Guest guest Posted December 18, 2012 Report Share Posted December 18, 2012 I'm new to this group, but I thought I'd write since I don't have anyone whom I can talk to about this or who can understand or relate. I'm 35 years old and have always had a rocky relationship with my mom. As I've gotten older I have realized that she's sick and has BPD. Lately it's just been bad. I just don't know how to communicate with her effectively so I've chosen to distance myself, however she and my dad live about 3 blocks away. I love my dad and wish I could visit more, but it's unbearable to be in the same room with her at times. But I miss my dad. Unfortunately, he reinforces her behaviors. He will never understand. Can't talk to my brother about it, he does not understand either. Don't want to tell my boyfriend about it because it's a new relationship (and my parents plan to move abroad--hopefully soon.) The problem is that when I do talk to her I get a guilt trip. I hang up the phone and feel like the worst daughter in the world. All I hear is why don't you come over, you never stop by. However, when I do stop by, she clings to me, cries, pets my head and just makes me feel so uncomfortable because she's so needy. She called today and it was just a cold conversation. I don't feel like I have anything to say to her. I have no desire to share my personal life with her. By the end of the conversation she sounded like she was starting to tear up. I'll probably get a call in the morning from my dad telling me how much my mom was hurt by conversation. Last time this happened I just cried the whole way to work. Now I don't even want to answer my dad's calls. The truth is that I really miss seeing him. And as much as I truly love my mother, her BPD had gotten worse and worse and I just don't know what to do. I just want to disappear because I just can't seem to find a way. I've read many books, spoken to my psychologist but still I feel at a loss. Tired of feeling guilty and wondering if I will regret any of my distance one day when she's gone. Feeling overwhelmed, and exhausted from trying. Some days I just want to move as far as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2012 Report Share Posted December 19, 2012 This sounds awful. I can really see your pain. It's not your job to make her feel better! On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 9:22 PM, little_bee_1 littlebee1_inbox@...>wrote: > ** > > > I'm new to this group, but I thought I'd write since I don't have anyone > whom I can talk to about this or who can understand or relate. > I'm 35 years old and have always had a rocky relationship with my mom. As > I've gotten older I have realized that she's sick and has BPD. > Lately it's just been bad. I just don't know how to communicate with her > effectively so I've chosen to distance myself, however she and my dad live > about 3 blocks away. I love my dad and wish I could visit more, but it's > unbearable to be in the same room with her at times. But I miss my dad. > Unfortunately, he reinforces her behaviors. He will never understand. > Can't talk to my brother about it, he does not understand either. Don't > want to tell my boyfriend about it because it's a new relationship (and my > parents plan to move abroad--hopefully soon.) > The problem is that when I do talk to her I get a guilt trip. I hang up > the phone and feel like the worst daughter in the world. All I hear is why > don't you come over, you never stop by. > However, when I do stop by, she clings to me, cries, pets my head and just > makes me feel so uncomfortable because she's so needy. > She called today and it was just a cold conversation. I don't feel like I > have anything to say to her. I have no desire to share my personal life > with her. By the end of the conversation she sounded like she was starting > to tear up. > I'll probably get a call in the morning from my dad telling me how much my > mom was hurt by conversation. Last time this happened I just cried the > whole way to work. Now I don't even want to answer my dad's calls. The > truth is that I really miss seeing him. And as much as I truly love my > mother, her BPD had gotten worse and worse and I just don't know what to do. > I just want to disappear because I just can't seem to find a way. > I've read many books, spoken to my psychologist but still I feel at a > loss. > Tired of feeling guilty and wondering if I will regret any of my distance > one day when she's gone. Feeling overwhelmed, and exhausted from trying. > Some days I just want to move as far as possible. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2012 Report Share Posted December 19, 2012 Welcome to the Group. You've found a bunch of other people who understand the issues you are facing RE having a mother with borderline pd and an enmeshed, codependent, enabling father. As my borderline pd/narcissistic pd mother aged, she added " Waify " behaviors (emotionally clingy, needy, fearful, child-like behaviors) toward my younger Sister, who was acting as our mother's part-time care-giver. For most of our lives, my Sister and I experienced more Queen-like and Witch-like behaviors from our bpd mother, but I personally found the Waif behaviors more difficult to handle due to the massive application of inappropriate and misplaced guilt. But the bottom line is that abusing one's child is just wrong, whatever form the abuse takes: physical, emotional, sexual, or negligence. Even if its difficult for you to accept this in the core of your being, the truth is that you are NOT responsible for the way your mother or father feels about anything. They are responsible for their own happiness or lack of it. The guilt you are feeling is misplaced and inappropriate. Your parents have exploited you, by expecting YOU to " make them happy. " That is abusive. Part of you realizes that you have been subjected to emotional abuse, and that contact with them will only mean more of the same. The biggest challenge to us adult children of mentally ill parents is to really understand and accept that the way our mentally ill parents feel about things in general and about us in particular *is not our fault.