Prednisolone timing

[Guest guest]

My dosing schedule of HC and pred liquid isn't working very well, at

least it didn't last night or very well the night before. And, I feel

like I am sleepiest from 7AM to noon. Is it possible that the pred is

working on that long of a delay? Maybe I need to be taking this stuff

at 5 or even 4PM or earlier?

Yesterday I dosed like this: 12.5mg at 8:45AM (couldn't get out of

bed); 10mg at 12:30PM; 7.5mg at 3:30PM; 2.5mg and 1ml of pred at 7PM,

and 2.5mg of cream at bed-time. I rubbed the cream in under my knee

and I think that I lost part of it in the hair under there. I woke up

at 3AM after three hours of sleep and had to go to the bathroom and

when I laid back down my stomach started it's rumbling thing and I

decided to try to ignore it and go back to sleep. I did manage to

fall back to sleep - until 4AM when I woke up again, sweating, and

knew that I was low on cortisol - at that point 9 hours after I took

the pred. I got up and took 2.5mg of HC with some cheese and thought

that I would be able to get back to sleep, but it took .25 of Klonopin

and another hour before I could - shades of my usual wake ups from low

cortisol.

Today I dosed 10mg at 8:30AM (reducing that dose by 2.5mg b/c of the

middle of the night dose), 10mg at noon, 7.5mg at 3:30, 2.5mg and 1ml

of pred at 6:30PM and I intend to use 5mg of my old " bad " store-bought

cream before bed b/c even when I rubbed the compounded cream on my

abdomen where I think it absorbs better, I woke up sweating in the

middle of the night Sat. night and, despite getting back to sleep,

woke up not feeling rested and needed to go back to bed from 10:30 to

noon or so. I don't know whether to blame it on the small dose or the

cream or both, but the stuff with the aloe, parabens, and mineral oil

just seems to last longer which is what I need to hold me through the

night.

Suggestions?

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

12.5mg at 8:45AM (couldn't get out of

bed); 10mg at 12:30PM; 7.5mg at 3:30PM; 2.5mg and 1ml of pred at 7PM,

and 2.5mg of cream at bed-time.

What I see here is you are MORNING loading and then letting levels drop too much

at 3;30pm your dose shoudl be a bit higher for good rythm. Try this

10 - 10 - 7.5 - 5 - 1ml pred(7PM0 and 2.5cream at bedtime

If you are runnign too low at 4-5 you will use the Pred up very quickly as you

are running at a deficit.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

[Guest guest]

Amazon just delivered Thierry Hertoghe's book The Hormone Solution and

I was reading his chapter on sleep. He says " don't take cortisol or a

derivative before going to bed or you'll risk insomnia. Whenever you

take it, be careful to avoid excessive doses, particularly in the

second half of the day and definitely at bedtime. "

Based on that, IF you still didn't sleep well, and want to try

something new, how about: 10/10/5+1.25 pred/7.5/2.5 or 5

He goes on to say that deficiencies in any of the following can affect

sleep: DHEA, estrogen, growth hormone, melatonin, progesterone,

testosterone, and thyroid. You might try adding in 5 mg of DHEA first

thing in a.m. It might also help you wake up. I think you said you

tried melatonin and that didn't work, and I know your next thyroid

increase with be at bedtime. Wouldn't wnat to mess with the other

hormones till you get thyroid optimal.

Why does thyroid at bedtime help with sleep, since people tend to think

it would do the opposite? " People low in thyroid hormones doze for

longer, lingering in stages 1 and 2 but sleep less deeply (stages 3 and

4). When they take supplemental thyroid hormones, the restorative deep

sleep lasts longer and the superficial sleep is shorter. "

I can attest to the fact that both DH and I seem to be dreaming more

since we've increased thyroid. In fact, he was " running " last night

and kicked me LOL! (Amazon also brought some EFT books to help with

his PTSD.)

Barb

" jasrich " wrote:

>

> Well, dosing as I did yesterday which was 2.5mg at 4AM, 10mg at

> 8:30AM, 10mg at noon; 7.5mg at around 3:30AM, 2.5mg at 6:30 and 1ml of

> pred, and 5mg of cream at bed-time (11PM) and after taking my .5mg of

> klonopin AND 1/2 a Lunesta I slept from 11:30 to 4:45 and that was it.

