Guest guest Posted November 27, 2012 Report Share Posted November 27, 2012 Hi there, I'm new to this board and found it while reading " Stop Walking on Eggshells " . I'm still trying to figure out exactly what is going on with the BPD person in my life, but I'm pretty sure that BPD is present, along with histrionics, narcissism and hypochondria. Now I'm wondering if someone else in our family is also exhibiting signs of these issues or if they have bi-polar. I know that many signs, attributes and characteristics overlap. Anyway, over Thanksgiving, the primary BPD blurted out a very private, very serious issue from her past and I am wondering how to process this information. I have to ask, what is a NADA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:08 PM, thejazziestjess birdgirljess@...>wrote: > ** > > > Hi there, > > I'm new to this board and found it while reading " Stop Walking on > Eggshells " . I'm still trying to figure out exactly what is going on with > the BPD person in my life, but I'm pretty sure that BPD is present, along > with histrionics, narcissism and hypochondria. Now I'm wondering if someone > else in our family is also exhibiting signs of these issues or if they have > bi-polar. I know that many signs, attributes and characteristics overlap. > Anyway, over Thanksgiving, the primary BPD blurted out a very private, very > serious issue from her past and I am wondering how to process this > information. > > I have to ask, what is a NADA? > Well, the easy question first: A " nada " is a BPD and/or NPD mother, who is " nada mother " ( " Not a mother. " ) The equivalent for a father is " Fada " . I'm not positive, but I think " Fada " was actually coined first (someone wanted a way to talk about their father without actually using the word " father " since it seemed to give the individual in question entirely too much legitimacy, was it?). " Nada " came afterward but it was such a perfect fit that it quickly caught on, and since BPD is diagnosed far more often in women than men you see a lot more discussion of " nadas " here than " fadas " . As for the very private, very serious issue: I don't think you've given us enough info to know how to proceed here. Are we talking about something where criminal charges might be involved or warranted, with the BPD as either perpetrator or victim? (A rape? Child abuse?) Or is it just that you want to know if there's a way to figure out if the BPD is telling the truth, because whatever the issue was, you think it will affect your dealings with this person? Or are you saying you feel sorry for the BPD and are wondering if you should forgive the terrible behavior on the grounds of whatever the issue is? If there's anything more you can tell us about the situation while staying in your comfort zone it might help us figure out what kind of advice would be most useful to you. A quick word on Borderline versus Bipolar: While they can often look pretty similar (wild mood swings), based on the discussions I've had with bipolars and the interactions with my own nada, I think I've identified three main differences: *1) Reactivity to external events.* The mood swings of bipolars are relatively unaffected by external events. If a bipolar is manic, you can tell them that their best friend got hit by a car and they might just go, " Oh, drat, we were going to get together next weekend, " and then go back to partying or gambling or whatever. If the bipolar is depressed, you can tell them that they won the lottery and they might say, " So what? My life is always going to suck anyway. " Their moods are generated by their neurological imbalance (internal), so external events don't change their mood much as a rule. Borderlines, on the other hand, are the exact opposite -- their wild mood swings are driven by external events, which are often real, but are generally blown hugely out of proportion or simply willfully misinterpreted. They might take a small slight and blow it up in their minds until you are the most evil person ever to live, but they are responding to something they see happening externally (or think they see happening.) Similarly, they may take a sign of mild affection to mean that you are wildly in love with them and will be with them forever, and get elated -- again, they are responding to a real external event, but just overreacting or misinterpreting. Borderlines are marked by their extreme emotional sensitivity to tiny external events (or their negative interpretation of neutral events), which is definitely not the case with the average bipolar. *2) Length and suddenness of onset of mood swings. * Bipolars tend to swing moods over relatively long periods of time -- generally at least a week to as long as several months in one phase, followed by a similarly long time in the other phase. And the switchover from one phase to another doesn't happen instantaneously, but more gradually, over several days to a week. Borderlines, on the other hand, will swing wildly within hours or minutes --- elated at noon, enraged at 2 pm, and completely calm at 3 pm. They can swing several times in one day and can go from a great mood to a terrible mood in the drop of a hat, often to the bewilderment of anyone around them at the time. (They are for some reason particularly known for blowing up into seemingly insane rages, and then an hour later acting like nothing whatsoever just happened. Which might not be so bad except they usually expect everyone else to pretend like nothing bad just happened as well...) Also, I think that Borderlines have a more erratic swing pattern -- bipolars tend to go " up-down-up-down, " basically, whereas a borderline can go " up - down - enraged - sideways - up - up higher - down way low " . Borderlines seem to be more unpredictable -- I would guess, again, because they are reacting to external events, not driven by a biological mood switch. *3) Effects of medication. * Bipolars can be helped by the right medication regimen, usually. As far as I know, there are no medications currently known to have a positive effect on Borderlines (unless you count knocking them out flat with a sedative or something....) Here's an important thing to keep in mind: Treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder is NOT COVERED by most insurance. Personality disorders are " Axis II " in the DSM and are generally not thought to be treatable, so they are not covered. Treatment for Bipolar generally IS (if the insurance is halfway decent.) Bipolar is " Axis I " in the DSM, along with unipolar depression and schizophrenia. These problems are regarded as primarily biological in origin and therefore treatable. This causes quite a few doctors to see patients who are clearly BPD and diagnose them as " bipolar " on the grounds that hey, well, maybe they ARE a little bipolar, the meds probably won't harm them, and with the insurance coverage they may be able to get some access to some talk therapy, which in a few cases does help borderlines if they are receptive to it (though most aren't.) So from what I've read, there's a fair chunk of diagnosed " bipolars " out there who aren't actually bipolar and never were -- they're BPD, but they've been given a " covered " diagnosis in the hope of helping them. I hope some of that may be helpful. And welcome to the group. -- Jen H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Thank you so much for the response, clarifications and details of signs. I would say that my mother is probably a high functioning BPD. She swings not just in a span of a few hours, but in one conversation. I'm her best friend, then I " always talk to her as if I hate her guts " , then we are best friends again by the time we hang up. Luckily, I live three hours away and so my physical interactions with her are limited. But, as I have been distanced by her geographically, and have been seeing a therapist, reading and doing my own introspection, I've come to see how radical, illogical, irrational, and downright ridiculous her behavior is. I'm not trying to be disrespectful or insulting when describing it as ridiculous, but the wide swings in just one conversation are really wild. If I told someone that " always they talk to me like they hate my guts " , we would have to be at a pretty volatile place and probably a point of no return in the relationship, but she ended this conversation suggesting we throw a joint shower for my sis-in-law. It was truly like going on a roller coaster ride. As for the private matter she blurted out, we were discussing an unrelated matter and my husband and I were trying to illuminate and help with her strong reactions and tense relationship with my brother. I should know from therapy and reading that this is BPD 101, you can't illuminate or illustrate or advise someone who is always right. (I am mentally smacking myself for trying) I'm not sure what precipitated the comment, because I was listening to my husband and she was talking over him in almost an " aside/loud stage whisper/letting you in on this/besting you and your experiences kind of way. If that makes any sense. My mother is very dramatic and said, while violently pointing to herself for emphasis: " I, I was sexually abused by my father! " Ok, so he is deceased since '96 and my relationship with him was far from grandfatherly, in fact it was very distant. I've heard all the tales of woe from mom and about how verbally inappropriate her parents were, how her mother made her scrub floors when she was 4 yrs old, etc. but she's never come out and said this. My adopted father and I have discussed it in the past (there's crazy history there) and he has hinted that he thinks she was abused and that her sister almost said as much. It's hard to know what to do with that information and I kind of blocked that she said it until we got back home and I asked hubby if he heard her and he said, yeah, but he pretended like he didn't because, well, it was awkward. My husband is not effusive or showy at all. He wasn't sure what made her say that either, except that we were talking about how verbally abusive my brother is to her. I also brushed past it and kind of ignored it. Now, my mother is very intelligent, although many would argue that an intelligent woman wouldn't make the decisions she does or the repeat mistakes she's made, but shouldn't a progressive, tolerant (preaches it at least), intelligent woman who used to he a cop realize that someone who has been sexually abused and by a family member no less, needs or could benefit from therapy? Every person in my immediate family, including the most resistant, least likely (my dad), has had therapy except her. And she acts like we are pariahs for it. Anyway, I guess this will be quite the topic next time I see the shrink, but I'm guessing its a little odd. Maybe more odd that I kind of ignored it. It's just that I don't know what to believe anymore. I read about narcissistic mothers and she has lots of those qualities and from what I've read about BPD, she is high functioning. But her major issues are extreme reactions to things; expecting the worst; taking things personally that have absolutely nothing to do with her; an air of grandiosity and extreme judgement of others; superiority affectations followed by declarations of unworthiness; lying about major things, but acting pious and self righteous and as if she is a model of civility and clean living; manipulation; guilt trips; jealousy of others; punishing others for their good fortune and hypochondria. Oh yeah and justifying socially inappropriate or unacceptable actions in the most mind-boggling ways; never apologizing except in the context of, " we'll I'm sorry if I'm not.... " And arguing with dead people. Just kidding, but we always say she would. Whatcha think? > On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:08 PM, thejazziestjess birdgirljess@...>wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Hi there, > > > > I'm new to this board and found it while reading " Stop Walking on > > Eggshells " . I'm still trying to figure out exactly what is going on with > > the BPD person in my life, but I'm pretty sure that BPD is present, along > > with histrionics, narcissism and hypochondria. Now I'm wondering if someone > > else in our family is also exhibiting signs of these issues or if they have > > bi-polar. I know that many signs, attributes and characteristics overlap. > > Anyway, over Thanksgiving, the primary BPD blurted out a very private, very > > serious issue from her past and I am wondering how to process this > > information. > > > > I have to ask, what is a NADA? > > > > Well, the easy question first: A " nada " is a BPD and/or NPD mother, who is > " nada mother " ( " Not a mother. " ) The equivalent for a father is " Fada " . > I'm not positive, but I think " Fada " was actually coined first (someone > wanted a way to talk about their father without actually using the word > " father " since it seemed to give the individual in question entirely too > much legitimacy, was it?). " Nada " came afterward but it was such a perfect > fit that it quickly caught on, and since BPD is diagnosed far more often in > women than men you see a lot more discussion of " nadas " here than " fadas " . > > As for the very private, very serious issue: I don't think you've given us > enough info to know how to proceed here. Are we talking about something > where criminal charges might be involved or warranted, with the BPD as > either perpetrator or victim? (A rape? Child abuse?) Or is it just that > you want to know if there's a way to figure out if the BPD is telling the > truth, because whatever the issue was, you think it will affect your > dealings with this person? Or are you saying you feel sorry for the BPD and > are wondering if you should forgive the terrible behavior on the grounds of > whatever the issue is? > > If there's anything more you can tell us about the situation while staying > in your comfort zone it might help us figure out what kind of advice would > be most useful to you. > > A quick word on Borderline versus Bipolar: While they can often look > pretty similar (wild mood swings), based on the discussions I've had with > bipolars and the interactions with my own nada, I think I've identified > three main differences: > > *1) Reactivity to external events.* > > The mood swings of bipolars are relatively unaffected by external events. > If a bipolar is manic, you can tell them that their best friend got hit by > a car and they might just go, " Oh, drat, we were going to get together next > weekend, " and then go back to partying or gambling or whatever. If the > bipolar is depressed, you can tell them that they won the lottery and they > might say, " So what? My life is always going to suck anyway. " Their moods > are generated by their neurological imbalance (internal), so external > events don't change their mood much as a rule. > > Borderlines, on the other hand, are the exact opposite -- their wild mood > swings are driven by external events, which are often real, but are > generally blown hugely out of proportion or simply willfully > misinterpreted. They might take a small slight and blow it up in their > minds until you are the most evil person ever to live, but they are > responding to something they see happening externally (or think they see > happening.) Similarly, they may take a sign of mild affection to mean that > you are wildly in love with them and will be with them forever, and get > elated -- again, they are responding to a real external event, but just > overreacting or misinterpreting. > > Borderlines are marked by their extreme emotional sensitivity to tiny > external events (or their negative interpretation of neutral events), which > is definitely not the case with the average bipolar. > > *2) Length and suddenness of onset of mood swings. * > > Bipolars tend to swing moods over relatively long periods of time -- > generally at least a week to as long as several months in one phase, > followed by a similarly long time in the other phase. And the switchover > from one phase to another doesn't happen instantaneously, but more > gradually, over several days to a week. > > Borderlines, on the other hand, will swing wildly within hours or minutes > --- elated at noon, enraged at 2 pm, and completely calm at 3 pm. They can > swing several times in one day and can go from a great mood to a terrible > mood in the drop of a hat, often to the bewilderment of anyone around them > at the time. (They are for some reason particularly known for blowing up > into seemingly insane rages, and then an hour later acting like nothing > whatsoever just happened. Which might not be so bad except they usually > expect everyone else to pretend like nothing bad just happened as well...) > Also, I think that Borderlines have a more erratic swing pattern -- > bipolars tend to go " up-down-up-down, " basically, whereas a borderline can > go " up - down - enraged - sideways - up - up higher - down way low " . > Borderlines seem to be more unpredictable -- I would guess, again, because > they are reacting to external events, not driven by a biological mood > switch. > > *3) Effects of medication. * > > Bipolars can be helped by the right medication regimen, usually. As far as > I know, there are no medications currently known to have a positive effect > on Borderlines (unless you count knocking them out flat with a sedative or > something....) > > Here's an important thing to keep in mind: > > Treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder is NOT COVERED by most > insurance. Personality disorders are " Axis II " in the DSM and are generally > not thought to be treatable, so they are not covered. > > Treatment for Bipolar generally IS (if the insurance is halfway decent.) > Bipolar is " Axis I " in the DSM, along with unipolar depression and > schizophrenia. These problems are regarded as primarily biological in > origin and therefore treatable. > > This causes quite a few doctors to see patients who are clearly BPD and > diagnose them as " bipolar " on the grounds that hey, well, maybe they ARE a > little bipolar, the meds probably won't harm them, and with the insurance > coverage they may be able to get some access to some talk therapy, which in > a few cases does help borderlines if they are receptive to it (though most > aren't.) So from what I've read, there's a fair chunk of diagnosed > " bipolars " out there who aren't actually bipolar and never were -- they're > BPD, but they've been given a " covered " diagnosis in the hope of helping > them. > > I hope some of that may be helpful. > > And welcome to the group. > > -- Jen H. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Hi again -- Yes, to me your mother sounds very much like a Borderline and not a Bipolar. (Caveat: I'm not a mental health professional (yet), although I'm studying up and working on getting into a psych graduate program for what that's worth.) The " It sounds like you really hate me -- let's plan a shower party! " is really, really typical borderline. The first book for the layman on BPD was called " I hate you! Don't leave me! " and while the book is rather outdated at this point (a lot more has been learned), the title is still very evocative of what living with a BPD is like. I wouldn't worry about sounding disrespectful and/or insulting about your Nada on this list -- no one here is going to tell you to " Honor thy mother " or anything foolish like that. Most of us curse our Nadas on a pretty regular basis (some of us feel sorry for them at the same time, but some of us don't.) In any case, there will be no finger-pointing or shaming of you for " treating your Nada badly, " provided you stop short of physical assault. The claim of " I was sexually abused! " is something to take note of, but you'll need to be a bit wary, and here's why. When BPD was first recognized and the symptoms described as a recognizable pattern, it was thought that nearly all BPDs had suffered severe physical and/or sexual abuse as children, and that this has " caused " them to become BPD. Later research showed that this idea was based on the claims of the BPD sufferers themselves, and a BPD is *never* a good person to go to for an objective view of " abuse " , as they are prone to regarding things like a mildly disapproving look as " abusive. " So when the claims of a number of the early BPDs who were studied were fact-checked with others who were present at the time, it came out that many of the abuse stories appeared to have been either grossly exaggerated or fabricated outright. Also, many BPDs excel at " playing the victim " and are willing to make up stuff to make themselves seem more victimized than they really are. This is probably because they just FEEL so victimized, but can't explain why (on some level they know that their over-reactivity isn't normal), so they feel compelled to make up horrible things that happened to them that will justify allowing them to continue to behave badly and cause everyone to cut them a lot of slack. That having been said, some BPDs were in fact abused, and you probably CAN turn a basically normal (or only slightly over-sensitive) kid into a raging BPD with sufficient amounts of physical/sexual/mental/emotional abuse. So I can't say you should reject your Mom's claim out of hand, particularly if there is corroborating evidence from other sources. However, given that your grandfather is dead, it's unclear what your Nada expected you to do or say about her claim. You are right that the thing for her would be therapy...but one of the most frustrating things about dealing with BPDs, particularly the high-functioning variety, is that getting them into therapy is essentially impossible. My whole family has tried multiple times (at least three, possibly four depending on how you count) to get my Nada into therapy. Each time, she'll go for a few sessions just to get us off her back, and then stop, claiming " It's a waste of time and money! Nothing's wrong with me, it's all YOU people! " It seems like most BPDs have a very unstable sense of " self " , a lousy central identity. Whether that's the emotional dysregulation doing it, or the lack of impulse control -- or whether the poor sense of self comes first and causes the other symptoms -- is very much debated. But because of this, many of them have a strongly phobic fear of admitting that the problem might be with them and also have real difficulty committing to making progress via therapy. Admitting that they might actually be causing their own problems is a horribly threatening thing to them, and most of them just can't stand the anxiety -- and of course, if you don't acknowledge you have a problem, you'll get nowhere in fixing it. Can't fix what's not broke. In some ways they are their own worst enemies. Their sense of self is too unstable for them to voluntarily work to change it, but if they don't work to change it, they'll never stabilize. It's a Catch-22. As in your family, everyone in my family has been in therapy EXCEPT Nada. I find that this is a pretty good sign that there's a BPD running amok -- everyone around them needs help but they are convinced they themselves are perfectly fine! And intelligence is no shield against this for them, either -- my Nada is very intelligent and quite accomplished, but her ability to process and manage data simply does not apply when it comes to managing her emotions. Emotional regulation and analytic thought happen in entirely different areas of the brain, and the emotional brain is much older and stronger than the analytical brain, particularly when it's dysregulated as in BPD. Haidt uses the image of " the elephant with the rider " to describe the dual nature of the human brain, with the emotional centers being the elephant (big and strong but only animal-smart) and the analytic centers being the rider (has a better view and can think and plan, but is very much weaker than the elephant and not capable of stopping said elephant if it goes on a rampage.) The intelligence of a BPD sufferer is riding on an elephant that is completely berserk a lot of the time -- there's no hope of controlling it. In any case, if your Nada won't get therapy to try and learn to cope with her past, there's nothing you can, or should, do about it. You have to just leave her alone to deal with her own choices in those areas. (I know, I know, this is easier said than done. It's taken me way too long to get over my own compulsion to try and forcibly fix my Nada, so I know how tough it is.) You are allowed to feel compassion for what she may have suffered without feeling like that entitles her to abuse you. You were never a part of what your grandfather did, and you do not have to bear the burden of your mother's rage and grief over her past. You do not owe that to her. (Healthy parents are generally horrified at the idea that their children should somehow take the parent's pain upon themselves as part of filial duty, but BPD parents seem to feel like their kids owe it to them to act as toxic emotion waste dumps because they just need it so badly, and their kids LOVE them, so why wouldn't the kids volunteer to be little emotional Superfund Sites?? UGH.) And the " justification " of really bad behavior is classic BPD too. My Nada is fond of saying things like, " I know I'm nosy, but... " and then asking a very inappropriate personal question, or " Everyone knows I have a bad temper! " (as if that makes raging out of control somehow okay) or " I'm just anal, you know that, " when her OCPD-ness is running rampant. Basically she seems to feel that if she acknowledges she is behaving badly, she doesn't actually have to STOP the behavior, because just acknowledging that it's bad means she's done her penance, I guess? I don't understand the " logic " that says " As long as I admit how nasty I'm being, I get to continue doing it! " -- but a lot of BPDs use it. I hear it as a sort of " You have to love me unconditionally, just as I am, no matter how badly I treat you because that's just WHO I AM! So get used to it! " I'm glad to hear you have a therapist who's helping you. Many of us find we need help untangling the warped emotional reality forced on us by our Nadas, and sometimes we pick up what we call " fleas " (as in, " You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas, " ), which are learned BPD-ish behaviors we pick up just because we're raised with someone who is emotionally out-of-control and we come to think of that as normal and how normal people interact, when it's not. -- Jen H. On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:06 PM, Rodgers birdgirljess@...>wrote: > ** > > > Thank you so much for the response, clarifications and details of signs. I > would say that my mother is probably a high functioning BPD. She swings not > just in a span of a few hours, but in one conversation. I'm her best > friend, then I " always talk to her as if I hate her guts " , then we are best > friends again by the time we hang up. Luckily, I live three hours away and > so my physical interactions with her are limited. But, as I have been > distanced by her geographically, and have been seeing a therapist, reading > and doing my own introspection, I've come to see how radical, illogical, > irrational, and downright ridiculous her behavior is. I'm not trying to be > disrespectful or insulting when describing it as ridiculous, but the wide > swings in just one conversation are really wild. If I told someone that > " always they talk to me like they hate my guts " , we would have to be at a > pretty volatile place and probably a point of no return in the > relationship, but she ended this conversation suggesting we throw a joint > shower for my sis-in-law. It was truly like going on a roller coaster ride. > > As for the private matter she blurted out, we were discussing an unrelated > matter and my husband and I were trying to illuminate and help with her > strong reactions and tense relationship with my brother. I should know from > therapy and reading that this is BPD 101, you can't illuminate or > illustrate or advise someone who is always right. (I am mentally smacking > myself for trying) I'm not sure what precipitated the comment, because I > was listening to my husband and she was talking over him in almost an > " aside/loud stage whisper/letting you in on this/besting you and your > experiences kind of way. If that makes any sense. My mother is very > dramatic and said, while violently pointing to herself for emphasis: " I, I > was sexually abused by my father! " Ok, so he is deceased since '96 and my > relationship with him was far from grandfatherly, in fact it was very > distant. I've heard all the tales of woe from mom and about how verbally > inappropriate her parents were, how her mother made her scrub floors when > she was 4 yrs old, etc. but she's never come out and said this. My adopted > father and I have discussed it in the past (there's crazy history there) > and he has hinted that he thinks she was abused and that her sister almost > said as much. It's hard to know what to do with that information and I kind > of blocked that she said it until we got back home and I asked hubby if he > heard her and he said, yeah, but he pretended like he didn't because, well, > it was awkward. My husband is not effusive or showy at all. He wasn't sure > what made her say that either, except that we were talking about how > verbally abusive my brother is to her. I also brushed past it and kind of > ignored it. > > Now, my mother is very intelligent, although many would argue that an > intelligent woman wouldn't make the decisions she does or the repeat > mistakes she's made, but shouldn't a progressive, tolerant (preaches it at > least), intelligent woman who used to he a cop realize that someone who has > been sexually abused and by a family member no less, needs or could benefit > from therapy? Every person in my immediate family, including the most > resistant, least likely (my dad), has had therapy except her. And she acts > like we are pariahs for it. > > Anyway, I guess this will be quite the topic next time I see the shrink, > but I'm guessing its a little odd. Maybe more odd that I kind of ignored > it. It's just that I don't know what to believe anymore. > > I read about narcissistic mothers and she has lots of those qualities and > from what I've read about BPD, she is high functioning. But her major > issues are extreme reactions to things; expecting the worst; taking things > personally that have absolutely nothing to do with her; an air of > grandiosity and extreme judgement of others; superiority affectations > followed by declarations of unworthiness; lying about major things, but > acting pious and self righteous and as if she is a model of civility and > clean living; manipulation; guilt trips; jealousy of others; punishing > others for their good fortune and hypochondria. Oh yeah and justifying > socially inappropriate or unacceptable actions in the most mind-boggling > ways; never apologizing except in the context of, " we'll I'm sorry if I'm > not.... " And arguing with dead people. Just kidding, but we always say she > would. > > Whatcha think? > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:08 PM, thejazziestjess birdgirljess@... > >wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > Hi there, > > > > > > I'm new to this board and found it while reading " Stop Walking on > > > Eggshells " . I'm still trying to figure out exactly what is going on > with > > > the BPD person in my life, but I'm pretty sure that BPD is present, > along > > > with histrionics, narcissism and hypochondria. Now I'm wondering if > someone > > > else in our family is also exhibiting signs of these issues or if they > have > > > bi-polar. I know that many signs, attributes and characteristics > overlap. > > > Anyway, over Thanksgiving, the primary BPD blurted out a very private, > very > > > serious issue from her past and I am wondering how to process this > > > information. > > > > > > I have to ask, what is a NADA? > > > > > > > Well, the easy question first: A " nada " is a BPD and/or NPD mother, who > is > > " nada mother " ( " Not a mother. " ) The equivalent for a father is " Fada " . > > I'm not positive, but I think " Fada " was actually coined first (someone > > wanted a way to talk about their father without actually using the word > > " father " since it seemed to give the individual in question entirely too > > much legitimacy, was it?). " Nada " came afterward but it was such a > perfect > > fit that it quickly caught on, and since BPD is diagnosed far more often > in > > women than men you see a lot more discussion of " nadas " here than > " fadas " . > > > > As for the very private, very serious issue: I don't think you've given > us > > enough info to know how to proceed here. Are we talking about something > > where criminal charges might be involved or warranted, with the BPD as > > either perpetrator or victim? (A rape? Child abuse?) Or is it just that > > you want to know if there's a way to figure out if the BPD is telling the > > truth, because whatever the issue was, you think it will affect your > > dealings with this person? Or are you saying you feel sorry for the BPD > and > > are wondering if you should forgive the terrible behavior on the grounds > of > > whatever the issue is? > > > > If there's anything more you can tell us about the situation while > staying > > in your comfort zone it might help us figure out what kind of advice > would > > be most useful to you. > > > > A quick word on Borderline versus Bipolar: While they can often look > > pretty similar (wild mood swings), based on the discussions I've had with > > bipolars and the interactions with my own nada, I think I've identified > > three main differences: > > > > *1) Reactivity to external events.