* We did not cause our parents to be mentally ill, and there is nothing we can do to change them or cure them. All we have the power to control our own self. We have the power and the right to create healthy personal boundaries or " protective fences " for ourselves, and we have the power and the right to enforce our boundaries. My own personal opinion (which is not a " universal truth " , just MY opinion) is that those of us with bpd parents have been traumatized, and hope for us to gain a measure of peace and healing is more likely via the route of seeking trauma recovery through therapy. My own Sister gained a great deal of relief by finding a therapist who had himself had a borderline pd mother, so he was very understanding about the types of abuse my Sister was enduring and the kind of damage it did to her. He was able to help my Sister absolve herself from the misplaced and inappropriate guilt she was feeling, and help Sister achieve a more healthy level of emotional detachment from our mother. I wasn't able to achieve a significant level of emotional detachment from our mother, so my solution was to go No Contact. No Contact can be temporary (like a " time out " from family of origin dysfunctional dynamics) or permanent, its an individual choice based on individual needs. I see nothing wrong with saying something like " Just so you know, mom and dad, I need to take a " time out " for a while, so I can work on some issues I'm having, on my own. I'll let you know when I'm ready to resume contact with you. Thanks for understanding. " and then take that time out from the drama and the guilt. It doesn't make you a bad human being or a bad daughter to withdraw from being abused, even if the abuse is coming from your own parent(s). There is nothing immoral or unethical about withdrawing your hand from a hot stove to keep it from burning you. After some healing time away from your parents, gaining a different perspective on them and on your relationship dynamic, after achieving a " paradigm shift " (its no longer a parent/child relationship, its now an adult-to-adult relationship) when you feel stronger, less vulnerable, and have been able to accept and internalize that you are NOT guilty of any harm toward your parents... after you can truly accept that its NOT your job to be your mother's " mommy " , then there is a greater chance that you can renew contact with them without sustaining further emotional injury. You'll be able to pity them from a safe emotional distance without feeling responsible for relieving their unhappiness, which is impossible for anyone to relieve *for* them. You can't save either of them from their own self. I hope that helps. -Annie > > I'm new to this group, but I thought I'd write since I don't have anyone whom I can talk to about this or who can understand or relate. > I'm 35 years old and have always had a rocky relationship with my mom. As I've gotten older I have realized that she's sick and has BPD. > Lately it's just been bad. I just don't know how to communicate with her effectively so I've chosen to distance myself, however she and my dad live about 3 blocks away. I love my dad and wish I could visit more, but it's unbearable to be in the same room with her at times. But I miss my dad. Unfortunately, he reinforces her behaviors. He will never understand. > Can't talk to my brother about it, he does not understand either. Don't want to tell my boyfriend about it because it's a new relationship (and my parents plan to move abroad--hopefully soon.) > The problem is that when I do talk to her I get a guilt trip. I hang up the phone and feel like the worst daughter in the world. All I hear is why don't you come over, you never stop by. > However, when I do stop by, she clings to me, cries, pets my head and just makes me feel so uncomfortable because she's so needy. > She called today and it was just a cold conversation. I don't feel like I have anything to say to her. I have no desire to share my personal life with her. By the end of the conversation she sounded like she was starting to tear up. > I'll probably get a call in the morning from my dad telling me how much my mom was hurt by conversation. Last time this happened I just cried the whole way to work. Now I don't even want to answer my dad's calls. The truth is that I really miss seeing him. And as much as I truly love my mother, her BPD had gotten worse and worse and I just don't know what to do. > I just want to disappear because I just can't seem to find a way. > I've read many books, spoken to my psychologist but still I feel at a loss. > Tired of feeling guilty and wondering if I will regret any of my distance one day when she's gone. Feeling overwhelmed, and exhausted from trying. Some days I just want to move as far as possible. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2012 Report Share Posted December 19, 2012 Welcome to the group. It sounds like your mother has placed an incredible burden on your shoulders. She is unhappy and is blaming you for her unhappiness. She is like a bottomless pit, and she is expecting you to provide her with all the warm fuzzies she needs to feel real. That isn't fair, because it isn't something you can do even if you wanted to. You are not responsible for how your mother feels. It is jot your job to make other people happy or keep them from feeling sad. That is their job. When your mother cries, it is not your fault. She was hurt long before you existed and is blaming you for pain you didn't cause because she is afraid to look inside herself. When she tells you how mean you are, you can hand the responsibility back to her. " It must feel awful to think your daughter is mean. Maybe it would be a good idea to get some advice from a therapist ahout ways to cope with me. " When your father calls to guilt trip you, you can say, " I don't like it that mom is sad. But it is not my fault, and I can't fix it. Maybe you can encourage her to talk with a professional. " There is a saying about alcoholism that helps me when I apply it to my mother's BPD: I didn't cause it, I don't control it, and I can't cure it. Have you ever done this exercise? Get a box that represents someone else's emotional baggage. Have someone hand it to you and ask you to hold it. Practice