Re: Dementia and BPD

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathnbrit,

Welcome to the Group.

I'm so sorry you are going through this stress and anguish RE your dad's

self-destructive behaviors RE personality disorder, alcoholism and dementia.

One of the key traits of borderline pd is " fear of abandonment " , so its likely

that a spouse with bpd will NOT cope well with the real, physical abandonment of

their spouse's death.

After my non-bpd dad died, my bpd mother (or " nada " ) became extremely attached

to her neighbor lady, very emotionally dependent on her (and hostile towards the

woman's husband!) so much so that the couple ended up moving away. Then my

nada started demanding that my Sister spend more and more of her free time with

nada, and yet nada was so very critical of Sister whenever Sister was with her,

that my Sister started becoming quite severely depressed and went into therapy.

(Which turned out to be a godsend for Sister, she found a therapist who was

experienced with treating the adult children of bpd parents, was understanding

and compassionate RE Sister's situation and really helped Sister a lot.)

(It does seem that those with bpd drive *other people*, particularly their

family members, into therapy, for the most part.)

To answer your question, it just isn't possible for me or others at the Group

(or for you) to figure out the source of your dad's paranoid behaviors; that's

something only a psychiatrist can determine.

Its true that (according to the DSM-IV) one of the 9 diagnostic traits for

borderline pd is " transient paranoid ideation and dissociative episodes due to

stress " . Its also possible for an individual to have more than one mental

illness going on at the same time, that's called a " co-morbidity. " My own bpd

mother/ " nada " was pretty paranoid and had fixed delusions for her whole life.

She is deceased now, so there's no way to know whether she just had an

extra-large double-scoop of " transient' bpd paranoia, or whether it was

something else, like co-morbid paranoid personality disorder, or even

schizophrenia, or ...? Who knows?

No matter what is causing your dad's negative, destructive, paranoid behaviors I

hope that you will not let your dad's behaviors have a negative impact on you,

meaning that I hope that you don't feel like you have somehow caused your dad to

be the way he is, and you don't feel responsible for managing his feelings for

him, and do not feel responsible for rescuing him as though you are his " mommy " .

Sometimes, all the adult child of an out-of-control parent can do is be

supportive from a safe distance.

In my own mother's case, as long as my bpd mother was just barely functioning

well enough to care for herself, neither my Sister nor I could compel her to do

anything to seek help for herself.

It was only after mother began actively hallucinating and became belligerent

with the police that anything COULD be done to get my mother the supervised care

she needed. When mother became hostile and violent with the police they took

her in for an involuntary 72-hour hold and evaluation, and at that point mother

received a formal diagnosis of senile dementia, was declared a danger to herself

and to others and no longer capable of taking care of herself. (It was clear

that my mother's hallucinations were causing her to do things that were

dangerous to herself and others; her paranoia and delusional thinking worsened

and it made her become physically violent.) So my Sister received legal

guardianship /custody of our mother, and she had our mother relocated from the

apartment she'd been living in alone, into a residential care home with an

Alzheimer's wing.

Its just not an easy ride when a parent has a personality disorder, then

develops some form of dementia on top of it. My heart goes out to you and your

family.

-Annie

>

> Hi,

> I'm new to this group. My dad has BPD. Not officially diagnosed by a

psychiatrist since he won't go. But the neuologist who did his 5-hour

neuro/psych eval for his " memory issues " was pretty sure he does after 30 yars

of doing evals.

>

> Mom died 18 months ago and he has gotten more out of control. He was drinking

to the point of ending up in the ER so the docs took his license away. He won't

allow anyone to help with his meds though we know he does not take them

correctly.

>

> He has always been paranoid, distrustful, verbally and emotionally abusive,

manipulative, etc. Now he has been diagnosed with alcohol dementia. He hasn't

had a drink in a year since his license was taken away and no one will buy it

for him.

>

> My question is this: Beyond his almost non-existent short term memory, how do

you know if the increasing paranoia and overall craziness is the BPD still and

not dementia? Since he won't go for a full psych eval, we can't get a handle on

the distinction.

>

> It's been a hellish year and a half since my mom died and the family is

completely at our wits end.

>

> Thank you.

>

[Guest guest]

Kath! I really feel for you. That sounds rough.

Annie, no offense but it's kind of hilarious your mother's neighbor had to

move away. What a world!

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 4:05 PM, anuria67854 anuria-67854@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> Hi Kathnbrit,

> Welcome to the Group.

>

> I'm so sorry you are going through this stress and anguish RE your dad's

> self-destructive behaviors RE personality disorder, alcoholism and

> dementia.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Millicent,

I guess it could seem hilarious if you're not going through it (or haven't gone

through it) but from my point of view it wasn't even remotely funny, it was sad

and embarrassing.

