Re: Want to break NC. Anyone have success with that?

[Guest guest]

AJ,

I don't think you're insane for thinking this. You're in a

different place in your life now and have had some time apart to

try to get a handle on the problem, so maybe you'll be better

able to deal with her now. Just don't expect her to have

changed.

I've never managed to go more than a few months without having

contact with my nada but that won't stop me from making a

suggestion. My advice is to set down before you contact her and

make a list of the types of behavior she engages in that led to

you going NC. Make a plan for how you're going to react to each

of those behaviors. Having a plan for how you're going to

enforce your boundaries increases the chances that you'll be

able to successfully enforce them.

Also, don't count on her cooperating with your decision to make

contact. She may decide that she doesn't want to be contacted.

At 04:11 PM 10/21/2012 aj91507 wrote:

>My birthday is tomorrow and I will be 35. I dont know if its

>because of my birthday or because 35 is a milestone for me but

>I am thinking contacting nada. I have been thinking about it

>for a while.

>

>Maybe its because I said that 35 is when I would end my 4 year

>long fertility struggle and consider adoption.

>Maybe its because I realize that I am almost 40 and have only

>barely begun to enjoy my life since Ive been NC.

>Maybe its because I know my nada is close to the end of her

>life and I want to repent.

>

>Im not sure why, but I have had this desire to resume contact

>for a while.

>

>We went NC about 3 years ago when a series of continous arguing

>and bashing of my husband came to a halt and she basically told

>me I was dead to her. Ive heard from her sporadically (birthday

>and Christmas cards, family weddings and funerals, etc) but

>never have had a serious discussion and sit down since our NC.

>

>Has anyone gone through this? Success with it or am I insane

>for even thinking this?

>

>PLEASE any advice is appreciated!

>

>AJ

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Hi AJ --

On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 4:11 PM, aj91507 adriennedelatorre@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> My birthday is tomorrow and I will be 35. I dont know if its because of my

> birthday or because 35 is a milestone for me but I am thinking contacting

> nada. I have been thinking about it for a while.

>

> Maybe its because I said that 35 is when I would end my 4 year long

> fertility struggle and consider adoption.

> Maybe its because I realize that I am almost 40 and have only barely begun

> to enjoy my life since Ive been NC.

> Maybe its because I know my nada is close to the end of her life and I

> want to repent.

>

> Im not sure why, but I have had this desire to resume contact for a while.

>

> We went NC about 3 years ago when a series of continous arguing and

> bashing of my husband came to a halt and she basically told me I was dead

> to her. Ive heard from her sporadically (birthday and Christmas cards,

> family weddings and funerals, etc) but never have had a serious discussion

> and sit down since our NC.

>

> Has anyone gone through this? Success with it or am I insane for even

> thinking this?

>

> PLEASE any advice is appreciated!

>

> AJ

>

>

Urgh, this is a hard one. But my initial reaction is -- DON'T DO IT. Or

if you're going to do it, do it very cautiously and carefully and don't

expect too much out of it (or her.) I'm 46 and I've spent most of my life

so far bouncing into my Nada's orbit, getting fed up with her nastiness,

bouncing back out again for ten or more years, then thinking " Okay, maybe

NOW she's changed, maybe NOW we'll be able to have some kind of a

relationship where she isn't always raging at me. "

I'm 46. She's 81. It has never happened, and it's only this year that I've

started to come to terms with the fact that is simply isn't ever going to.

This last " bounce " back home (which happened in 2008) will be the last --

I'm in the process of extracting myself, hope to be in another state before

the year changes, and have no intention of ever going back again. The

boomeranging is done and it's past time to just get on with my life.

If you're thinking of bringing a child -- via whatever method -- into your

life, I would say focus on that, and look forward to your future and not

back to your past. I'm fully aware that letting go of the hope of a

relationship with a Nada is terribly, horribly difficult -- and not every

Nada is necessarily as intractable as mine. But based on my own

experience, and based on what I've read, the personality disordered do NOT

get better with age. They do not " mellow " , and they do not use the wisdom

of their years to reflect on their bad behavior and spontaneously decide to

become better people. Instead, the looming loss of independence and control

that comes with the aging process spikes their anxiety to all-new highs,

and this prompts ever-more frequent and wild episodes of acting-out.

I don't think you're insane for considering this this at all, but I am

concerned that you may be kidding yourself about your Nada and what you

hope to get from her. Have you been feeling very lonely recently, perhaps

because of your inability to conceive? If that's what's going on, I

strongly urge you to spend time getting out and meeting new friends, being

social, getting involved in volunteer activities, rekindling your romance

with your husband (if necessary), taking up a new expressive hobby like

painting, taking a class -- instead of spending your time banging your

head against the brick wall of your relationship with your Nada. I'm not

saying miracles never happen -- they do. Just not nearly as often as

Hollywood would have you believe. And I think you would be better served

getting out and spending time around healthy people with normal emotions

instead of returning to spending time and effort on a toxic individual who

just happens to be your mother.

And there's another important question -- do you have any evidence that

your Nada is working on her issues, by whatever means might be effective

for her? Do you have any reason to think things will be different this

time? In my particular case, I only boomeranged back this last time because

after my father's death I thought my Nada might be ready to reconsider the

way she relates to me and my brother, and a relationship might be possible.

I did NOT know about personality disorders at that time, or I wouldn't have

gone back. My mother was somewhat more subdued for the first four months

or so after I returned, but when the shock of my Dad's death wore off, she

reverted completely to her old raging ways. NOTHING changed. And some

things got worse. (Her OCPD-like behaviors got more common and more

extreme -- that " control " thing spiraling upward in intensity.)

