Borderline or Anti-Social Personality Disorder?

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,

I was reading about PDs and it struck me that my Nada seemed to fit so many

of the criteria for Borderline, Anti-Social , and Narcissistic PDs. It was

frightening. Now I am confused and honestly don't know what I am dealing

with. She met all the criteria for Anti-Social Personality Disorder

otherwise known as a Sociopath. So much so that is was frightening to me

because it said that there is no hope of them ever changing their behaviors

in fact much less hope than in a borderline. Not that I was thinking she

would change at 67 years old but it said that with ASPD the only way to deal

with them is to RUN away because it will NEVER change. They are extremely

damaging people to everyone around them. It made me feel so depressed. I

am NC with Nada now but after reading this stuff I feel like I am probably

always going to have to be for my own sanity. There really is very little

you can do to deal with someone with ASPD except give them their way or get

away. There is no boundary setting because they could care less about

rules so it would never work. Reading from Dr. Hare's website on ASPD was

eye opening.

Anyway, I was wondering if others on the board have these same thoughts and

if their mothers meet the criteria for other PDs.

My nada was never officially diagnosed but back in the 70s she was in a

mental hospital for a short time and diagnosed then with a Character

Disorder and substance abuse problems. I think Character Disorder is the

same as a PD but it sounds so vague. Again it was the 70s so I don't know

how much was known back then about PDs.

[Guest guest]

It's common for them to fit criteria for all of that. Running would be

advised.

> **

>

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I was reading about PDs and it struck me that my Nada seemed to fit so many

> of the criteria for Borderline, Anti-Social , and Narcissistic PDs. It was

> frightening. Now I am confused and honestly don't know what I am dealing

> with. She met all the criteria for Anti-Social Personality Disorder

> otherwise known as a Sociopath. So much so that is was frightening to me

> because it said that there is no hope of them ever changing their behaviors

> in fact much less hope than in a borderline. Not that I was thinking she

> would change at 67 years old but it said that with ASPD the only way to

> deal

> with them is to RUN away because it will NEVER change. They are extremely

> damaging people to everyone around them. It made me feel so depressed. I

> am NC with Nada now but after reading this stuff I feel like I am probably

> always going to have to be for my own sanity. There really is very little

> you can do to deal with someone with ASPD except give them their way or get

> away. There is no boundary setting because they could care less about

> rules so it would never work. Reading from Dr. Hare's website on ASPD was

> eye opening.

>

> Anyway, I was wondering if others on the board have these same thoughts and

> if their mothers meet the criteria for other PDs.

>

> My nada was never officially diagnosed but back in the 70s she was in a

> mental hospital for a short time and diagnosed then with a Character

> Disorder and substance abuse problems. I think Character Disorder is the

> same as a PD but it sounds so vague. Again it was the 70s so I don't know

> how much was known back then about PDs.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sounds just like my mother...

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry you have a mother with ASPD. That must have felt terrifying for you at

times. I have met a few sociopaths and they always just give me chills.

It is not very uncommon for someone to have more than one disorder. Your mother

could very well have all 3 that you mentioned. It doesn't have to be one or the

other. Some people feel the cluster b disorders are on a bit of a spectrum.

I am glad you have done what is necessary to protect yourself in terms of NC

with your mother. I know it is sad to realize there is virtually no hope things

could be different. You have to survive and keep yourself safe.

Sveta

>

> Hi everyone,

>

>

>

> I was reading about PDs and it struck me that my Nada seemed to fit so many

> of the criteria for Borderline, Anti-Social , and Narcissistic PDs. It was

> frightening. Now I am confused and honestly don't know what I am dealing

> with. She met all the criteria for Anti-Social Personality Disorder

> otherwise known as a Sociopath. So much so that is was frightening to me

> because it said that there is no hope of them ever changing their behaviors

> in fact much less hope than in a borderline. Not that I was thinking she

> would change at 67 years old but it said that with ASPD the only way to deal

> with them is to RUN away because it will NEVER change. They are extremely

> damaging people to everyone around them. It made me feel so depressed. I

> am NC with Nada now but after reading this stuff I feel like I am probably

> always going to have to be for my own sanity. There really is very little

> you can do to deal with someone with ASPD except give them their way or get

> away. There is no boundary setting because they could care less about

> rules so it would never work. Reading from Dr. Hare's website on ASPD was

> eye opening.