* > > > > > The mood swings of bipolars are relatively unaffected by external events. > > If a bipolar is manic, you can tell them that their best friend got hit > by > > a car and they might just go, " Oh, drat, we were going to get together > next > > weekend, " and then go back to partying or gambling or whatever. If the > > bipolar is depressed, you can tell them that they won the lottery and > they > > might say, " So what? My life is always going to suck anyway. " Their moods > > are generated by their neurological imbalance (internal), so external > > events don't change their mood much as a rule. > > > > Borderlines, on the other hand, are the exact opposite -- their wild mood > > swings are driven by external events, which are often real, but are > > generally blown hugely out of proportion or simply willfully > > misinterpreted. They might take a small slight and blow it up in their > > minds until you are the most evil person ever to live, but they are > > responding to something they see happening externally (or think they see > > happening.) Similarly, they may take a sign of mild affection to mean > that > > you are wildly in love with them and will be with them forever, and get > > elated -- again, they are responding to a real external event, but just > > overreacting or misinterpreting. > > > > Borderlines are marked by their extreme emotional sensitivity to tiny > > external events (or their negative interpretation of neutral events), > which > > is definitely not the case with the average bipolar. > > > > *2) Length and suddenness of onset of mood swings. * > > > > > Bipolars tend to swing moods over relatively long periods of time -- > > generally at least a week to as long as several months in one phase, > > followed by a similarly long time in the other phase. And the switchover > > from one phase to another doesn't happen instantaneously, but more > > gradually, over several days to a week. > > > > Borderlines, on the other hand, will swing wildly within hours or minutes > > --- elated at noon, enraged at 2 pm, and completely calm at 3 pm. They > can > > swing several times in one day and can go from a great mood to a terrible > > mood in the drop of a hat, often to the bewilderment of anyone around > them > > at the time. (They are for some reason particularly known for blowing up > > into seemingly insane rages, and then an hour later acting like nothing > > whatsoever just happened. Which might not be so bad except they usually > > expect everyone else to pretend like nothing bad just happened as > well...) > > Also, I think that Borderlines have a more erratic swing pattern -- > > bipolars tend to go " up-down-up-down, " basically, whereas a borderline > can > > go " up - down - enraged - sideways - up - up higher - down way low " . > > Borderlines seem to be more unpredictable -- I would guess, again, > because > > they are reacting to external events, not driven by a biological mood > > switch. > > > > *3) Effects of medication. * > > > > > Bipolars can be helped by the right medication regimen, usually. As far > as > > I know, there are no medications currently known to have a positive > effect > > on Borderlines (unless you count knocking them out flat with a sedative > or > > something....) > > > > Here's an important thing to keep in mind: > > > > Treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder is NOT COVERED by most > > insurance. Personality disorders are " Axis II " in the DSM and are > generally > > not thought to be treatable, so they are not covered. > > > > Treatment for Bipolar generally IS (if the insurance is halfway decent.) > > Bipolar is " Axis I " in the DSM, along with unipolar depression and > > schizophrenia. These problems are regarded as primarily biological in > > origin and therefore treatable. > > > > This causes quite a few doctors to see patients who are clearly BPD and > > diagnose them as " bipolar " on the grounds that hey, well, maybe they ARE > a > > little bipolar, the meds probably won't harm them, and with the insurance > > coverage they may be able to get some access to some talk therapy, which > in > > a few cases does help borderlines if they are receptive to it (though > most > > aren't.) So from what I've read, there's a fair chunk of diagnosed > > " bipolars " out there who aren't actually bipolar and never were -- > they're > > BPD, but they've been given a " covered " diagnosis in the hope of helping > > them. > > > > I hope some of that may be helpful. > > > > And welcome to the group. > > > > -- Jen H. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Jen, that was an amazingly informative analysis. Thank you.... > Hi again -- > > Yes, to me your mother sounds very much like a Borderline and not a > Bipolar. (Caveat: I'm not a mental health professional (yet), although I'm > studying up and working on getting into a psych graduate program for what > that's worth.) The " It sounds like you really hate me -- let's plan a > shower party! " is really, really typical borderline. The first book for > the layman on BPD was called " I hate you! Don't leave me! " and while the > book is rather outdated at this point (a lot more has been learned), the > title is still very evocative of what living with a BPD is like. > > I wouldn't worry about sounding disrespectful and/or insulting about your > Nada on this list -- no one here is going to tell you to " Honor thy mother " > or anything foolish like that. Most of us curse our Nadas on a pretty > regular basis (some of us feel sorry for them at the same time, but some of > us don't.) In any case, there will be no finger-pointing or shaming of you > for " treating your Nada badly, " provided you stop short of physical > assault. > > The claim of " I was sexually abused! " is something to take note of, but > you'll need to be a bit wary, and here's why. When BPD was first > recognized and the symptoms described as a recognizable pattern, it was > thought that nearly all BPDs had suffered severe physical and/or sexual > abuse as children, and that this has " caused " them to become BPD. > > Later research showed that this idea was based on the claims of the BPD > sufferers themselves, and a BPD is *never* a good person to go to for an > objective view of " abuse " , as they are prone to regarding things like a > mildly disapproving look as " abusive. " So when the claims of a number of > the early BPDs who were studied were fact-checked with others who were > present at the time, it came out that many of the abuse stories appeared to > have been either grossly exaggerated or fabricated outright. > > Also, many BPDs excel at " playing the victim " and are willing to make up > stuff to make themselves seem more victimized than they really are. This is > probably because they just FEEL so victimized, but can't explain why (on > some level they know that their over-reactivity isn't normal), so they feel > compelled to make up horrible things that happened to them that will > justify allowing them to continue to behave badly and cause everyone to cut > them a lot of slack. > > That having been said, some BPDs were in fact abused, and you probably CAN > turn a basically normal (or only slightly over-sensitive) kid into a raging > BPD with sufficient amounts of physical/sexual/mental/emotional abuse. So > I can't say you should reject your Mom's claim out of hand, particularly if > there is corroborating evidence from other sources. > > However, given that your grandfather is dead, it's unclear what your Nada > expected you to do or say about her claim. You are right that the thing > for her would be therapy...but one of the most frustrating things about > dealing with BPDs, particularly the high-functioning variety, is that > getting them into therapy is essentially impossible. My whole family has > tried multiple times (at least three, possibly four depending on how you > count) to get my Nada into therapy. Each time, she'll go for a few sessions > just to get us off her back, and then stop, claiming " It's a waste of time > and money! Nothing's wrong with me, it's all YOU people! " It seems like > most BPDs have a very unstable sense of " self " , a lousy central identity. > Whether that's the emotional dysregulation doing it, or the lack of impulse > control -- or whether the poor sense of self comes first and causes the > other symptoms -- is very much debated. But because of this, many of them > have a strongly phobic fear of admitting that the problem might be with > them and also have real difficulty committing to making progress via > therapy. Admitting that they might actually be causing their own problems > is a horribly threatening thing to them, and most of them just can't stand > the anxiety -- and of course, if you don't acknowledge you have a problem, > you'll get nowhere in fixing it. Can't fix what's not broke. In some ways > they are their own worst enemies. Their sense of self is too unstable for > them to voluntarily work to change it, but if they don't work to change it, > they'll never stabilize. It's a Catch-22. > > As in your family, everyone in my family has been in therapy EXCEPT Nada. > I find that this is a pretty good sign that there's a BPD running amok -- > everyone around them needs help but they are convinced they themselves are > perfectly fine! > > And intelligence is no shield against this for them, either -- my Nada is > very intelligent and quite accomplished, but her ability to process and > manage data simply does not apply when it comes to managing her emotions. > Emotional regulation and analytic thought happen in entirely different > areas of the brain, and the emotional brain is much older and stronger than > the analytical brain, particularly when it's dysregulated as in BPD. > Haidt uses the image of " the elephant with the rider " to describe > the dual nature of the human brain, with the emotional centers being the > elephant (big and strong but only animal-smart) and the analytic centers > being the rider (has a better view and can think and plan, but is very much > weaker than the elephant and not capable of stopping said elephant if it > goes on a rampage.) The intelligence of a BPD sufferer is riding on an > elephant that is completely berserk a lot of the time -- there's no hope of > controlling it. > > In any case, if your Nada won't get therapy to try and learn to cope with > her past, there's nothing you can, or should, do about it. You have to just > leave her alone to deal with her own choices in those areas. (I know, I > know, this is easier said than done. It's taken me way too long to get over > my own compulsion to try and forcibly fix my Nada, so I know how tough it > is.) You are allowed to feel compassion for what she may have suffered > without feeling like that entitles her to abuse you. You were never a part > of what your grandfather did, and you do not have to bear the burden of > your mother's rage and grief over her past. You do not owe that to her. > (Healthy parents are generally horrified at the idea that their children > should somehow take the parent's pain upon themselves as part of filial > duty, but BPD parents seem to feel like their kids owe it to them to act as > toxic emotion waste dumps because they just need it so badly, and their > kids LOVE them, so why wouldn't the kids volunteer to be little emotional > Superfund Sites?? UGH.) > > And the " justification " of really bad behavior is classic BPD too. My Nada > is fond of saying things like, " I know I'm nosy, but... " and then asking a > very inappropriate personal question, or " Everyone knows I have a bad > temper! " (as if that makes raging out of control somehow okay) or " I'm just > anal, you know that, " when her OCPD-ness is running rampant. Basically she > seems to feel that if she acknowledges she is behaving badly, she doesn't > actually have to STOP the behavior, because just acknowledging that it's > bad means she's done her penance, I guess? I don't understand the " logic " > that says " As long as I admit how nasty I'm being, I get to continue doing > it! " -- but a lot of BPDs use it. I hear it as a sort of " You have to love > me unconditionally, just as I am, no matter how badly I treat you because > that's just WHO I AM! So get used to it! " > > I'm glad to hear you have a therapist who's helping you. Many of us find > we need help untangling the warped emotional reality forced on us by our > Nadas, and sometimes we pick up what we call " fleas " (as in, " You lie down > with dogs, you get up with fleas, " ), which are learned BPD-ish behaviors we > pick up just because we're raised with someone who is emotionally > out-of-control and we come to think of that as normal and how normal people > interact, when it's not. > > -- Jen H. > > > On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:06 PM, Rodgers birdgirljess@... > >wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Thank you so much for the response, clarifications and details of signs. > I > > would say that my mother is probably a high functioning BPD. She swings > not > > just in a span of a few hours, but in one conversation. I'm her best > > friend, then I " always talk to her as if I hate her guts " , then we are > best > > friends again by the time we hang up. Luckily, I live three hours away > and > > so my physical interactions with her are limited. But, as I have been > > distanced by her geographically, and have been seeing a therapist, > reading > > and doing my own introspection, I've come to see how radical, illogical, > > irrational, and downright ridiculous her behavior is. I'm not trying to > be > > disrespectful or insulting when describing it as ridiculous, but the wide > > swings in just one conversation are really wild. If I told someone that > > " always they talk to me like they hate my guts " , we would have to be at a > > pretty volatile place and probably a point of no return in the > > relationship, but she ended this conversation suggesting we throw a joint > > shower for my sis-in-law. It was truly like going on a roller coaster > ride. > > > > As for the private matter she blurted out, we were discussing an > unrelated > > matter and my husband and I were trying to illuminate and help with her > > strong reactions and tense relationship with my brother. I should know > from > > therapy and reading that this is BPD 101, you can't illuminate or > > illustrate or advise someone who is always right. (I am mentally smacking > > myself for trying) I'm not sure what precipitated the comment, because I > > was listening to my husband and she was talking over him in almost an > > " aside/loud stage whisper/letting you in on this/besting you and your > > experiences kind of way. If that makes any sense. My mother is very > > dramatic and said, while violently pointing to herself for emphasis: " I, > I > > was sexually abused by my father! " Ok, so he is deceased since '96 and my > > relationship with him was far from grandfatherly, in fact it was very > > distant. I've heard all the tales of woe from mom and about how verbally > > inappropriate her parents were, how her mother made her scrub floors when > > she was 4 yrs old, etc. but she's never come out and said this. My > adopted > > father and I have discussed it in the past (there's crazy history there) > > and he has hinted that he thinks she was abused and that her sister > almost > > said as much. It's hard to know what to do with that information and I > kind > > of blocked that she said it until we got back home and I asked hubby if > he > > heard her and he said, yeah, but he pretended like he didn't because, > well, > > it was awkward. My husband is not effusive or showy at all. He wasn't > sure > > what made her say that either, except that we were talking about how > > verbally abusive my brother is to her. I also brushed past it and kind of > > ignored it. > > > > Now, my mother is very intelligent, although many would argue that an > > intelligent woman wouldn't make the decisions she does or the repeat > > mistakes she's made, but shouldn't a progressive, tolerant (preaches it > at > > least), intelligent woman who used to he a cop realize that someone who > has > > been sexually abused and by a family member no less, needs or could > benefit > > from therapy? Every person in my immediate family, including the most > > resistant, least likely (my dad), has had therapy except her. And she > acts > > like we are pariahs for it. > > > > Anyway, I guess this will be quite the topic next time I see the shrink, > > but I'm guessing its a little odd. Maybe more odd that I kind of ignored > > it. It's just that I don't know what to believe anymore. > > > > I read about narcissistic mothers and she has lots of those qualities and > > from what I've read about BPD, she is high functioning. But her major > > issues are extreme reactions to things; expecting the worst; taking > things > > personally that have absolutely nothing to do with her; an air of > > grandiosity and extreme judgement of others; superiority affectations > > followed by declarations of unworthiness; lying about major things, but > > acting pious and self righteous and as if she is a model of civility and > > clean living; manipulation; guilt trips; jealousy of others; punishing > > others for their good fortune and hypochondria. Oh yeah and justifying > > socially inappropriate or unacceptable actions in the most mind-boggling > > ways; never apologizing except in the context of, " we'll I'm sorry if I'm > > not.... " And arguing with dead people. Just kidding, but we always say > she > > would. > > > > Whatcha think? > > > > > > On Nov 30, 2012, at 9:03 PM, Hawthorne jenh789@...> > wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:08 PM, thejazziestjess < > birdgirljess@... > > >wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi there, > > > > > > > > I'm new to this board and found it while reading " Stop Walking on > > > > Eggshells " . I'm still trying to figure out exactly what is going on > > with > > > > the BPD person in my life, but I'm pretty sure that BPD is present, > > along > > > > with histrionics, narcissism and hypochondria. Now I'm wondering if > > someone > > > > else in our family is also exhibiting signs of these issues or if > they > > have > > > > bi-polar. I know that many signs, attributes and characteristics > > overlap. > > > > Anyway, over Thanksgiving, the primary BPD blurted out a very > private, > > very > > > > serious issue from her past and I am wondering how to process this > > > > information. > > > > > > > > I have to ask, what is a NADA? > > > > > > > > > > Well, the easy question first: A " nada " is a BPD and/or NPD mother, who > > is > > > " nada mother " ( " Not a mother. " ) The equivalent for a father is " Fada " . > > > I'm not positive, but I think " Fada " was actually coined first (someone > > > wanted a way to talk about their father without actually using the word > > > " father " since it seemed to give the individual in question entirely > too > > > much legitimacy, was it?). " Nada " came afterward but it was such a > > perfect > > > fit that it quickly caught on, and since BPD is diagnosed far more > often > > in > > > women than men you see a lot more discussion of " nadas " here than > > " fadas " . > > > > > > As for the very private, very serious issue: I don't think you've given > > us > > > enough info to know how to proceed here. Are we talking about something > > > where criminal charges might be involved or warranted, with the BPD as > > > either perpetrator or victim? (A rape? Child abuse?) Or is it just that > > > you want to know if there's a way to figure out if the BPD is telling > the > > > truth, because whatever the issue was, you think it will affect your > > > dealings with this person? Or are you saying you feel sorry for the BPD > > and > > > are wondering if you should forgive the terrible behavior on the > grounds > > of > > > whatever the issue is? > > > > > > If there's anything more you can tell us about the situation while > > staying > > > in your comfort zone it might help us figure out what kind of advice > > would > > > be most useful to you. > > > > > > A quick word on Borderline versus Bipolar: While they can often look > > > pretty similar (wild mood swings), based on the discussions I've had > with > > > bipolars and the interactions with my own nada, I think I've identified > > > three main differences: > > > > > > *1) Reactivity to external events.* > > > > > > > > The mood swings of bipolars are relatively unaffected by external > events. > > > If a bipolar is manic, you can tell them that their best friend got hit > > by > > > a car and they might just go, " Oh, drat, we were going to get together > > next > > > weekend, " and then go back to partying or gambling or whatever. If the > > > bipolar is depressed, you can tell them that they won the lottery and > > they > > > might say, " So what? My life is always going to suck anyway. " Their > moods > > > are generated by their neurological imbalance (internal), so external > > > events don't change their mood much as a rule. > > > > > > Borderlines, on the other hand, are the exact opposite -- their wild > mood > > > swings are driven by external events, which are often real, but are > > > generally blown hugely out of proportion or simply willfully > > > misinterpreted. They might take a small slight and blow it up in their > > > minds until you are the most evil person ever to live, but they are > > > responding to something they see happening externally (or think they > see > > > happening.) Similarly, they may take a sign of mild affection to mean > > that > > > you are wildly in love with them and will be with them forever, and get > > > elated -- again, they are responding to a real external event, but just > > > overreacting or misinterpreting. > > > > > > Borderlines are marked by their extreme emotional sensitivity to tiny > > > external events (or their negative interpretation of neutral events), > > which > > > is definitely not the case with the average bipolar. > > > > > > *2) Length and suddenness of onset of mood swings. * > > > > > > > > Bipolars tend to swing moods over relatively long periods of time -- > > > generally at least a week to as long as several months in one phase, > > > followed by a similarly long time in the other phase. And the > switchover > > > from one phase to another doesn't happen instantaneously, but more > > > gradually, over several days to a week. > > > > > > Borderlines, on the other hand, will swing wildly within hours or > minutes > > > --- elated at noon, enraged at 2 pm, and completely calm at 3 pm. They > > can > > > swing several times in one day and can go from a great mood to a > terrible > > > mood in the drop of a hat, often to the bewilderment of anyone around > > them > > > at the time. (They are for some reason particularly known for blowing > up > > > into seemingly insane rages, and then an hour later acting like nothing > > > whatsoever just happened. Which might not be so bad except they usually > > > expect everyone else to pretend like nothing bad just happened as > > well...) > > > Also, I think that Borderlines have a more erratic swing pattern -- > > > bipolars tend to go " up-down-up-down, " basically, whereas a borderline > > can > > > go " up - down - enraged - sideways - up - up higher - down way low " . > > > Borderlines seem to be more unpredictable -- I would guess, again, > > because > > > they are reacting to external events, not driven by a biological mood > > > switch. > > > > > > *3) Effects of medication. * > > > > > > > > Bipolars can be helped by the right medication regimen, usually. As far > > as > > > I know, there are no medications currently known to have a positive > > effect > > > on Borderlines (unless you count knocking them out flat with a sedative > > or > > > something....) > > > > > > Here's an important thing to keep in mind: > > > > > > Treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder is NOT COVERED by most > > > insurance. Personality disorders are " Axis II " in the DSM and are > > generally > > > not thought to be treatable, so they are not covered. > > > > > > Treatment for Bipolar generally IS (if the insurance is halfway > decent.) > > > Bipolar is " Axis I " in the DSM, along with unipolar depression and > > > schizophrenia. These problems are regarded as primarily biological in > > > origin and therefore treatable. > > > > > > This causes quite a few doctors to see patients who are clearly BPD and > > > diagnose them as " bipolar " on the grounds that hey, well, maybe they > ARE > > a > > > little bipolar, the meds probably won't harm them, and with the > insurance > > > coverage they may be able to get some access to some talk therapy, > which > > in > > > a few cases does help borderlines if they are receptive to it (though > > most > > > aren't.) So from what I've read, there's a fair chunk of diagnosed > > > " bipolars " out there who aren't actually bipolar and never were -- > > they're > > > BPD, but they've been given a " covered " diagnosis in the hope of > helping > > > them. > > > > > > I hope some of that may be helpful. > > > > > > And welcome to the group. > > > > > > -- Jen H. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 .. . sounds like my nada! NPD/BPD/hypochondriac. . . .I'm no contact - I can't handle the roller coaster ride. Just like real ones, the motion just makes me sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 As a newcomer to this group, I have found this entire thread very helpful & informative. Thank you, Jen H. I have been comforted about all these shared stories, knowing that the behavior isn't personal. However, it breaks my heart to hear that solutions for the bpd are few, and therapy is probably not an option for them. But when I hear the reasons why the bpd won't go, it makes sense. I remain hopeful. In the meantime, I can focus on changing me, controlling my reactions and moving forward. Again, thank you Steve M. > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi there, > > > > > > > > I'm new to this board and found it while reading " Stop Walking on > > > > Eggshells " . I'm still trying to figure out exactly what is going on > > with > > > > the BPD person in my life, but I'm pretty sure that BPD is present, > > along > > > > with histrionics, narcissism and hypochondria. Now I'm wondering if > > someone > > > > else in our family is also exhibiting signs of these issues or if they > > have > > > > bi-polar. I know that many signs, attributes and characteristics > > overlap. > > > > Anyway, over Thanksgiving, the primary BPD blurted out a very private, > > very > > > > serious issue from her past and I am wondering how to process this > > > > information. > > > > > > > > I have to ask, what is a NADA? > > > > > > > > > > Well, the easy question first: A " nada " is a BPD and/or NPD mother, who > > is > > > " nada mother " ( " Not a mother. " ) The equivalent for a father is " Fada " . > > > I'm not positive, but I think " Fada " was actually coined first (someone > > > wanted a way to talk about their father without actually using the word > > > " father " since it seemed to give the individual in question entirely too > > > much legitimacy, was it?). " Nada " came afterward but it was such a > > perfect > > > fit that it quickly caught on, and since BPD is diagnosed far more often > > in > > > women than men you see a lot more discussion of " nadas " here than > > " fadas " . > > > > > > As for the very private, very serious issue: I don't think you've given > > us > > > enough info to know how to proceed here. Are we talking about something > > > where criminal charges might be involved or warranted, with the BPD as > > > either perpetrator or victim? (A rape? Child abuse?) Or is it just that > > > you want to know if there's a way to figure out if the BPD is telling the > > > truth, because whatever the issue was, you think it will affect your > > > dealings with this person? Or are you saying you feel sorry for the BPD > > and > > > are wondering if you should forgive the terrible behavior on the grounds > > of > > > whatever the issue is? > > > > > > If there's anything more you can tell us about the situation while > > staying > > > in your comfort zone it might help us figure out what kind of advice > > would > > > be most useful to you. > > > > > > A quick word on Borderline versus Bipolar: While they can often look > > > pretty similar (wild mood swings), based on the discussions I've had with > > > bipolars and the interactions with my own nada, I think I've identified > > > three main differences: > > > > > > *1) Reactivity to external events.* > > > > > > > > The mood swings of bipolars are relatively unaffected by external events. > > > If a bipolar is manic, you can tell them that their best friend got hit > > by > > > a car and they might just go, " Oh, drat, we were going to get together > > next > > > weekend, " and then go back to partying or gambling or whatever. If the > > > bipolar is depressed, you can tell them that they won the lottery and > > they > > > might say, " So what? My life is always going to suck anyway. " Their moods > > > are generated by their neurological imbalance (internal), so external > > > events don't change their mood much as a rule. > > > > > > Borderlines, on the other hand, are the exact opposite -- their wild mood > > > swings are driven by external events, which are often real, but are > > > generally blown hugely out of proportion or simply willfully > > > misinterpreted. They might take a small slight and blow it up in their > > > minds until you are the most evil person ever to live, but they are > > > responding to something they see happening externally (or think they see > > > happening.) Similarly, they may take a sign of mild affection to mean > > that > > > you are wildly in love with them and will be with them forever, and get > > > elated -- again, they are responding to a real external event, but just > > > overreacting or misinterpreting. > > > > > > Borderlines are marked by their extreme emotional sensitivity to tiny > > > external events (or their negative interpretation of neutral events), > > which > > > is definitely not the case with the average bipolar. > > > > > > *2) Length and suddenness of onset of mood swings. * > > > > > > > > Bipolars tend to swing moods over relatively long periods of time -- > > > generally at least a week to as long as several months in one phase, > > > followed by a similarly long time in the other phase. And the switchover > > > from one phase to another doesn't happen instantaneously, but more > > > gradually, over several days to a week. > > > > > > Borderlines, on the other hand, will swing wildly within hours or minutes > > > --- elated at noon, enraged at 2 pm, and completely calm at 3 pm. They > > can > > > swing several times in one day and can go from a great mood to a terrible > > > mood in the drop of a hat, often to the bewilderment of anyone around > > them > > > at the time. (They are for some reason particularly known for blowing up > > > into seemingly insane rages, and then an hour later acting like nothing > > > whatsoever just happened. Which might not be so bad except they usually > > > expect everyone else to pretend like nothing bad just happened as > > well...) > > > Also, I think that Borderlines have a more erratic swing pattern -- > > > bipolars tend to go " up-down-up-down, " basically, whereas a borderline > > can > > > go " up - down - enraged - sideways - up - up higher - down way low " . > > > Borderlines seem to be more unpredictable -- I would guess, again, > > because > > > they are reacting to external events, not driven by a biological mood > > > switch. > > > > > > *3) Effects of medication. * > > > > > > > > Bipolars can be helped by the right medication regimen, usually. As far > > as > > > I know, there are no medications currently known to have a positive > > effect > > > on Borderlines (unless you count knocking them out flat with a sedative > > or > > > something....) > > > > > > Here's an important thing to keep in mind: > > > > > > Treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder is NOT COVERED by most > > > insurance. Personality disorders are " Axis II " in the DSM and are > > generally > > > not thought to be treatable, so they are not covered. > > > > > > Treatment for Bipolar generally IS (if the insurance is halfway decent.) > > > Bipolar is " Axis I " in the DSM, along with unipolar depression and > > > schizophrenia. These problems are regarded as primarily biological in > > > origin and therefore treatable. > > > > > > This causes quite a few doctors to see patients who are clearly BPD and > > > diagnose them as " bipolar " on the grounds that hey, well, maybe they ARE > > a > > > little bipolar, the meds probably won't harm them, and with the insurance > > > coverage they may be able to get some access to some talk therapy, which > > in > > > a few cases does help borderlines if they are receptive to it (though > > most > > > aren't.) So from what I've read, there's a fair chunk of diagnosed > > > " bipolars " out there who aren't actually bipolar and never were -- > > they're > > > BPD, but they've been given a " covered " diagnosis in the hope of helping > > > them. > > > > > > I hope some of that may be helpful. > > > > > > And welcome to the group. > > > > > > -- Jen H. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 Jen, This was very helpful and I appreciate your taking so much time in helping me sort out what's going on. I think for me, I have become the fixer and the solution person in my family, as well as the switchboard operator and I tend to analyze my family's behaviors to the nth degree. My therapist has said that this desperate search to figure my mom out is my way of hoping to understand so I can accept, but that it won't lead to what my real underlying subconscious goal is and that is to change the situation or control it. I was shocked when she told me I was trying to control situations and people like my mother. Then she clarified, saying that my attempt to control the situation is to avoid the chaos I am predicting will ensue. As I read some of the other posters stories, as well as examples given in the books I've read, I see that my mother's beahvior is much more subtle in its abusiveness. She doesn't come right out and express her faults, like, " you know I have a temper " , because she would never admit a failing. She provided for us and did motherly things like make birthday cakes, buy and wrap Christmas presents beautifully, bake and cook for us and others, and come to plays and concerts and activities. BUT, I realize now more than ever that there are underlying motives to her nice gestures. She wants recognition and most of what she has done for us has been presented as sacrifices she has made for us, right down to marrying my adopted father so I would have a good father figure, even though she was in turn miserable for years because of that decision. She throws things in our face in not so subtle ways, too, like, " I paid for those teeth, don;t use them to rip open that bag " and " I didn't have a new dress for years, but I always made sure you all had beautiful clothes, including the beautiful ones I made you. " And when justifying her affair with her sister's common law husband (of 17 years), she told me that she deserved happiness and that I should support her because she had supported all of my decisions, even when my father was adamantly opposed to someone I was dating (and rightfully so, I see now) and she went to bat for me and let me be my own person. After pulling my teenage brother into this affair ( I was away at college), he was in turn brainwashed and told me mom deserved happiness and that I was ungrateful for not supporting her after she had paid for my college (not quite factually accurate) and bought all those Christmas presents over the years and I was a selfish slut. I can't imagine my brother pulled all of that out on his own and that he came up with those justifications. A few years ago, the tables were turned on him when she had a secret affair with his roommate who was my age, 36 years her junior. She said to me, " you found someone, your father found someone and your brother, don't I deserve to be happy? " When the affair was revealed, she told my brother she wanted his support and approval. He wouldn't give it to her. Now who's the bad guy? He told her he would accept that it was, but would never approve, embrace or support it. My mother is very envious of what I have and opportunities in my life, which boggles my mind, because I can see that choices and decisions are what get you where you are, not just blind circumstance. I've always defended her to others, noting her background, that she was never taken seriously by her parents, that they were concerned with keeping up with the ' and putting on airs and that seems to be very important to my mother as well. She can get really nasty but all with a smile. Nothing really terrible, just things like: " Do you like my shoes? See you're not the only one who can have cute shoes " or " Oh I like your new hair (shocking), it compliments your skin tone. I never liked the blonde, I always thought it made you look washed out. " I had that hair for three years. And what's funny is last time I went dark all over, she called it " interesting " and " different " and I called her out that she obviously didn't like it. She said, " no I just like the blonde highlights in it. " WTH? With her, I get whiplash. In one of the conversations I was having with her about the roommate affair, she said two different things. I mentioned that he didn't have a degree or a very good job and wasn't she ready to date someone with a little more substance and financial stability and maybe even a college degree and she said, " I don't have a degree, why should I expect that? " She has since gone and gotten a business degree. I said, " yes, mother you do, you deserve someone who can whisk you away for the week-end, someone you can be proud to have on your arm and someone you don't have to explain. " then she went on with the " all of you found someone, I deserve happiness, too " . One time she even said, defensively that she deserved it and then when I brought up that she can;t just do whatever she wants and damn the consequences, especially if it hurts family members and I referred to the brother-in-law affair and how it estranged the entire family and effected my brother and me and she said, " I've never thought I deserved to be happy. I don't deserve it " . I asked her if she was going to bring roommate boyfriend to the office Christmas party and have him mingle with the attorneys and what she would say when they asked how they met. She said, " I would tell them the truth, that he sold me a bike " . I countered, oh come on, get real. Well, that is the truth, he did sell me a bike and besides " it's nobody's business anyway " . Then I asked if she was going to take this black gentleman to the party the way he was or if she would ask him to remove his piercings, nose ring and wear something other than a fake gas station attendant shirt. She actually laughed and said, " I'm sure he wouldn't wear the bull ring " . Like we were a couple of girlfriends chatting about our sexual escapades over cosmos. The really scary thing is I am starting to see signs of BPD or bi-polar in my brother. He has no respect for my mother and I harbor lots of resentment toward her as well, but I am working through it and getting to a place where I can say, " oh, well, that's just mom. " this past holiday, I defended her to my brother who had acted like a complete butt-hole and told him he hurt her feelings and he threw in my face, " Oh, I had to listen to you complain when mom didn't call you for almost a year and now I can't complain about her? " It wans't just that I thought his behavior was wrong, everyone did. Ok, so here is an email from her from a recent exchange. I had accidentally dropped a watch in a bag of clothes I was taking to my brother and his wife, who just had a baby. I was sick over what I thought was a lost watch, a gift from my husband and substantially valuable. I asked brother to look in the bags of stuff I brought him and he said he did. I tore the house apart, etc. etc. Well, five days later, he looks in the bag and lo and behold, there it is. I ask him to ship it to me, insured, etc. and he immediately shirks it off onto his wife who is home with a 3wk. old. Then he emails me at 1am and asks me if I can get mom to do it. So she has to drive across town on her lunch hour to pick it up and ship it. First I get the " woe-is me, I rarely take lunch, so it should be ok that I leave, although I will probably get yelled at anyway (by her bosses) and you're lucky I am even available today, we start jury selection, but the other two ladies are covering and also I was supposed to be going to the eye dr. again to have my lesion (I want to name her lesion by now) looked at so I can be approved for cataract surgery before the end of the year and I'm still paying for the last CT, etc. etc. but I will do this for you " . Meanwhile I am trying to get over being floored that my brother can't do this one little measly thing I have asked him to do and I am trying not to put it in the context of " I've done so much for him, I can't believe this " And my husband thinks it's outrageous he wouldn't do it, no questions asked. So I send my mom an email saying I can't believe this is such a hassle and I'm getting so much pushback and that I shouldn't be made to feel guilty for having nice things and I feel like brother is being cavalier and selfish and she responds: " I am certainly not trying to make you feel guilty because you have nice things. I am glad that you found someone to love that can also provide for you and that you get to travel and do things that you like and explore new possibilities and your potential. If anything, I wish I were in your shoes as that is how I imagined my life would be when I was young. It didn't turn out that way - but that's life. But since it is too late for me, I'm happy that you have those opportunities and that security. " This is such a typical response for her. She didn't talk to me for nearly 8 months after I went on a dive vacation and has frequently made comments about how she isn't included on trips, etc. Anyway, that just cracked me up, but of course, the guilt got the best of me and I had a catered lunch sent to her office for her trouble. > Hi again -- > > Yes, to me your mother sounds very much like a Borderline and not a > Bipolar. (Caveat: I'm not a mental health professional (yet), although I'm > studying up and working on getting into a psych graduate program for what > that's worth.) The " It sounds like you really hate me -- let's plan a > shower party! " is really, really typical borderline. The first book for > the layman on BPD was called " I hate you! Don't leave me! " and while the > book is rather outdated at this point (a lot more has been learned), the > title is still very evocative of what living with a BPD is like. > > I wouldn't worry about sounding disrespectful and/or insulting about your > Nada on this list -- no one here is going to tell you to " Honor thy mother " > or anything foolish like that. Most of us curse our Nadas on a pretty > regular basis (some of us feel sorry for them at the same time, but some of > us don't.) In any case, there will be no finger-pointing or shaming of you > for " treating your Nada badly, " provided you stop short of physical > assault. > > The claim of " I was sexually abused! " is something to take note of, but > you'll need to be a bit wary, and here's why. When BPD was first > recognized and the symptoms described as a recognizable pattern, it was > thought that nearly all BPDs had suffered severe physical and/or sexual > abuse as children, and that this has " caused " them to become BPD. > > Later research showed that this idea was based on the claims of the BPD > sufferers themselves, and a BPD is *never* a good person to go to for an > objective view of " abuse " , as they are prone to regarding things like a > mildly disapproving look as " abusive. " So when the claims of a number of > the early BPDs who were studied were fact-checked with others who were > present at the time, it came out that many of the abuse stories appeared to > have been either grossly exaggerated or fabricated outright. > > Also, many BPDs excel at " playing the victim " and are willing to make up > stuff to make themselves seem more victimized than they really are. This is > probably because they just FEEL so victimized, but can't explain why (on > some level they know that their over-reactivity isn't normal), so they feel > compelled to make up horrible things that happened to them that will > justify allowing them to continue to behave badly and cause everyone to cut > them a lot of slack. > > That having been said, some BPDs were in fact abused, and you probably CAN > turn a basically normal (or only slightly over-sensitive) kid into a raging > BPD with sufficient amounts of physical/sexual/mental/emotional abuse. So > I can't say you should reject your Mom's claim out of hand, particularly if > there is corroborating evidence from other sources. > > However, given that your grandfather is dead, it's unclear what your Nada > expected you to do or say about her claim. You are right that the thing > for her would be therapy...but one of the most frustrating things about > dealing with BPDs, particularly the high-functioning variety, is that > getting them into therapy is essentially impossible. My whole family has > tried multiple times (at least three, possibly four depending on how you > count) to get my Nada into therapy. Each time, she'll go for a few sessions > just to get us off her back, and then stop, claiming " It's a waste of time > and money! Nothing's wrong with me, it's all YOU people! " It seems like > most BPDs have a very unstable sense of " self " , a lousy central identity. > Whether that's the emotional dysregulation doing it, or the lack of impulse > control -- or whether the poor sense of self comes first and causes the > other symptoms -- is very much debated. But because of this, many of them > have a strongly phobic fear of admitting that the problem might be with > them and also have real difficulty committing to making progress via > therapy. Admitting that they might actually be causing their own problems > is a horribly threatening thing to them, and most of them just can't stand > the anxiety -- and of course, if you don't acknowledge you have a problem, > you'll get nowhere in fixing it. Can't fix what's not broke. In some ways > they are their own worst enemies. Their sense of self is too unstable for > them to voluntarily work to change it, but if they don't work to change it, > they'll never stabilize. It's a Catch-22. > > As in your family, everyone in my family has been in therapy EXCEPT Nada. > I find that this is a pretty good sign that there's a BPD running amok -- > everyone around them needs help but they are convinced they themselves are > perfectly fine! > > And intelligence is no shield against this for them, either -- my Nada is > very intelligent and quite accomplished, but her ability to process and > manage data simply does not apply when it comes to managing her emotions. > Emotional regulation and analytic thought happen in entirely different > areas of the brain, and the emotional brain is much older and stronger than > the analytical brain, particularly when it's dysregulated as in BPD. > Haidt uses the image of " the elephant with the rider " to describe > the dual nature of the human brain, with the emotional centers being the > elephant (big and strong but only animal-smart) and the analytic centers > being the rider (has a better view and can think and plan, but is very much > weaker than the elephant and not capable of stopping said elephant if it > goes on a rampage.) The intelligence of a BPD sufferer is riding on an > elephant that is completely berserk a lot of the time -- there's no hope of > controlling it. > > In any case, if your Nada won't get therapy to try and learn to cope with > her past, there's nothing you can, or should, do about it. You have to just > leave her alone to deal with her own choices in those areas. (I know, I > know, this is easier said than done. It's taken me way too long to get over > my own compulsion to try and forcibly fix my Nada, so I know how tough it > is.) You are allowed to feel compassion for what she may have suffered > without feeling like that entitles her to abuse you. You were never a part > of what your grandfather did, and you do not have to bear the burden of > your mother's rage and grief over her past. You do not owe that to her. > (Healthy parents are generally horrified at the idea that their children > should somehow take the parent's pain upon themselves as part of filial > duty, but BPD parents seem to feel like their kids owe it to them to act as > toxic emotion waste dumps because they just need it so badly, and their > kids LOVE them, so why wouldn't the kids volunteer to be little emotional > Superfund Sites?? UGH.) > > And the " justification " of really bad behavior is classic BPD too. My Nada > is fond of saying things like, " I know I'm nosy, but... " and then asking a > very inappropriate personal question, or " Everyone knows I have a bad > temper! " (as if that makes raging out of control somehow okay) or " I'm just > anal, you know that, " when her OCPD-ness is running rampant. Basically she > seems to feel that if she acknowledges she is behaving badly, she doesn't > actually have to STOP the behavior, because just acknowledging that it's > bad means she's done her penance, I guess? I don't understand the " logic " > that says " As long as I admit how nasty I'm being, I get to continue doing > it! " -- but a lot of BPDs use it. I hear it as a sort of " You have to love > me unconditionally, just as I am, no matter how badly I treat you because > that's just WHO I AM! So get used to it! " > > I'm glad to hear you have a therapist who's helping you. Many of us find > we need help untangling the warped emotional reality forced on us by our > Nadas, and sometimes we pick up what we call " fleas " (as in, " You lie down > with dogs, you get up with fleas, " ), which are learned BPD-ish behaviors we > pick up just because we're raised with someone who is emotionally > out-of-control and we come to think of that as normal and how normal people > interact, when it's not. > > -- Jen H. > > > On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:06 PM, Rodgers birdgirljess@...>wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> Thank you so much for the response, clarifications and details of signs. I >> would say that my mother is probably a high functioning BPD. She swings not >> just in a span of a few hours, but in one conversation. I'm her best >> friend, then I " always talk to her as if I hate her guts " , then we are best >> friends again by the time we hang up. Luckily, I live three hours away and >> so my physical interactions with her are limited. But, as I have been >> distanced by her geographically, and have been seeing a therapist, reading >> and doing my own introspection, I've come to see how radical, illogical, >> irrational, and downright ridiculous her behavior is. I'm not trying to be >> disrespectful or insulting when describing it as ridiculous, but the wide >> swings in just one conversation are really wild. If I told someone that >> " always they talk to me like they hate my guts " , we would have to be at a >> pretty volatile place and probably a point of no return in the >> relationship, but she ended this conversation suggesting we throw a joint >> shower for my sis-in-law. It was truly like going on a roller coaster ride. >> >> As for the private matter she blurted out, we were discussing an unrelated >> matter and my husband and I were trying to illuminate and help with her >> strong reactions and tense relationship with my brother. I should know from >> therapy and reading that this is BPD 101, you can't illuminate or >> illustrate or advise someone who is always right. (I am mentally smacking >> myself for trying) I'm not sure what precipitated the comment, because I >> was listening to my husband and she was talking over him in almost an >> " aside/loud stage whisper/letting you in on this/besting you and your >> experiences kind of way. If that makes any sense. My mother is very >> dramatic and said, while violently pointing to herself for emphasis: " I, I >> was sexually abused by my father! " Ok, so he is deceased since '96 and my >> relationship with him was far from grandfatherly, in fact it was very >> distant. I've heard all the tales of woe from mom and about how verbally >> inappropriate her parents were, how her mother made her scrub floors when >> she was 4 yrs old, etc. but she's never come out and said this. My adopted >> father and I have discussed it in the past (there's crazy history there) >> and he has hinted that he thinks she was abused and that her sister almost >> said as much. It's hard to know what to do with that information and I kind >> of blocked that she said it until we got back home and I asked hubby if he >> heard her and he said, yeah, but he pretended like he didn't because, well, >> it was awkward. My husband is not effusive or showy at all. He wasn't sure >> what made her say that either, except that we were talking about how >> verbally abusive my brother is to her. I also brushed past it and kind of >> ignored it. >> >> Now, my mother is very intelligent, although many would argue that an >> intelligent woman wouldn't make the decisions she does or the repeat >> mistakes she's made, but shouldn't a progressive, tolerant (preaches it at >> least), intelligent woman who used to he a cop realize that someone who has >> been sexually abused and by a family member no less, needs or could benefit >> from therapy? Every person in my immediate family, including the most >> resistant, least likely (my dad), has had therapy except her. And she acts >> like we are pariahs for it. >> >> Anyway, I guess this will be quite the topic next time I see the shrink, >> but I'm guessing its a little odd. Maybe more odd that I kind of ignored >> it. It's just that I don't know what to believe anymore. >> >> I read about narcissistic mothers and she has lots of those qualities and >> from what I've read about BPD, she is high functioning. But her major >> issues are extreme reactions to things; expecting the worst; taking things >> personally that have absolutely nothing to do with her; an air of >> grandiosity and extreme judgement of others; superiority affectations >> followed by declarations of unworthiness; lying about major things, but >> acting pious and self righteous and as if she is a model of civility and >> clean living; manipulation; guilt trips; jealousy of others; punishing >> others for their good fortune and hypochondria. Oh yeah and justifying >> socially inappropriate or unacceptable actions in the most mind-boggling >> ways; never apologizing except in the context of, " we'll I'm sorry if I'm >> not.... " And arguing with dead people. Just kidding, but we always say she >> would. >> >> Whatcha think? >> >> >> >> >>> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:08 PM, thejazziestjess birdgirljess@... >>> wrote: >>> >>>> ** >> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi there, >>>> >>>> I'm new to this board and found it while reading " Stop Walking on >>>> Eggshells " . I'm still trying to figure out exactly what is going on >> with >>>> the BPD person in my life, but I'm pretty sure that BPD is present, >> along >>>> with histrionics, narcissism and hypochondria. Now I'm wondering if >> someone >>>> else in our family is also exhibiting signs of these issues or if they >> have >>>> bi-polar. I know that many signs, attributes and characteristics >> overlap. >>>> Anyway, over Thanksgiving, the primary BPD blurted out a very private, >> very >>>> serious issue from her past and I am wondering how to process this >>>> information. >>>> >>>> I have to ask, what is a NADA? >>>> >>> >>> Well, the easy question first: A " nada " is a BPD and/or NPD mother, who >> is >>> " nada mother " ( " Not a mother. " ) The equivalent for a father is " Fada " . >>> I'm not positive, but I think " Fada " was actually coined first (someone >>> wanted a way to talk about their father without actually using the word >>> " father " since it seemed to give the individual in question entirely too >>> much legitimacy, was it?). " Nada " came afterward but it was such a >> perfect >>> fit that it quickly caught on, and since BPD is diagnosed far more often >> in >>> women than men you see a lot more discussion of " nadas " here than >> " fadas " . >>> >>> As for the very private, very serious issue: I don't think you've given >> us >>> enough info to know how to proceed here. Are we talking about something >>> where criminal charges might be involved or warranted, with the BPD as >>> either perpetrator or victim? (A rape? Child abuse?) Or is it just that >>> you want to know if there's a way to figure out if the BPD is telling the >>> truth, because whatever the issue was, you think it will affect your >>> dealings with this person? Or are you saying you feel sorry for the BPD >> and >>> are wondering if you should forgive the terrible behavior on the grounds >> of >>> whatever the issue is? >>> >>> If there's anything more you can tell us about the situation while >> staying >>> in your comfort zone it might help us figure out what kind of advice >> would >>> be most useful to you. >>> >>> A quick word on Borderline versus Bipolar: While they can often look >>> pretty similar (wild mood swings), based on the discussions I've had with >>> bipolars and the interactions with my own nada, I think I've identified >>> three main differences: >>> >>> *1) Reactivity to external events.* >> >>> >>> The mood swings of bipolars are relatively unaffected by external events. >>> If a bipolar is manic, you can tell them that their best friend got hit >> by >>> a car and they might just go, " Oh, drat, we were going to get together >> next >>> weekend, " and then go back to partying or gambling or whatever. If the >>> bipolar is depressed, you can tell them that they won the lottery and >> they >>> might say, " So what? My life is always going to suck anyway. " Their moods >>> are generated by their neurological imbalance (internal), so external >>> events don't change their mood much as a rule. >>> >>> Borderlines, on the other hand, are the exact opposite -- their wild mood >>> swings are driven by external events, which are often real, but are >>> generally blown hugely out of proportion or simply willfully >>> misinterpreted. They might take a small slight and blow it up in their >>> minds until you are the most evil person ever to live, but they are >>> responding to something they see happening externally (or think they see >>> happening.) Similarly, they may take a sign of mild affection to mean >> that >>> you are wildly in love with them and will be with them forever, and get >>> elated -- again, they are responding to a real external event, but just >>> overreacting or misinterpreting. >>> >>> Borderlines are marked by their extreme emotional sensitivity to tiny >>> external events (or their negative interpretation of neutral events), >> which >>> is definitely not the case with the average bipolar. >>> >>> *2) Length and suddenness of onset of mood swings. * >> >>> >>> Bipolars tend to swing moods over relatively long periods of time -- >>> generally at least a week to as long as several months in one phase, >>> followed by a similarly long time in the other phase. And the switchover >>> from one phase to another doesn't happen instantaneously, but more >>> gradually, over several days to a week. >>> >>> Borderlines, on the other hand, will swing wildly within hours or minutes >>> --- elated at noon, enraged at 2 pm, and completely calm at 3 pm. They >> can >>> swing several times in one day and can go from a great mood to a terrible >>> mood in the drop of a hat, often to the bewilderment of anyone around >> them >>> at the time. (They are for some reason particularly known for blowing up >>> into seemingly insane rages, and then an hour later acting like nothing >>> whatsoever just happened. Which might not be so bad except they usually >>> expect everyone else to pretend like nothing bad just happened as >> well...) >>> Also, I think that Borderlines have a more erratic swing pattern -- >>> bipolars tend to go " up-down-up-down, " basically, whereas a borderline >> can >>> go " up - down - enraged - sideways - up - up higher - down way low " . >>> Borderlines seem to be more unpredictable -- I would guess, again, >> because >>> they are reacting to external events, not driven by a biological mood >>> switch. >>> >>> *3) Effects of medication. * >> >>> >>> Bipolars can be helped by the right medication regimen, usually. As far >> as >>> I know, there are no medications currently known to have a positive >> effect >>> on Borderlines (unless you count knocking them out flat with a sedative >> or >>> something....) >>> >>> Here's an important thing to keep in mind: >>> >>> Treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder is NOT COVERED by most >>> insurance. Personality disorders are " Axis II " in the DSM and are >> generally >>> not thought to be treatable, so they are not covered. >>> >>> Treatment for Bipolar generally IS (if the insurance is halfway decent.) >>> Bipolar is " Axis I " in the DSM, along with unipolar depression and >>> schizophrenia. These problems are regarded as primarily biological in >>> origin and therefore treatable. >>> >>> This causes quite a few doctors to see patients who are clearly BPD and >>> diagnose them as " bipolar " on the grounds that hey, well, maybe they ARE >> a >>> little bipolar, the meds probably won't harm them, and with the insurance >>> coverage they may be able to get some access to some talk therapy, which >> in >>> a few cases does help borderlines if they are receptive to it (though >> most >>> aren't.) So from what I've read, there's a fair chunk of diagnosed >>> " bipolars " out there who aren't actually bipolar and never were -- >> they're >>> BPD, but they've been given a " covered " diagnosis in the hope of helping >>> them. >>> >>> I hope some of that may be helpful. >>> >>> And welcome to the group. >>> >>> -- Jen H. >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 I'm fairly new to the group as well... I cannot tell you how much I have learned just by sharing experiences. I've gotten more out of this in a very short period of time than the trillion dollars I've spent in therapy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 Hi again -- On reading through your letter, this thought struck me -- to my (unprofessional) ear, this sounds more like Narcissistic Personality Disorder than Borderline Personality Disorder. Your mother sounds horribly envious of you and determined to cut you down at every opportunity and to make you shower her with praise and gratitude for doing ordinary things most mothers do because they enjoy them, or because they enjoy it when their kids enjoy it, like birthday cakes. That's utterly NPD. I know it gets confusing because most BPDs have strong narcissistic streaks going as well, but it sounds like your Mom is more just plain nasty than emotionally volatile. This is not to say that your life with her is any easier than with a BPD Nada, but it does mean you might want to pick up a slightly different set of reading materials if you're interested, as there are a number of very good books out there for children of narcissistic parents, including one very good one specifically for daughters of narcissistic mothers (who often get the worst of the narcissistic attacks because Nada is envious of Daughter's youth and energy while she herself is getting older and feeling vulnerable.) Here are a couple of books you might want to take a look at: * * *Will I Ever Be Good Enough?: Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers by Karyl McBride *(The author also has a website I believe) *Trapped in the Mirror: Adult Children of Narcissists in their Struggle for Self by Elan Golomb * There is also *Children of the Self-Absorbed: A Grown-Up's Guide to Getting Over Narcissistic Parents by Nina Brown*, which is decent but I thought the writing wasn't nearly as good as the first two books. It was a lot drier. The world of the Personality Disordered is rarely clear-cut and a lot of these folks have a mix of symptoms and traits rather than one clear-cut, easy diagnosis, so I could be wrong about this, but I suggest you take a look at the information available on the Web. One author I read defined the difference between NPD and BPD this way: " Narcissists have too little emotional reactivity to others (others don't exist for them as people with feelings), while Borderlines have too much (others' actions -- real or imagined -- are what determine their entire emotional life.) " BPDs often seem narcissistic because they are so wrapped up in their own emotional turmoil that they think they have no " room " to take other people's feelings into account, or that other people's feelings are less important because the BPD feels things so much more strongly so the BPD must be the one whose emotional needs come first. A true narcissist is basically just not even aware that other people even HAVE feelings that she should be concerned about. BPDs know others have feelings, but they tend to believe their feelings are just much more important because they are so much more intense. I'll grant you that it can be hard to tell the difference, particularly since some BPDs have NPD as well, which is really horrible to deal with. What do you think? BPD, NPD, or a combination? -- Jen H. On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Rodgers birdgirljess@...