[Guest guest]

>>Amazon just delivered Thierry Hertoghe's book The Hormone Solution and

I was reading his chapter on sleep. He says " don't take cortisol or a

derivative before going to bed or you'll risk insomnia. Whenever you

take it, be careful to avoid excessive doses, particularly in the

second half of the day and definitely at bedtime. " <<

WHile I love Dr Hertoghe, and admire his owrk, I have seen differnt wiht too

many people to say this is a hard and fast rule. MANY need cortiol at bedtime

for restful sleep, I am one of them! Hypoglycemia during the night can be

corrected by takign a bedtime dose and it WILL wake you up if it happens in the

night from low cortiosl. Cortisl is responsible for maintainin normal glucose

levels between meals so you don;t go hypoglycemic and this includes at night

time when we sleep if it is low, you will not sleep any better than if it is

high.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

[Guest guest]

Sorry you misunderstood me. I agree COMPLETELY with you, and that's

why most here take a night dose (including my DH). I think the

tapering you recommend throughout the day is why it works. I was

interpreting his comments specifically for . I was thinking the

synthetic pred is being taken too late in the day for him because it

works differently than the HC we all take, which runs out after 4

hours. The dosing I recommended still included a nighttime dose.

Barb

wrote:

>

> >>Amazon just delivered Thierry Hertoghe's book The Hormone

Solution and

> I was reading his chapter on sleep. He says " don't take cortisol

or a

> derivative before going to bed or you'll risk insomnia. Whenever

you

> take it, be careful to avoid excessive doses, particularly in the

> second half of the day and definitely at bedtime. " <<

>

> WHile I love Dr Hertoghe, and admire his owrk, I have seen differnt

wiht too many people to say this is a hard and fast rule. MANY need

cortiol at bedtime for restful sleep, I am one of them! Hypoglycemia

during the night can be corrected by takign a bedtime dose and it

WILL wake you up if it happens in the night from low cortiosl.

Cortisl is responsible for maintainin normal glucose levels between

meals so you don;t go hypoglycemic and this includes at night time

when we sleep if it is low, you will not sleep any better than if it

is high.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb, I did sleep last night - very well *happy sigh*. I was still

sleepy and groggy and cranky today, but I'll take that over 3-5AM wake

ups any day. And, I didn't a big gooey snack of nut butter 1/2 hour

before I went to bed b/c my stomach was so messed up last night that I

couldn't stand the thought of it and was just hoping that the better

rhythm and higher dose of pred would help which it did. I'm going to

stick with this dose and rhythm as Val said and hope for a repeat and

hold off on thyroid, despite my severely aching back and other stuff,

for a while longer. I have tested low for DHEA at least three times

and we just tested it again along with my aldosterone and renin

(although new doc specified DHEA w/out sulfate for some reason). If

it's low again I still have my 5mg DHEA caps at home and I might add

it in, just once, in the AM. Val has pointed it out several times,

but none of these docs have been very interested in doing anything

with it.

Now I need to learn more about HC troches b/c the pred is even harder

on the GI than the HC and I need to relieve that.

Thanks,

> >

> > >>Amazon just delivered Thierry Hertoghe's book The Hormone

> Solution and

> > I was reading his chapter on sleep. He says " don't take cortisol

> or a

> > derivative before going to bed or you'll risk insomnia. Whenever

> you

> > take it, be careful to avoid excessive doses, particularly in the

> > second half of the day and definitely at bedtime. " <<

> >

> > WHile I love Dr Hertoghe, and admire his owrk, I have seen differnt

> wiht too many people to say this is a hard and fast rule. MANY need

> cortiol at bedtime for restful sleep, I am one of them! Hypoglycemia

> during the night can be corrected by takign a bedtime dose and it

> WILL wake you up if it happens in the night from low cortiosl.

> Cortisl is responsible for maintainin normal glucose levels between

> meals so you don;t go hypoglycemic and this includes at night time

> when we sleep if it is low, you will not sleep any better than if it

> is high.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm honestly not sure whether it is kicking in early and running out

(when I have trouble waking up between 3-5AM) or kicking in too late

and leaving me short over-night when it should be working. 7PM seemed

to work out pretty good for me last night, although it was hell on my

stomach after I took it for some reason. Strangely, 1tsp of

mag/citrate which I thought caused more stomach upset, seemed to calm

the stomach down last night so I'll stick with that.

Does anyone know if there is a way of telling when it does kick in?

Lately, since being on it, I do tend to get even more tired and sleepy

around 8-9PM, like I used to fall asleep in front of the TV before I

started treating with any of this stuff, and I get a slight headache.

Maybe that is the pred kicking. If so, it starts 1-2 hours after I

take it.

>

> Sorry you misunderstood me. I agree COMPLETELY with you, and that's

> why most here take a night dose (including my DH). I think the

> tapering you recommend throughout the day is why it works. I was

> interpreting his comments specifically for . I was thinking the

> synthetic pred is being taken too late in the day for him because it

> works differently than the HC we all take, which runs out after 4

> hours. The dosing I recommended still included a nighttime dose.

>

[Guest guest]

Here's what confuses me. I thought HC WAKES someone up, not puts

them to sleep. Here's my latest theory. If you take the pred with

HC, your body uses the HC, and leaves the pred floating in your

blood. If you have no HC, then your body uses up the pred. The way

you dose, you finally run out of HC about 3 a.m, since you took HC at

bedtime.