>

>

>

> Anyway, I was wondering if others on the board have these same thoughts and

> if their mothers meet the criteria for other PDs.

>

>

>

> My nada was never officially diagnosed but back in the 70s she was in a

> mental hospital for a short time and diagnosed then with a Character

> Disorder and substance abuse problems. I think Character Disorder is the

> same as a PD but it sounds so vague. Again it was the 70s so I don't know

> how much was known back then about PDs.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My mother is deceased now, but I believe that although she was formally

diagnosed only with borderline pd, she also showed many traits of narcissistic

pd and a few traits of antisocial pd as well. And obsessive-compulsive

personality disorder (which, confusingly, is not the same thing as obsessive

compulsive disorder.)

Having more than one disorder at the same time is called a " co-morbidity. "

The book " Understanding The Borderline Mother " breaks down bpd into four

sub-types based on co-morbidity:

The " Hermit " is borderline pd + avoidant pd

The " Waif " is borderline pd + dependent pd

The " Queen " is borderline pd + narcissistic pd, and

The " Witch " is borderline pd + antisocial pd (aka sociopathy, aka psychopathy)

So according to that book, my mother was a " Queen/Witch " bpd. With some

obsessive-compulsive pd traits thrown in there too (rigidity of thinking,

obsessively hyper-controlling about cleanliness and order, perfectionism, etc.)

Me personally, I tend to lean toward the not-quite-mainstream theory that all

the Cluster B disorders could be a range of severity of psychopathy. Here's a

link to the abstract of a study about that:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22452756

-Annie

>

> Hi everyone,

>

>

>

> I was reading about PDs and it struck me that my Nada seemed to fit so many

> of the criteria for Borderline, Anti-Social , and Narcissistic PDs. It was

> frightening. Now I am confused and honestly don't know what I am dealing

> with. She met all the criteria for Anti-Social Personality Disorder

> otherwise known as a Sociopath. So much so that is was frightening to me

> because it said that there is no hope of them ever changing their behaviors

> in fact much less hope than in a borderline. Not that I was thinking she

> would change at 67 years old but it said that with ASPD the only way to deal

> with them is to RUN away because it will NEVER change. They are extremely

> damaging people to everyone around them. It made me feel so depressed. I

> am NC with Nada now but after reading this stuff I feel like I am probably

> always going to have to be for my own sanity. There really is very little

> you can do to deal with someone with ASPD except give them their way or get

> away. There is no boundary setting because they could care less about

> rules so it would never work. Reading from Dr. Hare's website on ASPD was

> eye opening.

>

>

>

> Anyway, I was wondering if others on the board have these same thoughts and

> if their mothers meet the criteria for other PDs.

>

>

>

> My nada was never officially diagnosed but back in the 70s she was in a

> mental hospital for a short time and diagnosed then with a Character

> Disorder and substance abuse problems. I think Character Disorder is the

> same as a PD but it sounds so vague. Again it was the 70s so I don't know

> how much was known back then about PDs.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you all for the comments. Very much appreciate the support.

ASPD very much fits my mother even more than the others. Borderlines seem

to at least have feelings even thought they are intense and not regulated.

My mother has very superficial displays of feeling. Never seemed like there

was much depth there. She could use and discard people and things without

much thought. She also never had respect for authority of any kind and a

total absence of fear or consequences. She has shoplifted her whole life

and claims that the stores don't miss it and they charge too much anyway.

She can justify anything that she does. The thing is she never gets caught

either. She has this criminal mind and knows how to get over and enjoys

doing it.

Her thinking is just so off it is scary. She has only gotten worse with age

not better. I mean she honestly believes there is nothing wrong with her.

Despite all the damage she has done and that no one wants to be around

her...her entire family disowned her, she has been evicted numerous times

for behavior not money and had restraining orders against her and yet still

she blames everyone else. It is just so unfathomable to me. She can go

into a court room and play a role and get out of things. Once I took her to

a rehab and she had the intake therapist convinced that she was fine and

that I was a no good daughter trying to commit her mother and get rid of

her. She was well dressed, jewelry on and playing the act...the therapist

believed her and they would not admit her. I looked like the nut job. It

was crazy.

She screams at me that I don't stand by her..i.e. condone her crazy

behavior. But what sane person could. The scary thing about ASPD is that

there is no treatment for them that works. No meds no nothing. The

character traits are so ingrained and they believe they are right, they see

nothing wrong with themselves. There is no need for therapy and in fact

they hate therapy because it makes them feel in a one down position which

they detest. My mother always says therapists are a bunch of quacks with

their own problems.