If your Nada hasn't actively been working to change, then I doubt a

three-year period of NC will have done anything except make her resent your

independence even more strongly. I doubt you have " taught " her anything by

this. I don't know her, so obviously I can't say for sure, but my

prediction would be that she'd be very sweet and nice for just as long as

it took to get your hopes up that " this time it will work " , and once she

sees you attaching to her again in any significant way, the emotional

knives will come out. It won't be conscious on her part (probably), but

she probably won't be able to help herself.

Now, I know the emotional pull to return to your parents and try to " make

things right " is incredibly strong. I completely get that, believe me. So

if you do give in to that pull and try to re-establish contact, I would

urge you:

1) Keep your expectations reasonable. Consider going for a " medium chill "

type of relationship as your goal rather than " mother-daughter bonding " .

Read up on BIFF communication techniques for high-conflict personalities

and be prepared to use them. (One book I read referred to this state as a

" truce " ; it's not war, but it's not an alliance either, just an agreement

to cease outright hostilities for the time being.) Also be prepared for

the notion that she may simply reject your offer of renewed relations if

she senses that you want it really badly -- she may regard this as

appropriate payback for three years of NC, so what might happen is just a

blunt rejection from her. (Or she might say she'd be glad to re-open

communication lines, only to suddenly cut you off cold after a few months

as " punishment " for the NC -- a sort of " Now you get to see how it feels! "

type of nastiness.)

2) Go slowly. Decide your limits and boundaries in advance and be calm,

kind, firm, and consistent when setting them. Calm and consistent are VERY

IMPORTANT. If she shows no sign of being able or willing to accept your

limits and respect your boundaries, stop there and reconsider. But beware

of what I said above -- she may very well show careful respect for your

boundaries for a short period, maybe as long as sixth months, but the odds

are excellent that as soon as she feels " safe " with you, she will start

pushing them hard. You'll need to be prepared for that, and not taken by

surprise because you thought she had " changed. " Don't let your guard down.

Anyway, with whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck. Be sure to

take good care of yourself with whatever path you decide on. You're in a

stressful period right now, it sounds like, and it's a bad time to make big

decisions with potentially harsh consequences. You might want to simply

put off this decision until your stress level is more reasonable so that

you can be sure you're not just being overwhelmed with the old instinct to

run back to the family when your life is making you worried and unhappy for

other reasons. For functional families it's a good instinct, but for those

with dysfunctional parents it generally just makes things worse. It's sad,

but it's usually true.

Best wishes,

-- Jen H.

[Guest guest]

I never on purpose went into NC, dint think I was allowed LOL...so whether to

communicate or not I dont know.

I am 58 and I had my mom come live with us in 1998. I was very busy and did not

pay that much attention to her. As I look back she was better. And the older

she got the better she got. I dont know if my paying all the bills and taking

care of her made a difference or not. My therapist also says as they get older

they can and do get better. May have something to do with that hormone thing I

was talking about on the site for parents of BPD's. See I am luckey...I am the

child and parent of BPD and I have grand children....it is what it is....

My NADA ( what does that mean?) made sure she worked on me and trained me

really well to take care of her no matter what. She was my mother and I was to

respect that. So I was a good little non BPD and did. The damage it has done

is baffeling me. So much damage.

Jean Ann

Jean Ann

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > My birthday is tomorrow and I will be 35. I dont know if its because of my

> > birthday or because 35 is a milestone for me but I am thinking contacting

> > nada. I have been thinking about it for a while.

> >

> > Maybe its because I said that 35 is when I would end my 4 year long

> > fertility struggle and consider adoption.

> > Maybe its because I realize that I am almost 40 and have only barely begun

> > to enjoy my life since Ive been NC.

> > Maybe its because I know my nada is close to the end of her life and I

> > want to repent.

> >

> > Im not sure why, but I have had this desire to resume contact for a while.

> >

> > We went NC about 3 years ago when a series of continous arguing and

> > bashing of my husband came to a halt and she basically told me I was dead

> > to her. Ive heard from her sporadically (birthday and Christmas cards,

> > family weddings and funerals, etc) but never have had a serious discussion

> > and sit down since our NC.

> >

> > Has anyone gone through this? Success with it or am I insane for even

> > thinking this?

> >

> > PLEASE any advice is appreciated!

> >

> > AJ

> >

> >

> Urgh, this is a hard one. But my initial reaction is -- DON'T DO IT. Or

> if you're going to do it, do it very cautiously and carefully and don't

> expect too much out of it (or her.) I'm 46 and I've spent most of my life

> so far bouncing into my Nada's orbit, getting fed up with her nastiness,

> bouncing back out again for ten or more years, then thinking " Okay, maybe

> NOW she's changed, maybe NOW we'll be able to have some kind of a

> relationship where she isn't always raging at me. "

>

> I'm 46. She's 81. It has never happened, and it's only this year that I've

> started to come to terms with the fact that is simply isn't ever going to.

> This last " bounce " back home (which happened in 2008) will be the last --

> I'm in the process of extracting myself, hope to be in another state before

> the year changes, and have no intention of ever going back again. The

> boomeranging is done and it's past time to just get on with my life.

