CT shootings

[Guest guest]

I need a question answered. A news anchor mentioned that at least two sources

had mentioned that the shooter in today's tragedy, had a " personality disorder "

but then said that it was Autism. I didn't think that Autism fell into the

spectrum of personality disorders. Could someone please address this? Annie, I

know you have a considerable understanding of diagnosises. I am confused.

C

[Guest guest]

My un-psyche-educated opinion.

Autism - not a chance, most autistic people on every spectrum of autism are

far too withdrawn and not violent as a group (at least not on this level)

PD (personality disorder) - wow, can run the gamut from borderline to

narcissistic to psychopathic. all are capable of extreme behavior.

This - this goes into another place. probably PD, probably psychotic but NOT

autistic.

Best

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of CmeBfree

Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 9:03 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: CT shootings

I need a question answered. A news anchor mentioned that at least two

sources had mentioned that the shooter in today's tragedy, had a

" personality disorder " but then said that it was Autism. I didn't think that

Autism fell into the spectrum of personality disorders. Could someone please

address this? Annie, I know you have a considerable understanding of

diagnosises. I am confused.

C

[Guest guest]

Autism is not a personality disorder and most autistic people are not

violent. However, in a few of them, frustration can lead to limited

interpersonal violence (hitting, kicking, scratching.) But as far as I

know, planning and carrying out a massacre like this one would be

completely impossible for an autistic person.

Personality disordered individuals are, in contrast, quite capable of doing

things like this, because their intellects are fully functional but their

emotional/social wiring can be massively messed up and lead to violence

pretty easily. Not that all PD individuals are violent, just that a violent

PD individual would be quite capable of a massacre like this, unlike an

autistic person. Quite a few personality disorders involve lowered or

absent empathy for others, and you pretty much have to have zero empathy to

decide to go murder 20 kindergarteners.

Psychosis is harder to call. Psychosis isn't the same things as psychopathy

(psychology has a real problem with too many similar names...). A psychosis

is an actual break with reality, most often seen in schizophrenic

individuals who have hallucinations and delusions. Most schizophrenics are

not violent at all, but a paranoid subtype schizophrenic might be capable

of violence, although usually their thinking is too disordered for them to

plan and carry out mass murder. Violent schizophrenics are more known for

personal attacks directed at the people they think are trying to harm them

or are causing their hallucinations, so they might kill one or two people

when disassociated from reality, but generally not large numbers.

Psychosis can also result from a manic high (or a similar drug-induced

amphetamine or PCP high) but classic manics aren't generally violent

(although there is a push to recategorize some types of mania as " irritable

type " , in which the mania causes rages and violence rather than the more

stereotypical grandiosity and impulsivity -- there's a lot of argument over

whether that's actually a valid " mania " or not though. Some folks say that

too many things are currently being lumped into " mania " because bipolar has

become such a popular diagnosis.)

Someone on a meth or cocaine or PCP high might become violent but again,

probably on a limited scale because they're too agitated to plan well and

carry out a methodical mass murder like this one.

In short, psychosis is not terribly likely to be involved in a case like

this because being that mentally disordered makes it hard to plan

methodically. On the other hand, Ted Kaczynski was able to build

complicated mail bombs while schizophrenic, so for rare individuals it

might be possible, sadly.

-- Jen H.

On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 9:14 PM, Manning michelle@...>wrote:

> **

>

>

> My un-psyche-educated opinion.

>

> Autism - not a chance, most autistic people on every spectrum of autism are

> far too withdrawn and not violent as a group (at least not on this level)

>

> PD (personality disorder) - wow, can run the gamut from borderline to

> narcissistic to psychopathic. all are capable of extreme behavior.

>

> This - this goes into another place. probably PD, probably psychotic but

> NOT

> autistic.

>

> Best

>

>

>

> From: WTOAdultChildren1

> [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of CmeBfree

> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 9:03 PM

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Subject: CT shootings

>

>

> I need a question answered. A news anchor mentioned that at least two

> sources had mentioned that the shooter in today's tragedy, had a

> " personality disorder " but then said that it was Autism. I didn't think

> that

> Autism fell into the spectrum of personality disorders. Could someone

> please

> address this? Annie, I know you have a considerable understanding of

> diagnosises. I am confused.