The neighbors were sweet people and the husband had been a good friend to my

dad, and the wife had been friends with my nada.

The neighbor lady was becoming gradually but progressively more physically ill

with what turned out to be a terminal illness, and she just couldn't take my

nada's increasingly frequent, demanding and clingy presence, after my dad died.

Nada would go over there every day, demanding more and more attention from this

poor, ill neighbor lady; plus, nada had developed a fixed delusion that her

friend's sweet husband was " the enemy " . I knew all too well how nasty my nada

could be when she'd decided that you were " all bad " , and I felt both sad and

embarrassed that she was subjecting these nice people to her paranoid,

delusional, hostile behaviors. ( I learned most of this from my Sister, who was

still in close contact with our nada at the time.)

Neither Sister nor I were surprised when we learned that the couple had decided

to sell their home. Their decision to move wasn't entirely due to my nada but

I'm sure she was a factor in their decision.

In retrospect, I'm pretty confident in believing that my dad had been a

stabilizing influence on my nada; he'd been the " sponge " who had just " absorbed "

the brunt of most of her demanding, critical, negative behaviors after Sister

and I had left home. Without my dad there 24/7 (they were both retired) I'm

guessing that the shock of being entirely alone all the time for the first time

in her life, must have exacerbated my nada's bpd abandonment fears, and

possibly that was also the beginning of her decline into dementia.

Yet, nada refused to move into a retirement community after dad died, or even to

get a room-mate, as Sister and I both kept urging her to do. We both felt that

our mother would not do well at all on her own all the time and needed to be

with people, but nada refused to consider a retirement community or a house-mate

as an option. She wanted her own place, and ended up selling her house and

moving into an apartment (with Sister's help). Nada constantly complained about

and criticized everything Sister did for her while at the same time (in

complete contradiction) kept wheedling and whining for Sister to invite nada to

live with her at her house, and at the same time nada would often tell me that

I ought to relocate to her area and live with her in a condo.

But our nada did manage to take care of herself OK in her own apartment for

about 8 years after dad died, and then she became increasingly bpd and less

functional, her memory started going, she began demonstrating increased paranoia

and delusional thinking, and finally she began actively hallucinating.

Its just a really, really sad thing, that someone who was apparently pretty

severely mentally ill her whole life was nevertheless able to function well

enough that she could " skim under the radar " in public, and yet do so much

damage to her kids and to her husband in private.

-Annie

>

> Kath! I really feel for you. That sounds rough.

>

> Annie, no offense but it's kind of hilarious your mother's neighbor had to

> move away. What a world!

[Guest guest]

You're right that's very sad! I'm listening to Gift of Fear now.

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 9:46 PM, anuria67854 anuria-67854@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> Hi Millicent,

>

> I guess it could seem hilarious if you're not going through it (or haven't

> gone through it) but from my point of view it wasn't even remotely funny,

> it was sad and embarrassing.

>

> The neighbors were sweet people and the husband had been a good friend to

> my dad, and the wife had been friends with my nada.

>

> The neighbor lady was becoming gradually but progressively more physically

> ill with what turned out to be a terminal illness, and she just couldn't

> take my nada's increasingly frequent, demanding and clingy presence, after

> my dad died.

>

> Nada would go over there every day, demanding more and more attention from

> this poor, ill neighbor lady; plus, nada had developed a fixed delusion

> that her friend's sweet husband was " the enemy " . I knew all too well how

> nasty my nada could be when she'd decided that you were " all bad " , and I

> felt both sad and embarrassed that she was subjecting these nice people to

> her paranoid, delusional, hostile behaviors. ( I learned most of this from

> my Sister, who was still in close contact with our nada at the time.)

>

> Neither Sister nor I were surprised when we learned that the couple had

> decided to sell their home. Their decision to move wasn't entirely due to

> my nada but I'm sure she was a factor in their decision.

>

> In retrospect, I'm pretty confident in believing that my dad had been a

> stabilizing influence on my nada; he'd been the " sponge " who had just

> " absorbed " the brunt of most of her demanding, critical, negative behaviors

> after Sister and I had left home. Without my dad there 24/7 (they were both

> retired) I'm guessing that the shock of being entirely alone all the time

> for the first time in her life, must have exacerbated my nada's bpd

> abandonment fears, and possibly that was also the beginning of her decline

> into dementia.

>

> Yet, nada refused to move into a retirement community after dad died, or

> even to get a room-mate, as Sister and I both kept urging her to do. We

> both felt that our mother would not do well at all on her own all the time

> and needed to be with people, but nada refused to consider a retirement

> community or a house-mate as an option. She wanted her own place, and ended

> up selling her house and moving into an apartment (with Sister's help).

