Re: Update/calling all chelation experts

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I can only comment on the issues that your daughter is raising with

you. (mum to mum comment).

Both of my NT kids (now aged 13, girl and 9, boy) have gone through

the stages of conceptualising dying (something they do have to

learn) - that it is final/the fear of being away from parents

forever, AND the issue of friends, this issue goes up and down

until they are adults I figure.

Best thing here is reassurance, on the death issue, I make it clear

that I will be with them until I am really old....., and tell them

they can live with me for as long as they want to - that is what

they want to hear!!!!. Seemed to work a treat for them, extra

cuddles during these discussions.

Believe me, by the time R is a teenager, she will threaten to move

out at least once a month...

The friends issue comes and goes as quick as they are in telling you

about it. One day the world is ending, the next afternoon all is

hunky dory!!. Girls seem to have this issue very strongly from

age 6 - 12, can be extremely catty in their nature, then teenage

groups set in moreso, and the issue is in finding the " group " that

suits them. By that stage, they are into their own individual

identity development, and it's all about hair and clothes.

I use epsom baths to supplement magnesium especially during rounds,

(just make sure it is BP grade, and not out of China).

Good luck

na

>

> Group,

>

> Recently I posted about our little one, 6.5, chelated for 2.5

years on low/frequent Andy's dosing, who developed this odd

movement/tic.

>

> We did discover through her having a night time accident that we

were dealing with some ineffective magnesium. She never has had a

night time accident since being potty trained at 2 years " except " if

her magnesium is low. I was surprised as we were giving her plenty

but switching to new magnesium cut this odd movement/tic nearly down

to nothing so I can only assume we were chelating with a low amount

of magnesium.

>

> It will still occur when she is super excited and is much finer

now, not surprising given she is now getting some magnesium, among

other things like more clo and E and zinc. But, because it is still

occuring I have to consider that this is some kind of motor neuron

problem caused by chelation and is therefore, redistribution. I'm

at a loss to figure out how this could have happened as we have been

very careful to only dose according to Andy's protocol. I do know

that motor neuron problems are sometimes encountered by people on

Dmsa, particularly if the protocol is not followed. I'm also certain

that Ala could cause motor neuron problems.

>

> Again, she has no dx, is relatively happy, (although we have

noticed some increased anxiety, mostly at night before bed time

about things like her parents or me dying or is she going to know

any kids in her class the upcoming year, etc.) appears otherwise

healthy, eats and sleeps well, plays well with other kids, attends

social situations and has good cognitive processess. To this end, I

offer that she does attempt to hide this movement from others and

believe me, as a psychologist I know that any 6 year old who knows

that this movement is not a good thing to do in front of others.....

is pretty savvy. An autistic child would never understand this, a

lot of NT 6 year olds would not get this. I don't want to make her

more self conscious about this than she already is.

>

> In Andy's book he mentions that the only cure for bad chelation is

proper chelation. In attempting to figure out what to do about this

we are considering giving her oral dmps at very, very low doses on a

4-6 hour protocol as suggested in Amalgam Illness. I need to ask the

other, more experienced people on this if this seems like a wise

course of action. Honestly, I'm afraid to use dmsa/ala anymore until

we figure out just exactly what happened.

>

> Truthfully, we are afraid to give her anything but are concerned

that if this is fresh redistribution it could cause more damage if

we leave it alone then if we try some low dose dmps. Also, Andy

mentions in his book that if someone has a fast Phase I it could

make certain classes of drugs more toxic. She is not chemically

sensitive indicating a fast Phase I and slow II, but her anxiety

makes me wonder if she is not fast Phase I. She is on Armour, 1

grain, her pulse appears normal and she also takes Diflucan for

yeast, with no apparent problems. We have also recently given her

some Robitussin for a cough she had, again no problem with that.

Anyone know what class of drugs Andy is referring to with relation

to fast Phase I?

>

> Anyway, I wanted to get some other opinions about our possible tx

idea and see if anyone could offer an explanation of what we are

seeing here. I posted here from the beginning as the A-M list is at

present, mostly comprised of new people and some old people who

think most things are due to yeast problems. I see little likelihood

of being offered any reliable help there and need the assistance of

people who have more experience.

>

> I appreciate your attention,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think that your idea, about using low dose DMPS, is an excellent

one. I have nothing but good things to say about DMPS. When I was

experimenting with DMSA and DMPS I found that I had equal side effects

at equal doses of each, so I would say that a dose lower than whatever

dose of DMSA you were using would be ok. I found that I always feel

better while taking DMPS and that I feel even better with 6 h doses

than with 8 h doses.

I chelated with DMPS for about a year and a half before adding ALA and

I was amazed that so far I have had no side effects associated with

the ALA at all, except maybe fatigue, but fatigue was huge for me way

before I ever had any ALA, so I can't say for sure it is related.

