Two confusing parts about bpd's

[Guest guest]

I have yet to find much information expressing any real treatment for bpd, so it

leaves me both confused and hurt.

Even though nada says and does hurtful things, isn't there still a person

inside? If I choose NC, isn't there some part of her that has genuine hurt,

authentic loneliness?

And two, if there is no treatment, or hope for change, does this mean our

relationship is over? It just seems so final. I can't completely comprehend that

this relationship is over, forever.

I suppose I've been asking myself, " was there ever really a relationship to

begin with? " I'm trying to let go of my resentment, and move forward, but I

still can't grasp that it's over for good. Maybe it is like an alcoholic, who

has to say no to that one drink because there never will be just one drink.

Steve M.

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve --

> **

>

>

> I have yet to find much information expressing any real treatment for bpd,

> so it leaves me both confused and hurt.

>

Intensive talk-based therapy CAN help BPDs, but they have to be willing to

go and do it and commit to it, which most of them aren't. *IF* you can

convince your Nada to go to therapy and stick with it she *might* improve,

although there are no guarantees. The two types of therapy most often

regarded as having somewhat proven value for Borderlines are DBT and

mentalization. Finding a DBT-based therapy for your nada to attend in

person might or might not be possible, but if she really wants to improve,

there are several goods books and workbooks out there which she can

self-study if she's motivated enough.

It's not that BPD is hopeless -- it's that part of the disorder is usually

a really, really strong drive to be the " victim " , to not be the " cause " of

the issues, to have it be " everyone else's fault. " In order for therapy to

work, as cliche as it sounds, the sufferer has to want to change, want to

get better.

>

> Even though nada says and does hurtful things, isn't there still a person

> inside? If I choose NC, isn't there some part of her that has genuine hurt,

> authentic loneliness?

>

Of course. Who said otherwise? Few people doubt that Nadas are actually

suffering, often suffering terribly. But are you suggesting that because

they lash out in their suffering, those around them have to grit their

teeth and bear it? That's not true. If your Nada were a paranoid

schizophrenic and you woke up one morning to find her standing over your

bed, holding a hammer, waiting to smash your skull in unless you " Stopped

beaming those thoughts into my head! " , would you feel like you had to lie

there and let yourself be killed because her terror and confusion are

genuine?

Maybe you would, and if so, that's your choice. Most of us, though, see no

sin and no guilt (though not necessarily no sorrow) in leaving to save

ourselves. I personally like to believe that somewhere inside my Nada

there is also a real mother, who wants me to be safe and happy, and who

wants me to get away from her because she knows that the Nada-part of

herself is hurting me and can't or won't stop. (This idea is actually gone

into in pretty significant depth in a book called " Cutting Loose " , which is

meant for all adult children who have troubled relationships with their

parents; it suggests viewing your lousy parents as a combination of the

" bad parent " -- who in this book is actually the childish side of your

parent, which is selfish and wants to harm their children -- and the " good

parent " , who is the adult who really does want what's best for their

children.)

Anyway, I believe that the part of my Nada where my " real mother " dwells

would never, ever want to cause me pain, and would rather see me gone and

away than see me stay and suffer, like most healthy parents would. That's

the part of my Nada I want to respect, not that part that lashes out

viciously at the tiniest of excuses.

>

> And two, if there is no treatment, or hope for change, does this mean our

> relationship is over? It just seems so final. I can't completely comprehend

> that this relationship is over, forever.

>

Well, you don't HAVE to go full NC; some people, particularly those whose

Nadas are somewhat less badly affected, have a lot of success with the

" medium chill " method, in which you minimize but do not break contact. You

always have that choice.

For that matter, you have the choice of staying in full contact with her

and putting up with her abuse because you think it's the right thing to do

-- no one makes that choice for you. If you want to stay and deal, stay.

The one thing you should let go of, though, is the idea that your

continuing such sacrifices is going to somehow " fix " your Nada or cause her

to realize that " she really loves you " and spontaneously stop lashing out.

That isn't going to happen. In fact, by sticking around, you're teaching

your Nada that her being nasty to you is perfectly okay, and you give her

no reason whatsoever to work toward helping herself. Some might call this

enabling, but it's always, always your choice whether you want to do it or

not.

