Re: Test results...progesterone

[Guest guest]

May I jump in here?

Could progesterone have helped to crash my adrenals? My DHEA was really high.

Could that have been from using progesterone?

I stopped progesterone 3 months ago and I'm getting blood sex hormone labs. I

have hope. Thanks to all for your dedication to us.

RE: Test results...progesterone

Here is the thing about progesterone. Progesterone is a major precursor of

both aldosterone and cortisol. It is very necessary for adrenals. I like

Dr.Lam's info:

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/adrenal_fatigue.cfm

You can also google " adrenals progesterone " and find excellent info and

studies.

I am more and more sure that the saliva Diagnos Techs are not accurate for

progesterone in adrenal fatigue and found at least two articles discussing false

elevated levels on it. It has something to do with poor adrenals pulling from

progesterone (which you would think would show low progesterone). I don't have

the full answer on this, but I don't trust the test. I showed super high on my

last two labs over the past 6 months and I am low and started to supplement with

cream again. I feel much better on cream and progesterone is really needed for

adrenals. I also found this high reading tends to happen more with people in

late stage adrenal fatigue. I have talked to at least half a dozen people who

say the same thing about their labs and are from stage 5 to stage 7. They were

all low in progesterone and the saliva test showed super high.

I think you can add progesterone cream with your HC protocol as you try to

help your adrenals. I definitely felt worse when I weaned off my cream (got the

estrogen dominance symptoms again) and am going to stay on it longer until I

feel more stable. Just don't go too high. Too high will give you a whole new set

of problems. I don't recommend more than 44 mg a day and I split mine. My jar

says I can use up to 88 mg a day but I don't.

[Guest guest]

Were you on a high dose for a long time? Oral or cream?

I don't know the relationship specifically with DHEA but I do know it helps

with cortisol utilization.

Cheri

Re: Test results...progesterone

May I jump in here?

Could progesterone have helped to crash my adrenals? My DHEA was really

high. Could that have been from using progesterone?

I stopped progesterone 3 months ago and I'm getting blood sex hormone

labs. I have hope. Thanks to all for your dedication to us.

.

[Guest guest]

This is very interesting, b/c I've had 2 saliva tests done in the last

15 months - both showed AF and High progesterone, but I haven't

supplemented with progestrone in quite a while. Dr. Mead with Labrix

(one of the saliva companies) was so shocked with my results that he

offered to re-test me for free! I just did the test last weekend and

sent it off Tuesday so I don't have the results yet. I certainly have

tons of symptoms of low progestrone, but have been hesitant to start

using it again due to my test results. I'll see how these latest

results come out and post them.

Lexie

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Cherie,

I was on it sporadically, when I remembered. Used it for a few months and

stopped when my DHEA was 623 in September. DHEA is one of the tests I'll be

having soon.

----- Original Message -----

From: MsSquarepants

Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:43 PM

Were you on a high dose for a long time? Oral or cream?

I don't know the relationship specifically with DHEA but I do know it helps

with cortisol utilization.

[Guest guest]

Yes, please let us know. The high progesterone on mine shocked me too

because I had not used progesterone in 5 years and I was suffering severely

from low progesterone and high estrogen symptoms. My symptoms are so much

better on the cream so I am ignoring that part of my tests. I plan on

writing to Diagnos Tech as well as ZRT about the incidence of false elevated

results. I do know that tons of different things you eat can give false

elevated numbers like cocoa or chocolate. That is one bad thing about saliva

tests.

I do know in googling some people on other lists have posted their results

and there was a very common pattern of showing high estrogen when people

were not.

Cheri

-----Original Message-----

This is very interesting, b/c I've had 2 saliva tests done in the last

15 months - both showed AF and High progesterone, but I haven't

supplemented with progestrone in quite a while. Dr. Mead with Labrix

(one of the saliva companies) was so shocked with my results that he

offered to re-test me for free! I just did the test last weekend and

sent it off Tuesday so I don't have the results yet. I certainly have

tons of symptoms of low progestrone, but have been hesitant to start

using it again due to my test results. I'll see how these latest

results come out and post them.

Lexie

>

.

[Guest guest]

>>I don't know the relationship specifically with DHEA but I do know it

helps

with cortisol utilization.

