What makes all the difference for my sleep...

[Guest guest]

mentioned food being a sleep factor, and it absolutely is for

my family.

I am worn out from my Venofer treatments, so forgive me if this is

short and (hopefully) to the point. MSG is a HUGE contributor to

sleep issues. Glutamate/glutamine in its natural/free form seems to

act in the same way as MSG in susceptible people.

Here are some websites I highly recommend:

www.msgmyth.org - Her book is very worth the money

www.dogtorj.com - This guy is actually a vet - Val should love this

site!

Another related problem could be amines.

www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.com is a good place to start. Another

good one is www.fedupwithfoodadditives.com.

Just because you eat " all-natural " and organic does not mean you are

avoiding all forms of neuroactive compounds.

That cheese you are eating to balance blood sugar could be why you're

not sleeping. It would keep me up. It is very high in free

glutamate.

I know a lot of folks here are watching their diets, and this seems

to another layer to the gluten free and everything-else-free, but I

was able to get off heavy-duty sleep drugs by watching glutamine and

other amines....and beginning Cortef.

As guts heal and bodies repair, many people's tolerance increase.

I'll try to answer questions if you have them, but please bear with

me for the next couple of weeks as the Venofer is tough for me.

[Guest guest]

What is cortef? I should know this by now.

[Guest guest]

Oh, my, ,

Here you are in a different universe!

I don't know if you've heard my reasons for wondering about some of the

" glutamine/glutamate " worries, wondering if the people proposing these

theories are pinning these adverse reactions on the wrong mechanism. Did

you know that the kidney hastens the reabsorption of most amino acids by

attaching glutamate to them forming a gamma-glutamyl-amino acid? Did you

know you can't use folic acid unless it has had a string of glutamates

added to it? Look up " polyglutamation " .

Have you ever seen my pdf graph of the relative proportions that the amino

acids are in blood, urine and csf? It is a pie chart version of the the

chart below but the brain is sitting in a bath of glutamine. Please read

what I've said below in a post I made to another list long ago and compare

that to what you've been reading. I'd love your comments.

===========================

I feel a duty to bring to your attention and to the attention of others

that glutamate being elevated in urine has nothing to do with glutamate

being elevated in the brain or at synapses (which is where the GABA to

glutamate ratio might be important). Can I help you understand why I'm

saying that?

Notice that in the first article below, when someone found that glutamate

was elevated in the urine in someone with cerebellar difficulties, that

they learned that glutamate was actually very deficient at the same time in

the cerebral spinal fluid. The raised level in urine reflected a transport

problem, which is a big part of the function of the kidney. The second

article tells you where urinary ammonia is coming from.

The amount of glutamate in urine is regulated by transporters that reabsorb

back what the body needs to retain. One article below says that 99.87% of

the endogenous glutamate that was filtered in the kidney was reabsorbed

back into the body so it didn't show up in the urine. This means that

getting that glutamate back in the body instead of leaving it in urine is

REALLY important and the greater danger may be losing the glutamate into

the urine. Considering that, why would the tiny fraction of glutamate left

behind in the urine be thought to have anything to do with what happens

with glutamate in synapses in the brain?

It is a hard thing to remember, but the brain is only 3 pounds in an adult,

and all of these amino acids have jobs to do in the rest of the body. By

weight, the rest of the body outnumbers the brain 98 to one in an

adult! Most likely most of the glutamate in your body is already part of

proteins or it is on the way to becoming part of a protein! In fact, when

some scientists looked at the proteins that cows eat, they found that

14-21% of the amino acids in the food were glutamate. In fact, it was by

far the most abundant amino acid in their food. The " excitatory " amino

acid, aspartic acid took second place in this test of relative abundance in

food protein, but still, it was at a distance from the clear winner,

glutamate. (The Amino Acid Composition of Protein Feedstuffs Before and

After Ruminal Incubation and After Subsequent PassageThrough the Intestines

of Dairy Cows1F. P. O'Mara*,2, J. J. *, and M. Rath†) Completely in

line with those ratios, in a study of fetal pig, glutamate+glutamine

comprised 14% of the amino acids in the pig, but GABA was only 0.17%.(Amino

Acid Composition of the Fetal Pig 1Guoyao Wu,2 Troy L. Ott,3 Darrell A.

Knabe and Fuller W. Bazer)

Like all of us, amino acids wear many hats. Maybe you have a special

position in your child's PTA and it might be really important part of what

you do when you are at the school. In fact, your presence at the school

might have a high correlation to doing PTA activity, but I dare say if

someone runs into you at the dentist's office, that your being there on PTA

duty is not very likely.

