Thanksgiving Lie

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I'm spending Thanksgiving with my Nada's family (My aunts, cousins, etc..) this

is the family that my Nada does not speak with except for one of her sisters. I

had lost contact with the family as well for about 10 years until last year I

reconnected with them. Which pretty much ruined the relationship with Nada and

me since she felt as if I betrayed her by talking with my family.

This past summer Nada and I went NC and then when I tried to talk to her again

she wouldn't be reasoned with and basically kicked me out of her life. Yet in a

few weeks we were talking again. That was some crazy emotional roller coaster.

During that time my Aunt invited me to Thanksgiving with them so I accepted.

Well I don't want to tell Nada that I'm with them because I'm scared that I will

loose Nada again, we will start another huge fight and my aunt will get involved

aka in trouble with Nada. I also wanted Nada and myself to have a drama free

Thanksgiving. I wanted Nada to be happy on Thanksgiving.

So because of my fear of Nada I'v webbed this lie that I'm still celebrating at

my home, which means I can't post anything on FB which makes me feel like a

secret.

I'm loving spending time with my family and getting to know each other all again

but at the same time this lie has been eating at me for days now, I dream about,

I'm constantly thinking about it.

More than likely Nada will find out that I lied to her. But do I tell her that

I lied to her before than and explain that I was scared of how she would react,

that I was trying to protect her and our relationship? Or should I just keep

the lie going, is it really hurting anyone?

Isn't sad that I even have to lie about spending time with my family. I know if

my Nada finds out she'll see this as a betrayal to her.

Thanks!

Ponnie!

[Guest guest]

I don't know what will work best for you, but I will share that while my nada

was still alive and when I was still in contact with her, I discovered that I

needed to lie to her about my true arrival and departure times when I'd travel

across country to visit her.

The reason I needed to do this was to avoid triggering nada into feelings of

jealousy, resentment and/or abandonment so I didn't feel guilty about deceiving

her.

In earlier years, when I was honest and told my nada that I was also planning to

spend some days visiting friends or my Sister while I was there, nada would

pout and whine and complain like a spoiled 2-year-old the whole time I was with

her and effectively ruin the time that we had together.

So, I started lying about when exactly I was arriving, and/or when exactly I was

departing; as far as nada was concerned, I was only there for a few days

exclusively to visit her and stay with her. That feeling of specialness or

exclusivity (or, possibly, the idea that I had no friends or relatives that

liked me enough to want to visit with me or have me stay with them) apparently

made my nada happy.

After I started this practice, then nada never knew that I was also spending a

few days with Sister at her home, or with friends on each visit, and what she

didn't know didn't upset her and make her miserable (which she in turn would

inflict on me, the source of her misery.)

I guess I was taking a risk that nada would somehow find out that I was lying to

her, but I trusted Sister and her son to not " tell " on me, and my friends

weren't in the habit of talking with my nada or she with them, so I felt safe.

Nada never did catch on, and I'm grateful for that.

Only you can decide what your risk factors are, and only you can choose what

would be the course of action you can best live with: total honestly (which will

upset nada) or lying (which will upset nada if she finds out about it.)

Whatever you decide, though, I hope you will be able to do it without feeling

misplaced, inappropriate guilt. You are not dealing with a rational, mentally

healthy person, so the " normal " rules of " normal " interpersonal relationships

are not in play; manage the situation in whatever way feels best to you.

I hope that helps.

-Annie

>

> Hi,

>

> I'm spending Thanksgiving with my Nada's family (My aunts, cousins, etc..)

this is the family that my Nada does not speak with except for one of her

sisters. I had lost contact with the family as well for about 10 years until

last year I reconnected with them. Which pretty much ruined the relationship

with Nada and me since she felt as if I betrayed her by talking with my family.

>

> This past summer Nada and I went NC and then when I tried to talk to her again

she wouldn't be reasoned with and basically kicked me out of her life. Yet in a

few weeks we were talking again. That was some crazy emotional roller coaster.

During that time my Aunt invited me to Thanksgiving with them so I accepted.