giving it back to them and saying no, or even refuse to touch it altogether. It is not your job to bear the burden of someone else's baggage. When your mother tries to hand you her box, making you hold onto feelings of inadequacy and shame, say no by refusing to feel responsible. There are people who are trained to help her unload her box, but you're not one of them. She can get help from them. What kind of advice does your therapist give you? How long hage you been seeking help for yourself? Sveta > > I'm new to this group, but I thought I'd write since I don't have anyone whom I can talk to about this or who can understand or relate. > I'm 35 years old and have always had a rocky relationship with my mom. As I've gotten older I have realized that she's sick and has BPD. > Lately it's just been bad. I just don't know how to communicate with her effectively so I've chosen to distance myself, however she and my dad live about 3 blocks away. I love my dad and wish I could visit more, but it's unbearable to be in the same room with her at times. But I miss my dad. Unfortunately, he reinforces her behaviors. He will never understand. > Can't talk to my brother about it, he does not understand either. Don't want to tell my boyfriend about it because it's a new relationship (and my parents plan to move abroad--hopefully soon.) > The problem is that when I do talk to her I get a guilt trip. I hang up the phone and feel like the worst daughter in the world. All I hear is why don't you come over, you never stop by. > However, when I do stop by, she clings to me, cries, pets my head and just makes me feel so uncomfortable because she's so needy. > She called today and it was just a cold conversation. I don't feel like I have anything to say to her. I have no desire to share my personal life with her. By the end of the conversation she sounded like she was starting to tear up. > I'll probably get a call in the morning from my dad telling me how much my mom was hurt by conversation. Last time this happened I just cried the whole way to work. Now I don't even want to answer my dad's calls. The truth is that I really miss seeing him. And as much as I truly love my mother, her BPD had gotten worse and worse and I just don't know what to do. > I just want to disappear because I just can't seem to find a way. > I've read many books, spoken to my psychologist but still I feel at a loss. > Tired of feeling guilty and wondering if I will regret any of my distance one day when she's gone. Feeling overwhelmed, and exhausted from trying. Some days I just want to move as far as possible. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2012 Report Share Posted December 19, 2012 Just an update...I turned my phone on silent when I woke up...didn't want to feel the guilt of not wanting to answer the phone for my dad. He did call but left no message. Still the guilt was there. I stop by the house for about a half hour however I did not want to stop by if my dad or my mom had asked me because I did not want to reinforce that behavior. She was a little better with conversation, except for when I said I had to go. She then went into " I'm so glad you stopped by. You have abandoned us " She hugged me and would not let go. I found myself pushing her away. It just feels so uncomfortable. I went almost out of obligation... my obligation as a daughter, but I left there feeling glad it was over. Ugh... disgusted with myself. I appreciate your comments. It's good to know that others can relate. Thanks a million Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2012 Report Share Posted December 19, 2012 I have been seeing my therapist for about 3 years. She recommended a book " Understanding the Borderline Mother. " It was a very helpful book. I must have highlighted half the book. It helped me understand the why's and also the various types of BPD mothers. (My mom is Waif/Hermit). What I really need is coping skills. One thing she told me to try was to assign my mom with a regular call time, so that she knows when to expect a call. For example every Thurs @ 10am. (My mom always complains that I don't call her, and therefore I don't care about her.) I dread calling her, even to schedule a time! I have not done it yet... I think i'm feeling a bit fearful of her reaction. I know it's not my fault, and at times I wish I knew about my mom's past... but that would not change a thing. I appreciate your advice and the quote. I will have to try the box idea. Never thought of that, although I have gotten better at standing up for myself when it comes to my mom and dad....something I never did growing up. Again, thanks for the feedback... it's much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2012 Report Share Posted December 20, 2012 Welcome, Little Bee, I understand your revulsion to your mother right now. It is SO hard to bear the burden of her guilt and grabbing on to you when you just want to let go. I was just thinking the other day that they are like spiders catching us in their web of obligation and guilt and then desiring to suck the life right out of us. It seems that for my nada (what we call un-motherly BPD mothers) as she sinks further and further into her " pit " of emotions she is only relieved when I feel those emotions too. So, she would pick a field of battle that would bring me to anger, crying, shame, guilt so that she could SEE that I was as miserable as she was and then she would seem to get a great deal of relief that she wasn't alone. It was a VERY hard decision for me, but I did go no contact with her last October after only e-mailing her for several months. I'm only 35 minutes away but her constant nagging on when she could see me, when I would call her, telling me I didn't love her because I wasn't meeting her needs was just too much for me. I have 3 children so going no contact for Christmas is hard but I have to remember that it is just another day and that I am not obligated to her if she is going to suck the life out of me to meet her emptiness. I've always hated Christmas because of how miserable she made everyone trying to re-create some perfect Christmas she has bottled up in her own mind and when we couldn't make it as special we