> Nada constantly complained about and criticized everything Sister did for

> her while at the same time (in complete contradiction) kept wheedling and

> whining for Sister to invite nada to live with her at her house, and at the

> same time nada would often tell me that I ought to relocate to her area and

> live with her in a condo.

>

> But our nada did manage to take care of herself OK in her own apartment

> for about 8 years after dad died, and then she became increasingly bpd and

> less functional, her memory started going, she began demonstrating

> increased paranoia and delusional thinking, and finally she began actively

> hallucinating.

>

> Its just a really, really sad thing, that someone who was apparently

> pretty severely mentally ill her whole life was nevertheless able to

> function well enough that she could " skim under the radar " in public, and

> yet do so much damage to her kids and to her husband in private.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > Kath! I really feel for you. That sounds rough.

> >

> > Annie, no offense but it's kind of hilarious your mother's neighbor had

> to

> > move away. What a world!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

So glad you're here in the group. It's amazingly supportive and informative.

I'm in a similar position with my nada. She's now 84, my Dad died a little over

4 years ago and as her only child (sort of, not counting the son she dumped

years ago) my husband and I have done what we can to help her. At first I didn't

know she was BPD. When a counselor recommended a book for us to read, all the

pieces fell into place. We're still learning how to help but not be used and

abused. It does get better.

I'm not sure we as non-professionals can tell what is dementia and what is BPD.

I do think the advancing age just magnifies their already bad behavior. My nada

is more critical than ever. I see dementia in terms of not knowing what day it

is or even what time of day. She cannot understand her mail, finances, bills,

etc. Those are clearly things she used to handle 20 years ago but can't now. The

paranoia I'm not sure of. She's always talked about how hateful people are to

her, how rotten everyone is. But now it's a constant fear combined with it.

She's always talking about people going through her backyard every night,

walking on her roof. She refuses to believe it might be a raccoon. She misplaces

things and then insists someone is coming into her house (locked and alarmed) to

move things around just to be mean to her. That's more like dementia.

Whatever is going on, it's hard to listen to it. I make noncommittal comments,

ask questions and just let her rant. Her mental problems are way beyond my

ability to fix. All I can do is try to keep her safe to some degree. Like your

dad, she doesn't take her medications properly, doesn't eat enough. But I've

become rather accustomed to the idea that she will probably die soon and in a

way, that will be a relief for us all. She will be free from her misery and I

will be free from her emotional abuse.

>

> Hi,

> I'm new to this group. My dad has BPD. Not officially diagnosed by a

psychiatrist since he won't go. But the neuologist who did his 5-hour

neuro/psych eval for his " memory issues " was pretty sure he does after 30 yars

of doing evals.

>

> Mom died 18 months ago and he has gotten more out of control. He was drinking

to the point of ending up in the ER so the docs took his license away. He won't

allow anyone to help with his meds though we know he does not take them

correctly.

>

> He has always been paranoid, distrustful, verbally and emotionally abusive,

manipulative, etc. Now he has been diagnosed with alcohol dementia. He hasn't

had a drink in a year since his license was taken away and no one will buy it

for him.

>

> My question is this: Beyond his almost non-existent short term memory, how do

you know if the increasing paranoia and overall craziness is the BPD still and

not dementia? Since he won't go for a full psych eval, we can't get a handle on

the distinction.

>

> It's been a hellish year and a half since my mom died and the family is

completely at our wits end.

>

> Thank you.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks to everyone for your kind and supportive responses. Onward!

Kathnbrit

> >

> > Hi,

> > I'm new to this group. My dad has BPD. Not officially diagnosed by a

psychiatrist since he won't go. But the neuologist who did his 5-hour

neuro/psych eval for his " memory issues " was pretty sure he does after 30 yars

of doing evals.

> >

> > Mom died 18 months ago and he has gotten more out of control. He was

drinking to the point of ending up in the ER so the docs took his license away.

He won't allow anyone to help with his meds though we know he does not take them

correctly.

> >

> > He has always been paranoid, distrustful, verbally and emotionally abusive,

manipulative, etc. Now he has been diagnosed with alcohol dementia. He hasn't

had a drink in a year since his license was taken away and no one will buy it

for him.

> >

> > My question is this: Beyond his almost non-existent short term memory, how

do you know if the increasing paranoia and overall craziness is the BPD still

and not dementia? Since he won't go for a full psych eval, we can't get a handle

on the distinction.

> >

> > It's been a hellish year and a half since my mom died and the family is

completely at our wits end.

> >

> > Thank you.

> >

>