>

> If you're thinking of bringing a child -- via whatever method -- into your

> life, I would say focus on that, and look forward to your future and not

> back to your past. I'm fully aware that letting go of the hope of a

> relationship with a Nada is terribly, horribly difficult -- and not every

> Nada is necessarily as intractable as mine. But based on my own

> experience, and based on what I've read, the personality disordered do NOT

> get better with age. They do not " mellow " , and they do not use the wisdom

> of their years to reflect on their bad behavior and spontaneously decide to

> become better people. Instead, the looming loss of independence and control

> that comes with the aging process spikes their anxiety to all-new highs,

> and this prompts ever-more frequent and wild episodes of acting-out.

>

> I don't think you're insane for considering this this at all, but I am

> concerned that you may be kidding yourself about your Nada and what you

> hope to get from her. Have you been feeling very lonely recently, perhaps

> because of your inability to conceive? If that's what's going on, I

> strongly urge you to spend time getting out and meeting new friends, being

> social, getting involved in volunteer activities, rekindling your romance

> with your husband (if necessary), taking up a new expressive hobby like

> painting, taking a class -- instead of spending your time banging your

> head against the brick wall of your relationship with your Nada. I'm not

> saying miracles never happen -- they do. Just not nearly as often as

> Hollywood would have you believe. And I think you would be better served

> getting out and spending time around healthy people with normal emotions

> instead of returning to spending time and effort on a toxic individual who

> just happens to be your mother.

>

> And there's another important question -- do you have any evidence that

> your Nada is working on her issues, by whatever means might be effective

> for her? Do you have any reason to think things will be different this

> time? In my particular case, I only boomeranged back this last time because

> after my father's death I thought my Nada might be ready to reconsider the

> way she relates to me and my brother, and a relationship might be possible.

> I did NOT know about personality disorders at that time, or I wouldn't have

> gone back. My mother was somewhat more subdued for the first four months

> or so after I returned, but when the shock of my Dad's death wore off, she

> reverted completely to her old raging ways. NOTHING changed. And some

> things got worse. (Her OCPD-like behaviors got more common and more

> extreme -- that " control " thing spiraling upward in intensity.)

>

> If your Nada hasn't actively been working to change, then I doubt a

> three-year period of NC will have done anything except make her resent your

> independence even more strongly. I doubt you have " taught " her anything by

> this. I don't know her, so obviously I can't say for sure, but my

> prediction would be that she'd be very sweet and nice for just as long as

> it took to get your hopes up that " this time it will work " , and once she

> sees you attaching to her again in any significant way, the emotional

> knives will come out. It won't be conscious on her part (probably), but

> she probably won't be able to help herself.

>

> Now, I know the emotional pull to return to your parents and try to " make

> things right " is incredibly strong. I completely get that, believe me. So

> if you do give in to that pull and try to re-establish contact, I would

> urge you:

>

> 1) Keep your expectations reasonable. Consider going for a " medium chill "

> type of relationship as your goal rather than " mother-daughter bonding " .

> Read up on BIFF communication techniques for high-conflict personalities

> and be prepared to use them. (One book I read referred to this state as a

> " truce " ; it's not war, but it's not an alliance either, just an agreement

> to cease outright hostilities for the time being.) Also be prepared for

> the notion that she may simply reject your offer of renewed relations if

> she senses that you want it really badly -- she may regard this as

> appropriate payback for three years of NC, so what might happen is just a

> blunt rejection from her. (Or she might say she'd be glad to re-open

> communication lines, only to suddenly cut you off cold after a few months

> as " punishment " for the NC -- a sort of " Now you get to see how it feels! "

> type of nastiness.)

>

> 2) Go slowly. Decide your limits and boundaries in advance and be calm,

> kind, firm, and consistent when setting them. Calm and consistent are VERY

> IMPORTANT. If she shows no sign of being able or willing to accept your

> limits and respect your boundaries, stop there and reconsider. But beware

> of what I said above -- she may very well show careful respect for your

> boundaries for a short period, maybe as long as sixth months, but the odds

> are excellent that as soon as she feels " safe " with you, she will start

> pushing them hard. You'll need to be prepared for that, and not taken by

> surprise because you thought she had " changed. " Don't let your guard down.

>

>

> Anyway, with whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck. Be sure to

> take good care of yourself with whatever path you decide on. You're in a

> stressful period right now, it sounds like, and it's a bad time to make big

> decisions with potentially harsh consequences. You might want to simply

> put off this decision until your stress level is more reasonable so that

> you can be sure you're not just being overwhelmed with the old instinct to

> run back to the family when your life is making you worried and unhappy for

> other reasons. For functional families it's a good instinct, but for those

> with dysfunctional parents it generally just makes things worse. It's sad,

> but it's usually true.

>

> Best wishes,

> -- Jen H.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> **

>

>

> I never on purpose went into NC, dint think I was allowed LOL...so whether

> to communicate or not I dont know.

>

> I am 58 and I had my mom come live with us in 1998. I was very busy and

> did not pay that much attention to her. As I look back she was better. And

> the older she got the better she got. I dont know if my paying all the

> bills and taking care of her made a difference or not. My therapist also

> says as they get older they can and do get better.

>

Interesting. My therapist says differently, but everyone is an individual

so you can get different outcomes. In any case I'm glad it got easier for

you and wish it had for me.

My NADA ( what does that mean?) made sure she worked on me and trained me

> really well to take care of her no matter what. She was my mother and I was

> to respect that. So I was a good little non BPD and did. The damage it has

> done is baffeling me. So much damage.

" Nada " is a mutated short version of " Not A " , as in, " Not A Mother. "

There's also " Fada " , which might have come first and was just a way of

saying " Father " without actually saying the full word. (You know, like

" Hello Mudda, Hello Fada, here I am at Camp Granada. " ) So kids with BPD

parents have Nadas and Fadas instead of mothers and fathers.