>

> Well I don't want to tell Nada that I'm with them because I'm scared that I

will loose Nada again, we will start another huge fight and my aunt will get

involved aka in trouble with Nada. I also wanted Nada and myself to have a

drama free Thanksgiving. I wanted Nada to be happy on Thanksgiving.

>

> So because of my fear of Nada I'v webbed this lie that I'm still celebrating

at my home, which means I can't post anything on FB which makes me feel like a

secret.

>

> I'm loving spending time with my family and getting to know each other all

again but at the same time this lie has been eating at me for days now, I dream

about, I'm constantly thinking about it.

>

> More than likely Nada will find out that I lied to her. But do I tell her

that I lied to her before than and explain that I was scared of how she would

react, that I was trying to protect her and our relationship? Or should I just

keep the lie going, is it really hurting anyone?

>

> Isn't sad that I even have to lie about spending time with my family. I know

if my Nada finds out she'll see this as a betrayal to her.

>

> Thanks!

>

> Ponnie!

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Annie--Gosh, this is eerily similar to a point I just made in my journal this

morning. (I quote the relevant part of your message below.) I was remembering

how every holiday event/visit had to be *used by nada for her purposes--and,

when it came to me, that purpose was to 'prove' me the black sheep. So, since

my nada cared about being liked, pretty, 'desirable' (especially by the opposite

sex), and popular, and also social 'queen', (especially of the family), she

would try and use every holiday to prove I was the opposite of those things.

Concurrently, she would try and use every holiday to prove that my split good

sister WAS all of those things. She was living out her extremes of self-love

and self-hate with sister and me.

So you say you were not allowed to stay with anyone else because your nada liked

the idea of noone else having you. That was exactly what my nada did. I was

not allowed to stay with sister, cousins, friends; any SOs I had were highly

discouraged from attending. Even before age 30, I was supposed to be the

'spinster', the unpopular librarian-type (no offense because librarians are cool

but they were trying to stigmatize me negatively because I was smart, any way

they could). At holidays my sister received public extravagant gifts while I

did not; she was lavished with praise and praise for whichever boyfriend she

had; she was pushed towards cousisns as their social 'queen' while I (honestly!)

was told to go read, or go play alone. Every holiday, was USED for this, was

used to prove my place as the black sheep, the family outcast, with nada at the

helm and everybody participating--either actively, like this one aunt I DESPISE

to this day--or by default.

As long as my nada is alive, she will try to use holidays this way. And even if

she were to decide to split me good one year (not likely), it would have to be

at the expense of another close family member, and it would also mean she was

trying to 'merge' with me, and would be more likely to try and touch me

inappropriately just like when I was little. I was just thinking of this, this

morning. How unfortunate it is. If I ever do want to break NC and attend

family events, I know that nada would fight with all she has to try and do the

splitting thing. Holidays are like being in the car, or being at a public event

like a wedding/funeral--you are trapped, and nada is compelled to try and get

all eyes on her and manipulate/harm you in whatever way feels best for her.

It's against human dignity, and even if I could rise above it and just NOT

believe it, I still don't think I should be forced to participate in it. Ever.

>

> .

>

>

> In earlier years, when I was honest and told my nada that I was also planning

to spend some days visiting friends or my Sister while I was there, nada would

pout and whine and complain like a spoiled 2-year-old the whole time I was with

her and effectively ruin the time that we had together.

>

> So, I started lying about when exactly I was arriving, and/or when exactly I

was departing; as far as nada was concerned, I was only there for a few days

exclusively to visit her and stay with her. That feeling of specialness or

exclusivity (or, possibly, the idea that I had no friends or relatives that

liked me enough to want to visit with me or have me stay with them) apparently

made my nada happy.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, Thank you for sharing and for your advice. It makes me feel better

knowing you also had to lie to have a good time with family and friends. And I

know what you mean about Nada only wanting to spend time with you and you only

with her. My nada got extremely jealous once when I went out with my friends

(Like the one and only time I did that). I understand where you're coming from.

I'm glad you found something that works for you and for Nada, especially so you

can continue to have relationships with your family and friends. It's true we're

not dealing with normal rational people, and unfortunately I thing we have to do

stuff like this to keep everyone happy. It works in one way but in another way

it's kind of sad and a little depressing because I just want everything to be

normal, even though I know it can never be.