I suppose I've been asking myself, " was there ever really a relationship to

> begin with? " I'm trying to let go of my resentment, and move forward, but I

> still can't grasp that it's over for good. Maybe it is like an alcoholic,

> who has to say no to that one drink because there never will be just one

> drink.

>

I tend to think of it more as like being a smoker -- you've become addicted

to something that sometimes give you short-term pleasure or relief, but it

gives you long-term grief and damage, so you want to stop. But the pull of

the short-term relief is strong, and you have to practice quitting,

practice letting go. Few people can just give up cigarettes cold turkey -

most take several tries to completely quit. Each time they try, they go a

little longer without a smoke, or learn a new avoidance technique, until

finally a critical threshold is reached and they can let the compulsion go.

This may or may not eventually happen with you. If you don't feel ready to

go full NC for some reason, then don't do it. You can go " medium chill " ,

you can simply focus on working hard to set limits and boundaries

(remembering that BPDs WILL break them), or you can just lie there and take

whatever she dishes out, out of a sense of duty and a desire not to feel

like an emotional orphan. All of these are options, and they all have

their costs and benefits. You don't have to feel like you MUST do

something that feels wrong for you personally just because most of us on

the list are doing it. You're probably in a different place than we are,

and your Nada is not our Nadas. Your situation is not ours.

I would just suggest that you try to be clear on the ramifications and

likely outcomes of various strategies for living with (or not living with)

your Nada and her problems so that you don't get your hopes up unreasonably

high and wind up getting them crushed repeatedly. Keep in mind that every

Nada is an individual, and miracles do sometimes happen. What you see on

this list is a description of what USUALLY happens with Nadas, of what is

MOST OFTEN true about them. Your Nada may be an exception. That's always

possible.

But she may well NOT be an exception, so know what you're signing up for if

you decide to stay in contact with her. Know what price may be exacted and

be prepared to accept it. It's not fair to your Nada to expect her to

change in ways she is probably simply not capable of changing, and then

blame HER because you sacrificed for her and she failed to be grateful for

it and change like you want. Remember DETACH: " Don't Even Try And Change

Her. " If you decide to stick around and keep accepting any abuse she

throws, don't blame HER that you didn't leave when you could. She's not

making your choices for you. You are.

-- Jen H.

[Guest guest]

Steve,

Yes, there is a person inside and yes that person can feel

genuine hurt. The problem is that that person often feels

genuine hurt for no matter what you do unless you do exactly as

she wants at the moment, and sometimes even then. A second

problem is that it is not your responsibility to protect her

emotions. Sometimes it helps to compare our nadas/fadas to a

rapid dog. A dog with rabies may be a nice dog inside and you

may love that dog, but you if you don't take steps to protect

yourself from the rabies, it will kill you. That's not the dog's

choice. It is just the way it is. Our parents didn't choose to

have BPD. We have to protect ourselves from it though or it will

ruin our lives. NC is one way to do that. It isn't the only way.

BPD can be treated to some extent but BPD generally prevents its

victims from wanting to be treated. They can't admit that there

is anything wrong with them so they usually resist all efforts

at treatment. That doesn't mean that you can't have a

relationship with your nada. It does mean that if you want there

to be change, you are the one who will have to change. You can

change your expectations and you can chnage how you react to her

bad behavior. I found that when I stopped expecting my nada to

act like a real mother I was more able to deal with they way she

is without letting it get to me.

There's a good chance that the relationship you thought you had

never really existed. Most of us can't have the loving storybook

relationship with our nada/fada that people envision themselves

having. They're just not capable of that type of relationship.

There are other types of relationship possible though. Some of

us can maintain limited contact by having and enforcing strong

boundaries. That may or may not be the right choice for you. The

right choice may change with time. You may want to stop contact

for a period of time while you sort out your own thoughts and

emotions and work your way through what you can and can't deal

with. When you're in a better place emotionally, it may be

possible to resume some limited contact. Or you may decide that

staying NC is best for you.

At 04:05 AM 12/02/2012 SteveM wrote:

>I have yet to find much information expressing any real

>treatment for bpd, so it leaves me both confused and hurt.

>

>Even though nada says and does hurtful things, isn't there

>still a person inside? If I choose NC, isn't there some part of

>her that has genuine hurt, authentic loneliness?