>

> C

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you. I knew I wasn't ompletely out of left field. I think perhaps the

reporter mis-spoke and was not as well informed as most of us on this site.

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > My un-psyche-educated opinion.

> >

> > Autism - not a chance, most autistic people on every spectrum of autism are

> > far too withdrawn and not violent as a group (at least not on this level)

> >

> > PD (personality disorder) - wow, can run the gamut from borderline to

> > narcissistic to psychopathic. all are capable of extreme behavior.

> >

> > This - this goes into another place. probably PD, probably psychotic but

> > NOT

> > autistic.

> >

> > Best

> >

> >

> >

> > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of CmeBfree

> > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 9:03 PM

> > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > Subject: CT shootings

> >

> >

> > I need a question answered. A news anchor mentioned that at least two

> > sources had mentioned that the shooter in today's tragedy, had a

> > " personality disorder " but then said that it was Autism. I didn't think

> > that

> > Autism fell into the spectrum of personality disorders. Could someone

> > please

> > address this? Annie, I know you have a considerable understanding of

> > diagnosises. I am confused.

> >

> > C

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

and have pretty much nailed the answer I would give you. And

yes, the general public (including reporters) do not seem to be very familiar

with the various kinds of mental illnesses, how they are currently categorized,

etc.

Autism is (currently) categorized in the DSM-IV under Axis I as a Pervasive

Developmental Disorder. And although it is relatively rare, occasionally some

individuals with either autism or schizophrenia have become violent. Here is a

link to an article about violence and autism:

http://www.salon.com/2009/03/26/bauer_autism/. Warning: it is a heart-breaking

read.

My own personal theory is that a severe narcissistic injury + delusional

thinking/a break with reality is what was behind the mass shootings at the movie

theater in Aurora, Colorado not too long ago. Today I speculated with

co-workers that the shooter at the elementary school probably had narcissistic

pd or another Cluster B pd + a break with reality. The break with reality is

what propels the individual to actually carry out their fantasy of revenge.

They begin to feel entitled to make their revenge fantasy a reality. As

and pointed out, the break with reality can be due to an

illness like schizophrenia, or the transient paranoia and delusional thinking of

borderline pd, or some psychoactive drug. Or probably other things, like a

brain tumor. But what fuels the violence is rage.

Truly its a tragedy when mentally ill people have access to weapons, and get to

the point where they are primed and ready to turn their fantasy of the perfect

revenge into gut-wrenching tragedy for innocent bystanders and their families.

-Annie

> >

> > > **

> > >

> > >

> > > My un-psyche-educated opinion.

> > >

> > > Autism - not a chance, most autistic people on every spectrum of autism

are

> > > far too withdrawn and not violent as a group (at least not on this level)

> > >

> > > PD (personality disorder) - wow, can run the gamut from borderline to

> > > narcissistic to psychopathic. all are capable of extreme behavior.

> > >

> > > This - this goes into another place. probably PD, probably psychotic but

> > > NOT

> > > autistic.

> > >

> > > Best

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of CmeBfree

> > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 9:03 PM

> > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > Subject: CT shootings

> > >

> > >

> > > I need a question answered. A news anchor mentioned that at least two

> > > sources had mentioned that the shooter in today's tragedy, had a

> > > " personality disorder " but then said that it was Autism. I didn't think

> > > that

> > > Autism fell into the spectrum of personality disorders. Could someone

> > > please

> > > address this? Annie, I know you have a considerable understanding of

> > > diagnosises. I am confused.

> > >

> > > C

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I would have thought the killer was the no good child of a bpd child. The break

in reality caused by drugs...

Sent from my iPad

> Thank you. I knew I wasn't ompletely out of left field. I think perhaps the

reporter mis-spoke and was not as well informed as most of us on this site.

>

>

> >

> > > **

> > >

> > >

> > > My un-psyche-educated opinion.

> > >

> > > Autism - not a chance, most autistic people on every spectrum of autism

are

> > > far too withdrawn and not violent as a group (at least not on this level)

> > >

> > > PD (personality disorder) - wow, can run the gamut from borderline to

> > > narcissistic to psychopathic. all are capable of extreme behavior.

> > >

> > > This - this goes into another place. probably PD, probably psychotic but

> > > NOT

> > > autistic.