-- Jen H.

[Guest guest]

I wanted to make a comment about your therapist stating that " bpds get better

with age. "

I'm really happy for you that your bpd mother ( " nada " is a slang word here for

" bpd mother " ) became less abusive / easier to live with as she aged, however

from all the posts here and at other support Groups for the adult children of

personality-disordered parents that I've read and participated in over the last

five+ years, your bpd mother's case seems to be the exception rather than the

rule.

According to Randi Kreger, the owner of this site and the co-author of " Stop

Walking On Eggshells " , the statistics on bpd patients that your therapist may

have been referring to, are only compiled on bpd patients who actually go into

therapy. Most of the bpd patients who do wind up in therapy are the

low-functioning ones. Low-functioning means very out-of-control, who cut

themselves, are violent or dangerous, and/or make suicide attempts, and wind up

in supervised care.

These low-functioning bpd patients tend to be teenager and young adults, and

such individuals do tend to improve their extreme mood swings and

violent/suicidal behaviors if they receive proper psychiatric assessment,

intervention, medication therapy and talk therapies, as they reach middle age.

Dialectical behavioral therapy was developed to help low-functioning, suicidal

bpd patients, and it does seem to help in a lot of cases. THOSE are the

patients on whom the statistics are based.

However, the high-functioning individuals with bpd, the ones who seem " normal "

outside the home, are able to hold down jobs, and only " act out " with rage,

violence and verbal abuse against their loved ones in private... those are the

bpds that therapists rarely see because the high-functioning ones usually do not

seek psychiatric treatment.

The high-functioning bpd people seem to remain abusive throughout their

lifespan. According to Randi, the high-functioning or " invisible " bpds don't

even get counted in the estimates of how many people have bpd in the general

population.

In the case of my own mother, she was formally diagnosed with bpd late in life

and for most of her life she was very high-functioning. My mother / my " nada "

never really changed her basic core behaviors and traits and maintained these

abusive behaviors at about the same level up until the last 3 years of her life

when her bpd symptoms got worse, which may have been due to the fact that she

was also descending into senile dementia; she passed away almost a year ago,

now, at age 83.

So, I wanted to share that the statistics RE improvement for bpds are based

mostly on low-functioning bpd patients who are actually in the system of

psychiatric care, which then automatically excludes the high-functioning ones

who never seek treatment from being counted.

You are truly lucky that your bpd mother beat the odds and somehow managed to

mellow with age; I'm glad for you that that was the case.

-Annie

> >

> > > **

> > >

> > >

> > > My birthday is tomorrow and I will be 35. I dont know if its because of my

> > > birthday or because 35 is a milestone for me but I am thinking contacting

> > > nada. I have been thinking about it for a while.

> > >

> > > Maybe its because I said that 35 is when I would end my 4 year long

> > > fertility struggle and consider adoption.

> > > Maybe its because I realize that I am almost 40 and have only barely begun

> > > to enjoy my life since Ive been NC.

> > > Maybe its because I know my nada is close to the end of her life and I

> > > want to repent.

> > >

> > > Im not sure why, but I have had this desire to resume contact for a while.

> > >

> > > We went NC about 3 years ago when a series of continous arguing and

> > > bashing of my husband came to a halt and she basically told me I was dead

> > > to her. Ive heard from her sporadically (birthday and Christmas cards,

> > > family weddings and funerals, etc) but never have had a serious discussion

> > > and sit down since our NC.

> > >

> > > Has anyone gone through this? Success with it or am I insane for even

> > > thinking this?

> > >

> > > PLEASE any advice is appreciated!

> > >

> > > AJ

> > >

> > >

> > Urgh, this is a hard one. But my initial reaction is -- DON'T DO IT. Or

> > if you're going to do it, do it very cautiously and carefully and don't

> > expect too much out of it (or her.) I'm 46 and I've spent most of my life

> > so far bouncing into my Nada's orbit, getting fed up with her nastiness,

> > bouncing back out again for ten or more years, then thinking " Okay, maybe

> > NOW she's changed, maybe NOW we'll be able to have some kind of a

> > relationship where she isn't always raging at me. "

> >

> > I'm 46. She's 81. It has never happened, and it's only this year that I've

> > started to come to terms with the fact that is simply isn't ever going to.

> > This last " bounce " back home (which happened in 2008) will be the last --

> > I'm in the process of extracting myself, hope to be in another state before

> > the year changes, and have no intention of ever going back again. The

> > boomeranging is done and it's past time to just get on with my life.

> >

> > If you're thinking of bringing a child -- via whatever method -- into your

> > life, I would say focus on that, and look forward to your future and not

> > back to your past. I'm fully aware that letting go of the hope of a

> > relationship with a Nada is terribly, horribly difficult -- and not every

> > Nada is necessarily as intractable as mine. But based on my own

> > experience, and based on what I've read, the personality disordered do NOT

> > get better with age. They do not " mellow " , and they do not use the wisdom

> > of their years to reflect on their bad behavior and spontaneously decide to

> > become better people. Instead, the looming loss of independence and control

> > that comes with the aging process spikes their anxiety to all-new highs,

> > and this prompts ever-more frequent and wild episodes of acting-out.