would pay with her anger/self-pity/spite. For me no contact came so that I could heal and find myself and my own ground to stand on because it always felt like she was pulling it out from under me. Since I have been no contact I have come to accept that her behaviors toward me as a child were in fact abusive (I'm 38 now) and that all the issues I have with relationships, self-confidence, not taking care of my own needs, depression etc. all stem from how she handled me as a child and continues to treat me as an adult. It is like she craves to see me fail so that she can be my shoulder to cry on. . . she wants me to be miserable with her so she isn't alone. What you decide to do and how much interaction you choose to have with your parents is only something you can decide, and the sense of obligation may be too much for you to go no contact. However, I had always felt it was impossible to disconnect from my parents because it was just not okay by societal standards. When I read the Understanding your Borderline Mother book and the posts on this group I was relieved to find out that it was not only okay but was the only way I could be happy. Many blessings to you this week. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2012 Report Share Posted December 20, 2012 You have such insight! I hear you. On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Renslow jwjrenslow@...>wrote: > ** > > > > > Welcome, Little Bee, I understand your revulsion to your mother right now. > It is SO hard to bear the burden of her guilt and grabbing on to you when > you just want to let go. I was just thinking the other day that they are > like spiders catching us in their web of obligation and guilt and then > desiring to suck the life right out of us. It seems that for my nada (what > we call un-motherly BPD mothers) as she sinks further and further into her > " pit " of emotions she is only relieved when I feel those emotions too. So, > she would pick a field of battle that would bring me to anger, crying, > shame, guilt so that she could SEE that I was as miserable as she was and > then she would seem to get a great deal of relief that she wasn't alone. > > It was a VERY hard decision for me, but I did go no contact with her last > October after only e-mailing her for several months. I'm only 35 minutes > away but her constant nagging on when she could see me, when I would call > her, telling me I didn't love her because I wasn't meeting her needs was > just too much for me. I have 3 children so going no contact for Christmas > is hard but I have to remember that it is just another day and that I am > not > obligated to her if she is going to suck the life out of me to meet her > emptiness. I've always hated Christmas because of how miserable she made > everyone trying to re-create some perfect Christmas she has bottled up in > her own mind and when we couldn't make it as special we would pay with her > anger/self-pity/spite. > > For me no contact came so that I could heal and find myself and my own > ground to stand on because it always felt like she was pulling it out from > under me. Since I have been no contact I have come to accept that her > behaviors toward me as a child were in fact abusive (I'm 38 now) and that > all the issues I have with relationships, self-confidence, not taking care > of my own needs, depression etc. all stem from how she handled me as a > child > and continues to treat me as an adult. It is like she craves to see me fail > so that she can be my shoulder to cry on. . . she wants me to be miserable > with her so she isn't alone. > > What you decide to do and how much interaction you choose to have with your > parents is only something you can decide, and the sense of obligation may > be > too much for you to go no contact. However, I had always felt it was > impossible to disconnect from my parents because it was just not okay by > societal standards. When I read the Understanding your Borderline Mother > book and the posts on this group I was relieved to find out that it was not > only okay but was the only way I could be happy. Many blessings to you > this week. . . > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2012 Report Share Posted December 20, 2012 Hi Little Bee, And welcome to my world! > >> The problem is that when I do talk to her I get a guilt trip. I hang up the phone and feel like the worst daughter in the world. All I hear is why don't you come over, you never stop by. Oh, yes, this is very common, and was sure a part of my experience with my mom. Nothing I did was enough. If I called to check in and see how she was doing, she made me feel bad for not calling more. If I took her to lunch to show her I care and am trying to have a relationship, next call she would say I just have a hard dtime believing you really love me. Say what, woman!?? Bottom line? It is not about us. It is about her. You cannot fill her endless black hole of neediness. Let me say that again. You CANNOT fill her endless neediness. That is not your fault. First, it is not your job to fulfill her. Second, no human being can do so. What can you do? You can accept what is healthy and reasonable for you. You can have no, or as little as you are comfortable with, of a relationship, and remind yourself you are doing your best with a very damaged woman. She is desperately afraid of losing her relationships, but yet sabatagues every one she has. It is part of her disorder. It is NOT your fault. You cannot change it, nor are you somehow morally obligated to let your life be consumed in her needs and sickness. She CAN choose to get help and get better. You do not have to give up your own sense of worth and self to fulfill her. Cause guess what? If you do, it still will never be enough. > However, when I do stop by, she clings to me, cries, pets my head and just makes me feel so uncomfortable because she's so needy. Oh my God yes. My Nada ( our short hand for our BP moms..Not a mother...nada) would cry at nothing, and always wanted to be hugged. But her hugs were not a normal physical expression of affection. When she hugged me, she took me prisoner. She would grab me around the throat, cling so hard and so long I felt trapped. Even when I