>wrote: > ** > > > Jen, > > This was very helpful and I appreciate your taking so much time in helping > me sort out what's going on. I think for me, I have become the fixer and > the solution person in my family, as well as the switchboard operator and I > tend to analyze my family's behaviors to the nth degree. My therapist has > said that this desperate search to figure my mom out is my way of hoping to > understand so I can accept, but that it won't lead to what my real > underlying subconscious goal is and that is to change the situation or > control it. I was shocked when she told me I was trying to control > situations and people like my mother. Then she clarified, saying that my > attempt to control the situation is to avoid the chaos I am predicting will > ensue. > > As I read some of the other posters stories, as well as examples given in > the books I've read, I see that my mother's beahvior is much more subtle in > its abusiveness. She doesn't come right out and express her faults, like, > " you know I have a temper " , because she would never admit a failing. She > provided for us and did motherly things like make birthday cakes, buy and > wrap Christmas presents beautifully, bake and cook for us and others, and > come to plays and concerts and activities. BUT, I realize now more than > ever that there are underlying motives to her nice gestures. She wants > recognition and most of what she has done for us has been presented as > sacrifices she has made for us, right down to marrying my adopted father so > I would have a good father figure, even though she was in turn miserable > for years because of that decision. She throws things in our face in not so > subtle ways, too, like, " I paid for those teeth, don;t use them to rip open > that bag " and " I didn't have a new dress for years, but I always made sure > you all had beautiful clothes, including the beautiful ones I made you. " > > And when justifying her affair with her sister's common law husband (of 17 > years), she told me that she deserved happiness and that I should support > her because she had supported all of my decisions, even when my father was > adamantly opposed to someone I was dating (and rightfully so, I see now) > and she went to bat for me and let me be my own person. After pulling my > teenage brother into this affair ( I was away at college), he was in turn > brainwashed and told me mom deserved happiness and that I was ungrateful > for not supporting her after she had paid for my college (not quite > factually accurate) and bought all those Christmas presents over the years > and I was a selfish slut. I can't imagine my brother pulled all of that out > on his own and that he came up with those justifications. A few years ago, > the tables were turned on him when she had a secret affair with his > roommate who was my age, 36 years her junior. She said to me, " you found > someone, your father found someone and your brother, don't I deserve to be > happy? " When the affair was revealed, she told my brother she wanted his > support and approval. He wouldn't give it to her. Now who's the bad guy? He > told her he would accept that it was, but would never approve, embrace or > support it. > > My mother is very envious of what I have and opportunities in my life, > which boggles my mind, because I can see that choices and decisions are > what get you where you are, not just blind circumstance. I've always > defended her to others, noting her background, that she was never taken > seriously by her parents, that they were concerned with keeping up with the > ' and putting on airs and that seems to be very important to my mother > as well. > > She can get really nasty but all with a smile. Nothing really terrible, > just things like: " Do you like my shoes? See you're not the only one who > can have cute shoes " or " Oh I like your new hair (shocking), it compliments > your skin tone. I never liked the blonde, I always thought it made you look > washed out. " I had that hair for three years. And what's funny is last time > I went dark all over, she called it " interesting " and " different " and I > called her out that she obviously didn't like it. She said, " no I just like > the blonde highlights in it. " WTH? > With her, I get whiplash. In one of the conversations I was having with > her about the roommate affair, she said two different things. I mentioned > that he didn't have a degree or a very good job and wasn't she ready to > date someone with a little more substance and financial stability and maybe > even a college degree and she said, " I don't have a degree, why should I > expect that? " She has since gone and gotten a business degree. I said, > " yes, mother you do, you deserve someone who can whisk you away for the > week-end, someone you can be proud to have on your arm and someone you > don't have to explain. " then she went on with the " all of you found > someone, I deserve happiness, too " . One time she even said, defensively > that she deserved it and then when I brought up that she can;t just do > whatever she wants and damn the consequences, especially if it hurts family > members and I referred to the brother-in-law affair and how it estranged > the entire family and effected my brother and me and she said, " I've never > thought I deserved to be happy. I don't deserve it " . > I asked her if she was going to bring roommate boyfriend to the office > Christmas party and have him mingle with the attorneys and what she would > say when they asked how they met. She said, " I would tell them the truth, > that he sold me a bike " . I countered, oh come on, get real. Well, that is > the truth, he did sell me a bike and besides " it's nobody's business > anyway " . Then I asked if she was going to take this black gentleman to the > party the way he was or if she would ask him to remove his piercings, nose > ring and wear something other than a fake gas station attendant shirt. She > actually laughed and said, " I'm sure he wouldn't wear the bull ring " . Like > we were a couple of girlfriends chatting about our sexual escapades over > cosmos. > > The really scary thing is I am starting to see signs of BPD or bi-polar in > my brother. He has no respect for my mother and I harbor lots of resentment > toward her as well, but I am working through it and getting to a place > where I can say, " oh, well, that's just mom. " this past holiday, I defended > her to my brother who had acted like a complete butt-hole and told him he > hurt her feelings and he threw in my face, " Oh, I had to listen to you > complain when mom didn't call you for almost a year and now I can't > complain about her? " It wans't just that I thought his behavior was wrong, > everyone did. > > Ok, so here is an email from her from a recent exchange. I had > accidentally dropped a watch in a bag of clothes I was taking to my brother > and his wife, who just had a baby. I was sick over what I thought was a > lost watch, a gift from my husband and substantially valuable. I asked > brother to look in the bags of stuff I brought him and he said he did. I > tore the house apart, etc. etc. Well, five days later, he looks in the bag > and lo and behold, there it is. I ask him to ship it to me, insured, etc. > and he immediately shirks it off onto his wife who is home with a 3wk. old. > Then he emails me at 1am and asks me if I can get mom to do it. So she has > to drive across town on her lunch hour to pick it up and ship it. First I > get the " woe-is me, I rarely take lunch, so it should be ok that I leave, > although I will probably get yelled at anyway (by her bosses) and you're > lucky I am even available today, we start jury selection, but the other two > ladies are covering and also I was supposed to be going to the eye dr. > again to have my lesion (I want to name her lesion by now) looked at so I > can be approved for cataract surgery before the end of the year and I'm > still paying for the last CT, etc. etc. but I will do this for you " . > Meanwhile I am trying to get over being floored that my brother can't do > this one little measly thing I have asked him to do and I am trying not to > put it in the context of " I've done so much for him, I can't believe this " > And my husband thinks it's outrageous he wouldn't do it, no questions > asked. So I send my mom an email saying I can't believe this is such a > hassle and I'm getting so much pushback and that I shouldn't be made to > feel guilty for having nice things and I feel like brother is being > cavalier and selfish and she responds: " I am certainly not trying to make > you feel guilty because you have nice things. I am glad that you found > someone to love that can also provide for you and that you get to travel > and do things that you like and explore new possibilities and your > potential. If anything, I wish I were in your shoes as that is how I > imagined my life would be when I was young. It didn't turn out that way - > but that's life. But since it is too late for me, I'm happy that you have > those opportunities and that security. " > > This is such a typical response for her. She didn't talk to me for nearly > 8 months after I went on a dive vacation and has frequently made comments > about how she isn't included on trips, etc. > > Anyway, that just cracked me up, but of course, the guilt got the best of > me and I had a catered lunch sent to her office for her trouble. > > > > > Hi again -- > > > > Yes, to me your mother sounds very much like a Borderline and not a > > Bipolar. (Caveat: I'm not a mental health professional (yet), although > I'm > > studying up and working on getting into a psych graduate program for what > > that's worth.) The " It sounds like you really hate me -- let's plan a > > shower party! " is really, really typical borderline. The first book for > > the layman on BPD was called " I hate you! Don't leave me! " and while the > > book is rather outdated at this point (a lot more has been learned), the > > title is still very evocative of what living with a BPD is like. > > > > I wouldn't worry about sounding disrespectful and/or insulting about your > > Nada on this list -- no one here is going to tell you to " Honor thy > mother " > > or anything foolish like that. Most of us curse our Nadas on a pretty > > regular basis (some of us feel sorry for them at the same time, but some > of > > us don't.) In any case, there will be no finger-pointing or shaming of > you > > for " treating your Nada badly, " provided you stop short of physical > > assault. > > > > The claim of " I was sexually abused! " is something to take note of, but > > you'll need to be a bit wary, and here's why. When BPD was first > > recognized and the symptoms described as a recognizable pattern, it was > > thought that nearly all BPDs had suffered severe physical and/or sexual > > abuse as children, and that this has " caused " them to become BPD. > > > > Later research showed that this idea was based on the claims of the BPD > > sufferers themselves, and a BPD is *never* a good person to go to for an > > objective view of " abuse " , as they are prone to regarding things like a > > mildly disapproving look as " abusive. " So when the claims of a number of > > the early BPDs who were studied were fact-checked with others who were > > present at the time, it came out that many of the abuse stories appeared > to > > have been either grossly exaggerated or fabricated outright. > > > > Also, many BPDs excel at " playing the victim " and are willing to make up > > stuff to make themselves seem more victimized than they really are. This > is > > probably because they just FEEL so victimized, but can't explain why (on > > some level they know that their over-reactivity isn't normal), so they > feel > > compelled to make up horrible things that happened to them that will > > justify allowing them to continue to behave badly and cause everyone to > cut > > them a lot of slack. > > > > That having been said, some BPDs were in fact abused, and you probably > CAN > > turn a basically normal (or only slightly over-sensitive) kid into a > raging > > BPD with sufficient amounts of physical/sexual/mental/emotional abuse. So > > I can't say you should reject your Mom's claim out of hand, particularly > if > > there is corroborating evidence from other sources. > > > > However, given that your grandfather is dead, it's unclear what your Nada > > expected you to do or say about her claim. You are right that the thing > > for her would be therapy...but one of the most frustrating things about > > dealing with BPDs, particularly the high-functioning variety, is that > > getting them into therapy is essentially impossible. My whole family has > > tried multiple times (at least three, possibly four depending on how you > > count) to get my Nada into therapy. Each time, she'll go for a few > sessions > > just to get us off her back, and then stop, claiming " It's a waste of > time > > and money! Nothing's wrong with me, it's all YOU people! " It seems like > > most BPDs have a very unstable sense of " self " , a lousy central identity. > > Whether that's the emotional dysregulation doing it, or the lack of > impulse > > control -- or whether the poor sense of self comes first and causes the > > other symptoms -- is very much debated. But because of this, many of them > > have a strongly phobic fear of admitting that the problem might be with > > them and also have real difficulty committing to making progress via > > therapy. Admitting that they might actually be causing their own problems > > is a horribly threatening thing to them, and most of them just can't > stand > > the anxiety -- and of course, if you don't acknowledge you have a > problem, > > you'll get nowhere in fixing it. Can't fix what's not broke. In some ways > > they are their own worst enemies. Their sense of self is too unstable for > > them to voluntarily work to change it, but if they don't work to change > it, > > they'll never stabilize. It's a Catch-22. > > > > As in your family, everyone in my family has been in therapy EXCEPT Nada. > > I find that this is a pretty good sign that there's a BPD running amok -- > > everyone around them needs help but they are convinced they themselves > are > > perfectly fine! > > > > And intelligence is no shield against this for them, either -- my Nada is > > very intelligent and quite accomplished, but her ability to process and > > manage data simply does not apply when it comes to managing her emotions. > > Emotional regulation and analytic thought happen in entirely different > > areas of the brain, and the emotional brain is much older and stronger > than > > the analytical brain, particularly when it's dysregulated as in BPD. > > Haidt uses the image of " the elephant with the rider " to > describe > > the dual nature of the human brain, with the emotional centers being the > > elephant (big and strong but only animal-smart) and the analytic centers > > being the rider (has a better view and can think and plan, but is very > much > > weaker than the elephant and not capable of stopping said elephant if it > > goes on a rampage.) The intelligence of a BPD sufferer is riding on an > > elephant that is completely berserk a lot of the time -- there's no hope > of > > controlling it. > > > > In any case, if your Nada won't get therapy to try and learn to cope with > > her past, there's nothing you can, or should, do about it. You have to > just > > leave her alone to deal with her own choices in those areas. (I know, I > > know, this is easier said than done. It's taken me way too long to get > over > > my own compulsion to try and forcibly fix my Nada, so I know how tough it > > is.) You are allowed to feel compassion for what she may have suffered > > without feeling like that entitles her to abuse you. You were never a > part > > of what your grandfather did, and you do not have to bear the burden of > > your mother's rage and grief over her past. You do not owe that to her. > > (Healthy parents are generally horrified at the idea that their children > > should somehow take the parent's pain upon themselves as part of filial > > duty, but BPD parents seem to feel like their kids owe it to them to act > as > > toxic emotion waste dumps because they just need it so badly, and their > > kids LOVE them, so why wouldn't the kids volunteer to be little emotional > > Superfund Sites?? UGH.) > > > > And the " justification " of really bad behavior is classic BPD too. My > Nada > > is fond of saying things like, " I know I'm nosy, but... " and then asking > a > > very inappropriate personal question, or " Everyone knows I have a bad > > temper! " (as if that makes raging out of control somehow okay) or " I'm > just > > anal, you know that, " when her OCPD-ness is running rampant. Basically > she > > seems to feel that if she acknowledges she is behaving badly, she doesn't > > actually have to STOP the behavior, because just acknowledging that it's > > bad means she's done her penance, I guess? I don't understand the " logic " > > that says " As long as I admit how nasty I'm being, I get to continue > doing > > it! " -- but a lot of BPDs use it. I hear it as a sort of " You have to > love > > me unconditionally, just as I am, no matter how badly I treat you because > > that's just WHO I AM! So get used to it! " > > > > I'm glad to hear you have a therapist who's helping you. Many of us find > > we need help untangling the warped emotional reality forced on us by our > > Nadas, and sometimes we pick up what we call " fleas " (as in, " You lie > down > > with dogs, you get up with fleas, " ), which are learned BPD-ish behaviors > we > > pick up just because we're raised with someone who is emotionally > > out-of-control and we come to think of that as normal and how normal > people > > interact, when it's not. > > > > -- Jen H. > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:06 PM, Rodgers < > birdgirljess@...