> >

> > I don't think you're insane for considering this this at all, but I am

> > concerned that you may be kidding yourself about your Nada and what you

> > hope to get from her. Have you been feeling very lonely recently, perhaps

> > because of your inability to conceive? If that's what's going on, I

> > strongly urge you to spend time getting out and meeting new friends, being

> > social, getting involved in volunteer activities, rekindling your romance

> > with your husband (if necessary), taking up a new expressive hobby like

> > painting, taking a class -- instead of spending your time banging your

> > head against the brick wall of your relationship with your Nada. I'm not

> > saying miracles never happen -- they do. Just not nearly as often as

> > Hollywood would have you believe. And I think you would be better served

> > getting out and spending time around healthy people with normal emotions

> > instead of returning to spending time and effort on a toxic individual who

> > just happens to be your mother.

> >

> > And there's another important question -- do you have any evidence that

> > your Nada is working on her issues, by whatever means might be effective

> > for her? Do you have any reason to think things will be different this

> > time? In my particular case, I only boomeranged back this last time because

> > after my father's death I thought my Nada might be ready to reconsider the

> > way she relates to me and my brother, and a relationship might be possible.

> > I did NOT know about personality disorders at that time, or I wouldn't have

> > gone back. My mother was somewhat more subdued for the first four months

> > or so after I returned, but when the shock of my Dad's death wore off, she

> > reverted completely to her old raging ways. NOTHING changed. And some

> > things got worse. (Her OCPD-like behaviors got more common and more

> > extreme -- that " control " thing spiraling upward in intensity.)

> >

> > If your Nada hasn't actively been working to change, then I doubt a

> > three-year period of NC will have done anything except make her resent your

> > independence even more strongly. I doubt you have " taught " her anything by

> > this. I don't know her, so obviously I can't say for sure, but my

> > prediction would be that she'd be very sweet and nice for just as long as

> > it took to get your hopes up that " this time it will work " , and once she

> > sees you attaching to her again in any significant way, the emotional

> > knives will come out. It won't be conscious on her part (probably), but

> > she probably won't be able to help herself.

> >

> > Now, I know the emotional pull to return to your parents and try to " make

> > things right " is incredibly strong. I completely get that, believe me. So

> > if you do give in to that pull and try to re-establish contact, I would

> > urge you:

> >

> > 1) Keep your expectations reasonable. Consider going for a " medium chill "

> > type of relationship as your goal rather than " mother-daughter bonding " .

> > Read up on BIFF communication techniques for high-conflict personalities

> > and be prepared to use them. (One book I read referred to this state as a

> > " truce " ; it's not war, but it's not an alliance either, just an agreement

> > to cease outright hostilities for the time being.) Also be prepared for

> > the notion that she may simply reject your offer of renewed relations if

> > she senses that you want it really badly -- she may regard this as

> > appropriate payback for three years of NC, so what might happen is just a

> > blunt rejection from her. (Or she might say she'd be glad to re-open

> > communication lines, only to suddenly cut you off cold after a few months

> > as " punishment " for the NC -- a sort of " Now you get to see how it feels! "

> > type of nastiness.)

> >

> > 2) Go slowly. Decide your limits and boundaries in advance and be calm,

> > kind, firm, and consistent when setting them. Calm and consistent are VERY

> > IMPORTANT. If she shows no sign of being able or willing to accept your

> > limits and respect your boundaries, stop there and reconsider. But beware

> > of what I said above -- she may very well show careful respect for your

> > boundaries for a short period, maybe as long as sixth months, but the odds

> > are excellent that as soon as she feels " safe " with you, she will start

> > pushing them hard. You'll need to be prepared for that, and not taken by

> > surprise because you thought she had " changed. " Don't let your guard down.

> >

> >

> > Anyway, with whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck. Be sure to

> > take good care of yourself with whatever path you decide on. You're in a

> > stressful period right now, it sounds like, and it's a bad time to make big

> > decisions with potentially harsh consequences. You might want to simply

> > put off this decision until your stress level is more reasonable so that

> > you can be sure you're not just being overwhelmed with the old instinct to

> > run back to the family when your life is making you worried and unhappy for

> > other reasons. For functional families it's a good instinct, but for those

> > with dysfunctional parents it generally just makes things worse. It's sad,

> > but it's usually true.

> >

> > Best wishes,

> > -- Jen H.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello Annie,

I just want to comment that I always look forward to your posts.You are detail

and thorough.

I am so appreciative and honored to have you in our forum.

You have helped me tremendously and I'm sure so many more in this forum.

Thanks,

Juss

Sent from my iPhone

> I wanted to make a comment about your therapist stating that " bpds get better

with age. "

>

> I'm really happy for you that your bpd mother ( " nada " is a slang word here for

" bpd mother " ) became less abusive / easier to live with as she aged, however

from all the posts here and at other support Groups for the adult children of

personality-disordered parents that I've read and participated in over the last

five+ years, your bpd mother's case seems to be the exception rather than the

rule.

>

> According to Randi Kreger, the owner of this site and the co-author of " Stop

Walking On Eggshells " , the statistics on bpd patients that your therapist may

have been referring to, are only compiled on bpd patients who actually go into

therapy. Most of the bpd patients who do wind up in therapy are the

low-functioning ones. Low-functioning means very out-of-control, who cut

themselves, are violent or dangerous, and/or make suicide attempts, and wind up

in supervised care.

>

> These low-functioning bpd patients tend to be teenager and young adults, and

such individuals do tend to improve their extreme mood swings and

violent/suicidal behaviors if they receive proper psychiatric assessment,

intervention, medication therapy and talk therapies, as they reach middle age.

Dialectical behavioral therapy was developed to help low-functioning, suicidal

bpd patients, and it does seem to help in a lot of cases. THOSE are the patients

on whom the statistics are based.