> > >

> > > Best

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of CmeBfree

> > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 9:03 PM

> > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > Subject: CT shootings

> > >

> > >

> > > I need a question answered. A news anchor mentioned that at least two

> > > sources had mentioned that the shooter in today's tragedy, had a

> > > " personality disorder " but then said that it was Autism. I didn't think

> > > that

> > > Autism fell into the spectrum of personality disorders. Could someone

> > > please

> > > address this? Annie, I know you have a considerable understanding of

> > > diagnosises. I am confused.

> > >

> > > C

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

We don't know enough about the family to say; I kind of hope that more info

comes out. One thing that struck me about the description of the shooter's

mother is that she was a kindergarten teacher who was also a gun collector

(she was killed with her own guns), which strikes me as kind of a strange

combination. And she wasn't currently teaching at Sandy Hook when her son

attacked, as I understand it; she had left that work a few years past to

" care for her son " or some such. She had a very generous alimony settlement

from the shooter's father so she didn't need to work.

I found it horribly significant that what the shooter did was take one

thing that was precious to his mom (her guns), use them to kill her, and

then, not satisfied with that, used those objects to kill the other thing

most precious to her -- the kids she taught, although not the actual kids

she taught, but those in the same age group she used to teach. The whole

thing reeks of a terrible mother-son dynamic but it so difficult to piece

these things together after the fact. No one will ever know what, if

anything, went on in that house, and why the shooter's rage spilled over

into the entire community who had nothing to do with whatever happened, or

didn't happen, to him.

But right now it looks like the shooter hated his mother so much that he

had to not only kill her, but to kill or despoil everything she loved as

well, including, eventually, himself. Was his hatred against his mother

justified in some way? (Not that anything justifies taking out that rage on

innocents). Or was he himself BPD, one of those types who always thinks

everything bad is everyone else's fault and he was justified in taking

extravagant revenge for all the slights the world had visited on him in

twenty years, when really nothing bad had happened to him?

I've thought for some time that the reason most diagnosed BPDs are female

is that male BPDs might go like the shooter did -- the combination of

unstable oversized emotions plus poor impulse control plus a supercharge

from the energy that testosterone delivers, plus social conditioning that

makes violence an acceptable way for males to express themselves....it

seems to fit frighteningly well.

I would like to see more of a research push toward examining BPD-like

symptoms in men -- it could prove very important, and maybe eventually lead

to diagnosis and treatment methods that could help prevent this kind of

thing. I wonder if anyone is working on that?

-- Jen H.

> **

>

>

> I would have thought the killer was the no good child of a bpd child. The

> break in reality caused by drugs...

>

> Sent from my iPad

>

>

>

>

> > Thank you. I knew I wasn't ompletely out of left field. I think perhaps

> the reporter mis-spoke and was not as well informed as most of us on this

> site.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > > **

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > My un-psyche-educated opinion.

> > > >

> > > > Autism - not a chance, most autistic people on every spectrum of

> autism are

> > > > far too withdrawn and not violent as a group (at least not on this

> level)

> > > >

> > > > PD (personality disorder) - wow, can run the gamut from borderline to

> > > > narcissistic to psychopathic. all are capable of extreme behavior.

> > > >

> > > > This - this goes into another place. probably PD, probably psychotic

> but

> > > > NOT

> > > > autistic.

> > > >

> > > > Best

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of CmeBfree

> > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 9:03 PM

> > > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > > Subject: CT shootings

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I need a question answered. A news anchor mentioned that at least two

> > > > sources had mentioned that the shooter in today's tragedy, had a

> > > > " personality disorder " but then said that it was Autism. I didn't

> think

> > > > that

> > > > Autism fell into the spectrum of personality disorders. Could someone

> > > > please

> > > > address this? Annie, I know you have a considerable understanding of

> > > > diagnosises. I am confused.

> > > >

> > > > C

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Randi Kreger, author of " The Essential Family Guide to bpd " and owner of this

Yahoo! Group, wrote an article about that topic at " Psychology Today " online:

" Borderline Personality Disorder in Men Overlooked, Misdiagnosed "

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201104/borderline-per\

sonality-disorder-in-men-overlooked-misdiagnosed

In the comments section, I offered my own personal speculation:

" Based on this excerpt from your article:

" One study found that when 52 professionals from a mental health agency in

California assessed patient vignettes, they were unable to accurately diagnose

the presence of BPD in males--even though the symptoms were identical to those

in vignettes of females. "

It could be equally valid to speculate that its Antisocial Personality Disorder

that is overlooked and misdiagnosed in female patients!