>wrote: > > > >> ** > > >> > >> > >> Thank you so much for the response, clarifications and details of > signs. I > >> would say that my mother is probably a high functioning BPD. She swings > not > >> just in a span of a few hours, but in one conversation. I'm her best > >> friend, then I " always talk to her as if I hate her guts " , then we are > best > >> friends again by the time we hang up. Luckily, I live three hours away > and > >> so my physical interactions with her are limited. But, as I have been > >> distanced by her geographically, and have been seeing a therapist, > reading > >> and doing my own introspection, I've come to see how radical, illogical, > >> irrational, and downright ridiculous her behavior is. I'm not trying to > be > >> disrespectful or insulting when describing it as ridiculous, but the > wide > >> swings in just one conversation are really wild. If I told someone that > >> " always they talk to me like they hate my guts " , we would have to be at > a > >> pretty volatile place and probably a point of no return in the > >> relationship, but she ended this conversation suggesting we throw a > joint > >> shower for my sis-in-law. It was truly like going on a roller coaster > ride. > >> > >> As for the private matter she blurted out, we were discussing an > unrelated > >> matter and my husband and I were trying to illuminate and help with her > >> strong reactions and tense relationship with my brother. I should know > from > >> therapy and reading that this is BPD 101, you can't illuminate or > >> illustrate or advise someone who is always right. (I am mentally > smacking > >> myself for trying) I'm not sure what precipitated the comment, because I > >> was listening to my husband and she was talking over him in almost an > >> " aside/loud stage whisper/letting you in on this/besting you and your > >> experiences kind of way. If that makes any sense. My mother is very > >> dramatic and said, while violently pointing to herself for emphasis: > " I, I > >> was sexually abused by my father! " Ok, so he is deceased since '96 and > my > >> relationship with him was far from grandfatherly, in fact it was very > >> distant. I've heard all the tales of woe from mom and about how verbally > >> inappropriate her parents were, how her mother made her scrub floors > when > >> she was 4 yrs old, etc. but she's never come out and said this. My > adopted > >> father and I have discussed it in the past (there's crazy history there) > >> and he has hinted that he thinks she was abused and that her sister > almost > >> said as much. It's hard to know what to do with that information and I > kind > >> of blocked that she said it until we got back home and I asked hubby if > he > >> heard her and he said, yeah, but he pretended like he didn't because, > well, > >> it was awkward. My husband is not effusive or showy at all. He wasn't > sure > >> what made her say that either, except that we were talking about how > >> verbally abusive my brother is to her. I also brushed past it and kind > of > >> ignored it. > >> > >> Now, my mother is very intelligent, although many would argue that an > >> intelligent woman wouldn't make the decisions she does or the repeat > >> mistakes she's made, but shouldn't a progressive, tolerant (preaches it > at > >> least), intelligent woman who used to he a cop realize that someone who > has > >> been sexually abused and by a family member no less, needs or could > benefit > >> from therapy? Every person in my immediate family, including the most > >> resistant, least likely (my dad), has had therapy except her. And she > acts > >> like we are pariahs for it. > >> > >> Anyway, I guess this will be quite the topic next time I see the shrink, > >> but I'm guessing its a little odd. Maybe more odd that I kind of ignored > >> it. It's just that I don't know what to believe anymore. > >> > >> I read about narcissistic mothers and she has lots of those qualities > and > >> from what I've read about BPD, she is high functioning. But her major > >> issues are extreme reactions to things; expecting the worst; taking > things > >> personally that have absolutely nothing to do with her; an air of > >> grandiosity and extreme judgement of others; superiority affectations > >> followed by declarations of unworthiness; lying about major things, but > >> acting pious and self righteous and as if she is a model of civility and > >> clean living; manipulation; guilt trips; jealousy of others; punishing > >> others for their good fortune and hypochondria. Oh yeah and justifying > >> socially inappropriate or unacceptable actions in the most mind-boggling > >> ways; never apologizing except in the context of, " we'll I'm sorry if > I'm > >> not.... " And arguing with dead people. Just kidding, but we always say > she > >> would. > >> > >> Whatcha think? > >> > >> > >> On Nov 30, 2012, at 9:03 PM, Hawthorne jenh789@...> > wrote: > >> > >>> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:08 PM, thejazziestjess < > birdgirljess@... > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> ** > >> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi there, > >>>> > >>>> I'm new to this board and found it while reading " Stop Walking on > >>>> Eggshells " . I'm still trying to figure out exactly what is going on > >> with > >>>> the BPD person in my life, but I'm pretty sure that BPD is present, > >> along > >>>> with histrionics, narcissism and hypochondria. Now I'm wondering if > >> someone > >>>> else in our family is also exhibiting signs of these issues or if they > >> have > >>>> bi-polar. I know that many signs, attributes and characteristics > >> overlap. > >>>> Anyway, over Thanksgiving, the primary BPD blurted out a very private, > >> very > >>>> serious issue from her past and I am wondering how to process this > >>>> information. > >>>> > >>>> I have to ask, what is a NADA? > >>>> > >>> > >>> Well, the easy question first: A " nada " is a BPD and/or NPD mother, who > >> is > >>> " nada mother " ( " Not a mother. " ) The equivalent for a father is " Fada " . > >>> I'm not positive, but I think " Fada " was actually coined first (someone > >>> wanted a way to talk about their father without actually using the word > >>> " father " since it seemed to give the individual in question entirely > too > >>> much legitimacy, was it?). " Nada " came afterward but it was such a > >> perfect > >>> fit that it quickly caught on, and since BPD is diagnosed far more > often > >> in > >>> women than men you see a lot more discussion of " nadas " here than > >> " fadas " . > >>> > >>> As for the very private, very serious issue: I don't think you've given > >> us > >>> enough info to know how to proceed here. Are we talking about something > >>> where criminal charges might be involved or warranted, with the BPD as > >>> either perpetrator or victim? (A rape? Child abuse?) Or is it just that > >>> you want to know if there's a way to figure out if the BPD is telling > the > >>> truth, because whatever the issue was, you think it will affect your > >>> dealings with this person? Or are you saying you feel sorry for the BPD > >> and > >>> are wondering if you should forgive the terrible behavior on the > grounds > >> of > >>> whatever the issue is? > >>> > >>> If there's anything more you can tell us about the situation while > >> staying > >>> in your comfort zone it might help us figure out what kind of advice > >> would > >>> be most useful to you. > >>> > >>> A quick word on Borderline versus Bipolar: While they can often look > >>> pretty similar (wild mood swings), based on the discussions I've had > with > >>> bipolars and the interactions with my own nada, I think I've identified > >>> three main differences: > >>> > >>> *1) Reactivity to external events.* > >> > >>> > >>> The mood swings of bipolars are relatively unaffected by external > events. > >>> If a bipolar is manic, you can tell them that their best friend got hit > >> by > >>> a car and they might just go, " Oh, drat, we were going to get together > >> next > >>> weekend, " and then go back to partying or gambling or whatever. If the > >>> bipolar is depressed, you can tell them that they won the lottery and > >> they > >>> might say, " So what? My life is always going to suck anyway. " Their > moods > >>> are generated by their neurological imbalance (internal), so external > >>> events don't change their mood much as a rule. > >>> > >>> Borderlines, on the other hand, are the exact opposite -- their wild > mood > >>> swings are driven by external events, which are often real, but are > >>> generally blown hugely out of proportion or simply willfully > >>> misinterpreted. They might take a small slight and blow it up in their > >>> minds until you are the most evil person ever to live, but they are > >>> responding to something they see happening externally (or think they > see > >>> happening.) Similarly, they may take a sign of mild affection to mean > >> that > >>> you are wildly in love with them and will be with them forever, and get > >>> elated -- again, they are responding to a real external event, but just > >>> overreacting or misinterpreting. > >>> > >>> Borderlines are marked by their extreme emotional sensitivity to tiny > >>> external events (or their negative interpretation of neutral events), > >> which > >>> is definitely not the case with the average bipolar. > >>> > >>> *2) Length and suddenness of onset of mood swings. * > >> > >>> > >>> Bipolars tend to swing moods over relatively long periods of time -- > >>> generally at least a week to as long as several months in one phase, > >>> followed by a similarly long time in the other phase. And the > switchover > >>> from one phase to another doesn't happen instantaneously, but more > >>> gradually, over several days to a week. > >>> > >>> Borderlines, on the other hand, will swing wildly within hours or > minutes > >>> --- elated at noon, enraged at 2 pm, and completely calm at 3 pm. They > >> can > >>> swing several times in one day and can go from a great mood to a > terrible > >>> mood in the drop of a hat, often to the bewilderment of anyone around > >> them > >>> at the time. (They are for some reason particularly known for blowing > up > >>> into seemingly insane rages, and then an hour later acting like nothing > >>> whatsoever just happened. Which might not be so bad except they usually > >>> expect everyone else to pretend like nothing bad just happened as > >> well...) > >>> Also, I think that Borderlines have a more erratic swing pattern -- > >>> bipolars tend to go " up-down-up-down, " basically, whereas a borderline > >> can > >>> go " up - down - enraged - sideways - up - up higher - down way low " . > >>> Borderlines seem to be more unpredictable -- I would guess, again, > >> because > >>> they are reacting to external events, not driven by a biological mood > >>> switch. > >>> > >>> *3) Effects of medication. * > >> > >>> > >>> Bipolars can be helped by the right medication regimen, usually. As far > >> as > >>> I know, there are no medications currently known to have a positive > >> effect > >>> on Borderlines (unless you count knocking them out flat with a sedative > >> or > >>> something....) > >>> > >>> Here's an important thing to keep in mind: > >>> > >>> Treatment for Borderline Personality Disorder is NOT COVERED by most > >>> insurance. Personality disorders are " Axis II " in the DSM and are > >> generally > >>> not thought to be treatable, so they are not covered. > >>> > >>> Treatment for Bipolar generally IS (if the insurance is halfway > decent.) > >>> Bipolar is " Axis I " in the DSM, along with unipolar depression and > >>> schizophrenia. These problems are regarded as primarily biological in > >>> origin and therefore treatable. > >>> > >>> This causes quite a few doctors to see patients who are clearly BPD and > >>> diagnose them as " bipolar " on the grounds that hey, well, maybe they > ARE > >> a > >>> little bipolar, the meds probably won't harm them, and with the > insurance > >>> coverage they may be able to get some access to some talk therapy, > which > >> in > >>> a few cases does help borderlines if they are receptive to it (though > >> most > >>> aren't.) So from what I've read, there's a fair chunk of diagnosed > >>> " bipolars " out there who aren't actually bipolar and never were -- > >> they're > >>> BPD, but they've been given a " covered " diagnosis in the hope of > helping > >>> them. > >>> > >>> I hope some of that may be helpful. > >>> > >>> And welcome to the group. > >>> > >>> -- Jen H. > >>> > >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 I'm new to this group as well. I've been seeing a therapist for years because I thought there was something wrong with me. Throughout all these years my therapist has been telling me that he thinks my mother has a personality disorder, and that it sounds like BPD. For years, I just didn't hear it until very recently. I finally had an 'aha' moment when my mother found out that I was sexually assaulted by a professor when I was 21...and got mad at me that I didn't tell her. She made the entire thing about her. I cannot tell you how violated I felt. I had to comfort her! She felt like I was withholding and abandoning her because I didn't tell her about this stuff. THat's when I realized that something must be wrong with her. And just a couple of days ago had a serious discussion with my therapist about it. I found this group through the Stop Walking on Eggshells book as well. I'm sorry about you're going through. It seems holidays are the worst with these people, at least for me it is. > > Hi there, > > I'm new to this board and found it while reading " Stop Walking on Eggshells " . I'm still trying to figure out exactly what is going on with the BPD person in my life, but I'm pretty sure that BPD is present, along with histrionics, narcissism and hypochondria. Now I'm wondering if someone else in our family is also exhibiting signs of these issues or if they have bi-polar. I know that many signs, attributes and characteristics overlap. Anyway, over Thanksgiving, the primary BPD blurted out a very private, very serious issue from her past and I am wondering how to process this information. > > I have to ask, what is a NADA? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Welcome! Glad you're here. Funny you mentioned how holidays are the worst with these people. My husband had an interesting thought. I asked him why he thought people just go on and on about christmas. He said he thinks it's because some people are miserable and they think christmas is the cause of their misery or the solution to it. While in reality it is neither. As if this hyped thing becomes a mirror of misery or the hope of a cure for misery. The pwPD magically thinks with their child christmas mind, if I can get this christmas just right I can replay the trauma do it the " right " way this time. Get through the trauma block and live happily ever after. So while they're assembling the cast and production to re enact the trauma but do it the right way, their way, they are faced with the fact that no one likes them all that much. The cast doesn't want to come and do the right faces, give the right gifts, doesn't even want to call or show up! So it's just fury at the fact that the entire world is against them when all they want to do is get a do over (and control everything). Why won't these inanimate people/things help? Their whole sense of self is on the line. To some it's just a day. To them it's their big chance to be in control, win and vanquish all the things that make them feel worthless. Just like them to seek an external solution to an internal problem. > ** > > > > I'm new to this group as well. I've been seeing a therapist for years > because I thought there was something wrong with me. Throughout all these > years my therapist has been telling me that he thinks my mother has a > personality disorder, and that it sounds like BPD. For years, I just didn't > hear it until very recently. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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