said ok that s enough, she would just hold on and on. Finally I would have to pry her fingers and arms off me to get free. Of course that made me feel guilty, because I was not a good son, since I was not physically affectionate with my own mother. But I finally would not let her hug me. I told her why, which was part of living healthy with a BP in your life. Establish boundaries. If they wont respect your boundaries, there are consequences. > She called today and it was just a cold conversation. I don't feel like I have anything to say to her. I have no desire to share my personal life with her. By the end of the conversation she sounded like she was starting to tear up. > I'll probably get a call in the morning from my dad telling me how much my mom was hurt by conversation. Last time this happened I just cried the whole way to work. Now I don't even want to answer my dad's calls. The truth is that I really miss seeing him. And as much as I truly love my mother, her BPD had gotten worse and worse and I just don't know what to do. Your dad is a flying monkey, doing the will of the witch. You have to set bounaries with him as well. Those who chooose to get caught in her web and be an extension of her must be treated just as she is. > I just want to disappear because I just can't seem to find a way. > I've read many books, spoken to my psychologist but still I feel at a loss. > Tired of feeling guilty and wondering if I will regret any of my distance one day when she's gone. Feeling overwhelmed, and exhausted from trying. Some days I just want to move as far as possible. > > As far as books, If you have not done so I would start with Stop Walking on Eggshells. If you check out BPDCentral.com, there are a number of good resources. Will you regret your choices? Perhaps. We are so programmed by years of childhood with them into the FOG ( fear obligation guilt) with which they manipulate us, it is hard to get out of it. But as we heal and get healthy we can begin to find the difference between real guilt and manipulation. Bottom line: We must be responsible for our own emotional health. We must make the best decisions we can for us, for a BP will NEVER consider your needs, rights, or health as a human being. Do your best, and tell the guilt to to stand in the corner. Good luck Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2012 Report Share Posted December 20, 2012 I want to start by agreeing with everything that has been said, and then to chime in with my perspective on one other piece. You remarked that you would like to know about your mom's past, but that it would not change anything.  I would like to share my experience. Last spring, I asked my mom if she was an incest-survivor. (I asked in an e-mail, in which I also requested that get together in person so she could respond.  We made at a coffee shop, which she preferred to being in a private setting.)  I was spurred to ask this question by an academic article about daughters of incest-survivors who happened to have BPD traits. The article reported that it was very healing for daughters to learn about their mother's abuse, in order to understand that they were truly not to blame for their mother's abusive behaviors.  At this point, I decided that my own healing was too important for me to push aside this question about her history in any effort to respect my mom's privacy around the issue. The information I got was limited, but also had a big impact on me.  It has validated my intuitions and observations, in spite of her family's secrecy about their childhood abuse and denial about my mother's mental illness. It also allowed me to feel rage on my mother's behalf, if only momentarily, that she has not received more help for what happened to her. I feel angry at a society and a family that would hide my mother's abuse and deny her mental illness, allowing the consequences to fall on me and my brother. And, of course, I still feel angry at her for past and present offenses. It doesn't sound like this sort of conversation is possible with your mother, perhaps right now or perhaps ever.  I feel that I had a rare and brief window of time in which this conversation was possible with my own mother, who was emotionally abusive and today behaves better when I keep her at a distance. (Our current relationship is very limited and difficult, and I have no expectation that I can ever trust her or feel close to her.)  However, I want to validate that desire you have to know about her past, and to say that is does matter, and that everything that you feel is understandable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2012 Report Share Posted December 20, 2012 Do you think she told the truth? In the case of my nada, her stories have changed so much over the years and much of what she tells people now isn't even close to reality. She's complained for years that when her mom died, her sisters swooped in and took everything. She didn't even get one memento from her mom. Recently she's accused us of stealing things from her, one specific thing she claims we've taken was a pin that her mother owned. Says it was the only things she had from her mom and it meant so much to her. I've never seen it and it contradicts what she's said for years. As for incest, just this past year she's acknowledged her part in me being sexually abused by one of her boyfriends. She appeared to regret leaving me alone with him while she went shopping. OK, whatever, we can't go back and fix it. Then she told me a story: said her Dad molested her sisters. Then one day he came to her room and she kicked him across the room and he never bothered her again. She's the youngest child and I'm hesitant to believe she really was able to overpower a grown man. But two things: she gets to be a victim and she gets to be her own hero. Perfect for a BPD. So do I know if she lived in fear of being raped? I have no real clue. Is she BPD? That I do know. The cause? I'll never know. > > I want to start by agreeing with everything that has been said, and then to chime in with my perspective on one other piece. > > You remarked that you would like to know about your mom's past, but that it would not change anything.  