I'm leaning toward a theory I read about, that borderline pd could actually be

the female phenotypic expression of psychopathy (or, of antisocial pd) and the

different " labels " given to males and females evidencing virtually the same

group of traits and behaviors is due mainly to gender bias. A recent study

makes this theory seem pretty plausible to me:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22452756

-Annie

> > > >

> > > > > **

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > My un-psyche-educated opinion.

> > > > >

> > > > > Autism - not a chance, most autistic people on every spectrum of

> > autism are

> > > > > far too withdrawn and not violent as a group (at least not on this

> > level)

> > > > >

> > > > > PD (personality disorder) - wow, can run the gamut from borderline to

> > > > > narcissistic to psychopathic. all are capable of extreme behavior.

> > > > >

> > > > > This - this goes into another place. probably PD, probably psychotic

> > but

> > > > > NOT

> > > > > autistic.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > > > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of CmeBfree

> > > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 9:03 PM

> > > > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > > > Subject: CT shootings

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I need a question answered. A news anchor mentioned that at least two

> > > > > sources had mentioned that the shooter in today's tragedy, had a

> > > > > " personality disorder " but then said that it was Autism. I didn't

> > think

> > > > > that

> > > > > Autism fell into the spectrum of personality disorders. Could someone

> > > > > please

> > > > > address this? Annie, I know you have a considerable understanding of

> > > > > diagnosises. I am confused.

> > > > >

> > > > > C

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Autism and Personality Disorders are both pervasive conditions and are listed on

Axis II of the DSM hence the confusion both by the media and the general public.

Added to that mental illness and disorders are only discussed in the public

arena when an event is so incomprehensible they are looking for an explanation.

Sadly, he seems to be someone who needed help for a very long time and didn't

receive adequate interventions, combined with the access and availability of

guns we now have this tragedy.

I pray that each of the people at the school yesterday are given mental care and

health services. Traumatic experiences are a risk factor for triggering or a

child developing a personality disorder.

Hopefully, some good will come out of this if it encourages people to become

educated on personality disorders so they can get the help they need, or their

family members need. I recall after Kennedy died people began discussing

BPD and I am sure recognizing the traits in their families.

> > >

> > > > **

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > My un-psyche-educated opinion.

> > > >

> > > > Autism - not a chance, most autistic people on every spectrum of autism

are

> > > > far too withdrawn and not violent as a group (at least not on this

level)

> > > >

> > > > PD (personality disorder) - wow, can run the gamut from borderline to

> > > > narcissistic to psychopathic. all are capable of extreme behavior.

> > > >

> > > > This - this goes into another place. probably PD, probably psychotic but

> > > > NOT

> > > > autistic.

> > > >

> > > > Best

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of CmeBfree

> > > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 9:03 PM

> > > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > > Subject: CT shootings

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I need a question answered. A news anchor mentioned that at least two

> > > > sources had mentioned that the shooter in today's tragedy, had a

> > > > " personality disorder " but then said that it was Autism. I didn't think

> > > > that

> > > > Autism fell into the spectrum of personality disorders. Could someone

> > > > please

> > > > address this? Annie, I know you have a considerable understanding of

> > > > diagnosises. I am confused.

> > > >

> > > > C

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

You are right; I mistyped. Autism, autistic spectrum disorders and other

pervasive developmental disorders like mental retardation are in Axis II along

with the personality disorders, not in Axis I.

-Annie

>

> Autism and Personality Disorders are both pervasive conditions and are listed

on Axis II of the DSM hence the confusion both by the media and the general

public. Added to that mental illness and disorders are only discussed in the

public arena when an event is so incomprehensible they are looking for an

explanation. Sadly, he seems to be someone who needed help for a very long time

and didn't receive adequate interventions, combined with the access and

availability of guns we now have this tragedy.

>

> I pray that each of the people at the school yesterday are given mental care

and health services. Traumatic experiences are a risk factor for triggering or

a child developing a personality disorder.

>

> Hopefully, some good will come out of this if it encourages people to become

educated on personality disorders so they can get the help they need, or their

family members need. I recall after Kennedy died people began discussing

BPD and I am sure recognizing the traits in their families.