Charlotte, I'm so sorry your Nada treated you like that during the holidays.

That's is so wrong. I hope you understand that it wasn't your fault and you

should never have to feel like the black sheep.

It seems like Nada's get worse around the holiday's for some reason.

Thanks for the advice and sharing!

> >

> > .

> >

> >

> > In earlier years, when I was honest and told my nada that I was also

planning to spend some days visiting friends or my Sister while I was there,

nada would pout and whine and complain like a spoiled 2-year-old the whole time

I was with her and effectively ruin the time that we had together.

> >

> > So, I started lying about when exactly I was arriving, and/or when exactly I

was departing; as far as nada was concerned, I was only there for a few days

exclusively to visit her and stay with her. That feeling of specialness or

exclusivity (or, possibly, the idea that I had no friends or relatives that

liked me enough to want to visit with me or have me stay with them) apparently

made my nada happy.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Any theories on why they get worse this time of year?

> **

>

>

> Annie, Thank you for sharing and for your advice. It makes me feel better

> knowing you also had to lie to have a good time with family and friends.

> And I know what you mean about Nada only wanting to spend time with you and

> you only with her. My nada got extremely jealous once when I went out with

> my friends (Like the one and only time I did that). I understand where

> you're coming from. I'm glad you found something that works for you and for

> Nada, especially so you can continue to have relationships with your family

> and friends. It's true we're not dealing with normal rational people, and

> unfortunately I thing we have to do stuff like this to keep everyone happy.

> It works in one way but in another way it's kind of sad and a little

> depressing because I just want everything to be normal, even though I know

> it can never be.

>

> Charlotte, I'm so sorry your Nada treated you like that during the

> holidays. That's is so wrong. I hope you understand that it wasn't your

> fault and you should never have to feel like the black sheep.

>

> It seems like Nada's get worse around the holiday's for some reason.

>

> Thanks for the advice and sharing!

>

>

> > >

> > > .

> > >

> > >

> > > In earlier years, when I was honest and told my nada that I was also

> planning to spend some days visiting friends or my Sister while I was

> there, nada would pout and whine and complain like a spoiled 2-year-old the

> whole time I was with her and effectively ruin the time that we had

> together.

> > >

> > > So, I started lying about when exactly I was arriving, and/or when

> exactly I was departing; as far as nada was concerned, I was only there for

> a few days exclusively to visit her and stay with her. That feeling of

> specialness or exclusivity (or, possibly, the idea that I had no friends or

> relatives that liked me enough to want to visit with me or have me stay

> with them) apparently made my nada happy.

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Millicent Kunstler <

millicentkunstler@...> wrote:

> Any theories on why they get worse this time of year?

>

My guess is that it plays heavily on their basic insecurity and lack of a

solid sense of self. They lap up all the images of how " real families " do

the Holidays, and two things happen:

1) Any slight or misperceived " betrayal " is regarded as much more hurtful

during the Holiday season than it is during non-Holiday times, because

everyone is supposed to love each other so much more intensely and often

during the Holidays (we're told), so any failure in this area on our parts

is seen as twice as horrendous and unbearable as it is during non-Holiday

times. This makes splitting happen much more frequently and violently.

2) They buy into the notion of the " perfect family Holiday " in all other

regards as well and if anyone fails to measure up or does anything

unexpected or " out of place " during the Holiday, they have RUINED THE

HOLIDAY FOR EVERYONE!!!! RUINED IT, JUST RUINED IT!! And the emotional

regulation dysfunction goes on overload. This is probably more applicable

to Nadas like mine who are also obsessive-compulsive and will rage out of

control if the Holiday isn't " just right. "

And of course there is the general stress and distraction of the season,

both of which tend to reduce the attention span and impulse control of even

non-BPDs. Take a BPD with poor impulse control to begin with, add on

Holiday stress and busy-ness plus cognitive load (too much to pay attention

to, all at once), tack on a little bit of the nagging worry that their

Holidays are not " good enough " because of everyone else's failures, and/or

that they don't feel as joyous as the commercials and billboards and TV

specials insist that they should, and...well, it's a perfect recipe for a

BPD-style freak-out, I think.