>

> However, the high-functioning individuals with bpd, the ones who seem " normal "

outside the home, are able to hold down jobs, and only " act out " with rage,

violence and verbal abuse against their loved ones in private... those are the

bpds that therapists rarely see because the high-functioning ones usually do not

seek psychiatric treatment.

>

> The high-functioning bpd people seem to remain abusive throughout their

lifespan. According to Randi, the high-functioning or " invisible " bpds don't

even get counted in the estimates of how many people have bpd in the general

population.

>

> In the case of my own mother, she was formally diagnosed with bpd late in life

and for most of her life she was very high-functioning. My mother / my " nada "

never really changed her basic core behaviors and traits and maintained these

abusive behaviors at about the same level up until the last 3 years of her life

when her bpd symptoms got worse, which may have been due to the fact that she

was also descending into senile dementia; she passed away almost a year ago,

now, at age 83.

>

> So, I wanted to share that the statistics RE improvement for bpds are based

mostly on low-functioning bpd patients who are actually in the system of

psychiatric care, which then automatically excludes the high-functioning ones

who never seek treatment from being counted.

>

> You are truly lucky that your bpd mother beat the odds and somehow managed to

mellow with age; I'm glad for you that that was the case.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> > >

> > > > **

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > My birthday is tomorrow and I will be 35. I dont know if its because of

my

> > > > birthday or because 35 is a milestone for me but I am thinking

contacting

> > > > nada. I have been thinking about it for a while.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe its because I said that 35 is when I would end my 4 year long

> > > > fertility struggle and consider adoption.

> > > > Maybe its because I realize that I am almost 40 and have only barely

begun

> > > > to enjoy my life since Ive been NC.

> > > > Maybe its because I know my nada is close to the end of her life and I

> > > > want to repent.

> > > >

> > > > Im not sure why, but I have had this desire to resume contact for a

while.

> > > >

> > > > We went NC about 3 years ago when a series of continous arguing and

> > > > bashing of my husband came to a halt and she basically told me I was

dead

> > > > to her. Ive heard from her sporadically (birthday and Christmas cards,

> > > > family weddings and funerals, etc) but never have had a serious

discussion

> > > > and sit down since our NC.

> > > >

> > > > Has anyone gone through this? Success with it or am I insane for even

> > > > thinking this?

> > > >

> > > > PLEASE any advice is appreciated!

> > > >

> > > > AJ

> > > >

> > > >

> > > Urgh, this is a hard one. But my initial reaction is -- DON'T DO IT. Or

> > > if you're going to do it, do it very cautiously and carefully and don't

> > > expect too much out of it (or her.) I'm 46 and I've spent most of my life

> > > so far bouncing into my Nada's orbit, getting fed up with her nastiness,

> > > bouncing back out again for ten or more years, then thinking " Okay, maybe

> > > NOW she's changed, maybe NOW we'll be able to have some kind of a

> > > relationship where she isn't always raging at me. "

> > >

> > > I'm 46. She's 81. It has never happened, and it's only this year that I've

> > > started to come to terms with the fact that is simply isn't ever going to.

> > > This last " bounce " back home (which happened in 2008) will be the last --

> > > I'm in the process of extracting myself, hope to be in another state

before

> > > the year changes, and have no intention of ever going back again. The

> > > boomeranging is done and it's past time to just get on with my life.

> > >

> > > If you're thinking of bringing a child -- via whatever method -- into your

> > > life, I would say focus on that, and look forward to your future and not

> > > back to your past. I'm fully aware that letting go of the hope of a

> > > relationship with a Nada is terribly, horribly difficult -- and not every

> > > Nada is necessarily as intractable as mine. But based on my own

> > > experience, and based on what I've read, the personality disordered do NOT

> > > get better with age. They do not " mellow " , and they do not use the wisdom

> > > of their years to reflect on their bad behavior and spontaneously decide

to

> > > become better people. Instead, the looming loss of independence and

control

> > > that comes with the aging process spikes their anxiety to all-new highs,

> > > and this prompts ever-more frequent and wild episodes of acting-out.

> > >

> > > I don't think you're insane for considering this this at all, but I am

> > > concerned that you may be kidding yourself about your Nada and what you

> > > hope to get from her. Have you been feeling very lonely recently, perhaps

> > > because of your inability to conceive? If that's what's going on, I

> > > strongly urge you to spend time getting out and meeting new friends, being

> > > social, getting involved in volunteer activities, rekindling your romance

> > > with your husband (if necessary), taking up a new expressive hobby like

> > > painting, taking a class -- instead of spending your time banging your

> > > head against the brick wall of your relationship with your Nada. I'm not

> > > saying miracles never happen -- they do. Just not nearly as often as

> > > Hollywood would have you believe. And I think you would be better served

> > > getting out and spending time around healthy people with normal emotions

> > > instead of returning to spending time and effort on a toxic individual who

> > > just happens to be your mother.

> > >

> > > And there's another important question -- do you have any evidence that

> > > your Nada is working on her issues, by whatever means might be effective

> > > for her? Do you have any reason to think things will be different this

> > > time? In my particular case, I only boomeranged back this last time

because

> > > after my father's death I thought my Nada might be ready to reconsider the

> > > way she relates to me and my brother, and a relationship might be

possible.

> > > I did NOT know about personality disorders at that time, or I wouldn't

have

> > > gone back. My mother was somewhat more subdued for the first four months

> > > or so after I returned, but when the shock of my Dad's death wore off, she

> > > reverted completely to her old raging ways. NOTHING changed. And some

> > > things got worse. (Her OCPD-like behaviors got more common and more

> > > extreme -- that " control " thing spiraling upward in intensity.)