>

>And two, if there is no treatment, or hope for change, does

>this mean our relationship is over? It just seems so final. I

>can't completely comprehend that this relationship is over,

>forever.

>

>I suppose I've been asking myself, " was there ever really a

>relationship to begin with? " I'm trying to let go of my

>resentment, and move forward, but I still can't grasp that it's

>over for good. Maybe it is like an alcoholic, who has to say no

>to that one drink because there never will be just one drink.

>

>Steve M.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Well said, Jen!

[Guest guest]

Any hope of a positive change for ANY problem requires that the individual

(a) recognizes that they even HAVE a problem, and

( actually WANTS to do the hard work it takes to change themselves.

Adults with personality disorders who are able to *perceive* that their words

and actions are hurting those they love (and hurting their own self) and are

able to *CARE* that they are doing damage, those individuals have a chance of

achieving better emotional health.

This is more likely if an adult has only a mild case of bpd (fewer of the traits

and behaviors are in evidence, and the traits/behaviors are expressed in a less

frequent, less intense way.) A mild case of bpd or even " bpd fleas " has a

better shot at getting better than a severe, intransigent, long-term case.

Dialectical behavioral therapy in particular was developed by a psychologist who

has/had bpd herself; this therapy has demonstrated improvement in young bpd

patients who have suicidal ideation.

So, its not absolutely hopeless. But the person with bpd has to want to get

better.

Meanwhile, its not in the bpd person's best interest or ours to enable them to

abuse us or our spouses or our children, in my opinion.

-Annie

>

> I have yet to find much information expressing any real treatment for bpd, so

it leaves me both confused and hurt.

>

> Even though nada says and does hurtful things, isn't there still a person

inside? If I choose NC, isn't there some part of her that has genuine hurt,

authentic loneliness?

>

> And two, if there is no treatment, or hope for change, does this mean our

relationship is over? It just seems so final. I can't completely comprehend that

this relationship is over, forever.

>

> I suppose I've been asking myself, " was there ever really a relationship to

begin with? " I'm trying to let go of my resentment, and move forward, but I

still can't grasp that it's over for good. Maybe it is like an alcoholic, who

has to say no to that one drink because there never will be just one drink.

>

> Steve M.

>

[Guest guest]

You've hit on something that torments, most likely, all of us...

I've gone in and out of NC for all of these years because I've always been

haunted by nada going in and out of reality and in her brief visits to

" reality " she's lonely and remorseful for her behavior.

Like Christmas. Will she be home alone remembering our family holidays?

When my grandparents were alive and there would be twenty to thirty people

gathering to celebrate together? Will she sit in the dark and cry?

Or...

Will she be home alone blaming everyone for where she is in life? Most

likely, blaming me as I am the sole reason for her miserable existence. If

I hadn't been born she would have been a " star " . Will she be pissed and

hostile?

The way I see it, is there is no real good answer. So, we do what is best

for ourselves as we can't fix or rehabilitate nadas.

As far as I know, there is no treatment. Any counseling nada has attempted

has been short lived. As soon as a nerve is touched, she's outa there.

J

[Guest guest]

I think you're absolutely right that we should do what is best

for ourselves because we can't fix them. If she's sitting home

alone remembering past holidays, sitting in the dark crying, or

blaming everyone else, that's her choice. She has alternatives.

If we don't choose to spend holidays with our nadas, they could

choose to spend time with friends or to volunteer somewhere

instead. They could create their own holiday traditions and

enjoy themselves. Mostly they choose not to do any of those

things though. I have no idea what my nada does on holidays. She

used to be a nurse and often worked holidays and she's been a

militant vegetarian for many years, refusing to cook or eat

traditional holiday meals, so that combination made it easy for

me to stop seeing her on holidays. I spend time with other

family members on holidays or I go off and do something that I

enjoy. If she chooses to be unhappy, that's her problem, and I

refuse to make it mine.

At 11:25 AM 12/02/2012 Janice Hall wrote:

>You've hit on something that torments, most likely, all of

>us...

>

>I've gone in and out of NC for all of these years because I've

>always been

>haunted by nada going in and out of reality and in her brief

>visits to

> " reality " she's lonely and remorseful for her behavior.

>Like Christmas. Will she be home alone remembering our family

>holidays?

> When my grandparents were alive and there would be twenty to

> thirty people

>gathering to celebrate together? Will she sit in the dark and

>cry?

>

>Or...

>

>Will she be home alone blaming everyone for where she is in

>life? Most

>likely, blaming me as I am the sole reason for her miserable

>existence. If

>I hadn't been born she would have been a " star " . Will she be

>pissed and

>hostile?

>

>The way I see it, is there is no real good answer. So, we do

>what is best

>for ourselves as we can't fix or rehabilitate nadas.

>

>As far as I know, there is no treatment. Any counseling nada

>has attempted

>has been short lived. As soon as a nerve is touched, she's

>outa there.

>

>J

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Hi Jenn, thank you. Again,s your posts, to & others have been helpful.

It seems like the challenging part is to distinguish between my feelings for the

loving person inside nada and my feelings for the bpd side of nada. And since,

the bpd side is more present, more dominating, volatile and surprising, I live

that relationship in fear.

I have built so much anger & resentment over the years I lost, and the traits

I've developed to overcompensate for nada's traits. However, I know that anger

can cause me to be short-sighted, and often selfish, so I have to check in, make

sure I'm not justifying my own shortcomings.

You touched on something in your response about NC that brought something to my

attention. I have always left & stayed away. The day after high school I moved

away to college; the week after college, I moved across country for grad school.

I have never lived closer than a 5 hour airplane ride to nada. Not interesting

for the group purpose, I know, but I guess I learned that I have always had some

sort of NC. Now it's deliberate. Is it empowering to make that stance? Will it

always have a twinge of pain?

I'm not hopeful that any sort of therapy will be met with acceptance, whether

short or long term. I see and hear the embodiment of obstinance.

I feel like a child. I'm 40 years old. I have an adult relationship with my

father (my parents divorced when I was 4). But, I see the effects of bpd are

that I still feel young, punishable, attention-starved, hopeful and

terrorized--in my nada relationship. I have a very real fear that she'll just

show up at my home or my job, unannounced and cause a big scene, or hurt me in

some real way (i live on the other side of the country). I suppose that's why

it's very important to have strong, clearly defined stances, not only in my

relationship with nada, but also my relationship with myself when it comes to

nada.

Thank you for the idea that she does want me to be safe and secure. That's

helpful. And thank you for letting me figure this out on paper.

I don't want to be, or play the victim anymore. But I also don't want to cause

any pain. This must be one of the big challenges for adults of nada's.

Thank you,

Steve

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > I have yet to find much information expressing any real treatment for bpd,

> > so it leaves me both confused and hurt.

> >

> Intensive talk-based therapy CAN help BPDs, but they have to be willing to

> go and do it and commit to it, which most of them aren't. *IF* you can

> convince your Nada to go to therapy and stick with it she *might* improve,

> although there are no guarantees. The two types of therapy most often

> regarded as having somewhat proven value for Borderlines are DBT and

> mentalization. Finding a DBT-based therapy for your nada to attend in

> person might or might not be possible, but if she really wants to improve,

> there are several goods books and workbooks out there which she can

> self-study if she's motivated enough.

>

> It's not that BPD is hopeless -- it's that part of the disorder is usually

> a really, really strong drive to be the " victim " , to not be the " cause " of

> the issues, to have it be " everyone else's fault. " In order for therapy to

> work, as cliche as it sounds, the sufferer has to want to change, want to

> get better.

>

> >

> > Even though nada says and does hurtful things, isn't there still a person

> > inside? If I choose NC, isn't there some part of her that has genuine hurt,

> > authentic loneliness?

> >

>

> Of course. Who said otherwise? Few people doubt that Nadas are actually

> suffering, often suffering terribly. But are you suggesting that because

> they lash out in their suffering, those around them have to grit their

> teeth and bear it? That's not true. If your Nada were a paranoid

> schizophrenic and you woke up one morning to find her standing over your

> bed, holding a hammer, waiting to smash your skull in unless you " Stopped

> beaming those thoughts into my head! " , would you feel like you had to lie

> there and let yourself be killed because her terror and confusion are

> genuine?

>

> Maybe you would, and if so, that's your choice. Most of us, though, see no

> sin and no guilt (though not necessarily no sorrow) in leaving to save

> ourselves. I personally like to believe that somewhere inside my Nada

> there is also a real mother, who wants me to be safe and happy, and who

> wants me to get away from her because she knows that the Nada-part of

> herself is hurting me and can't or won't stop. (This idea is actually gone

> into in pretty significant depth in a book called " Cutting Loose " , which is

> meant for all adult children who have troubled relationships with their

> parents; it suggests viewing your lousy parents as a combination of the

> " bad parent " -- who in this book is actually the childish side of your

> parent, which is selfish and wants to harm their children -- and the " good

> parent " , who is the adult who really does want what's best for their

> children.)

>

> Anyway, I believe that the part of my Nada where my " real mother " dwells

> would never, ever want to cause me pain, and would rather see me gone and

> away than see me stay and suffer, like most healthy parents would. That's

> the part of my Nada I want to respect, not that part that lashes out

> viciously at the tiniest of excuses.

>

> >

> > And two, if there is no treatment, or hope for change, does this mean our

> > relationship is over? It just seems so final. I can't completely comprehend

> > that this relationship is over, forever.

> >

> Well, you don't HAVE to go full NC; some people, particularly those whose

> Nadas are somewhat less badly affected, have a lot of success with the

> " medium chill " method, in which you minimize but do not break contact. You

> always have that choice.

>

> For that matter, you have the choice of staying in full contact with her

> and putting up with her abuse because you think it's the right thing to do

> -- no one makes that choice for you. If you want to stay and deal, stay.

> The one thing you should let go of, though, is the idea that your

> continuing such sacrifices is going to somehow " fix " your Nada or cause her

> to realize that " she really loves you " and spontaneously stop lashing out.

> That isn't going to happen. In fact, by sticking around, you're teaching

> your Nada that her being nasty to you is perfectly okay, and you give her

> no reason whatsoever to work toward helping herself. Some might call this

> enabling, but it's always, always your choice whether you want to do it or

> not.

>

> I suppose I've been asking myself, " was there ever really a relationship to

> > begin with? " I'm trying to let go of my resentment, and move forward, but I

> > still can't grasp that it's over for good. Maybe it is like an alcoholic,

> > who has to say no to that one drink because there never will be just one

> > drink.

> >

>

> I tend to think of it more as like being a smoker -- you've become addicted

> to something that sometimes give you short-term pleasure or relief, but it

> gives you long-term grief and damage, so you want to stop. But the pull of

> the short-term relief is strong, and you have to practice quitting,

> practice letting go. Few people can just give up cigarettes cold turkey -

> most take several tries to completely quit. Each time they try, they go a

> little longer without a smoke, or learn a new avoidance technique, until

> finally a critical threshold is reached and they can let the compulsion go.

>

> This may or may not eventually happen with you. If you don't feel ready to

> go full NC for some reason, then don't do it. You can go " medium chill " ,

> you can simply focus on working hard to set limits and boundaries

> (remembering that BPDs WILL break them), or you can just lie there and take

> whatever she dishes out, out of a sense of duty and a desire not to feel

> like an emotional orphan. All of these are options, and they all have

> their costs and benefits. You don't have to feel like you MUST do

> something that feels wrong for you personally just because most of us on

> the list are doing it. You're probably in a different place than we are,

> and your Nada is not our Nadas. Your situation is not ours.

>

> I would just suggest that you try to be clear on the ramifications and

> likely outcomes of various strategies for living with (or not living with)

> your Nada and her problems so that you don't get your hopes up unreasonably

> high and wind up getting them crushed repeatedly. Keep in mind that every

> Nada is an individual, and miracles do sometimes happen. What you see on

> this list is a description of what USUALLY happens with Nadas, of what is

> MOST OFTEN true about them. Your Nada may be an exception. That's always

> possible.

>

> But she may well NOT be an exception, so know what you're signing up for if

> you decide to stay in contact with her. Know what price may be exacted and

> be prepared to accept it. It's not fair to your Nada to expect her to

> change in ways she is probably simply not capable of changing, and then

> blame HER because you sacrificed for her and she failed to be grateful for

> it and change like you want. Remember DETACH: " Don't Even Try And Change

> Her. " If you decide to stick around and keep accepting any abuse she

> throws, don't blame HER that you didn't leave when you could. She's not

> making your choices for you. You are.

>

> -- Jen H.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Steve,

You say that you fear your nada doing various things. I find

that having a plan for how I'm going to deal with the things I

fear my nada might do helps to put the fears to rest to some

extent. For me, having a plan in advance allows me to know I'm

not going to have to figure out what to do in the middle of a

nasty situation when I'm too rushed and/or flustered to make the

right choices. If you're worried, reasonably or otherwise, that

she might just show up in various places and cause a scene, try

coming up with a plan to deal with her calmly if she does show

up in those places. Your plans might involve calmly saying

certain things to her, calling on others for help, locking

doors, etc. - whatever makes sense for each situation.

At 12:40 PM 12/02/2012 SteveM wrote:

>Hi Jenn, thank you. Again,s your posts, to & others have been

>helpful.

>

>It seems like the challenging part is to distinguish between my

>feelings for the loving person inside nada and my feelings for

>the bpd side of nada. And since, the bpd side is more present,

>more dominating, volatile and surprising, I live that

>relationship in fear.

>

>I have built so much anger & resentment over the years I lost,

>and the traits I've developed to overcompensate for nada's

>traits. However, I know that anger can cause me to be

>short-sighted, and often selfish, so I have to check in, make

>sure I'm not justifying my own shortcomings.

>

>You touched on something in your response about NC that brought

>something to my attention. I have always left & stayed away.

>The day after high school I moved away to college; the week

>after college, I moved across country for grad school. I have

>never lived closer than a 5 hour airplane ride to nada. Not

>interesting for the group purpose, I know, but I guess I

>learned that I have always had some sort of NC. Now it's

>deliberate. Is it empowering to make that stance? Will it

>always have a twinge of pain?

>

>I'm not hopeful that any sort of therapy will be met with

>acceptance, whether short or long term. I see and hear the

>embodiment of obstinance.

>

>I feel like a child. I'm 40 years old. I have an adult

>relationship with my father (my parents divorced when I was 4).

>But, I see the effects of bpd are that I still feel young,

>punishable, attention-starved, hopeful and terrorized--in my

>nada relationship. I have a very real fear that she'll just

>show up at my home or my job, unannounced and cause a big

>scene, or hurt me in some real way (i live on the other side of

>the country). I suppose that's why it's very important to have

>strong, clearly defined stances, not only in my relationship

>with nada, but also my relationship with myself when it comes

>to nada.

>

>Thank you for the idea that she does want me to be safe and

>secure. That's helpful. And thank you for letting me figure

>this out on paper.

>

>I don't want to be, or play the victim anymore. But I also

>don't want to cause any pain. This must be one of the big

>challenges for adults of nada's.

>

>Thank you,

>Steve

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Steve

I m 57, just this month. My Nada died in 2009. So I had a lifetime of

that relationship. It is a bit different for us than for our sisters,

having a Nada for a mom. But let me answer you a bit as another son of

a Nada.

> I have yet to find much information expressing any real treatment for

bpd, so it leaves me both confused and hurt.

Counselors will tell you that a BPD is the most difficult, resistant

patient they have. Many will restrict their practice to only 1 or maybe

2 BP clients at a time. They are very resistant, and while they can be

treated and find healing, my experience is that most do not, or do to a

very small degree, and thus struggle in relationships for their entire

lives.

>

> Even though nada says and does hurtful things, isn't there still a

person inside? If I choose NC, isn't there some part of her that has

genuine hurt, authentic loneliness?

Yes, Steve, she is still a person. Her disorder is torturous to her,

and she keeps herself in a hellish existance of morbid fear of loss of

relationships, and the self fulfilling prophecy because her actions so

damage and sabatoge her relationships. She is entirely as miserable as

are those who care for her.

This does not mean that you are bound by some sense of morality to

accept her damaging and hurtful actions and words because you know the

cause. While it is difficult for her to change, and accept that she is

the problem, it is not impossible. She is hard to treat, but not

untreatable. While she suffers a grave mental disorder, she is also the

one who makes the immature and destructive decisions.

You are the one who has the ablility to choose safe boundaries, safe

people, and healthy relationships in your life. Or, you can choose to

be Dorothy in the witches dungeon, or one of the guards living in fear

of the witch you are forced to serve. You can also get yourself a

bucket of water and go back to Kansas.

> And two, if there is no treatment, or hope for change, does this mean

our relationship is over? It just seems so final. I can't completely

comprehend that this relationship is over, forever.

You dont have to make that choice now. You are dead to me, its over

forever. That is what NC sounds like. It may be that way, but if so

then let that be her choice. Rather, your choice can be , Mom, I will

not accept behaviour A. If you do that, I will hang up the phone, walk

away, break off the conversation and go home. I will do so everytime

you violate that boundary.

You can choose to give her another chance, and perhaps she will

eventually , grudgingly , respect your boundary. She will feel like the

victim, and blame you, but she will learn that discussing your father s

sexual prefernces is a boundary violation and doing so will mean you go

away for a week. That is just one example. This sounds as if you are

trying to teach a spoiled 3 year old. And so you are. BP s are

emotional children. You can put in the effort to be the adult, and

decide what is acceptable and what is not. But if you dont enforce your

boundaries, she will , till the end of time, Dec 21, 2012, according to

the Mayans, violate them and impose her own needs and desires first, and

the hell with yours.

If you find it is too much work, you can decide to end the relationship.

I can t make that choice for you. I can tell you your choices are accept

her behaviors, reject her altogether, or build the fences and be the

adult in charge of keeping them strong. It wont be a perfect

relationship, nor will YOU ever have the power over her to force her to

change and heal, but you can try a managed relationship.

> I suppose I've been asking myself, " was there ever really a

relationship to begin with? " I'm trying to let go of my resentment, and

move forward, but I still can't grasp that it's over for good. Maybe it

is like an alcoholic, who has to say no to that one drink because there

never will be just one drink.

Yes, Steve, it is hard to accept that your relationship was always first

and foremost about what she needed from you, and not on unreserved love.

That is what we expect to have from our Mom, and hope one day to find in

a wife.

But that is not something a BP will ever give. It is always, all about

her.

Doug

[Guest guest]

Hello Steve,

You are asking meaningful questions. While I can not tell you the correct answer

for you, I can tell you about the path I took.

You asked if there is still a person inside. a nada. My theory is that children

certainly want their mothers to be strong, whole, and nurturing. As KO's, some

of us project these qualities upon our nadas idealizing them and living in the

forlorn hope that if we can just be perfect enough to never upset our nada

again, she will give us the love we crave. The problem with this is our own

twisted thinking. We have created a fantasy that will never come true.

As to the hurt and loneliness a nada may of may not feel, I can say that my nada

wallowed in even the smallest of slights. She was the type who " wasn't happy

until she was unhappy. " She did have emotions and feeling they were simply not

within her control. It is possible that seeking to control her emotions never

occurred to her.

As to the relationship being over, please ask yourself if it was ever really

there to begin with. I will no lie to you. This is a terrifying question to

face and is deeply painful. However, the question will not go away until you

face it.

You wrote of NC as being final. Please allow me to warn you that NC black or

white. You will set boundaries that will be broken. Sometimes a nada attempts to

contact you. Sometimes, as I chose when my grandfather past and my Aunt could

not reach my nada, you will select to contact her. In my experience, the

contacts are brief, painful, and unfulfilling. I chose NC as a method of self

preservation. I do not regret it. I know what my life would have been if I had

attempted to maintain contact. The part of NC that I was unprepared for was the

fact that even her death was not " final. " the Issues of claiming her body ( I

was the only child), the probate of her will, and the demands of her siblings

have caused me have to face pain and emotion I had believed to be resulved. In

my experience, dealing with a BPD parent will not only last their entire life

but yours as well. On this note, I would urge you to work on addressing your

own need and let the rest of the matter fall as it may. You have the right to

attempt contact when you feel conditions merit it and the right to go NC to

protect yourself when you must.

Beth

Two confusing parts about bpd's

I have yet to find much information expressing any real treatment for bpd, so

it leaves me both confused and hurt.

Even though nada says and does hurtful things, isn't there still a person

inside? If I choose NC, isn't there some part of her that has genuine hurt,

authentic loneliness?

And two, if there is no treatment, or hope for change, does this mean our

relationship is over? It just seems so final. I can't completely comprehend that

this relationship is over, forever.

I suppose I've been asking myself, " was there ever really a relationship to

begin with? " I'm trying to let go of my resentment, and move forward, but I

still can't grasp that it's over for good. Maybe it is like an alcoholic, who

has to say no to that one drink because there never will be just one drink.

Steve M.