Just my two cents on the idea.

-- Jen H.

[Guest guest]

Good calls. I see them spinning and going nuts . That's really great insight .

The media hype is really over the top. I want to see none of it.

> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Millicent Kunstler <

> millicentkunstler@...> wrote:

>

> > Any theories on why they get worse this time of year?

> >

>

> My guess is that it plays heavily on their basic insecurity and lack of a

> solid sense of self. They lap up all the images of how " real families " do

> the Holidays, and two things happen:

>

> 1) Any slight or misperceived " betrayal " is regarded as much more hurtful

> during the Holiday season than it is during non-Holiday times, because

> everyone is supposed to love each other so much more intensely and often

> during the Holidays (we're told), so any failure in this area on our parts

> is seen as twice as horrendous and unbearable as it is during non-Holiday

> times. This makes splitting happen much more frequently and violently.

>

> 2) They buy into the notion of the " perfect family Holiday " in all other

> regards as well and if anyone fails to measure up or does anything

> unexpected or " out of place " during the Holiday, they have RUINED THE

> HOLIDAY FOR EVERYONE!!!! RUINED IT, JUST RUINED IT!! And the emotional

> regulation dysfunction goes on overload. This is probably more applicable

> to Nadas like mine who are also obsessive-compulsive and will rage out of

> control if the Holiday isn't " just right. "

>

> And of course there is the general stress and distraction of the season,

> both of which tend to reduce the attention span and impulse control of even

> non-BPDs. Take a BPD with poor impulse control to begin with, add on

> Holiday stress and busy-ness plus cognitive load (too much to pay attention

> to, all at once), tack on a little bit of the nagging worry that their

> Holidays are not " good enough " because of everyone else's failures, and/or

> that they don't feel as joyous as the commercials and billboards and TV

> specials insist that they should, and...well, it's a perfect recipe for a

> BPD-style freak-out, I think.

>

> Just my two cents on the idea.

>

> -- Jen H.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree, those are some very good points. My nada always compares what

other families do to what we do, and she definitely wants it all to be prefect.

And because nothing is ever perfect there's always a fight every holiday or

birthday. It can be very stressful.

Very insightful!

> >

> > > Any theories on why they get worse this time of year?

> > >

> >

> > My guess is that it plays heavily on their basic insecurity and lack of a

> > solid sense of self. They lap up all the images of how " real families " do

> > the Holidays, and two things happen:

> >

> > 1) Any slight or misperceived " betrayal " is regarded as much more hurtful

> > during the Holiday season than it is during non-Holiday times, because

> > everyone is supposed to love each other so much more intensely and often

> > during the Holidays (we're told), so any failure in this area on our parts

> > is seen as twice as horrendous and unbearable as it is during non-Holiday

> > times. This makes splitting happen much more frequently and violently.

> >

> > 2) They buy into the notion of the " perfect family Holiday " in all other

> > regards as well and if anyone fails to measure up or does anything

> > unexpected or " out of place " during the Holiday, they have RUINED THE

> > HOLIDAY FOR EVERYONE!!!! RUINED IT, JUST RUINED IT!! And the emotional

> > regulation dysfunction goes on overload. This is probably more applicable

> > to Nadas like mine who are also obsessive-compulsive and will rage out of

> > control if the Holiday isn't " just right. "

> >

> > And of course there is the general stress and distraction of the season,

> > both of which tend to reduce the attention span and impulse control of even

> > non-BPDs. Take a BPD with poor impulse control to begin with, add on

> > Holiday stress and busy-ness plus cognitive load (too much to pay attention

> > to, all at once), tack on a little bit of the nagging worry that their

> > Holidays are not " good enough " because of everyone else's failures, and/or

> > that they don't feel as joyous as the commercials and billboards and TV

> > specials insist that they should, and...well, it's a perfect recipe for a

> > BPD-style freak-out, I think.

> >

> > Just my two cents on the idea.

> >

> > -- Jen H.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I think that the major events of life: births, deaths, marriages, holidays,

milestone birthdays or anniversaries, graduations, etc., trigger the bpd

person's fears (abandonment, loss of control) and needs (to be the center of

attention and admiration, to seem " perfect " ).