But it also seems like the pred is somehow suppressing any natural

ACTH that wakes you up for 15 hours! You've always had a problem

sleeping, but in the morning, you just had a tiredness from not

sleeping before, not a drugged, zombie feeling. That's why I thought

you might try pushing the pred all the way back to 4 p.m. (maybe try

it on the weekend), but continue regular tapered HC dosing schedule.

And it almost seems that for you, 12.5 first thing just doesn't work.

Even WITH pred!

Just tossing out some ideas. I consider you a case study that I'm

still learning from.

Barb

" jasrich " wrote:

>

> I'm honestly not sure whether it is kicking in early and running out

> (when I have trouble waking up between 3-5AM) or kicking in too late

> and leaving me short over-night when it should be working. 7PM

seemed

> to work out pretty good for me last night, although it was hell on

my

> stomach after I took it for some reason. Strangely, 1tsp of

> mag/citrate which I thought caused more stomach upset, seemed to

calm

> the stomach down last night so I'll stick with that.

>

> Does anyone know if there is a way of telling when it does kick in?

> Lately, since being on it, I do tend to get even more tired and

sleepy

> around 8-9PM, like I used to fall asleep in front of the TV before

I

> started treating with any of this stuff, and I get a slight

headache.

> Maybe that is the pred kicking. If so, it starts 1-2 hours after I

> take it.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Sorry you misunderstood me. I agree COMPLETELY with you, and

that's

> > why most here take a night dose (including my DH). I think the

> > tapering you recommend throughout the day is why it works. I was

> > interpreting his comments specifically for . I was thinking

the

> > synthetic pred is being taken too late in the day for him because

it

> > works differently than the HC we all take, which runs out after 4

> > hours. The dosing I recommended still included a nighttime

dose.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Here's what confuses me. I thought HC WAKES someone up, not puts

them to sleep. Here's my latest theory. If you take the pred with

HC, your body uses the HC, and leaves the pred floating in your

blood. If you have no HC, then your body uses up the pred. The way

you dose, you finally run out of HC about 3 a.m, since you took HC at

bedtime.

But it also seems like the pred is somehow suppressing any natural

ACTH that wakes you up for 15 hours! You've always had a problem

sleeping, but in the morning, you just had a tiredness from not

sleeping before, not a drugged, zombie feeling. That's why I thought

you might try pushing the pred all the way back to 4 p.m. (maybe try

it on the weekend), but continue regular tapered HC dosing schedule.

And it almost seems that for you, 12.5 first thing just doesn't work.

Even WITH pred!

Just tossing out some ideas. I consider you a case study that I'm

still learning from.

Barb

" jasrich " wrote:

>

> I'm honestly not sure whether it is kicking in early and running out

> (when I have trouble waking up between 3-5AM) or kicking in too late

> and leaving me short over-night when it should be working. 7PM

seemed

> to work out pretty good for me last night, although it was hell on

my

> stomach after I took it for some reason. Strangely, 1tsp of

> mag/citrate which I thought caused more stomach upset, seemed to

calm

> the stomach down last night so I'll stick with that.

>

> Does anyone know if there is a way of telling when it does kick in?

> Lately, since being on it, I do tend to get even more tired and

sleepy

> around 8-9PM, like I used to fall asleep in front of the TV before

I

> started treating with any of this stuff, and I get a slight

headache.

> Maybe that is the pred kicking. If so, it starts 1-2 hours after I

> take it.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Sorry you misunderstood me. I agree COMPLETELY with you, and

that's

> > why most here take a night dose (including my DH). I think the

> > tapering you recommend throughout the day is why it works. I was

> > interpreting his comments specifically for . I was thinking

the

> > synthetic pred is being taken too late in the day for him because

it

> > works differently than the HC we all take, which runs out after 4

> > hours. The dosing I recommended still included a nighttime

dose.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Here's what confuses me. I thought HC WAKES someone up, not puts

them to sleep. Here's my latest theory. If you take the pred with

HC, your body uses the HC, and leaves the pred floating in your

blood. If you have no HC, then your body uses up the pred. The way

you dose, you finally run out of HC about 3 a.m, since you took HC at

bedtime.

But it also seems like the pred is somehow suppressing any natural

ACTH that wakes you up for 15 hours! You've always had a problem

sleeping, but in the morning, you just had a tiredness from not

sleeping before, not a drugged, zombie feeling. That's why I thought

you might try pushing the pred all the way back to 4 p.m. (maybe try

it on the weekend), but continue regular tapered HC dosing schedule.

And it almost seems that for you, 12.5 first thing just doesn't work.

Even WITH pred!

Just tossing out some ideas. I consider you a case study that I'm

still learning from.