I would like to share my experience. > > Last spring, I asked my mom if she was an incest-survivor. (I asked in an e-mail, in which I also requested that get together in person so she could respond.  We made at a coffee shop, which she preferred to being in a private setting.)  I was spurred to ask this question by an academic article about daughters of incest-survivors who happened to have BPD traits. The article reported that it was very healing for daughters to learn about their mother's abuse, in order to understand that they were truly not to blame for their mother's abusive behaviors.  At this point, I decided that my own healing was too important for me to push aside this question about her history in any effort to respect my mom's privacy around the issue. > > The information I got was limited, but also had a big impact on me.  It has validated my intuitions and observations, in spite of her family's secrecy about their childhood abuse and denial about my mother's mental illness. It also allowed me to feel rage on my mother's behalf, if only momentarily, that she has not received more help for what happened to her. I feel angry at a society and a family that would hide my mother's abuse and deny her mental illness, allowing the consequences to fall on me and my brother. And, of course, I still feel angry at her for past and present offenses. > > It doesn't sound like this sort of conversation is possible with your mother, perhaps right now or perhaps ever.  I feel that I had a rare and brief window of time in which this conversation was possible with my own mother, who was emotionally abusive and today behaves better when I keep her at a distance. (Our current relationship is very limited and difficult, and I have no expectation that I can ever trust her or feel close to her.)  However, I want to validate that desire you have to know about her past, and to say that is does matter, and that everything that you feel is understandable. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 I " m not sure what kind of response I would get if I asked about her past. I think it could go in 2 ways, either denial or total breakdown of the truth. I do know that there was some emotional abuse by her mother. She was raised in a very strict household where punishments for bad behavior would now be considered abuse. In those days I guess not. An example is being put in a closet for misbehaving....now a result is some degree of claustrophobia. Let's just say her mother's punishment did not always fit the crime. She has a lot of siblings and they had a tough financial time growing up too. Who knows...maybe one day the opportunity will come for me to ask... and I'll deal with her response then. I think you are right, knowing may not change our relationship but at least let me see a little cleaner as to why she acts this way. Thanks > > > > I want to start by agreeing with everything that has been said, and then to chime in with my perspective on one other piece. > > > > You remarked that you would like to know about your mom's past, but that it would not change anything.  I would like to share my experience. > > > > Last spring, I asked my mom if she was an incest-survivor. (I asked in an e-mail, in which I also requested that get together in person so she could respond.  We made at a coffee shop, which she preferred to being in a private setting.)  I was spurred to ask this question by an academic article about daughters of incest-survivors who happened to have BPD traits. The article reported that it was very healing for daughters to learn about their mother's abuse, in order to understand that they were truly not to blame for their mother's abusive behaviors.  At this point, I decided that my own healing was too important for me to push aside this question about her history in any effort to respect my mom's privacy around the issue. > > > > The information I got was limited, but also had a big impact on me.  It has validated my intuitions and observations, in spite of her family's secrecy about their childhood abuse and denial about my mother's mental illness. It also allowed me to feel rage on my mother's behalf, if only momentarily, that she has not received more help for what happened to her. I feel angry at a society and a family that would hide my mother's abuse and deny her mental illness, allowing the consequences to fall on me and my brother. And, of course, I still feel angry at her for past and present offenses. > > > > It doesn't sound like this sort of conversation is possible with your mother, perhaps right now or perhaps ever.  I feel that I had a rare and brief window of time in which this conversation was possible with my own mother, who was emotionally abusive and today behaves better when I keep her at a distance. (Our current relationship is very limited and difficult, and I have no expectation that I can ever trust her or feel close to her.)  However, I want to validate that desire you have to know about her past, and to say that is does matter, and that everything that you feel is understandable. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 Doug, THANK YOU so much for your email. I felt like you really understood. Finally.... someone can understand what I'm feeling. > Say what, woman!?? Bottom line? It is not about us. It is about her. > You cannot fill her endless black hole of neediness. Let me say that > again. You CANNOT fill her endless neediness. That is not your fault. > First, it is not your job to fulfill her. Second, no human being can do > so. This is so true! Lately I just keep telling myself that! It seems the only way for me to get through various interactions with her. > Oh my God yes. My Nada ( our short hand for our BP moms..Not a > mother...nada) would cry at nothing, and always wanted to be hugged. > But her hugs were not a normal physical expression of affection. When > she hugged me, she took me prisoner. She would grab me around the > throat, cling so hard and so long I felt trapped. Even when I said ok > that s enough, she would just hold on and on. Finally I would have to > pry her fingers and arms off me to get free. OHHHHH MYYYYYY GOD!!! That's me! I too feel like i'm her hostage when she hugs me. It's just