> > >

> > > If your Nada hasn't actively been working to change, then I doubt a

> > > three-year period of NC will have done anything except make her resent

your

> > > independence even more strongly. I doubt you have " taught " her anything by

> > > this. I don't know her, so obviously I can't say for sure, but my

> > > prediction would be that she'd be very sweet and nice for just as long as

> > > it took to get your hopes up that " this time it will work " , and once she

> > > sees you attaching to her again in any significant way, the emotional

> > > knives will come out. It won't be conscious on her part (probably), but

> > > she probably won't be able to help herself.

> > >

> > > Now, I know the emotional pull to return to your parents and try to " make

> > > things right " is incredibly strong. I completely get that, believe me. So

> > > if you do give in to that pull and try to re-establish contact, I would

> > > urge you:

> > >

> > > 1) Keep your expectations reasonable. Consider going for a " medium chill "

> > > type of relationship as your goal rather than " mother-daughter bonding " .

> > > Read up on BIFF communication techniques for high-conflict personalities

> > > and be prepared to use them. (One book I read referred to this state as a

> > > " truce " ; it's not war, but it's not an alliance either, just an agreement

> > > to cease outright hostilities for the time being.) Also be prepared for

> > > the notion that she may simply reject your offer of renewed relations if

> > > she senses that you want it really badly -- she may regard this as

> > > appropriate payback for three years of NC, so what might happen is just a

> > > blunt rejection from her. (Or she might say she'd be glad to re-open

> > > communication lines, only to suddenly cut you off cold after a few months

> > > as " punishment " for the NC -- a sort of " Now you get to see how it feels! "

> > > type of nastiness.)

> > >

> > > 2) Go slowly. Decide your limits and boundaries in advance and be calm,

> > > kind, firm, and consistent when setting them. Calm and consistent are VERY

> > > IMPORTANT. If she shows no sign of being able or willing to accept your

> > > limits and respect your boundaries, stop there and reconsider. But beware

> > > of what I said above -- she may very well show careful respect for your

> > > boundaries for a short period, maybe as long as sixth months, but the odds

> > > are excellent that as soon as she feels " safe " with you, she will start

> > > pushing them hard. You'll need to be prepared for that, and not taken by

> > > surprise because you thought she had " changed. " Don't let your guard down.

> > >

> > >

> > > Anyway, with whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck. Be sure to

> > > take good care of yourself with whatever path you decide on. You're in a

> > > stressful period right now, it sounds like, and it's a bad time to make

big

> > > decisions with potentially harsh consequences. You might want to simply

> > > put off this decision until your stress level is more reasonable so that

> > > you can be sure you're not just being overwhelmed with the old instinct to

> > > run back to the family when your life is making you worried and unhappy

for

> > > other reasons. For functional families it's a good instinct, but for those

> > > with dysfunctional parents it generally just makes things worse. It's sad,

> > > but it's usually true.

> > >

> > > Best wishes,

> > > -- Jen H.

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

That is such a nice compliment, thank you! I'm glad that we can all share with

each other here. I'm always looking for and receiving valuable new insights and

perspectives from members of this Group.

I agree, its a great bunch of people.

-Annie

>

> Hello Annie,

>

> I just want to comment that I always look forward to your posts.You are detail

and thorough.

>

> I am so appreciative and honored to have you in our forum.

> You have helped me tremendously and I'm sure so many more in this forum.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Juss

>

> Sent from my iPhone

[Guest guest]

I have to agree with Juss,

Annie, your input has been invaluable to me as I have struggled to

comprehend the devastating nature of this relationship with my Nada.

Although I felt that some of these experiences were extreme, I also

somewhere believed, or was afraid I was just over-reacting, and weak

minded.

The kind validation you so generously provide, balanced with the

information you so diligently seek out and share, is healing at a profound

level.

Thanks Annie,

Sunspot

On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 12:57 AM, anuria67854 anuria-67854@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> That is such a nice compliment, thank you! I'm glad that we can all share

> with each other here. I'm always looking for and receiving valuable new

> insights and perspectives from members of this Group.

> I agree, its a great bunch of people.

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > Hello Annie,

> >

> > I just want to comment that I always look forward to your posts.You are

> detail and thorough.

> >

> > I am so appreciative and honored to have you in our forum.

> > You have helped me tremendously and I'm sure so many more in this forum.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Juss

> >

> > Sent from my iPhone

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Sunspot; I get a lot out of your posts too: you have valuable insights

to share as do so many here. Its like we're all pieces of a million-piece

jigsaw puzzle and we each contribute a bit of the whole picture.

-Annie

>

> I have to agree with Juss,

>

> Annie, your input has been invaluable to me as I have struggled to

> comprehend the devastating nature of this relationship with my Nada.

>

> Although I felt that some of these experiences were extreme, I also

> somewhere believed, or was afraid I was just over-reacting, and weak

> minded.

>

> The kind validation you so generously provide, balanced with the

> information you so diligently seek out and share, is healing at a profound

> level.

>

> Thanks Annie,

> Sunspot

[Guest guest]

That's a great analogy!

This board has certainly helped me find some perspective in the " big

picture " of the whole BPD conundrum. It is so painful, and so confusing. I

am so grateful for this board, and all of those who contribute. I have

learned so much, and have found succor and comfort, and challenges too!

Sometimes,in the past, even as an adult KO, I have been so blindsided

by Nadas behavior, and left so deeply stunned and wounded, that just

getting dressed was a major accomplishment.

Finding Oz has been a blessing!