Barb

" jasrich " wrote:

>

> I'm honestly not sure whether it is kicking in early and running out

> (when I have trouble waking up between 3-5AM) or kicking in too late

> and leaving me short over-night when it should be working. 7PM

seemed

> to work out pretty good for me last night, although it was hell on

my

> stomach after I took it for some reason. Strangely, 1tsp of

> mag/citrate which I thought caused more stomach upset, seemed to

calm

> the stomach down last night so I'll stick with that.

>

> Does anyone know if there is a way of telling when it does kick in?

> Lately, since being on it, I do tend to get even more tired and

sleepy

> around 8-9PM, like I used to fall asleep in front of the TV before

I

> started treating with any of this stuff, and I get a slight

headache.

> Maybe that is the pred kicking. If so, it starts 1-2 hours after I

> take it.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Sorry you misunderstood me. I agree COMPLETELY with you, and

that's

> > why most here take a night dose (including my DH). I think the

> > tapering you recommend throughout the day is why it works. I was

> > interpreting his comments specifically for . I was thinking

the

> > synthetic pred is being taken too late in the day for him because

it

> > works differently than the HC we all take, which runs out after 4

> > hours. The dosing I recommended still included a nighttime

dose.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I couldn't string together two nights of decent sleep - woke up

at 3AM, 4, 5, 6, etc.

What did I do differently yesterday? I had a more stressful day than

average at work and had to move my 11:30 dose of 10mg up to 11AM, and

my 3:30 dose up to 2PM b/c I was starting to get dizzy and needed it,

and I had to stress dose 2.5mg between 2PM and 6:30PM because I needed

that. I felt like I was burning through the cortisol and running on

adrenalin for most of the day. I took my pred. at 7PM as I did the

night before and had less GI trouble than the night before (I think

that the night before was worse b/c of dinner). The only other thing

is that I rubbed in my cream on my neck and collar bone instead of the

insides of my arms or abdomen just to rotate - the skin seems thin and

smooth enough there and I can see the veins under the skin so I

thought it would be OK.

So, I didn't do much different, but had a very different result

sleeping. It's so tough to judge when the pred. starts working without

knowing how that it is supposed to feel, but I know that when I take

it at 7PM and I start feeling very tired around 9PM and I just hang on

for another 45 minutes to an hour to spend some time with my wife

before I get ready for bed. If that feeling is the pred kicking in, I

think that it's running out over night on nights following days when I

have built up a cortisol deficit, but I don't know.

>

> Here's what confuses me. I thought HC WAKES someone up, not puts

> them to sleep. Here's my latest theory. If you take the pred with

> HC, your body uses the HC, and leaves the pred floating in your

> blood. If you have no HC, then your body uses up the pred. The way

> you dose, you finally run out of HC about 3 a.m, since you took HC at

> bedtime.

>

> But it also seems like the pred is somehow suppressing any natural

> ACTH that wakes you up for 15 hours! You've always had a problem

> sleeping, but in the morning, you just had a tiredness from not

> sleeping before, not a drugged, zombie feeling. That's why I thought

> you might try pushing the pred all the way back to 4 p.m. (maybe try

> it on the weekend), but continue regular tapered HC dosing schedule.

> And it almost seems that for you, 12.5 first thing just doesn't work.

> Even WITH pred!

>

> Just tossing out some ideas. I consider you a case study that I'm

> still learning from.

>

> Barb

>

[Guest guest]

Thought I'd throw my 2 cents in just to confuse things further... HC

seems to have a real sedative effect on me. I first tried Cortef 4x

day in very small amounts and felt awful - weak, sleepy, foggy, shaky,

very hungry in a hypoglycemic way but also nauseous - very soon after

taking each bit. I don't think it was suppression because those

feelings were within 1/2-1 hour after taking it. I then started the

cream, thinking it would be easier on my stomach (it is) but I still

get the same effects. Strange thing is that it does make me sleep - I

haven't had the wide-awake heart pounding at 3 am that I normally have.

I'm trying to sort out a bearable schedule for dosing with the cream

to avoid the bad feelings during the day but haven't quite hit it yet.

- (in UK)

>

> Here's what confuses me. I thought HC WAKES someone up, not puts

> them to sleep. Here's my latest theory. If you take the pred with

> HC, your body uses the HC, and leaves the pred floating in your

> blood. If you have no HC, then your body uses up the pred. The way

> you dose, you finally run out of HC about 3 a.m, since you took HC at

> bedtime.

[Guest guest]

, when you get these effects from HC it is from it stopping the

constant adrenaline surges from low cortiosl and hypoglycemia, it can

feel VERY relaxing and sedative as your body is used ot havign

adrenlaine all the time. As soon as oyu addapt to not having the

adrenaline, this sedating effect will not happen.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://www.seewell4less.com/Valspage.htm Medical Alert Bracelets