One thing I have majored on emphasizing in the DAN! community for all the

years I've been there (many years, for I started being involved with DAN!

in 1995) is that you HAVE to think of compartmentation [where something is

being observed and the rules at that location] when you measure anything in

blood or urine, or even CSF.

Measuring glutamate in the urine tells you mostly about the

kidney. Measuring ammonia in the urine tells you about a kidney function

designed to protect the body against acidosis. Urinary ammonia is not the

same ammonia that can be troubling to brain function.

The huge world of things that can be made out of glutamate are summarized

here: http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00251.html

Glutamine can easily be converted into glutamate. Keeping that in mind,

look at the difference in the relative proportions that glutamate is of the

total amino acids in CSF, blood plasma and urine that I've put below. Why

would glutamate be showing up in these different places in such reduced

quantity compared to its relative composition in proteins? Glutamate is

also a third of glutathione!

After you consider how easily glutamine and glutamate interconvert in the

kidney and all over the body, then look at how extremely low glutamate is

in these three compartments compared to glutamine. Do you see that almost

72% of the free amino acids in CSF is glutamine, but glutamate is only a

fourth of a percent? Nothing else is even close to glutamine. When there

are glutaminases in the brain that make glutamate easily from glutamine and

when it can be easily converted back, then why would anyone think that

urinary glutamate could represent anything relevant to GABA and glutamate

ratios or levels in the synapses of the brain?

csf urine plasma

Glutamine.......71.741%......11.100%......24.160%

Glycine.............0.703%..... 29.736%...... 8.568%

Alanine.............3.594%..... 6.991%........ 9.781%

Histidine............1.777%.... 14.727%.......3.136%

Serine...............4.449%.......7.641%.......4.709%

Taurine..............0.789%.....10.375%.......2.094%

Valine............... 2.341%......1.518%.......7.995%

Lysine...............2.486%.......2.972%.......5.732%

Threonine...........3.110%.......2.714%........3.859%

Leucine.............1.372%........0.645%........4.416%

Tyrosine............0.935%........3.052%........2.212%

Arginine............ 2.168%.......0.253%........3.081%

Proline.............. 0.000%......0.258%........ 5.242%

Asparagine........ 0.776%......2.506%........1.710%

Phenylalanine.... 0.935%......0.878%........1.967%

Isoleucine..........0.530%......0.635%.........2.157%

Ornithine...........0.716%.......0.600%........1.501%

Cystine.............0.245%.......0.719%........1.754%

Tryptophan........0.338%.......0.000%........2.283%

Methionine........0.464%.......1.121%........0.814%

Glutamic Acid...0.252%.......0.417%........1.485%

Citrulline...........0.199%.......0.268%........1.185%

Aspartic Acid....0.080%.......0.873%........0.158%

I've put some articles below to help in thinking about these

concepts. Always be sure when you are learning something that the rules

you are learning apply to the place where something is being measured and

not elsewhere! This is SO important with lab testing.

Acta Neurol Scand. 1991 Jul;84(1):70-2. Related Articles, Links

Cerebellar ataxia with glutamic aciduria.

Sawada H, Seriu N, Udaka F, Kameyama M, Sugiyama H.

Department of Neurology, Sumitomo Hospital, Osaka, Japan.

We report a case of cystinuria and glutamic aciduria, presenting with

progressive cerebellar manifestations. She had cerebellar type dysarthria

and limb ataxia. Head MRI revealed cerebellar atrophy. Urinary amino acid

analysis showed excessive excretion of glutamate and the dibasic amino

acids (cystine, arginine, lysine, and ornithine). Cystine and glutamic acid

are thought to be transported in a common membrane transport system.

Reduction of glutamic acid and cystine in the cerebrospinal fluid was

revealed. A relationship between cystinuria and cerebellar manifestation

was discussed.

Publication Types:

Case Reports

PMID: 1681667 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Klin Wochenschr. 1986 Sep 15;64(18):862-70. Related Articles, Links

Formation and excretion of NH3----NH4+. New aspects of an old problem.

Silbernagl S, Scheller D.

The proximal tubule cell is the major site of renal ammoniagenesis.

Glutamine is the major substrate. Deamidation by mitochondrial glutaminase

yields glutamate- and NH4+ (not NH3, as traditionally taught). A second

NH4+ ion is obtained by deamination of glutamate- to 2-oxo-glutarate2-.