Recently, when I was having difficult waking twice at night for 3 h

ALA doses, I switched my DMPS routine to 7 AM, 1 PM, 6 PM, and 11 PM.

I switched the ALA doses to 3 AM, 7 AM, 10 AM, 1 PM, 4:30 PM, 8 PM,

and 11 PM. This routine seems to be working very well for me (if that

helps at all).

If she was magnesium depleted I think it will take some time to boost

the levels up again. And chelation seems to use up Mg, so it will be

important to keep giving frequent Mg doses. I was taking Mg with

every DMPS dose, recently decided to switch that to Mg with every ALA

dose, and I'm using MgSO4 cream and epsom salt baths and I'm still

wondering if I'm getting enough Mg or if my body is retaining any of

it. I wish I could get the tests here that would tell me if Mg is

getting into my cells (I heard that there is a test available using

cheek epithelial cells - any idea if that test is any good or how to

get it?).

At the low doses that we use in Andy's protocol I wouldn't worry about

the toxicity of DMPS (if that is what you are getting at about which

drugs are made more toxic by fast phase I).

At some point I expect that you would want to add ALA again at a lower

dose and possibly more frequently. I think Andy mentioned something

about that in one of his posts (I would have to go back and look).

I have lived with the mercury and the strange symptoms long enough to

know that sometimes these things will just heal on there own. There

were times in the past when I lost all sensation in my legs, when I

couldn't walk, when I was numb from the breasts down, when I had

electric shocks running down my arms or legs, pains radiating around

my abdomen, and these things all passed even before I started removing

amalgam and chelating.

J

>

> Group,

>

> Recently I posted about our little one, 6.5, chelated for 2.5 years

on low/frequent Andy's dosing, who developed this odd movement/tic.

>

> We did discover through her having a night time accident that we

were dealing with some ineffective magnesium. She never has had a

night time accident since being potty trained at 2 years " except " if

her magnesium is low. I was surprised as we were giving her plenty but

switching to new magnesium cut this odd movement/tic nearly down to

nothing so I can only assume we were chelating with a low amount of

magnesium.

>

> It will still occur when she is super excited and is much finer now,

not surprising given she is now getting some magnesium, among other

things like more clo and E and zinc. But, because it is still occuring

I have to consider that this is some kind of motor neuron problem

caused by chelation and is therefore, redistribution. I'm at a loss

to figure out how this could have happened as we have been very

careful to only dose according to Andy's protocol. I do know that

motor neuron problems are sometimes encountered by people on Dmsa,

particularly if the protocol is not followed. I'm also certain that

Ala could cause motor neuron problems.

>

> Again, she has no dx, is relatively happy, (although we have noticed

some increased anxiety, mostly at night before bed time about things

like her parents or me dying or is she going to know any kids in her

class the upcoming year, etc.) appears otherwise healthy, eats and

sleeps well, plays well with other kids, attends social situations and

has good cognitive processess. To this end, I offer that she does

attempt to hide this movement from others and believe me, as a

psychologist I know that any 6 year old who knows that this movement

is not a good thing to do in front of others..... is pretty savvy. An

autistic child would never understand this, a lot of NT 6 year olds

would not get this. I don't want to make her more self conscious about

this than she already is.

>

> In Andy's book he mentions that the only cure for bad chelation is

proper chelation. In attempting to figure out what to do about this we

are considering giving her oral dmps at very, very low doses on a 4-6

hour protocol as suggested in Amalgam Illness. I need to ask the

other, more experienced people on this if this seems like a wise

course of action. Honestly, I'm afraid to use dmsa/ala anymore until

we figure out just exactly what happened.

>

> Truthfully, we are afraid to give her anything but are concerned

that if this is fresh redistribution it could cause more damage if we

leave it alone then if we try some low dose dmps. Also, Andy mentions

in his book that if someone has a fast Phase I it could make certain

classes of drugs more toxic. She is not chemically sensitive

indicating a fast Phase I and slow II, but her anxiety makes me wonder

if she is not fast Phase I. She is on Armour, 1 grain, her pulse

appears normal and she also takes Diflucan for yeast, with no apparent

problems. We have also recently given her some Robitussin for a cough

she had, again no problem with that. Anyone know what class of drugs

Andy is referring to with relation to fast Phase I?

>

> Anyway, I wanted to get some other opinions about our possible tx

idea and see if anyone could offer an explanation of what we are

seeing here. I posted here from the beginning as the A-M list is at

present, mostly comprised of new people and some old people who think

most things are due to yeast problems. I see little likelihood of

being offered any reliable help there and need the assistance of

people who have more experience.

>

> I appreciate your attention,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Group,

>

> Recently I posted about our little one, 6.5, chelated for 2.5 years

on low/frequent Andy's dosing, who developed this odd movement/tic.