Cheri>>

Cheri,

I'm trying to follow what you are saying about DHEA: what do you mean

when you say " it helps with cortisol utilization? "

The reason I am asking is that when I take even small amounts of DHEA, I

develop symptoms that feel to me like overactive thyroid and I have to

cut back my armour dose or I get terribly overanxious and jumpy, loaded

with muscle tension and overall, 'primed' but in a way that feels awful.

Most recently I've had to cut back my armour dose in response to very

tiny amounts of DHEA taken sub-lingually. Recent blood tests showed DHEA

to be almost non-existent.

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

>>Yes, please let us know. The high progesterone on mine shocked me too

because I had not used progesterone in 5 years and I was suffering

severely

from low progesterone and high estrogen symptoms. My symptoms are so much

better on the cream so I am ignoring that part of my tests.

Cheri>>

Hi Cheri,

You should read Vliet if you haven't. She feels the saliva

tests are inaccurate and only uses blood serum levels for hormones.

Also, she doesn't agree with the theory of 'estrogen dominance' and the

goodness of progesterone for solving all our problems. She is really

interesting and if you haven't read her books, you may be interested.

The only thing bad about them are the titles:

SCREAMING TO BE HEARD

IT'S YOUR OVARIES STUPID (is that the worst title you ever heard? what

was she thinking?!)

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

Hmmm...that's interesting to see. My progesterone showed up high on

that test as well. Cortisol was super low and estrogen very high.

[Guest guest]

Estrogen high with cortisol low makes sense because when you raise cortisol

to healthy levels, estrogen drops.

The high progesterone just doesnt' make sense with AF patients so I am going

to research this more. Especially when the patients suffer from low progest

symptoms or have tested low on the blood tests.

Cheri

-----Original Message-----

Hmmm...that's interesting to see. My progesterone showed up high on

that test as well. Cortisol was super low and estrogen very high.

.

[Guest guest]

Dahlia,

Just to clarify, I didn't make the statement of converting about DHEA. I

said that about progesterone. Check out the Dr. Lam link I sent.

Progesterone is a precursor to cortisol. The adrenals use progesterone to

create cortisol.

As far as DHEA, I am still learning on that as I tend to react to it too. I

am super low (not even at " 1 " on my last test) and yet when I supplement I

am having all kinds of issues. I know the balance of DHEA to cortisol is

important. However, I think everyone reacts differently to it and it

converts to different things in different people. I think with me, it

creates more estrogen issues which I don't want. It also seemed to increase

my testosterone. That part was good for awhile, but the other side effects

outweighed it. I am going to try 5 mg again and see what happens.

Cheri

-----Original Message-----

>>I don't know the relationship specifically with DHEA but I do know it

helps

with cortisol utilization.

Cheri>>

Cheri,

I'm trying to follow what you are saying about DHEA: what do you mean

when you say " it helps with cortisol utilization? "

The reason I am asking is that when I take even small amounts of DHEA, I

develop symptoms that feel to me like overactive thyroid and I have to

cut back my armour dose or I get terribly overanxious and jumpy, loaded

with muscle tension and overall, 'primed' but in a way that feels awful.

Most recently I've had to cut back my armour dose in response to very

tiny amounts of DHEA taken sub-lingually. Recent blood tests showed DHEA

to be almost non-existent.

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

You sound like me when it comes to DHEA. I am very low but have had many

reactions trying to take it orally but am now taking it prescribed as compounded

cream in vials each containing 5 mgs. I am tolerating this much better but

still don't know if it will increase my estrogen. I sure hope it can raise my

cholesterol like Val said. I also think I need to get my DHEA/cortisol ratio

balanced for sure because I think this is playing a role in my severe anxiety

and panic problems.

RE: Re: Test results...progesterone

Dahlia,

Just to clarify, I didn't make the statement of converting about DHEA. I

said that about progesterone. Check out the Dr. Lam link I sent.

Progesterone is a precursor to cortisol. The adrenals use progesterone to

create cortisol.

As far as DHEA, I am still learning on that as I tend to react to it too. I

am super low (not even at " 1 " on my last test) and yet when I supplement I

am having all kinds of issues. I know the balance of DHEA to cortisol is

important. However, I think everyone reacts differently to it and it

converts to different things in different people. I think with me, it

creates more estrogen issues which I don't want. It also seemed to increase

my testosterone. That part was good for awhile, but the other side effects

outweighed it. I am going to try 5 mg again and see what happens.

Cheri

-----Original Message-----

>>I don't know the relationship specifically with DHEA but I do know it

helps

with cortisol utilization.

Cheri>>

Cheri,

I'm trying to follow what you are saying about DHEA: what do you mean

when you say " it helps with cortisol utilization? "

The reason I am asking is that when I take even small amounts of DHEA, I

develop symptoms that feel to me like overactive thyroid and I have to

cut back my armour dose or I get terribly overanxious and jumpy, loaded

with muscle tension and overall, 'primed' but in a way that feels awful.

Most recently I've had to cut back my armour dose in response to very

tiny amounts of DHEA taken sub-lingually. Recent blood tests showed DHEA

to be almost non-existent.

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Dahlia.

I think that is a correct statement you made that progesterone isn't the

cure-all and I don't approach it that way. I don't think just increasing

progesterone is the cure since detoxifying is the bigger issue, but I think

it is a part of the whole since high estrogen lowers cortisol and

progesterone is a precursor to cortisol. I know I have had good results with

it. I am also pre-menopausal so I imagine a post menopausal woman would have

a whole set of different issues. I also don't think it is not for everyone

and I know people who have O'D on too much progesterone, particularly

following the Wiley protocol. It is very much an individual thing based on

what is going on with the person. I think the type of progesterone one uses

is important, too. I am probably not on the most effective kind but will use

up what I have and get a compounded one after that.

Interesting you should mention her. I know a few things about her. She

started her own health company with one of the branch offices located in my

city. This is her website: www.herplace.com She charges nearly $4000 and

then has a disclaimer on her website that they only are a " consultative "

practice not meant to replace your regular physician. Basically she is

charging several thousand dollars for what a $141 Diagnos Tech test and

's input can tell you. No, I take that back. has a lot more

knowledge in my opinion, especially on the thyroid and adrenal relationship.

is all about the $$ from what I hear. I bet if you Google you can

find more complaints. Locally, I have met many of her former patients. TONS

of complaints. " Scam artist " is what I most frequently hear from them. I am

also on her email list. She was listed on the top docs on the thyroid site

by Shomon for a short time and got removed. I later heard it was a

staff member who put her on the list to begin with using a faux testimonial.

Not sure if it is true. Another thing I heard was she got removed because of

a lot of complaints, though won't confirm the reason due to legal

exposure. I don't really read the newsletters she sends me anymore because

I found her style to be a lot of pushing her own agenda. I also disagreed

with a lot of what I read, much like Dr. Northrup. True, she had some good

stuff but it is the same stuff you can find elsewhere with more reputable

docs. Vliet seems so much about promoting herself and $$ which really turns

me off. I haven't met anyone who has gone to her who has stayed with her.

We have a lot of nationally know docs in Tucson like Dr. Weil and Dr.

(adrenal fatigue book). The advantage of that is you get to meet a lot of

them in person or get to know their patients so you get the stories first

hand. Dr. Weil has done some good, like opening the integrated medicine

school here and getting naturopaths certified. However, he has also sold out

for the $$ and I find his knowledge very limited when you get beyond the

more simplistic things. He has a vitamin line too which is overpriced and

not very good. My city has more super sick people than anywhere I have lived

and most people here look 10-15 years older than people in the Midwest. You

would think if all these doctors are so great that there weren't so many

disgruntled and ill patients here. I can tell you thyroid disease is an

epidemic. I can go to Kmart, the post office, the grocery store...and it is

common to see 17 year old girls with hardly any hair left on their heads.

Half the staff at one of the health stores I purchase from have been

diagnosed with thyroid disease and adrenal disease and these are all young

women in their early 20s! I keep telling them to join this group, lol. Most

have been through at least 10 doctors. You would think with all these

supposedly great doctors that we would have the healthiest people here than

anywhere. I personally found the health care much worse here than when I

lived on the East coast and in the Midwest.

I know estrogen dominance is a real issue based on numerous environmental

studies I have read-- not just related to humans--but animals too. The

estrogenic chemicals in our environment is a huge issue. They are even

causing sterilization in male fish. Suzuki, a Canadian geneticist, has

researched and written the most amazing things on what we are dong to our

environment and how it is impacting our health. He has done several

excellent movies and has a foundation up in Canada. Oh, and this chemical

induced " estrogen " isn't the same thing as natural estrogen. Which I think

is the problem. People can actually be estrogen dominant with the " fake "

estrogens and be low on real estrogen because the receptors are clogged up

with the chemical junk which isn't allowing the needed real estrogen into

the cells. I was surprised to learn that.

Cheri

-----Original Message-----

Hi Cheri,

You should read Vliet if you haven't. She feels the saliva

tests are inaccurate and only uses blood serum levels for hormones.

Also, she doesn't agree with the theory of 'estrogen dominance' and the

goodness of progesterone for solving all our problems. She is really

interesting and if you haven't read her books, you may be interested.

Dahlia

.

[Guest guest]

>>Just to clarify, I didn't make the statement of converting about DHEA.

I

said that about progesterone. Check out the Dr. Lam link I sent.

Progesterone is a precursor to cortisol. The adrenals use progesterone to

create cortisol.>>

I'm sorry, I can't remember what you said, lol. I did read the Lam link

and liked it very much. Thanks.

>>As far as DHEA, I am still learning on that as I tend to react to it

too. I

am super low (not even at " 1 " on my last test) and yet when I supplement

I

am having all kinds of issues. I know the balance of DHEA to cortisol is

important. However, I think everyone reacts differently to it and it

converts to different things in different people. I think with me, it

creates more estrogen issues which I don't want. It also seemed to

increase

my testosterone. That part was good for awhile, but the other side

effects

outweighed it. I am going to try 5 mg again and see what happens.>>

Curious what form you were taking DHEA in?...I'm wondering if cream would

be better for both of us. I'm going to ask my alt doc tomorrow and let

you know.

<Cheri>

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

>>I think that is a correct statement you made that progesterone isn't

the

cure-all and I don't approach it that way......I also don't think it is

not for everyone

and I know people who have O'D on too much progesterone, particularly

following the Wiley protocol. It is very much an individual thing based

on

what is going on with the person. I think the type of progesterone one

uses

is important, too. I am probably not on the most effective kind but will

use

up what I have and get a compounded one after that.>>

Hi Cheri,

Yes, I agree there with you. I'm thinking that otc progesterone may not

be as good as compounded.

Interesting what you say about the Wiley Protocol....what a nightmare

that turned into for many!

As far as E. Vliet, I had no idea she was a controversial figure! Some

friends just turned me on to her work and I find it very interesting, no

clue what she's like or what her practice is like. Alarming!

>>I know estrogen dominance is a real issue based on numerous

environmental

studies I have read-- not just related to humans--but animals too.People

can actually be estrogen dominant with the " fake " estrogens and be low on

real estrogen because the receptors are clogged up...>> "

I'm new at this, but my sense is that the problem is the type of

estrogen, not estrogen per se....that also seems to be what you're saying

if I'm getting it.

Thanks for your post...I appreciate the info...I'm still learning...

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

Well, she actually DOES have some good info, the problem is she also has a

lot of wrong stuff too and basically just takes what others wrote and turns

it into a money making thing. People like Dr. Lam give so much good info

free (he has emailed me within a week when I contacted him) and people like

Dr. Rind. I admire and respect those people a lot more.

However, if it helps people become more aware and educated on their journey

to read her books, listen to her radio casts, etc. then more power to them.

Same with Suzanne Somers. She is a big supporter of the Wiley program (which

I think is insane after researching it), yet she also has tons of very true

and useful info. I have at least one of her books.

So, as long as people use these as a starting point or realize it won't all

be accurate, then there is nothing wrong getting what you can from it. I

just would not advise anyone to see her in person for how much she charges

and what you get for it, lol.

Cheri

Re: Test results...progesterone

Hi Cheri,

Yes, I agree there with you. I'm thinking that otc progesterone may not

be as good as compounded.

Interesting what you say about the Wiley Protocol....what a nightmare

that turned into for many!

As far as E. Vliet, I had no idea she was a controversial figure! Some

friends just turned me on to her work and I find it very interesting, no

clue what she's like or what her practice is like. Alarming!

Dahlia

[

.

[Guest guest]

I am going to try cream eventually but I am using so many creams right now

(all my HC) I am running out of body parts, lol. I was taking a powdered

capsule from Enzymatic Therapy.

Cheri

-----Original Message-----

Curious what form you were taking DHEA in?...I'm wondering if cream would

be better for both of us. I'm going to ask my alt doc tomorrow and let

you know.

Dahlia

.