NH4+ preferentially enters the tubule lumen primarily, but probably not

exclusively, by non-ionic diffusion of NH3. For each NH3 formed in the cell

one H+ ion is left behind. H+ and NH3 are secreted on separate routes, but

recombine in the lumen to NH4+ and reach the final urine in this form. This

process per se does not net-remove H+ from the organism. For this purpose,

the anionic products of ammoniagenesis (2-oxo-glutarate2- and others) have

to be converted into neutral compounds (CO2, glucose). This metabolism

again takes place usually in the tubule cell. For each negative charge one

HCO3- is formed which enters the peritubular blood. Luminal gamma-glutamyl

transferase-mediated ammoniagenesis contributes to NH4+ accumulation in the

proximal tubule to a small extent. The endproximal NH4+ delivery exceeds

the filtered load by a factor of 9. Only 1/3 of it reaches the distal

convoluted tubule mainly because NH+4 as such is reabsorbed from the thick

ascending limb of Henle's loop by secondary active transport or

electrodiffusion. Both processes are energized by the active Na+ transport

in this segment. Thereby NH3----NH4+ is accumulated in the medullary

interstitium, which establishes the chemical gradient for non-ionic

diffusion of NH3 into the lumen of the collecting ducts. This is favoured

by the acidic disequilibrium pH in the lumen of this segment.(ABSTRACT

TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

PMID: 2430135 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Pflugers Arch. 1983 Mar 1;396(3):218-24. Related Articles, Links

Kinetics and localization of tubular resorption of " acidic " amino acids. A

microperfusion and free flow micropuncture study in rat kidney.

Silbernagl S.

The unidirectional resorption rates of L-glutamate (initial concentrations

of 0.07, 0.66, 2.0 or 20.0 mmol X 1(-1)), D-glutamate (0.66 mmol X 1(-1) in

the presence or absence of 20 mmol X 1(-1) L-glutamate), and of L-aspartate

(0.073, 0.3, 0.66, 2.0 or 5.0 mmol X 1(-1)) were determined in the rat

proximal convolution. L-Glutamate resorption was saturable. A permeability

coefficient (P) of less than or equal to 20 microns2 X S-1, and a maximum

resorption rate (Jmax) of 0.15 +/- 0.015 (SEM) nmol X S-1 X m-1 at a Km of

0.17 +/- 0.025 (SEM) mmol X 1(-1) was obtained for L-glutamate. For

L-aspartate, Jmax was 0.13 +/- 0.005 at a Km of 0.1 +/- 0.013. A free flow

glutamate concentration profile along the proximal convolution was (I)

predicted from these constants and (II) actually measured by means of free

flow micropuncture. The data agree very well and show that more than 90% of

the filtered load is resorbed within the first third of the proximal

convolution. The late proximal and early distal free flow recoveries of

L-glutamate amounted to 5.3 +/- 1.7% (SEM) and 6.6 +/- 1.4% of the filtered

load, respectively. In contrast to this, unidirectional resorption during

the microperfusion of the same tubule section was high: fractional

resorption amounted to ca. 96% at 2 mmol X 1(-1) initial L-glutamate. It

fell to 35 or 33% respectively if the initial L-glutamate concentration was

20 mmol X 1(-1) or if the resorption of 0.66 mmol X 1(-1) D-glutamate in

presence of 20 mmol X 1(-1) L-glutamate was measured. The fractional

excretion of endogenous L-glutamate in the final urine amounted to 0.13 +/-

0.012% of the filtered load. It is concluded that L-glutamate and

L-aspartate are quickly resorbed in early parts of the proximal convolution

(low Km). Saturation already occurs when there is a small increase in the

filtered load (low Jmax). The nephron section between the late proximal and

early distal nephron sites also reabsorbs " acidic " amino acids. Normally,

however, the back leak cancels this out, and net flux becomes zero. Deep

nephrons seem to handle amino acids somewhat differently than superficial

nephrons do.

Publication Types:

Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't

PMID: 6133264 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

J Am Soc Nephrol. 1992 Jan;2(7):1171-7. Related Articles, Links

Growth hormone and renal glutamine and glutamate handling.

Welbourne TC, Horton K, Cronin MJ.

Department of Physiology, Louisiana State University Medical Center,

Shreveport 33932.

Growth hormone administration effects a positive nitrogen balance in part

by recycling glutamine nitrogen as glutamate at the expense of ureagenesis.