>

> We did discover through her having a night time accident that we

were dealing with some ineffective magnesium. She never has had a

night time accident since being potty trained at 2 years " except " if

her magnesium is low. I was surprised as we were giving her plenty but

switching to new magnesium cut this odd movement/tic nearly down to

nothing so I can only assume we were chelating with a low amount of

magnesium.

Do you think the old mag product could have caused the problem?

Or do you think she just needed more magnesium and the new product

is more easily absorbed or utilized? (Are you using the same dose?)

Taurine helps to retain magnesium, so it might offer some extra

support for her magnesium level.

> It will still occur when she is super excited and is much finer now,

not surprising given she is now getting some magnesium, among other

things like more clo and E and zinc. But, because it is still occuring

I have to consider that this is some kind of motor neuron problem

caused by chelation and is therefore, redistribution. I'm at a loss

to figure out how this could have happened as we have been very

careful to only dose according to Andy's protocol. I do know that

motor neuron problems are sometimes encountered by people on Dmsa,

particularly if the protocol is not followed. I'm also certain that

Ala could cause motor neuron problems.

I am not sure what motor neuron problems can look like, so not

sure if that is what you are seeing.

In any case, redistribution is a possibility.

New exposure is also possible, since mercury (and other toxins) are

" out there " all the time.

Mercury, antimony, arsenic, and maybe others can alter magnesium

handling in the body. If she has more of these floating around, she

might have a greater need for magnesium, which you have corrected by

better addressing the need.

Or maybe she is just using up more mag due to whatever healing is

going on right now.

> Again, she has no dx, is relatively happy, (although we have noticed

some increased anxiety, mostly at night before bed time about things

like her parents or me dying or is she going to know any kids in her

class the upcoming year, etc.) appears otherwise healthy, eats and

sleeps well, plays well with other kids, attends social situations and

has good cognitive processess. To this end, I offer that she does

attempt to hide this movement from others and believe me, as a

psychologist I know that any 6 year old who knows that this movement

is not a good thing to do in front of others..... is pretty savvy. An

autistic child would never understand this, a lot of NT 6 year olds

would not get this. I don't want to make her more self conscious about

this than she already is.

> In Andy's book he mentions that the only cure for bad chelation is

proper chelation. In attempting to figure out what to do about this we

are considering giving her oral dmps at very, very low doses on a 4-6

hour protocol as suggested in Amalgam Illness. I need to ask the

other, more experienced people on this if this seems like a wise

course of action. Honestly, I'm afraid to use dmsa/ala anymore until

we figure out just exactly what happened.

If the problem is from redistribution or new exposure, proper

chelation should help. Using DMPS every 4-6 hours also addresses

the possible need for more frequent dosing. Of course, DMPS does

not cross the blood brain barrier and you would need ALA for that,

but you could start with DMPS. Seems reasonable to me.

You could also try boosting the mag up even higher and see if that

is all you need. Maybe she has a greater need for mag right now.

> Truthfully, we are afraid to give her anything but are concerned

that if this is fresh redistribution it could cause more damage if we

leave it alone then if we try some low dose dmps. Also, Andy mentions

in his book that if someone has a fast Phase I it could make certain

classes of drugs more toxic. She is not chemically sensitive

indicating a fast Phase I and slow II, but her anxiety makes me wonder

if she is not fast Phase I. She is on Armour, 1 grain, her pulse

appears normal and she also takes Diflucan for yeast, with no apparent

problems. We have also recently given her some Robitussin for a cough

she had, again no problem with that. Anyone know what class of drugs

Andy is referring to with relation to fast Phase I?

Figure 11 on p. 41 of Amalgam Illness shows the drugs metabolized

by the various phase 1 pathways. Andy has said problems with SSRIs

can be an indicator of chemical sensitivity.

How long has she been using Diflucan? I know Andy says it is not

good for long term use as it can cause liver problems. Don't know

the details on this.

Also, Diflucan (fluconazole) inhibits a couple of phase 1 pathways.

I am not sure how that could cause the problem you've seen, though.

--

> Anyway, I wanted to get some other opinions about our possible tx

idea and see if anyone could offer an explanation of what we are

seeing here. I posted here from the beginning as the A-M list is at

present, mostly comprised of new people and some old people who think

most things are due to yeast problems. I see little likelihood of

being offered any reliable help there and need the assistance of

people who have more experience.

> I appreciate your attention,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> If she was magnesium depleted I think it will take some time to boost

> the levels up again. And chelation seems to use up Mg, so it will be

> important to keep giving frequent Mg doses. I was taking Mg with

> every DMPS dose, recently decided to switch that to Mg with every ALA

> dose, and I'm using MgSO4 cream and epsom salt baths and I'm still

> wondering if I'm getting enough Mg or if my body is retaining any of

> it. I wish I could get the tests here that would tell me if Mg is

> getting into my cells (I heard that there is a test available using

> cheek epithelial cells - any idea if that test is any good or how to

> get it?).

