephard when I was little. I remember we had real

dog food for that dog, that I nibbled on when I was hungry. Which seemed to be

often And we had a cat. The dog bit someone and had to be put down. We moved

across country and the cat was left in some farmer's barnyard. Did I say I love

cats?

Then my nada let me adopt another cat when we had a house to live in again. Our

cat was a orange male tabby that nada would never get fixed, so he would wander

a lot and get into fights. He needed to go to the vet for a wound he had gotten,

but I could not do it on my own, as I was not given a car to drive, and the bus

did not go to the vet's office. She got a dachshund and fed it the worst food

imaginable. Horrible leftovers, rotten cottage cheese. I was the one who had to

feed it. That dog had a hurt back and one day it bit a boy I was babysitting

for, on the lip. I had warned him the dog could turn on him, but the boy loved

dogs and tried to befriend Fritzi. It was awful, and he needed stitches.

Fritzi just disappeared, like writermanque described. It made no sense to me. I

had been the one Fritzie was closest to. It was about five years later than

nada volunteered and told me about how they had taken him to the vet to be

euthanized. She laughed as she described his behavior, running around the vet's

office, trying to get away.

I can still remember where I was, when she told me that on the phone. I just

remember being very quiet, keeping still so she would not have any idea about

how this was torturing me. I never wanted to hear this story again.

~

[Guest guest]

, I've been there too witnessing or hearing some horrible thing and

trying so very hard not to show a twitch. That's just so heartbreaking

especially about the how she told you about the dauschand. It's a terrible

thing. It's left me pretty effed up with regard to my own pets as an adult

because I overcompensate. I witnessed so much " benign " neglect that led to

heartbreak that I overdo it on the vet care - and yes it is possible to overdo

it. Vets will take your money and let you try to keep a sick animal alive long

after they should have been euthanized. It's a hard lesson that I'm still

learning on where it is appropriate to draw the line. I imagine that people who

grew up in households where pets were treated responsibly don't feel so tortured

about what the right thing to do is or how to handle it if they know someone who

is irresponsible. For me it is close to a PTSD level reaction to witness a pet

with a bad owner. I try to do right, to somehow " make up " for all I've seen but

somehow it is never enough.

Eliza

>

> I have a particularly bad memory about my nada and her dogs that I had almost

forgotten.

>

> She loves dogs and hates cats. (I love cats and am learning to appreciate

dogs. Nada used to always compare me to a CAT, because I would sit on the heater

in wintertime, she kept the house so cold.)

>

> My nada first had a German shephard when I was little. I remember we had real

dog food for that dog, that I nibbled on when I was hungry. Which seemed to be

often And we had a cat. The dog bit someone and had to be put down. We moved

across country and the cat was left in some farmer's barnyard. Did I say I love

cats?

>

> Then my nada let me adopt another cat when we had a house to live in again.

Our cat was a orange male tabby that nada would never get fixed, so he would

wander a lot and get into fights. He needed to go to the vet for a wound he had

gotten, but I could not do it on my own, as I was not given a car to drive, and

the bus did not go to the vet's office. She got a dachshund and fed it the

worst food imaginable. Horrible leftovers, rotten cottage cheese. I was the one

who had to feed it. That dog had a hurt back and one day it bit a boy I was

babysitting for, on the lip. I had warned him the dog could turn on him, but

the boy loved dogs and tried to befriend Fritzi. It was awful, and he needed

stitches.

>

> Fritzi just disappeared, like writermanque described. It made no sense to me.

I had been the one Fritzie was closest to. It was about five years later than

nada volunteered and told me about how they had taken him to the vet to be

euthanized. She laughed as she described his behavior, running around the vet's

office, trying to get away.

>

> I can still remember where I was, when she told me that on the phone. I just

remember being very quiet, keeping still so she would not have any idea about

how this was torturing me. I never wanted to hear this story again.

>

> ~

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It's weird that you mention overdoing it. I am guilty of that with my kids,

I get overly concerned if they are in a funk or feeling depressed. I know my

own emotional state as a child, and watched my 2 older brothers head into a

spiral of drugs and alcohol because of their problems. My dh assures me that

it is just normal teenage angst my kids struggle with, but that PTSD anxiety

and worry does set in. And I also have the problem of absorbing everyone

else's emotions in the family, after so many years of trying to calm nada

down, and be the anchor for everyone else.

_____

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of sevenlobsters

Sent: October-23-12 4:13 AM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: How was your NADA with household pets?

, I've been there too witnessing or hearing some horrible thing and

trying so very hard not to show a twitch. That's just so heartbreaking

especially about the how she told you about the dauschand. It's a terrible

thing. It's left me pretty effed up with regard to my own pets as an adult

because I overcompensate. I witnessed so much " benign " neglect that led to

heartbreak that I overdo it on the vet care - and yes it is possible to

overdo it. Vets will take your money and let you try to keep a sick animal

alive long after they should have been euthanized. It's a hard lesson that

I'm still learning on where it is appropriate to draw the line. I imagine

that people who grew up in households where pets were treated responsibly

don't feel so tortured about what the right thing to do is or how to handle

it if they know someone who is irresponsible. For me it is close to a PTSD

level reaction to witness a pet with a bad owner. I try to do right, to

somehow " make up " for all I've seen but somehow it is never enough.

Eliza

>

> I have a particularly bad memory about my nada and her dogs that I had

almost forgotten.

>

> She loves dogs and hates cats. (I love cats and am learning to appreciate

dogs. Nada used to always compare me to a CAT, because I would sit on the

heater in wintertime, she kept the house so cold.)

>

> My nada first had a German shephard when I was little. I remember we had

real dog food for that dog, that I nibbled on when I was hungry. Which

seemed to be often And we had a cat. The dog bit someone and had to be put

down. We moved across country and the cat was left in some farmer's

barnyard. Did I say I love cats?

>

> Then my nada let me adopt another cat when we had a house to live in

again. Our cat was a orange male tabby that nada would never get fixed, so

he would wander a lot and get into fights. He needed to go to the vet for a

wound he had gotten, but I could not do it on my own, as I was not given a

car to drive, and the bus did not go to the vet's office. She got a

dachshund and fed it the worst food imaginable. Horrible leftovers, rotten

cottage cheese. I was the one who had to feed it. That dog had a hurt back

and one day it bit a boy I was babysitting for, on the lip. I had warned him

the dog could turn on him, but the boy loved dogs and tried to befriend

Fritzi. It was awful, and he needed stitches.

>

> Fritzi just disappeared, like writermanque described. It made no sense to

me. I had been the one Fritzie was closest to. It was about five years later

than nada volunteered and told me about how they had taken him to the vet to

be euthanized. She laughed as she described his behavior, running around the

vet's office, trying to get away.

>

> I can still remember where I was, when she told me that on the phone. I

just remember being very quiet, keeping still so she would not have any idea

about how this was torturing me. I never wanted to hear this story again.

>

> ~

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, yep I do it too. I automatically turn into an emotional anchor for

anyone remotely needing anchoring unless I deliberately stop myself. The

training goes very deep. Still your children are better off that you care too

much than not at all.

>

> It's weird that you mention overdoing it. I am guilty of that with my kids,

> I get overly concerned if they are in a funk or feeling depressed. I know my

> own emotional state as a child, and watched my 2 older brothers head into a

> spiral of drugs and alcohol because of their problems. My dh assures me that

> it is just normal teenage angst my kids struggle with, but that PTSD anxiety

> and worry does set in. And I also have the problem of absorbing everyone

> else's emotions in the family, after so many years of trying to calm nada

> down, and be the anchor for everyone else.

>

>

>

>