Sunspot

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 1:39 AM, anuria67854 anuria-67854@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> Thank you Sunspot; I get a lot out of your posts too: you have valuable

> insights to share as do so many here. Its like we're all pieces of a

> million-piece jigsaw puzzle and we each contribute a bit of the whole

> picture.

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > I have to agree with Juss,

> >

> > Annie, your input has been invaluable to me as I have struggled to

> > comprehend the devastating nature of this relationship with my Nada.

> >

> > Although I felt that some of these experiences were extreme, I also

> > somewhere believed, or was afraid I was just over-reacting, and weak

> > minded.

> >

> > The kind validation you so generously provide, balanced with the

> > information you so diligently seek out and share, is healing at a

> profound

> > level.

> >

> > Thanks Annie,

> > Sunspot

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

There is something about betrayal by one's parents that is totally,

fundamentally different than being abused by ANYONE else in one's life, seems to

me. Children are so totally and abjectly " at the mercy " of their parents, for

good or for ill. So when we are betrayed by our primary caregiver(s), before

the individual has the intellectual capacity to even perceive or comprehend what

" betrayal " is, the abuse can result in a core injury: an injury to our

personhood, our concept of who we are at our core.

And the bizarre twist is that children *have no choice* but to continue to

depend and rely on someone who betrays, exploits and abuses their trust, their

need and and their innocence daily. It seems to me that we are all genetically

programmed on, like, a molecular level to crave to bond with our parent(s), no

matter what kind of parent we happen to wind up with.

I think it was the author of " Understanding the Borderline Mother " who spoke of

that issue, that betrayal by those who are supposed to be caring for you

(supposed to have your best interest at heart, supposed to want you and LOVE

you) is *qualitatively* different than betrayal/abuse by strangers, friends or

acquaintances.

-Annie

> > >

> > > I have to agree with Juss,

> > >

> > > Annie, your input has been invaluable to me as I have struggled to

> > > comprehend the devastating nature of this relationship with my Nada.

> > >

> > > Although I felt that some of these experiences were extreme, I also

> > > somewhere believed, or was afraid I was just over-reacting, and weak

> > > minded.

> > >

> > > The kind validation you so generously provide, balanced with the

> > > information you so diligently seek out and share, is healing at a

> > profound

> > > level.

> > >

> > > Thanks Annie,

> > > Sunspot

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

So true.

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 4:29 PM, anuria67854 anuria-67854@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> There is something about betrayal by one's parents that is totally,

> fundamentally different than being abused by ANYONE else in one's life,

> seems to me. Children are so totally and abjectly " at the mercy " of their

> parents, for good or for ill. So when we are betrayed by our primary

> caregiver(s), before the individual has the intellectual capacity to even

> perceive or comprehend what " betrayal " is, the abuse can result in a core

> injury: an injury to our personhood, our concept of who we are at our core.

>

> And the bizarre twist is that children *have no choice* but to continue to

> depend and rely on someone who betrays, exploits and abuses their trust,

> their need and and their innocence daily. It seems to me that we are all

> genetically programmed on, like, a molecular level to crave to bond with

> our parent(s), no matter what kind of parent we happen to wind up with.

>

> I think it was the author of " Understanding the Borderline Mother " who

> spoke of that issue, that betrayal by those who are supposed to be caring

> for you (supposed to have your best interest at heart, supposed to want you

> and LOVE you) is *qualitatively* different than betrayal/abuse by

> strangers, friends or acquaintances.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> > > >

> > > > I have to agree with Juss,

> > > >

> > > > Annie, your input has been invaluable to me as I have struggled to

> > > > comprehend the devastating nature of this relationship with my Nada.

> > > >

> > > > Although I felt that some of these experiences were extreme, I also

> > > > somewhere believed, or was afraid I was just over-reacting, and weak

> > > > minded.

> > > >

> > > > The kind validation you so generously provide, balanced with the

> > > > information you so diligently seek out and share, is healing at a

> > > profound

> > > > level.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks Annie,

> > > > Sunspot

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I feel it is the ultimate betrayal one can experience.

Sent from my iPhone

> There is something about betrayal by one's parents that is totally,

fundamentally different than being abused by ANYONE else in one's life, seems to

me. Children are so totally and abjectly " at the mercy " of their parents, for

good or for ill. So when we are betrayed by our primary caregiver(s), before the

individual has the intellectual capacity to even perceive or comprehend what

" betrayal " is, the abuse can result in a core injury: an injury to our

personhood, our concept of who we are at our core.

>

> And the bizarre twist is that children *have no choice* but to continue to

depend and rely on someone who betrays, exploits and abuses their trust, their

need and and their innocence daily. It seems to me that we are all genetically

programmed on, like, a molecular level to crave to bond with our parent(s), no

matter what kind of parent we happen to wind up with.

>

> I think it was the author of " Understanding the Borderline Mother " who spoke

of that issue, that betrayal by those who are supposed to be caring for you

(supposed to have your best interest at heart, supposed to want you and LOVE

you) is *qualitatively* different than betrayal/abuse by strangers, friends or

acquaintances.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> > > >

> > > > I have to agree with Juss,

> > > >

> > > > Annie, your input has been invaluable to me as I have struggled to

> > > > comprehend the devastating nature of this relationship with my Nada.

> > > >

> > > > Although I felt that some of these experiences were extreme, I also

> > > > somewhere believed, or was afraid I was just over-reacting, and weak

> > > > minded.

> > > >

> > > > The kind validation you so generously provide, balanced with the

> > > > information you so diligently seek out and share, is healing at a

> > > profound

> > > > level.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks Annie,

> > > > Sunspot

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >