Guest guest Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 Hi everyone, last night it occurred to me what a terrible breach of their civic duties my nada and narcissist father had committed. It's not just that they left me floundering defenseless in the world--it's that they actually, actively tried to HARM me in the ways that (it seems to me) parents should be responsible for their children. I'm not saying that it's always this way for the 'mother' (i.e, I'm not saying that it's gender specific). But, my nada would have been in a position to help me learn to connect to others--specifically by maintaining a healthy appearance that helped with social connections, and by behaving in a nurturing and/or affectionate manner that also would have helped me CONNECT, and have the safety in said connections. Instead, my nada made it her life mission to KEEP me from doing this--she tried to make me act, feel and be, 'ugly' and 'undesirable'. All my social skills I learned from myself or others. My narcissist father was in a position to provide me with physical safety and security, and material as well, and then to train me or help me find it myself. Instead, HE did the opposite, intentionally depriving me as a tool of control, and actually being violent HIMSELF, so that we were scared in our own household. I really just find this to be obscene. It seems to me that when children are bought into the world, among other things there is created a basic responsibility to raise them in a way so that they can connect and contribute to society--and also, of course, to SURVIVE, on a basic level. For me, my survival instinct has been crystal clear: get AWAY from them. They are trying to keep you from basic human safety. I have always known this. Unfortunately I also have to battle with a basic, pre-verbal human instinct that tells me to 'connect' to my parents, or I will die. My whole life, I have been in an existential Catch-22. Part of me says, connect to you parents, or you will die. The other (WISE) part of me says, sever from your parents, or you will die. What I am trying hard to do now is replace the voice that's wrong. But it's not easy. That's my lightbulb moment for the day! Best, Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 Thanks for this! I have been thinking about this stuff too. I'm so obsessed. All the people with personality disorders in my life I have loved sincerely and truly and I have seen that there is a suffering mentally ill person in there and I have felt enormous compassion and that love has caused hellish anguish. Being connected to these sick people would have lead to a premature death for me had I not escaped. I still miss them and love them and see the child in there that wants to be loved but that child knows that no matter what they will ruin all relationships and the people that love them will be forced to flee to save themselves. I was crying today about this, mental illness is so sad. My mother and fathers family are pretty much all mentally ill. There is a range of humanness there. There's one woman in my mother's family who's been in and out of mental hospitals. Last I spoke to her she was in love with " lucifer " . This is the one woman on that maternal side who tried to save me from my mother. And yet I can't talk to her because it just hurts too much and it wrecks me. So many others that I have loved and still love (though I wish I didn't!) who are trapped inside a hellish mental prison. I have to leave them behind. Even if they couldn't really see me or love me or perceive me accurately, it's so sad I had to leave them all when I really felt love for them. This is so hard! There's a part of me that's just like them, all shrivelled and black and suffering, I could really connected with it. I really feel like a nice person who got bit with vampirism. On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 2:38 PM, charlottehoneychurch < charlottehoneychurch@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hi everyone, last night it occurred to me what a terrible breach of their > civic duties my nada and narcissist father had committed. It's not just > that they left me floundering defenseless in the world--it's that they > actually, actively tried to HARM me in the ways that (it seems to me) > parents should be responsible for their children. > > I'm not saying that it's always this way for the 'mother' (i.e, I'm not > saying that it's gender specific). But, my nada would have been in a > position to help me learn to connect to others--specifically by maintaining > a healthy appearance that helped with social connections, and by behaving > in a nurturing and/or affectionate manner that also would have helped me > CONNECT, and have the safety in said connections. Instead, my nada made it > her life mission to KEEP me from doing this--she tried to make me act, feel > and be, 'ugly' and 'undesirable'. All my social skills I learned from > myself or others. > > My narcissist father was in a position to provide me with physical safety > and security, and material as well, and then to train me or help me find it > myself. Instead, HE did the opposite, intentionally depriving me as a tool > of control, and actually being violent HIMSELF, so that we were scared in > our own household. > > I really just find this to be obscene. It seems to me that when children > are bought into the world, among other things there is created a basic > responsibility to raise them in a way so that they can connect and > contribute to society--and also, of course, to SURVIVE, on a basic level. > For me, my survival instinct has been crystal clear: get AWAY from them. > They are trying to keep you from basic human safety. I have always known > this. > > Unfortunately I also have to battle with a basic, pre-verbal human > instinct that tells me to 'connect' to my parents, or I will die. My whole > life, I have been in an existential Catch-22. Part of me says, connect to > you parents, or you will die. The other (WISE) part of me says, sever from > your parents, or you will die. What I am trying hard to do now is replace > the voice that's wrong. But it's not easy. > > That's my lightbulb moment for the day! > > Best, > Charlie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 I think that's an important insight and one I have felt myself. That " torn in two " feeling: as a small dependent child, I was biologically impelled to bond with my own mother, who was *supposed* to bond with me in return, but who actually didn't like me because she genuinely believed that I hated and rejected her (due to her borderline pd delusional thinking and paranoia.) I think my mother was too mentally ill to be raising a child; and I had no option but to attempt to bond with a crazy person. The way I feel about it: its just as wrong to leave a baby to be raised by someone who is likely to emotionally and physically abuse the child as it is to leave a baby with a pedophile parent who is likely to sexually exploit his or her own child. Its just wrong, just as obscene and just as tragic. Children should be raised by people who want them and who have the basic qualifications to be a " good enough " parent. I was emotionally abandoned at birth; it explains why I always identified strongly with stories about orphans. I was resented; that explains why my nada felt entitled and justified to scream at me that I was an " ingrate " as she punished me for oh, any reason. My nada would announce from time to time that she was thinking about taking me to the orphanage and leaving me there because she just didn't know what to do with me. Being resented and disliked, being treated with a bewildering mix of rage, physical violence, and quasi-sexual abuse alternating with kindly, mothering behavior also explains why I " broke " , and ended up becoming trauma-bonded to my nada, who was both my full-time care provider and my tormentor. And like your nada, mine made sure that I did not have the opportunity to form close, trusting relationships with other adults. Its not hard to guess why; if I felt real trust for a mother-substitute (one of my aunts or a neighbor, etc.) I might speak of what my nada did to me and my Sister at home, in private, behind closed doors. So, yes, I can relate to your insight, really well. -Annie > > Hi everyone, last night it occurred to me what a terrible breach of their civic duties my nada and narcissist father had committed. It's not just that they left me floundering defenseless in the world--it's that they actually, actively tried to HARM me in the ways that (it seems to me) parents should be responsible for their children. > > I'm not saying that it's always this way for the 'mother' (i.e, I'm not saying that it's gender specific). But, my nada would have been in a position to help me learn to connect to others--specifically by maintaining a healthy appearance that helped with social connections, and by behaving in a nurturing and/or affectionate manner that also would have helped me CONNECT, and have the safety in said connections. Instead, my nada made it her life mission to KEEP me from doing this--she tried to make me act, feel and be, 'ugly' and 'undesirable'. All my social skills I learned from myself or others. > > My narcissist father was in a position to provide me with physical safety and security, and material as well, and then to train me or help me find it myself. Instead, HE did the opposite, intentionally depriving me as a tool of control, and actually being violent HIMSELF, so that we were scared in our own household. > > I really just find this to be obscene. It seems to me that when children are bought into the world, among other things there is created a basic responsibility to raise them in a way so that they can connect and contribute to society--and also, of course, to SURVIVE, on a basic level. For me, my survival instinct has been crystal clear: get AWAY from them. They are trying to keep you from basic human safety. I have always known this. > > Unfortunately I also have to battle with a basic, pre-verbal human instinct that tells me to 'connect' to my parents, or I will die. My whole life, I have been in an existential Catch-22. Part of me says, connect to you parents, or you will die. The other (WISE) part of me says, sever from your parents, or you will die. What I am trying hard to do now is replace the voice that's wrong. But it's not easy. > > That's my lightbulb moment for the day! > > Best, > Charlie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 Thanks Annie and Millicent for your replies. This is such an important theme for me. Millicent, I think that the biological imperative to 'connect' to parents is just especially difficult to overcome. I read on Pete 's site that it's very much an animal instinct--we as babies, like any other baby mammal, know that if we are abadoned by our parents we are literally prey for predator animals. So we are programmed to panic when abandoned by them--whether it be physical, emotional, or all ways (like my terrible nada). It pains me to think of any baby shrieking in terror and discovering that nada was just, *never coming. I think that the inability to fully overcome this physical need constantly plagues me, and even when I am feeling secure and successful, I still always have a little baseline feeling, that something is 'wrong'. That I am being a 'bad' girl. And that may never change. It really is a Catch 22--and I chose the 'death' where I get to be free of nada's torments and be myself, and be free from manipulation and being 'forced' to lie and mislead all the time. Annie--I don't think you 'broke' at all! I think only Cluster Bs are the ones who break, because they lose the empathy that makes one human. Other spectrums--addiction, co-dependence, dissociation/ptsd--I think that those are ways to grow up with a nada but still keep our hearts intact. That is very much a JUDGMENT on my part I know--but I am no longer in contact with nada so I get to express my opinions now without fear of an attempt of anyone to 'annihilate' me--right? Thanks, Charlie > > > > Hi everyone, last night it occurred to me what a terrible breach of their civic duties my nada and narcissist father had committed. It's not just that they left me floundering defenseless in the world--it's that they actually, actively tried to HARM me in the ways that (it seems to me) parents should be responsible for their children. > > > > I'm not saying that it's always this way for the 'mother' (i.e, I'm not saying that it's gender specific). But, my nada would have been in a position to help me learn to connect to others--specifically by maintaining a healthy appearance that helped with social connections, and by behaving in a nurturing and/or affectionate manner that also would have helped me CONNECT, and have the safety in said connections. Instead, my nada made it her life mission to KEEP me from doing this--she tried to make me act, feel and be, 'ugly' and 'undesirable'. All my social skills I learned from myself or others. > > > > My narcissist father was in a position to provide me with physical safety and security, and material as well, and then to train me or help me find it myself. Instead, HE did the opposite, intentionally depriving me as a tool of control, and actually being violent HIMSELF, so that we were scared in our own household. > > > > I really just find this to be obscene. It seems to me that when children are bought into the world, among other things there is created a basic responsibility to raise them in a way so that they can connect and contribute to society--and also, of course, to SURVIVE, on a basic level. For me, my survival instinct has been crystal clear: get AWAY from them. They are trying to keep you from basic human safety. I have always known this. > > > > Unfortunately I also have to battle with a basic, pre-verbal human instinct that tells me to 'connect' to my parents, or I will die. My whole life, I have been in an existential Catch-22. Part of me says, connect to you parents, or you will die. The other (WISE) part of me says, sever from your parents, or you will die. What I am trying hard to do now is replace the voice that's wrong. But it's not easy. > > > > That's my lightbulb moment for the day! > > > > Best, > > Charlie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 This has been my struggle this week too. Nada and my flying monkey sister (I have 5 sisters, so I often talk about them being awesome) have been really putting pressure on me to " forgive " and go back to normal, and there tends to be a lot of lessons at church, about forgiveness this time of year... I find it very hard to want so much to find a way to be strong enough to tolerate her behavior and keep boundaries etc. and it being almost impossible for me to offer. My step grandpa died last week. Nada called. she wanted so much to be comforted by me. (he married her mom only about 15 years ago.) I really wanted to, but could not do it. hearing her voice is enough to wash me in guilt, and remind me that I will never really have a functional relationship with her. It is crushing to have her commanding me to " forgive " her, when it is all I want to do. even if I forgive her I am pretty sure things would never go back to " normal " a fact which I have tried rather lamely to make clear. forgiveness requires will power, time, and strength. reconciliation requires penitence, and restitution, none of which she wants to give. I have told her I don't trust her, to which she replies that she " can't imagine what could have caused that. " and insists that I should trust her. in the end I think people assume it is something you decide one day. I don't agree with that and I think that line of thinking just makes us depressed, and feel ashamed that we are too weak. I want to forgive,and I will, but it would make a world of difference if she would take responsibility for the hurt she caused. all of the work in that relationship is on me, and no I am not ready to take that on. I am barley starting to forgive, working out the past is too much to handle for me to deal with her in the present. and in spite of the self righteous tirades I receive, that is how it is. it really is a battle of instincts. and I agree that you were only trying to protect yourself in the only ways you could. it is sad that we were forced into a corner like that, but nothing is permanent. we truly can heal. I really believe that. have a wonderful Christmas Meikjn > > > > > > Hi everyone, last night it occurred to me what a terrible breach of their civic duties my nada and narcissist father had committed. It's not just that they left me floundering defenseless in the world--it's that they actually, actively tried to HARM me in the ways that (it seems to me) parents should be responsible for their children. > > > > > > I'm not saying that it's always this way for the 'mother' (i.e, I'm not saying that it's gender specific). But, my nada would have been in a position to help me learn to connect to others--specifically by maintaining a healthy appearance that helped with social connections, and by behaving in a nurturing and/or affectionate manner that also would have helped me CONNECT, and have the safety in said connections. Instead, my nada made it her life mission to KEEP me from doing this--she tried to make me act, feel and be, 'ugly' and 'undesirable'. All my social skills I learned from myself or others. > > > > > > My narcissist father was in a position to provide me with physical safety and security, and material as well, and then to train me or help me find it myself. Instead, HE did the opposite, intentionally depriving me as a tool of control, and actually being violent HIMSELF, so that we were scared in our own household. > > > > > > I really just find this to be obscene. It seems to me that when children are bought into the world, among other things there is created a basic responsibility to raise them in a way so that they can connect and contribute to society--and also, of course, to SURVIVE, on a basic level. For me, my survival instinct has been crystal clear: get AWAY from them. They are trying to keep you from basic human safety. I have always known this. > > > > > > Unfortunately I also have to battle with a basic, pre-verbal human instinct that tells me to 'connect' to my parents, or I will die. My whole life, I have been in an existential Catch-22. Part of me says, connect to you parents, or you will die. The other (WISE) part of me says, sever from your parents, or you will die. What I am trying hard to do now is replace the voice that's wrong. But it's not easy. > > > > > > That's my lightbulb moment for the day! > > > > > > Best, > > > Charlie > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 ((hugs for you Millicent, I am so sorry for you, but you are strong and so deserve to be HAPPY!!) Re: NC is a Survival Instinct Thanks for this! I have been thinking about this stuff too. I'm so obsessed. All the people with personality disorders in my life I have loved sincerely and truly and I have seen that there is a suffering mentally ill person in there and I have felt enormous compassion and that love has caused hellish anguish. Being connected to these sick people would have lead to a premature death for me had I not escaped. I still miss them and love them and see the child in there that wants to be loved but that child knows that no matter what they will ruin all relationships and the people that love them will be forced to flee to save themselves. I was crying today about this, mental illness is so sad. My mother and fathers family are pretty much all mentally ill. There is a range of humanness there. There's one woman in my mother's family who's been in and out of mental hospitals. Last I spoke to her she was in love with " lucifer " . This is the one woman on that maternal side who tried to save me from my mother. And yet I can't talk to her because it just hurts too much and it wrecks me. So many others that I have loved and still love (though I wish I didn't!) who are trapped inside a hellish mental prison. I have to leave them behind. Even if they couldn't really see me or love me or perceive me accurately, it's so sad I had to leave them all when I really felt love for them. This is so hard! There's a part of me that's just like them, all shrivelled and black and suffering, I could really connected with it. I really feel like a nice person who got bit with vampirism. On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 2:38 PM, charlottehoneychurch < charlottehoneychurch@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hi everyone, last night it occurred to me what a terrible breach of > their civic duties my nada and narcissist father had committed. It's > not just that they left me floundering defenseless in the world--it's > that they actually, actively tried to HARM me in the ways that (it > seems to me) parents should be responsible for their children. > > I'm not saying that it's always this way for the 'mother' (i.e, I'm > not saying that it's gender specific). But, my nada would have been in > a position to help me learn to connect to others--specifically by > maintaining a healthy appearance that helped with social connections, > and by behaving in a nurturing and/or affectionate manner that also > would have helped me CONNECT, and have the safety in said connections. > Instead, my nada made it her life mission to KEEP me from doing > this--she tried to make me act, feel and be, 'ugly' and 'undesirable'. > All my social skills I learned from myself or others. > > My narcissist father was in a position to provide me with physical > safety and security, and material as well, and then to train me or > help me find it myself. Instead, HE did the opposite, intentionally > depriving me as a tool of control, and actually being violent HIMSELF, > so that we were scared in our own household. > > I really just find this to be obscene. It seems to me that when > children are bought into the world, among other things there is > created a basic responsibility to raise them in a way so that they can > connect and contribute to society--and also, of course, to SURVIVE, on a basic level. > For me, my survival instinct has been crystal clear: get AWAY from them. > They are trying to keep you from basic human safety. I have always > known this. > > Unfortunately I also have to battle with a basic, pre-verbal human > instinct that tells me to 'connect' to my parents, or I will die. My > whole life, I have been in an existential Catch-22. Part of me says, > connect to you parents, or you will die. The other (WISE) part of me > says, sever from your parents, or you will die. What I am trying hard > to do now is replace the voice that's wrong. But it's not easy. > > That's my lightbulb moment for the day! > > Best, > Charlie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 Charlie, You're absolutely right. They set you up to fail as a person, quite fundamentally. It's a credit to you that you have friends and can hold down a job. (Not exaggerating there.) If narcissists ran the world, the species would die out pretty fast. Have you tried not thinking of them as your parents? It worked for me. Parents are people who have nurtured you and taken care of you. That's not any of my blood relatives. Take care, Ashana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 Thanks so much Twyla! At least we understand each other. This group really helps. > ** > > > ((hugs for you Millicent, I am so sorry for you, but you are strong and so > deserve to be HAPPY!!) > > Re: NC is a Survival Instinct > > Thanks for this! I have been thinking about this stuff too. I'm so > obsessed. > All the people with personality disorders in my life I have loved sincerely > and truly and I have seen that there is a suffering mentally ill person in > there and I have felt enormous compassion and that love has caused hellish > anguish. Being connected to these sick people would have lead to a > premature > death for me had I not escaped. I still miss them and love them and see the > child in there that wants to be loved but that child knows that no matter > what they will ruin all relationships and the people that love them will be > forced to flee to save themselves. I was crying today about this, mental > illness is so sad. > > My mother and fathers family are pretty much all mentally ill. There is a > range of humanness there. There's one woman in my mother's family who's > been > in and out of mental hospitals. Last I spoke to her she was in love with > " lucifer " . This is the one woman on that maternal side who tried to save me > from my mother. And yet I can't talk to her because it just hurts too much > and it wrecks me. So many others that I have loved and still love (though I > wish I didn't!) who are trapped inside a hellish mental prison. I have to > leave them behind. Even if they couldn't really see me or love me or > perceive me accurately, it's so sad I had to leave them all when I really > felt love for them. This is so hard! > > There's a part of me that's just like them, all shrivelled and black and > suffering, I could really connected with it. I really feel like a nice > person who got bit with vampirism. > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 2:38 PM, charlottehoneychurch < > charlottehoneychurch@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Hi everyone, last night it occurred to me what a terrible breach of > > their civic duties my nada and narcissist father had committed. It's > > not just that they left me floundering defenseless in the world--it's > > that they actually, actively tried to HARM me in the ways that (it > > seems to me) parents should be responsible for their children. > > > > I'm not saying that it's always this way for the 'mother' (i.e, I'm > > not saying that it's gender specific). But, my nada would have been in > > a position to help me learn to connect to others--specifically by > > maintaining a healthy appearance that helped with social connections, > > and by behaving in a nurturing and/or affectionate manner that also > > would have helped me CONNECT, and have the safety in said connections. > > Instead, my nada made it her life mission to KEEP me from doing > > this--she tried to make me act, feel and be, 'ugly' and 'undesirable'. > > All my social skills I learned from myself or others. > > > > My narcissist father was in a position to provide me with physical > > safety and security, and material as well, and then to train me or > > help me find it myself. Instead, HE did the opposite, intentionally > > depriving me as a tool of control, and actually being violent HIMSELF, > > so that we were scared in our own household. > > > > I really just find this to be obscene. It seems to me that when > > children are bought into the world, among other things there is > > created a basic responsibility to raise them in a way so that they can > > connect and contribute to society--and also, of course, to SURVIVE, on a > basic level. > > For me, my survival instinct has been crystal clear: get AWAY from them. > > They are trying to keep you from basic human safety. I have always > > known this. > > > > Unfortunately I also have to battle with a basic, pre-verbal human > > instinct that tells me to 'connect' to my parents, or I will die. My > > whole life, I have been in an existential Catch-22. Part of me says, > > connect to you parents, or you will die. The other (WISE) part of me > > says, sever from your parents, or you will die. What I am trying hard > > to do now is replace the voice that's wrong. But it's not easy. > > > > That's my lightbulb moment for the day! > > > > Best, > > Charlie > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 Omg yes! It is so helpful...it is almost scary to read the parallels even in the phrases they use...to-the-word accuracy. Enough for tonight. I am putting more time into ME now as much as I can. Re: NC is a Survival Instinct > > Thanks for this! I have been thinking about this stuff too. I'm so > obsessed. > All the people with personality disorders in my life I have loved > sincerely and truly and I have seen that there is a suffering mentally > ill person in there and I have felt enormous compassion and that love > has caused hellish anguish. Being connected to these sick people would > have lead to a premature death for me had I not escaped. I still miss > them and love them and see the child in there that wants to be loved > but that child knows that no matter what they will ruin all > relationships and the people that love them will be forced to flee to > save themselves. I was crying today about this, mental illness is so > sad. > > My mother and fathers family are pretty much all mentally ill. There > is a range of humanness there. There's one woman in my mother's family > who's been in and out of mental hospitals. Last I spoke to her she was > in love with " lucifer " . This is the one woman on that maternal side > who tried to save me from my mother. And yet I can't talk to her > because it just hurts too much and it wrecks me. So many others that I > have loved and still love (though I wish I didn't!) who are trapped > inside a hellish mental prison. I have to leave them behind. Even if > they couldn't really see me or love me or perceive me accurately, it's > so sad I had to leave them all when I really felt love for them. This > is so hard! > > There's a part of me that's just like them, all shrivelled and black > and suffering, I could really connected with it. I really feel like a > nice person who got bit with vampirism. > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 2:38 PM, charlottehoneychurch < > charlottehoneychurch@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Hi everyone, last night it occurred to me what a terrible breach of > > their civic duties my nada and narcissist father had committed. It's > > not just that they left me floundering defenseless in the > > world--it's that they actually, actively tried to HARM me in the > > ways that (it seems to me) parents should be responsible for their children. > > > > I'm not saying that it's always this way for the 'mother' (i.e, I'm > > not saying that it's gender specific). But, my nada would have been > > in a position to help me learn to connect to others--specifically by > > maintaining a healthy appearance that helped with social > > connections, and by behaving in a nurturing and/or affectionate > > manner that also would have helped me CONNECT, and have the safety in said connections. > > Instead, my nada made it her life mission to KEEP me from doing > > this--she tried to make me act, feel and be, 'ugly' and 'undesirable'. > > All my social skills I learned from myself or others. > > > > My narcissist father was in a position to provide me with physical > > safety and security, and material as well, and then to train me or > > help me find it myself. Instead, HE did the opposite, intentionally > > depriving me as a tool of control, and actually being violent > > HIMSELF, so that we were scared in our own household. > > > > I really just find this to be obscene. It seems to me that when > > children are bought into the world, among other things there is > > created a basic responsibility to raise them in a way so that they > > can connect and contribute to society--and also, of course, to > > SURVIVE, on a > basic level. > > For me, my survival instinct has been crystal clear: get AWAY from them. > > They are trying to keep you from basic human safety. I have always > > known this. > > > > Unfortunately I also have to battle with a basic, pre-verbal human > > instinct that tells me to 'connect' to my parents, or I will die. My > > whole life, I have been in an existential Catch-22. Part of me says, > > connect to you parents, or you will die. The other (WISE) part of me > > says, sever from your parents, or you will die. What I am trying > > hard to do now is replace the voice that's wrong. But it's not easy. > > > > That's my lightbulb moment for the day! > > > > Best, > > Charlie > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2012 Report Share Posted December 11, 2012 Charlie, you said: " It is crushing to have her commanding me to " forgive " her, when it is all I want to do. even if I forgive her I am pretty sure things would never go back to " normal " a fact which I have tried rather lamely to make clear. forgiveness requires will power, time, and strength. reconciliation requires penitence, and restitution, none of which she wants to give. I have told her I don't trust her, to which she replies that she " can't imagine what could have caused that. " and insists that I should trust her. " I really relate to this and find that my forgiveness was met with the recurrence of her abusive patterns. Every time you forgive, she starts to misses the drama (even her non verbal behavior betrays how boring good news are) and stabs me in the back at the first chance she can create. To to your list I would add that for forgiveness to take place it also requires consistency, integrity, and trustworthiness a few of the things that are totally alien to her. C. > > Hi everyone, last night it occurred to me what a terrible breach of their civic duties my nada and narcissist father had committed. It's not just that they left me floundering defenseless in the world--it's that they actually, actively tried to HARM me in the ways that (it seems to me) parents should be responsible for their children. > > I'm not saying that it's always this way for the 'mother' (i.e, I'm not saying that it's gender specific). But, my nada would have been in a position to help me learn to connect to others--specifically by maintaining a healthy appearance that helped with social connections, and by behaving in a nurturing and/or affectionate manner that also would have helped me CONNECT, and have the safety in said connections. Instead, my nada made it her life mission to KEEP me from doing this--she tried to make me act, feel and be, 'ugly' and 'undesirable'. All my social skills I learned from myself or others. > > My narcissist father was in a position to provide me with physical safety and security, and material as well, and then to train me or help me find it myself. Instead, HE did the opposite, intentionally depriving me as a tool of control, and actually being violent HIMSELF, so that we were scared in our own household. > > I really just find this to be obscene. It seems to me that when children are bought into the world, among other things there is created a basic responsibility to raise them in a way so that they can connect and contribute to society--and also, of course, to SURVIVE, on a basic level. For me, my survival instinct has been crystal clear: get AWAY from them. They are trying to keep you from basic human safety. I have always known this. > > Unfortunately I also have to battle with a basic, pre-verbal human instinct that tells me to 'connect' to my parents, or I will die. My whole life, I have been in an existential Catch-22. Part of me says, connect to you parents, or you will die. The other (WISE) part of me says, sever from your parents, or you will die. What I am trying hard to do now is replace the voice that's wrong. But it's not easy. > > That's my lightbulb moment for the day! > > Best, > Charlie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 Hi C, Thanks for your input. Actually it was Millicent who wrote those words below. I know that forgiveness is something that a lot of people on the board need to talk about. In my case, though, I haven't dealt much in the concepts of forgiveness and whether or not nada " deserves " forgiveness from me...Real or no, my experience of the danger caused by both parents was extreme. And, as one therapist once observed, you don't " forgive " a buzz saw driving towards your head. You just. Get out of the way. > > > > Hi everyone, last night it occurred to me what a terrible breach of their civic duties my nada and narcissist father had committed. It's not just that they left me floundering defenseless in the world--it's that they actually, actively tried to HARM me in the ways that (it seems to me) parents should be responsible for their children. > > > > I'm not saying that it's always this way for the 'mother' (i.e, I'm not saying that it's gender specific). But, my nada would have been in a position to help me learn to connect to others--specifically by maintaining a healthy appearance that helped with social connections, and by behaving in a nurturing and/or affectionate manner that also would have helped me CONNECT, and have the safety in said connections. Instead, my nada made it her life mission to KEEP me from doing this--she tried to make me act, feel and be, 'ugly' and 'undesirable'. All my social skills I learned from myself or others. > > > > My narcissist father was in a position to provide me with physical safety and security, and material as well, and then to train me or help me find it myself. Instead, HE did the opposite, intentionally depriving me as a tool of control, and actually being violent HIMSELF, so that we were scared in our own household. > > > > I really just find this to be obscene. It seems to me that when children are bought into the world, among other things there is created a basic responsibility to raise them in a way so that they can connect and contribute to society--and also, of course, to SURVIVE, on a basic level. For me, my survival instinct has been crystal clear: get AWAY from them. They are trying to keep you from basic human safety. I have always known this. > > > > Unfortunately I also have to battle with a basic, pre-verbal human instinct that tells me to 'connect' to my parents, or I will die. My whole life, I have been in an existential Catch-22. Part of me says, connect to you parents, or you will die. The other (WISE) part of me says, sever from your parents, or you will die. What I am trying hard to do now is replace the voice that's wrong. But it's not easy. > > > > That's my lightbulb moment for the day! > > > > Best, > > Charlie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 Thanks for the support, Ash! The instinct to feel I am " bad " and that something is " wrong " because I am NC is very strong. It doesn't help that nada and narcississt-father are both desperate every second of the day for me to be in touch. I don't know why they can't just find another " worthless " punching bag. Maybe it's biological for them, too. --Charlie > > Charlie, > > You're absolutely right. They set you up to fail as a person, quite fundamentally. It's a credit to you that you have friends and can hold down a job. (Not exaggerating there.) If narcissists ran the world, the species would die out pretty fast. > > Have you tried not thinking of them as your parents? It worked for me. Parents are people who have nurtured you and taken care of you. That's not any of my blood relatives. > > Take care, > Ashana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Charlie, I strong suspect that they are only desperate to be in touch with you when you talk to them or when they have some indirect way of communicating that to you. When they aren't reminded of you, they get their supply in some other way and forget all about you. Narcissists are very much out of sight out of mind. But the brainwashing can take a long time to disappear. You remember their displayed desperation from previous periods of contact, but they were essentially lying. If you've ever been around a very young toddler, they cry and have tantrums like the world will end for them when they don't get what they want. But often you can wave a shiny object in front of them, and they are suddenly completely absorbed in that. I think of nadas and fadas as being a lot like that. Narcissists have shallow, short-lived emotions. The bpd element can add an intensity to the emotional experience, but I still think when there is a mix of bpd/npd the emotions are still pretty short-lived. They definitely can't sustain a mental image of a person long enough to maintain a real attachment. Feeling " bad " about the nc can be as much about memory of how you were made to feel as a child when you didn't give the narcissists enough supply as it is about the present. Maybe I'm wrong, but if that thinking helps, you are welcome to it. It's tough to live through these difficult emotions. Take care, Ashana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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