Taurine makes magnesium more usable. Have you tried that?

Metagenics makes two good liver phase modulators - advaclear and UltraClear

Plus.

You might want to try them. At least the AdvaClear has some taurine in.

Good Luck.

Dean

[Guest guest]

TK--- Low dose DMPS 6hr

>

> Group,

>

> Recently I posted about our little one, 6.5, chelated for 2.5 years

on low/frequent Andy's dosing, who developed this odd movement/tic.

>

> We did discover through her having a night time accident that we

were dealing with some ineffective magnesium. She never has had a

night time accident since being potty trained at 2 years " except " if

her magnesium is low. I was surprised as we were giving her plenty

but switching to new magnesium cut this odd movement/tic nearly down

to nothing so I can only assume we were chelating with a low amount

of magnesium.

>

> It will still occur when she is super excited and is much finer

now, not surprising given she is now getting some magnesium, among

other things like more clo and E and zinc. But, because it is still

occuring I have to consider that this is some kind of motor neuron

problem caused by chelation and is therefore, redistribution. I'm at

a loss to figure out how this could have happened as we have been

very careful to only dose according to Andy's protocol. I do know

that motor neuron problems are sometimes encountered by people on

Dmsa, particularly if the protocol is not followed. I'm also certain

that Ala could cause motor neuron problems.

>

> Again, she has no dx, is relatively happy, (although we have

noticed some increased anxiety, mostly at night before bed time about

things like her parents or me dying or is she going to know any kids

in her class the upcoming year, etc.) appears otherwise healthy,

eats and sleeps well, plays well with other kids, attends social

situations and has good cognitive processess. To this end, I offer

that she does attempt to hide this movement from others and believe

me, as a psychologist I know that any 6 year old who knows that this

movement is not a good thing to do in front of others..... is pretty

savvy. An autistic child would never understand this, a lot of NT 6

year olds would not get this. I don't want to make her more self

conscious about this than she already is.

>

> In Andy's book he mentions that the only cure for bad chelation is

proper chelation. In attempting to figure out what to do about this

we are considering giving her oral dmps at very, very low doses on a

4-6 hour protocol as suggested in Amalgam Illness. I need to ask the

other, more experienced people on this if this seems like a wise

course of action. Honestly, I'm afraid to use dmsa/ala anymore until

we figure out just exactly what happened.

>

> Truthfully, we are afraid to give her anything but are concerned

that if this is fresh redistribution it could cause more damage if we

leave it alone then if we try some low dose dmps. Also, Andy mentions

in his book that if someone has a fast Phase I it could make certain

classes of drugs more toxic. She is not chemically sensitive

indicating a fast Phase I and slow II, but her anxiety makes me

wonder if she is not fast Phase I. She is on Armour, 1 grain, her

pulse appears normal and she also takes Diflucan for yeast, with no

apparent problems. We have also recently given her some Robitussin

for a cough she had, again no problem with that. Anyone know what

class of drugs Andy is referring to with relation to fast Phase I?

>

> Anyway, I wanted to get some other opinions about our possible tx

idea and see if anyone could offer an explanation of what we are

seeing here. I posted here from the beginning as the A-M list is at

present, mostly comprised of new people and some old people who think

most things are due to yeast problems. I see little likelihood of

being offered any reliable help there and need the assistance of

people who have more experience.

>

> I appreciate your attention,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well I aint no expert, I'm currently in the gut bug world (parasites

more than yeast seem to be affecting my chemical sensitivity), but can

relate what my naturopath friend has told me that may be of some help.

His reference is " Murray and Pizzorno " but I can't vouch for it, only

repeat what he's told me.

He says that there aren't any drugs except alcohol that overly

stimulate phase one but any drug will become more toxic with an

overactive phase one but valium inhibits phase one.

Potential nervous system irritation from released mercury may be

causing anxiety.

Potential drain of minerals (especially Mg) from chelation: have a

break for rebuilding and look into " Musclease " a product by Bioceuticals.

Stimulate phase two by providing nutrients ie proteins (he suggested

" Xenoclear " but it has Silymarin, which is a phase one stimulant). I

use a mixture of protein powders for that(100% whey isolate, Rice,

Carob and spirulina).

You could email Andy and ask him directly what he thinks.

Hope that helps,

Kelle

[Guest guest]

Re: Update/calling all chelation experts

I think that your idea, about using low dose DMPS, is an excellent

one. I have nothing but good things to say about DMPS. When I was

experimenting with DMSA and DMPS I found that I had equal side effects

at equal doses of each, so I would say that a dose lower than whatever

dose of DMSA you were using would be ok. I found that I always feel

better while taking DMPS and that I feel even better with 6 h doses

than with 8 h doses.

I chelated with DMPS for about a year and a half before adding ALA and

I was amazed that so far I have had no side effects associated with

the ALA at all, except maybe fatigue, but fatigue was huge for me way

before I ever had any ALA, so I can't say for sure it is related.

Recently, when I was having difficult waking twice at night for 3 h

ALA doses, I switched my DMPS routine to 7 AM, 1 PM, 6 PM, and 11 PM.

I switched the ALA doses to 3 AM, 7 AM, 10 AM, 1 PM, 4:30 PM, 8 PM,

and 11 PM. This routine seems to be working very well for me (if that

helps at all).

If she was magnesium depleted I think it will take some time to boost

the levels up again. And chelation seems to use up Mg, so it will be

important to keep giving frequent Mg doses. I was taking Mg with

every DMPS dose, recently decided to switch that to Mg with every ALA

dose, and I'm using MgSO4 cream and epsom salt baths and I'm still

wondering if I'm getting enough Mg or if my body is retaining any of

it. I wish I could get the tests here that would tell me if Mg is

getting into my cells (I heard that there is a test available using

cheek epithelial cells - any idea if that test is any good or how to

get it?).

At the low doses that we use in Andy's protocol I wouldn't worry about

the toxicity of DMPS (if that is what you are getting at about which

drugs are made more toxic by fast phase I).

At some point I expect that you would want to add ALA again at a lower

dose and possibly more frequently. I think Andy mentioned something

about that in one of his posts (I would have to go back and look).

I have lived with the mercury and the strange symptoms long enough to

know that sometimes these things will just heal on there own. There

were times in the past when I lost all sensation in my legs, when I

couldn't walk, when I was numb from the breasts down, when I had

electric shocks running down my arms or legs, pains radiating around

my abdomen, and these things all passed even before I started removing

amalgam and chelating.

J

>

> Group,

>

> Recently I posted about our little one, 6.5, chelated for 2.5 years

on low/frequent Andy's dosing, who developed this odd movement/tic.

>

> We did discover through her having a night time accident that we

were dealing with some ineffective magnesium. She never has had a

night time accident since being potty trained at 2 years " except " if

her magnesium is low. I was surprised as we were giving her plenty but

switching to new magnesium cut this odd movement/tic nearly down to

nothing so I can only assume we were chelating with a low amount of

magnesium.

>

> It will still occur when she is super excited and is much finer now,

not surprising given she is now getting some magnesium, among other

things like more clo and E and zinc. But, because it is still occuring

I have to consider that this is some kind of motor neuron problem

caused by chelation and is therefore, redistribution. I'm at a loss

to figure out how this could have happened as we have been very

careful to only dose according to Andy's protocol. I do know that

motor neuron problems are sometimes encountered by people on Dmsa,

particularly if the protocol is not followed. I'm also certain that

Ala could cause motor neuron problems.

>

> Again, she has no dx, is relatively happy, (although we have noticed

some increased anxiety, mostly at night before bed time about things

like her parents or me dying or is she going to know any kids in her

class the upcoming year, etc.) appears otherwise healthy, eats and

sleeps well, plays well with other kids, attends social situations and

has good cognitive processess. To this end, I offer that she does

attempt to hide this movement from others and believe me, as a

psychologist I know that any 6 year old who knows that this movement

is not a good thing to do in front of others..... is pretty savvy. An

autistic child would never understand this, a lot of NT 6 year olds

would not get this. I don't want to make her more self conscious about

this than she already is.

>

> In Andy's book he mentions that the only cure for bad chelation is

proper chelation. In attempting to figure out what to do about this we

are considering giving her oral dmps at very, very low doses on a 4-6

hour protocol as suggested in Amalgam Illness. I need to ask the

other, more experienced people on this if this seems like a wise

course of action. Honestly, I'm afraid to use dmsa/ala anymore until

we figure out just exactly what happened.

>

> Truthfully, we are afraid to give her anything but are concerned

that if this is fresh redistribution it could cause more damage if we

leave it alone then if we try some low dose dmps. Also, Andy mentions

in his book that if someone has a fast Phase I it could make certain

classes of drugs more toxic. She is not chemically sensitive

indicating a fast Phase I and slow II, but her anxiety makes me wonder

if she is not fast Phase I. She is on Armour, 1 grain, her pulse

appears normal and she also takes Diflucan for yeast, with no apparent

problems. We have also recently given her some Robitussin for a cough

she had, again no problem with that. Anyone know what class of drugs

Andy is referring to with relation to fast Phase I?

>

> Anyway, I wanted to get some other opinions about our possible tx

idea and see if anyone could offer an explanation of what we are

seeing here. I posted here from the beginning as the A-M list is at

present, mostly comprised of new people and some old people who think

most things are due to yeast problems. I see little likelihood of

being offered any reliable help there and need the assistance of

people who have more experience.

>

> I appreciate your attention,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From:

I chelated with DMPS for about a year and a half before adding ALA and

I was amazed that so far I have had no side effects associated with

the ALA at all, except maybe fatigue, but fatigue was huge for me way

before I ever had any ALA, so I can't say for sure it is related.

===>Dmsa cause fatigue here. We never noticed any fatigue with just Ala.===>

Recently, when I was having difficult waking twice at night for 3 h

ALA doses, I switched my DMPS routine to 7 AM, 1 PM, 6 PM, and 11 PM.

I switched the ALA doses to 3 AM, 7 AM, 10 AM, 1 PM, 4:30 PM, 8 PM,

and 11 PM. This routine seems to be working very well for me (if that

helps at all).

====>Yes, very helpful.===>

If she was magnesium depleted I think it will take some time to boost

the levels up again. And chelation seems to use up Mg, so it will be

important to keep giving frequent Mg doses.

====>We switched out the old Magnesium last Sunday, will start the round on

Thursday. So nearly two weeks. We were giving 600 mgs but after 3 days that

caused loose stools so we cut it back to 500 mgs and that seems right.===>

At some point I expect that you would want to add ALA again at a lower

dose and possibly more frequently. I think Andy mentioned something

about that in one of his posts (I would have to go back and look).

===>Yes, we will, looking for a source of Valium (for myself) when we get to

this point.===>

I have lived with the mercury and the strange symptoms long enough to

know that sometimes these things will just heal on there own. There

were times in the past when I lost all sensation in my legs, when I

couldn't walk, when I was numb from the breasts down, when I had

electric shocks running down my arms or legs, pains radiating around

my abdomen, and these things all passed even before I started removing

amalgam and chelating.

====>Wow, this is terrible and must be horribly uncomfortable, so sorry. But

in a good way it's comforting to know that these things can happen. Thanks, as

always, , for your thoughtful response.

J

>

> Group,

>

> Recently I posted about our little one, 6.5, chelated for 2.5 years

on low/frequent Andy's dosing, who developed this odd movement/tic.

>

> We did discover through her having a night time accident that we

were dealing with some ineffective magnesium. She never has had a

night time accident since being potty trained at 2 years " except " if

her magnesium is low. I was surprised as we were giving her plenty but

switching to new magnesium cut this odd movement/tic nearly down to

nothing so I can only assume we were chelating with a low amount of

magnesium.

>

> It will still occur when she is super excited and is much finer now,

not surprising given she is now getting some magnesium, among other

things like more clo and E and zinc. But, because it is still occuring

I have to consider that this is some kind of motor neuron problem

caused by chelation and is therefore, redistribution. I'm at a loss

to figure out how this could have happened as we have been very

careful to only dose according to Andy's protocol. I do know that

motor neuron problems are sometimes encountered by people on Dmsa,

particularly if the protocol is not followed. I'm also certain that

Ala could cause motor neuron problems.

>

> Again, she has no dx, is relatively happy, (although we have noticed

some increased anxiety, mostly at night before bed time about things

like her parents or me dying or is she going to know any kids in her

class the upcoming year, etc.) appears otherwise healthy, eats and

sleeps well, plays well with other kids, attends social situations and

has good cognitive processess. To this end, I offer that she does

attempt to hide this movement from others and believe me, as a

psychologist I know that any 6 year old who knows that this movement

is not a good thing to do in front of others..... is pretty savvy. An

autistic child would never understand this, a lot of NT 6 year olds

would not get this. I don't want to make her more self conscious about

this than she already is.

>

> In Andy's book he mentions that the only cure for bad chelation is

proper chelation. In attempting to figure out what to do about this we

are considering giving her oral dmps at very, very low doses on a 4-6

hour protocol as suggested in Amalgam Illness. I need to ask the

other, more experienced people on this if this seems like a wise

course of action. Honestly, I'm afraid to use dmsa/ala anymore until

we figure out just exactly what happened.

>

> Truthfully, we are afraid to give her anything but are concerned

that if this is fresh redistribution it could cause more damage if we

leave it alone then if we try some low dose dmps. Also, Andy mentions

in his book that if someone has a fast Phase I it could make certain

classes of drugs more toxic. She is not chemically sensitive

indicating a fast Phase I and slow II, but her anxiety makes me wonder

if she is not fast Phase I. She is on Armour, 1 grain, her pulse

appears normal and she also takes Diflucan for yeast, with no apparent

problems. We have also recently given her some Robitussin for a cough

she had, again no problem with that. Anyone know what class of drugs

Andy is referring to with relation to fast Phase I?

>

> Anyway, I wanted to get some other opinions about our possible tx

idea and see if anyone could offer an explanation of what we are

seeing here. I posted here from the beginning as the A-M list is at

present, mostly comprised of new people and some old people who think

most things are due to yeast problems. I see little likelihood of

being offered any reliable help there and need the assistance of

people who have more experience.

>

> I appreciate your attention,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From:

Do you think the old mag product could have caused the problem?

===>It certainly didn't help anything. It's a miracle we didn't *cause* a

seizure. I don't *think* it is totally responsible for the problem, but did

contribute to it. I never read anything that said that low mag would cause

redistribution and I really think that is what we saw here, on round. I would

like to think this was just low mag, with continued use healing will happen and

that is the source of all the problems. She complained of her hand being numb,

on round, that seems like redistribution, to me. I'm trying not to think about

how uncomfortable she must have been.===>

Or do you think she just needed more magnesium and the new product

is more easily absorbed or utilized? (Are you using the same dose?)

===>When she had the nighttime accident she was on 500 mgs. But I know that

accidents mean she is low, so in the morning I gave her an extra 100 mgs from a

new bottle, different brand, same form, and noticed quickly that the movement

was gone. I then replaced all the old mag with the new mag and by the next day

the movement thing was gone, completely, now only comes back if she gets very,

very excited.

I can only assume that the *old (exp date of 09)* was not any good or

something. I wish I had the time to be angry about this, but I don't. It goes to

a fear I have always had about supplements that it's hard to tell if what you

get is what you think you are getting. This is a reputable company that I have

dealt with for 3 years now. I am going to send the old mag to a lab that my

mother told me about and have it tested.

I read in Adele " Muscle spasms and weakness, involuntary twitching, and

inability to control the bladder have been produced in *healthy* volunteers by a

diet deficient in magnesium. " Sure sounds like what we saw here.====>

Taurine helps to retain magnesium, so it might offer some extra

support for her magnesium level.

====>Luckily there is Taurine in her multi.===>

I am not sure what motor neuron problems can look like, so not

sure if that is what you are seeing.

====>It's my understanding that a motor neuron problem can cause physical

deterioration. Andy gives an example of a woman who was a former dancer, used

Dmsa on an inappropriate protocol and ended up in a wheel chair.====>

In any case, redistribution is a possibility.

===>Surprising to me as I have read many posts where he says that

redistribution is entirely a problem attributed to an inappropriate

protocol.====>

New exposure is also possible, since mercury (and other toxins) are

" out there " all the time.

===>Anything can happen but it seems that if new exposure were a problem more

people would have this kind of thing happen after 2+ years of chelation and I

believe this is pretty rare.====>

Mercury, antimony, arsenic, and maybe others can alter magnesium

handling in the body. If she has more of these floating around, she

might have a greater need for magnesium, which you have corrected by

better addressing the need.

===>She has never tested high for anything, save for Bismuth, and that

quicklyleft. She had no discernible excretion for mercury on her initial hair

test and that was our only clue that mercury could be a problem. The good news

is that we never saw any evidence on the hair test, or with her, of lead.===>

Or maybe she is just using up more mag due to whatever healing is

going on right now.

If the problem is from redistribution or new exposure, proper

chelation should help. Using DMPS every 4-6 hours also addresses

the possible need for more frequent dosing. Of course, DMPS does

not cross the blood brain barrier and you would need ALA for that,

but you could start with DMPS. Seems reasonable to me.

===>If this problem is not entirely due to low magnesium, then I suspect for

some reason she is using up the chelator at faster than normal time periods. So

it's either use the dmps on a 4-6 hour schedule or the dmsa/ala every 2 hours,

can you even imagine how exhausting that would be?====>

You could also try boosting the mag up even higher and see if that

is all you need. Maybe she has a greater need for mag right now.

===>The same amount of the new magnesium caused loose stools, we even had to

reduce the amount. I just think the old magnesium was ineffective or bad or

mislabeled, gosh this stuff scares me. You can see the dilemma where they talk

about putting supplements under some kind of regulation to ensure that you are

buying what you think you are buying.===>

Figure 11 on p. 41 of Amalgam Illness shows the drugs metabolized

by the various phase 1 pathways. Andy has said problems with SSRIs

can be an indicator of chemical sensitivity.

How long has she been using Diflucan? I know Andy says it is not

good for long term use as it can cause liver problems. Don't know

the details on this.

Also, Diflucan (fluconazole) inhibits a couple of phase 1 pathways.

I am not sure how that could cause the problem you've seen, though.

====>We use the Diflucan periodically to beat back the yeast, really was her

only symptom left, periodic yeast. About 99% of parents use GSE but it doesn't

do anything here except give her acid reflux. Interestingly, GSE does the same

thing as Diflucan, slows down Phase I severely.