The study presented here focuses on the response of the isolated perfused

hypophysectomized rat kidney to acute growth hormone administration during

infusions of either glutamine or glutamate. Growth hormone at 50 nM acutely

decreases the renal utilization of both glutamine and glutamate while

enhancing reabsorption of the latter. During glutamine infusions of either

1,000 or 500 nmol/min, growth hormone markedly reduced net glutamine

utilization by 55% at the high loads and reversed utilization to release at

the lower load; associated with decreased glutamine utilization was reduced

ammonium production and increased glutamate release. Although glutamine

reabsorption was unchanged, glutamate reabsorption increased and NH4+

excretion decreased. During glutamate infusion of 180 nmol/min, growth

hormone reduced glutamate utilization 66%, the residual utilization

matching increased glutamate reabsorption was associated with enhanced

bicarbonate reabsorption and a redistribution of NH4+ release into the

urine; all three responses were eliminated by amiloride. These responses to

growth hormone are consonant with reduced glutamate oxidation underlying

decreased glutamine utilization and accelerated luminal Na+-H+ exchange

mediating luminal transport, events that are conceivably interrelated.

Publication Types:

Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't

PMID: 1350468 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

At 09:36 PM 2/19/2008, you wrote:

> mentioned food being a sleep factor, and it absolutely is for

>my family.

>

>I am worn out from my Venofer treatments, so forgive me if this is

>short and (hopefully) to the point. MSG is a HUGE contributor to

>sleep issues. Glutamate/glutamine in its natural/free form seems to

>act in the same way as MSG in susceptible people.

>

>Here are some websites I highly recommend:

>

>www.msgmyth.org - Her book is very worth the money

>

>www.dogtorj.com - This guy is actually a vet - Val should love this

>site!

>

>Another related problem could be amines.

>www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.com is a good place to start. Another

>good one is www.fedupwithfoodadditives.com.

>

>Just because you eat " all-natural " and organic does not mean you are

>avoiding all forms of neuroactive compounds.

>

>That cheese you are eating to balance blood sugar could be why you're

>not sleeping. It would keep me up. It is very high in free

>glutamate.

>

>I know a lot of folks here are watching their diets, and this seems

>to another layer to the gluten free and everything-else-free, but I

>was able to get off heavy-duty sleep drugs by watching glutamine and

>other amines....and beginning Cortef.

>

>As guts heal and bodies repair, many people's tolerance increase.

>

>I'll try to answer questions if you have them, but please bear with

>me for the next couple of weeks as the Venofer is tough for me.

>

>

--

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.5 - Release Date: 2/14/2008 12:00 AM

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Just read your post on glutamates and amines with great interest! I also

discovered that these could be a problem when I went full tilt on the weston

price diet, making all sorts of bone broths and sprouted grains/beans. I soon

broke out in a horrible case of hives and these cleared up once I discovered the

glutamate and amine problem. I had forgotten about the cheese link and this

could be why I didn't sleep last night--cheese before bed.

Thanks for the links. There's also a dedicated yahoo group called Failsafe

that explores these and other issues.

What other foods do you avoid?

Dahlia

" brianangela2001 " brianangela2001 writes:

>>Glutamate/glutamine in its natural/free form seems to

act in the same way as MSG in susceptible people....

I know a lot of folks here are watching their diets, and this seems

to another layer to the gluten free and everything-else- free, but I

was able to get off heavy-duty sleep drugs by watching glutamine and

other amines....Here are some websites I highly recommend:

www.msgmyth. org - Her book is very worth the money

www.dogtorj. com - This guy is actually a vet - Val should love this

site!

Another related problem could be amines.

www.plantpoisonsand rottenstuff. com is a good place to start. Another

good one is www.fedupwithfoodad ditives.com.

Just because you eat " all-natural " and organic does not mean you are

avoiding all forms of neuroactive compounds.

>>

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

>

> Here you are in a different universe!

>

>Hi, ,

Yep, here I am...I recognized you from your first post, but haven't

had a chance to contact you.

I have seen your comments on the glutamate/glutamine issue. I do

agree with you that glutamine is necessary for life and it is

ubiquitous. However, I don't think everyone's tolerance is the same.

I know for a certainty what happens when my family consumes MSG or

high amounts of free glutamine. These reactions are not subjective

or inconsistent. For us, migraines and sleepless nights are the

rule. It happens to my girls whether they are with me or spending a

week with their grandparents and, unbeknownst to everyone, cosnume a

small amount of say, soy sauce hard cheese (other dairy is fine).

Granny will call the next day and say K didn't sleep a wink. What

could have caused it....we go over the menu, and there it is.

I feel very strongly that gut health influences one's tolerances to

the glutamate/glutamine/amines. Dr. Natasha Mc-Bride has

talked about this. Also, there is a tie-in between oxalates and

glutamate. My family also has a MAO genetic abnormality that makes

us more sensitive to amines in general. (Yes, I realize there is a

difference between glutamine and other amines). I have also seen

studies that show people with low iron have a lower tolerance for

amines.

Some people, including some on the spectrum, do better on a lower

protein diet. The amines may be part of that, as well as the

hydroxyproline and oxalates issue.

Our diet is limited in so many different ways, and I have hope that

it will expand. We are still low-oxalate on top of everything else.

Within the last six months, we have found the endocrine problems to

be a big contributor to the health issues. We are really focusing on

correcting those and the gut problems.

I hope your daughter is doing well. The folks on this list are

fabulous, and are a great source of information!

[Guest guest]

brianangela2001 wrote:

> Very interesting! We had the same problem with Weston A. Price

> diet. I started soaking grains, making broth, and fermenting

> everything in sight to try and heal. We went the opposite direction.

>

> We are low sulfur, low amine, gluten free, low oxalate, medium

> salicylate, soy free, all additive free, corn free except an

> occasional serving of fresh corn.

>

So what the heck does that leave you to eat?

sol

[Guest guest]

> So what the heck does that leave you to eat?

> sol

We are basically on a high fat, low carb, moderate protein diet.

Unprocessed meat is fine, we just don't keep leftovers in the fridge

more than 24 hours as it increases amines. I put things in the

freezer, though. We are able to use most of the Shelton's turkey and

chicken products, including hot dogs, bologna, and sausage. We also

get some sausage from a local farmer. Chicken is fine as long as we

don't eat the skin.

Veggies - we can eat a good variety - fresh tomatoes (not canned or

cooked), green beans, red potatoes occasionally, cooked carrots, all

kinds of lettuce, black-eyed peas, snow peas, zucchini, squash,

turnips, garbanzos occasionally, red peppers, very small amounts of

cabbage, onion, and garlic. Broccoli and Cauliflower are no-no's.

Leeks are fine. Winter squash and pumpkins are great. Fresh corn

occasionally. I know I'm forgetting some here...

Fruit - pears, mango, cranberries, cherries, strawberries, small

amounts banana and certain types of apples

Grains/flours - rice of all kinds, tapioca in moderation, arrowroot,

chestnut flour, small amounts of coconut flour. Haven't had success

with grains in general. We have major gut dysbiosis, and I think that

this a mjor part of the problem. Every once in a while, we can do corn

chips or tortillas.

Nuts/Seeds - pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds, chestnuts

Fats - Butter, Olive oil, safflower, sunflower

Dairy - whole raw milk for me, everyone can have kefir and homemade

yogurt

Sweeteners - honey. Kept to a minimum: rapadura sugar, maple syrup

Spices, seasonings - most individual spices are okay, some we have to

use less of, like the high salicylate herbs (hot peppers)

So, you'll notice that there is variety and yes, there are some sulfur

foods. A serving of cabbage for us is a couple of tablespoons (like in

a soup), not a whole cup. We also get plenty of glutamine in our

meats. We mix in fresh organic tomatoes at the end of cooking a soup,

instead of simmering it, which reduces the amount of FREE glutamine.

It's all in the preparation and striving for as much variety as we can

tolerate. We avoid most processed foods, but do eat rice noodles, and

rice crackers, some canned beans, and a few other items.

Tonight we are having oven-roasted chicken, black-eyed peas, and green

beans. For dessert we'll have rice pudding. Breakfast will be

chestnut pancakes and sausage. I don't feel like we are being

deprived. It does take planning, but being able to sleep and not

having migraines is worth it.

>

[Guest guest]

>>Very interesting! We had the same problem with Weston A. Price

diet. I started soaking grains, making broth, and fermenting

everything in sight to try and heal. We went the opposite direction.>>

Me, too! I don't even eat sauerkraut anymore!

<We are low sulfur, low amine, gluten free, low oxalate, medium

salicylate, soy free, all additive free, corn free except an

occasional serving of fresh corn.<

>I still try to follow the basic principle of WAPF - soaking my rice,

etc. We eat some broth, but only simmered for four hours instead of

24. We also do raw dairy. The girls can only tolerate cream,

butter, and kefir, but I can drink it by the glass.>

I've given up all grains, but I do eat raw butter and make goat milk kefir. I

keep wanting to try raw cow's milk, but there's still a fear factor there for

me. I also make the occasional bone broth but like you, cook for several hours

only. I used to tend my pots in the middle of the night, lol, in order to

simmer for 24-48 hours!

<Do you mean the Failsafe NT list? I am on that one.<

Yes, that's the list I meant...I was on it for a while and the folks on that

list were able to help me figure out what was bugging me and causing my hives.

<I am glad to have contact with someone who understands where I'm

coming from!<<>

Me too!

Dahlia

---------------------------------

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