Its not just the holidays, its any event, really.

I remember the first time I decided that I needed to just get away from nada

even if it meant lying to her; I was in my late 40's.

During one of my Christmas visits, nada had made plans for all of us to drive

over to visit one of our family friends, a neighbor we'd had when Sister and I

were growing up, whose daughter had recently adopted a little baby from eastern

Europe. For some unexplained reason nada decided at the very last minute that

she didn't want to go and she didn't want the rest of us to go, either. We were

to stay home with nada.

I was bewildered, felt that it was rude to back out at the last minute and I

wanted to see the baby, and I said, " Mom, I don't understand why you now don't

want to go; you're the one who wanted to do this, and you're not telling us why

the sudden change of plans, but I would like very much to go, so I will. What

would you like me to say when they ask about you? " Nada didn't reply but

stomped into her bedroom, slammed the door and began crying loudly. So I said

to her door, " OK; well, I guess I'll just say that you're not feeling well.

So, Sister and Nephew, if you want to come with me, we need to leave now. Are

you sure you don't want to go, mom?... OK, so, we'll be back by 10 or so. See

you later. " Sister, Nephew and I went, puzzling the whole way there about what

could be eating mom? We had a great time visiting these old friends and seeing

the darling little baby, just at the

walking-by-bracing-against-the-sofa-cushions age, and she was entranced by my

nephew and wanted his attention. So cute!

When we got back, nada was still in her room, but not crying. She was rather

icy and monosyllabic. I asked her if she'd had anything to eat, offered to

make her something if she was hungry, told her we had a great time and that she

was missed.

I described the visit, what we ate, the baby, what we talked about. Nada sat

there in her bed glaring, and at one point she turned her focus on my Nephew/

her Grandson, and said something truly ugly to him. I think it went past him

(he was paying more attention to the TV than anything else) but the nasty smirk

on nada's face and the insinuating tone of her voice as she said it shocked me,

and something in me snapped. I was enraged at nada. She had chosen to attack

my Nephew instead of me, for some reason. And back then, my only response to my

anger was to swallow it, just squelch it, and I left the room.

By the next morning I'd decided to cut my visit short. I knew that if I stayed

I might really lose it and erupt at nada, and I didn't want to do that. I

didn't want to be a screaming rageaholic like nada. So I was just polite, and

calm, and I told nada that I'd been mistaken about my departure date, and my

plane left around noon that day and I needed to leave. And I did leave, but I

went to Sister's house for the last couple of days of my vacation.

I have to admit that it felt good to, well, " turn the tables " : I controlled my

own rage reaction, took control and decided to leave early even if it meant

lying to my bpd mother.

-Annie

>

> Any theories on why they get worse this time of year?

[Guest guest]

Annie-

A quick thought about controlling the rage. I have been thinking about this a

lot lately. It has always irritated me that my Nada couldn't edit herself. She

just HAD to rage or lash out with those little comments, like your Nada and your

nephew. It is so selfish. Sometimes I get angry and for a second, I want to rage

like Nada taught me. It would feel good to blow steam-BUT then I think, no way,

I don't want to act like her. I calm myself and think rationally. BPD temper

tantrums are not only stupid, but they are an extremely selfish act in

themselves.

I know this is part of the PD, but I just don't understand how they cannot see

this fact.

> >

> > Any theories on why they get worse this time of year?

>

[Guest guest]

I think the fact that you and I and our fellow KOs here have more ability to

self-regulate and control our emotions and our reactions is a great indicator

that we " dodged the bpd bullet. "

Although I think I still have some psychological damage/injuries (still have

some lingering ptsd symptoms) I believe that neither my Sister nor I inherited

whatever those predisposing genetic factors are that (in combination with an

invalidating environment) result in bpd. Thank God.

And, just to set the record straight, my nephew didn't/doesn't have bpd either.

When nada aimed the ugly comment at him, he seemed oblivious to it. He was just

a young teen at the time and I don't think the zinger nada aimed at him even

landed; he'd tuned her out. I heard it, it made ME angry, but if my nephew

heard it he didn't respond at all, he just kept watching the TV.

-Annie

> > >

> > > Any theories on why they get worse this time of year?

> >

>