not normal. I have to ask you...what kind of response did you get when you told her she cannot hug you? I think my mother would go into one of her crying episodes. My dad will try to deal with it. He would be overwhelmed and would end up calling me to tell me how she's crying, how she took her anxiety medicine and it's not working. Then the guilt cycle would begin all over again. Grrrrrrr. Sometimes I just want to sit them both down and tell them that they need to deal with their own lives and stop crying to me. I'm entitled to my own feelings and wishes. But that would probably make it worse too... It's a lose, lose situation. At the same time, they are SUPPOSEDLY moving abroad, hopefully soon. Some days I'm just sucking it in until they move. > Your dad is a flying monkey, doing the will of the witch. You have to > set bounaries with him as well. Those who chooose to get caught in her > web and be an extension of her must be treated just as she is. It breaks my heart that I have to distance myself from my dad because of my mom. He's a wonderful person, but at the same time an enabler. Thank you so much for sharing some of your experience. It really means a lot. You gave me some great ideas. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 As with everything else, Nada did not respect or even comprehend the idea of me having safe boundaries. She robbed me doubly, because I did WANT to hug my mom! But its like petting a puppy. Lots of fun, but if you do it 50 times and get bitten by the bitch every time, you give up on puppies. I put it to her this way, I am tired of having to beg you to stop a hug every time I let you hug me. For a while, hugs will be only initiated from me. If you want to hug back, ok, but as soon as I let go you must also. ( funny how its like instructing a 3 year old in appropriate behavior.) If I hug you and try to disengage and you refuse to let go, then I will not try a hug again until I feel comfortable. So if you want hugs from me, you must abide by my boundaries. It took time and she often violated it. But I did not relent. So there were occasional hugs after a time, but always I started it, and I stoppped it. I had to set boundaries with her in a number of areas, and she constantly pressed the edges. I stayed firm and enforced them till she died. She did not change, But I had a measure of health. Does it give me guilt? Sure. Part of me still believes the FOG. I should have just rolled over and given whatever she wanted, after all, she was THE MOTHER. But when that part of me start to talk to me, I tell myself to go _____ myself. Then we both have a nice chuckle. Me, and the voices, OH GOD THE VOICES!!! But, no, there are no lasting effects from being a KO. Ya gotta keep smiling kid, ya gotta keep smilin. Re Flying Monkey Dad You might try getting him a copy of SWOE. He might get some insight. Whether he reads it or not, again boundaries boundaries boundaries. You are not an extension of your mom. You are not an extension of your mom on your dad s behalf so he doesnt have to deal with her emotional dysregulation. So, I would have this conversation. Dad, Mom has a pretty profound personality disorder. She is not right emotionally. I d be glad to give you something to read to help you understand. However, whether you believe it or not, I am doing what I have to do to be healthy myself in relation to mom. She doesnt like it, and I dont expect she will. But this is my life, my mental health, and my choice. You can put up with it or deal with it as you choose to, but you have to respect my choices. From now on, I will not talk to you if you call to be her go between and try to manipulate me on her behalf. I love you and want to talk to you, and have a relationship with you. But that cannot happen if you are constantly beating me up about mom s latest crying spell or guilt trip. It s up to you. Now, the result of that talk MAY be he will run and tell her and withdraw. That would be painful, but less painful , I think, than being the victim of the Witch of the West and her Flying Monkey Army. And who knows, he may hear the truth he lives with and choose to try to form a healthy relationship with you. Good luck. Doug > This is so true! Lately I just keep telling myself that! It seems the only way for me to get through various interactions with her. > > OHHHHH MYYYYYY GOD!!! That's me! I too feel like i'm her hostage when she hugs me. It's just not normal. I have to ask you...what kind of response did you get when you told her she cannot hug you? I think my mother would go into one of her crying episodes. My dad will try to deal with it. He would be overwhelmed and would end up calling me to tell me how she's crying, how she took her anxiety medicine and it's not working. Then the guilt cycle would begin all over again. Grrrrrrr. Sometimes I just want to sit them both down and tell them that they need to deal with their own lives and stop crying to me. I'm entitled to my own feelings and wishes. But that would probably make it worse too... It's a lose, lose situation. At the same time, they are SUPPOSEDLY moving abroad, hopefully soon. Some days I'm just sucking it in until they move. > > > Your dad is a flying monkey, doing the will of the witch. You have to > > set bounaries with him as well. Those who chooose to get caught in her > > web and be an extension of her must be treated just as she is. > > > It breaks my heart that I have to distance myself from my dad because of my mom. He's a wonderful person, but at the same time an enabler. > > Thank you so much for sharing some of your experience. It really means a lot. > You gave me some great ideas. > > Thanks > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 hugs from Nada. argh. I think for me I hate them because they are so needy, and she gives them and says her syrupy " i love yous " which lately sound a lot more like desperate " i really DO love yous " because she " can't understand what she did to make me so upset " etc... all while she makes me feel like crap about my perfectly fine life, and subtly sabotages me. The other thing I hate about Nada hugs is that she gives them no matter what along with " I love you " it is just so off. let me question