I guess I was reading all this stuff and just feeling hopeless. Thanks

again for all your comments and support.

Tracey

[Guest guest]

We're here for you. I also believe my mother is a sociopath so I have the

problem that the first person I bonded with was a sociopath. It's a

terrible problem! Sounds like you have a decent handle on her though.

> **

>

>

> Thank you all for the comments. Very much appreciate the support.

>

> ASPD very much fits my mother even more than the others. Borderlines seem

> to at least have feelings even thought they are intense and not regulated.

> My mother has very superficial displays of feeling. Never seemed like there

> was much depth there. She could use and discard people and things without

> much thought. She also never had respect for authority of any kind and a

> total absence of fear or consequences. She has shoplifted her whole life

> and claims that the stores don't miss it and they charge too much anyway.

> She can justify anything that she does. The thing is she never gets caught

> either. She has this criminal mind and knows how to get over and enjoys

> doing it.

>

> Her thinking is just so off it is scary. She has only gotten worse with age

> not better. I mean she honestly believes there is nothing wrong with her.

> Despite all the damage she has done and that no one wants to be around

> her...her entire family disowned her, she has been evicted numerous times

> for behavior not money and had restraining orders against her and yet still

> she blames everyone else. It is just so unfathomable to me. She can go

> into a court room and play a role and get out of things. Once I took her to

> a rehab and she had the intake therapist convinced that she was fine and

> that I was a no good daughter trying to commit her mother and get rid of

> her. She was well dressed, jewelry on and playing the act...the therapist

> believed her and they would not admit her. I looked like the nut job. It

> was crazy.

>

> She screams at me that I don't stand by her..i.e. condone her crazy

> behavior. But what sane person could. The scary thing about ASPD is that

> there is no treatment for them that works. No meds no nothing. The

> character traits are so ingrained and they believe they are right, they see

> nothing wrong with themselves. There is no need for therapy and in fact

> they hate therapy because it makes them feel in a one down position which

> they detest. My mother always says therapists are a bunch of quacks with

> their own problems.

>

> I guess I was reading all this stuff and just feeling hopeless. Thanks

> again for all your comments and support.

>

> Tracey

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I have been following your posts and, as you know, have commented on the

similarities between your mother and mine. It really is uncanny. You have

described my mother, spot on.

The evictions, the shoplifting, the " fooling " the therapists, etc.

It's a struggle to turn my back on my mother. Nobody who knows my stories

can understand the struggle, including me. That said, the more I learn the

less of a struggle it is. The more I learn, the more I realize that there

is absolutely nothing I can do for her. Anything I do for her is really

for myself...some semblance of doing something of the right thing, in my

own eyes. Not hers.

Please keep us informed of any new information you gather. Your insights

are invaluable.

Janice

[Guest guest]

Thanks Janice and Millicent. I appreciate the support. I appreciate

everyone on this forum and am grateful there is a place to come and post and

share.

I just ordered a few books on Amazon about Sociopaths and also Character

disorders. I will keep you posted if they are any good!

Tracey

[Guest guest]

Thanks, !

Janice

[Guest guest]

One book I highly recommend to understand and deal with personality

disordered is " Character Disturbance: the Phenomena of our age " . I am

learning a tremendous amount about how the character disturbed thinks and

how to deal with them most effectively. It goes into great detail about

the differences between the neurotic and the character disordered and why

the main treatments as in psychotherapy don't work for the character

disturbed because they lack guilt and conscious. They know exactly what

they are doing but they just don't feel bad about it. Unlike the neurotic

who has an overabundance of guilt and shame.

If you are dealing with any sort of sociopath/anti-social or narcissistic

personality disordered person you need to get this book. A great read so

far!

Tracey

[Guest guest]

Thank you!

Janice

[Guest guest]

Your welcome Janice.

I know you and I have similar type of mothers and I think you will definatley

get a lot out of reading this book. I have read a slew of self help books and a

lot on BPD but this author who i think is also a psychiatrist has it down on how

to deal with them and explains exactly how they are thinking and why we can't

deal with them the way we deal with others because they just manipulate if you

show feelings. THis book is fantastic and I am learning so much.

I am about 1/4 thru the book but I couldn't put it down last night so I will

probally be finishing it this week!

Tracey

>

> Thank you!

>

> Janice

>

>

>