you validity as a person because you are not doing every little thing I require, p.s. " I love you " and here is a awkwardly long and squishy hug. I would love to not hug her for a really long time. I hope to set that boundary but fear the horrible wounded animal it would unleash. she will plead " why? " and I will feel the usual overwhelming guilt. as I listen to her wonder for the billionth time why I have not " forgiven her yet " so everything can go back to " normal " (aka being a wonderful doormat, with no consequences for Nada) she called me today and yes I am not really talking to her on the phone right now, and she is " patiently " waiting for me to stop that, so she can go back to talking to me hours at a time whenever she wants. she needed to " make sure the Christmas package she sent arrived. " I really wonder where her deeply seeded distrust from the P.O. comes from. but it is really annoying. even the smallest letter has to be confirmed by her. (of course delivery confrontation is not enough for her) I was leaving at the time, so thankfully I was able to hang up because I was already late. I think she really just wants her wonderfulness and thoughtfulness for remembering me to be touted. see I am doing everything right, and you STILL wont " forgive " me, even though I have never in my life done anything intentionally hurtful. blah blah blah. ok this is a serious rant. I did some very brave and hard things today and I am having a gremlin attack, so things are raw. Meikjn > > > As with everything else, Nada did not respect or even comprehend the > idea of me having safe boundaries. She robbed me doubly, because I did > WANT to hug my mom! But its like petting a puppy. Lots of fun, but if > you do it 50 times and get bitten by the bitch every time, you give up > on puppies. > > I put it to her this way, I am tired of having to beg you to stop a hug > every time I let you hug me. For a while, hugs will be only initiated > from me. If you want to hug back, ok, but as soon as I let go you must > also. ( funny how its like instructing a 3 year old in appropriate > behavior.) If I hug you and try to disengage and you refuse to let go, > then I will not try a hug again until I feel comfortable. So if you > want hugs from me, you must abide by my boundaries. > > It took time and she often violated it. But I did not relent. So there > were occasional hugs after a time, but always I started it, and I > stoppped it. > > I had to set boundaries with her in a number of areas, and she > constantly pressed the edges. I stayed firm and enforced them till she > died. She did not change, But I had a measure of health. > > Does it give me guilt? Sure. Part of me still believes the FOG. I > should have just rolled over and given whatever she wanted, after all, > she was THE MOTHER. > > But when that part of me start to talk to me, I tell myself to go _____ > myself. Then we both have a nice chuckle. Me, and the voices, OH GOD > THE VOICES!!! > > But, no, there are no lasting effects from being a KO. > > Ya gotta keep smiling kid, ya gotta keep smilin. > > Re Flying Monkey Dad > > You might try getting him a copy of SWOE. He might get some insight. > Whether he reads it or not, again boundaries boundaries boundaries. > You are not an extension of your mom. You are not an extension of your > mom on your dad s behalf so he doesnt have to deal with her emotional > dysregulation. > > So, I would have this conversation. > > Dad, Mom has a pretty profound personality disorder. She is not right > emotionally. I d be glad to give you something to read to help you > understand. However, whether you believe it or not, I am doing what I > have to do to be healthy myself in relation to mom. She doesnt like it, > and I dont expect she will. But this is my life, my mental health, and > my choice. You can put up with it or deal with it as you choose to, > but you have to respect my choices. From now on, I will not talk to you > if you call to be her go between and try to manipulate me on her behalf. > > I love you and want to talk to you, and have a relationship with you. > But that cannot happen if you are constantly beating me up about mom s > latest crying spell or guilt trip. It s up to you. > > Now, the result of that talk MAY be he will run and tell her and > withdraw. That would be painful, but less painful , I think, than being > the victim of the Witch of the West and her Flying Monkey Army. And > who knows, he may hear the truth he lives with and choose to try to > form a healthy relationship with you. > > > > Good luck. > > Doug > > > > > This is so true! Lately I just keep telling myself that! It seems the > only way for me to get through various interactions with her. > > > > OHHHHH MYYYYYY GOD!!! That's me! I too feel like i'm her hostage when > she hugs me. It's just not normal. I have to ask you...what kind of > response did you get when you told her she cannot hug you? I think my > mother would go into one of her crying episodes. My dad will try to deal > with it. He would be overwhelmed and would end up calling me to tell me > how she's crying, how she took her anxiety medicine and it's not > working. Then the guilt cycle would begin all over again. Grrrrrrr. > Sometimes I just want to sit them both down and tell them that they need > to deal with their own lives and stop crying to me. I'm entitled to my > own feelings and wishes. But that would probably make it worse too... > It's a lose, lose situation. At the same time, they are SUPPOSEDLY > moving abroad, hopefully soon. Some days I'm just sucking it in until > they move. > > > > > Your dad is a flying monkey, doing the will of the witch. You have > to > > > set bounaries with him as well. Those who chooose to get caught in > her > > > web and be an extension of her must be treated just as she is. > > > > > > It breaks my heart that I have to distance myself from my dad because > of my mom. He's a wonderful person, but at the same time an enabler. > > > > Thank you so much for sharing some of your experience. It really means > a lot. > > You gave me some great ideas. > > > > Thanks > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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