Her liver values went down to normal the longer we used Diflucan. Consistent

yeast can cause serious health problems on it's own. But this brings up an

interesting point. When we started having this problem we were using high dose

Biotin for yeast, it was effective. But people notice that their kids get

constipated on Biotin and we were probably using up more magnesium with it's

use. We were also using Coconut Oil, which we found affected her thyroid so in

some cases it appears, to me, that using a drug is better as when you give

supplement A it's possible to cause a cascade of other problems that the drug

would not cause.

Diflucan does not use up magnesium or affect her thyroid. Her liver values are

now well within normal range and we give extra phosphatidylcholine to help her

liver. Milk Thistle will cause allergies if we use it on an ongoing basis, we

can and do use it every two weeks.

Thanks, , I was hoping you'd weigh in with your opinion.====>

>

>

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: DeanNetwork

Taurine makes magnesium more usable. Have you tried that?

====>Yes, thankfully we had Taurine on board. She has no trouble absorbing

magnesium if she is getting it, problem was I have no doubt the mag we were

using just wasn't good. When we switched her to the other brand, same dose, same

form, different brand, it caused loose stools in three days. Pretty clear the

new mag was getting in.===>

Metagenics makes two good liver phase modulators - advaclear and UltraClear

Plus.

You might want to try them.

====>Thanks for this, Dean, I will definitely look into them and maybe run

them by Andy to see which, if any, he thinks might help. I do appreciate the

suggestion.===>

At least the AdvaClear has some taurine in.

Good Luck.

Dean

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: screamingatpigeons

He says that there aren't any drugs except alcohol that overly

stimulate phase one but any drug will become more toxic with an

overactive phase one but valium inhibits phase one.

====>Pretty sure she's not drinking, but I'll ask (kidding) and valium it is,

for both of us...just kidding, again! I know that niacinamide and Diflucan both

slow down Phase I. I also just remembered that raspberries are a great source

of ellagic acid, which stimulates Phase II and it happens to be raspberry time

in Ohio. I'll just send her out to pick raspberries and she'll do what she

always does...... which is eat them and come back with an empty basket :-)=====>

Potential nervous system irritation from released mercury may be the reason

for anxiety

====>You may be right. The biggest part of her problem is that she has an

amazing capacity to understand things on a cognitive level that supercedes her

emotional capacity. Children do not understand the finality of death, not

really, until about 6 or 7 but at 4 she knew. And then she figured out that

people live until they are about 80 (I have no dea where she got this number) so

we had to count out the other day how many years there are between 52 (my age)

and 80. She seemed pretty satisfied that I had a few good years left.

We're pretty religious here so we talked about heaven and how we'll all be

together someday. I knew (but was hoping against hope) that when I was doing

this it was a mistake as she then told me 1/2 an hour later the 4 reasons her

Dad will not go to heaven, geesh, she's tough. Really good thing she's so cute.

Thanks, Kelle, I appreciate your taking the time to help us.====>

Kelle

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: screamingatpigeons

He says that there aren't any drugs except alcohol that overly

stimulate phase one but any drug will become more toxic with an

overactive phase one but valium inhibits phase one.

====>Pretty sure she's not drinking, but I'll ask (kidding) and valium it is,

for both of us...just kidding, again! I know that niacinamide and Diflucan both

slow down Phase I. I also just remembered that raspberries are a great source

of ellagic acid, which stimulates Phase II and it happens to be raspberry time

in Ohio. I'll just send her out to pick raspberries and she'll do what she

always does...... which is eat them and come back with an empty basket :-)=====>

Potential nervous system irritation from released mercury may be the reason

for anxiety

====>You may be right. The biggest part of her problem is that she has an

amazing capacity to understand things on a cognitive level that supercedes her

emotional capacity. Children do not understand the finality of death, not

really, until about 6 or 7 but at 4 she knew. And then she figured out that

people live until they are about 80 (I have no dea where she got this number) so

we had to count out the other day how many years there are between 52 (my age)

and 80. She seemed pretty satisfied that I had a few good years left.

We're pretty religious here so we talked about heaven and how we'll all be

together someday. I knew (but was hoping against hope) that when I was doing

this it was a mistake as she then told me 1/2 an hour later the 4 reasons her

Dad will not go to heaven, geesh, she's tough. Really good thing she's so cute.

Thanks, Kelle, I appreciate your taking the time to help us.====>

Kelle

[Guest guest]

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From:

>

> Do you think the old mag product could have caused the problem?

>

>

>

> ===>It certainly didn't help anything. It's a miracle we didn't

*cause* a seizure. I don't *think* it is totally responsible for the

problem, but did contribute to it. I never read anything that said

that low mag would cause redistribution and I really think that is

what we saw here, on round. I would like to think this was just low

mag, with continued use healing will happen and that is the source of

all the problems. She complained of her hand being numb, on round,

that seems like redistribution, to me. I'm trying not to think about

how uncomfortable she must have been.===>

What a good thing (well, not for her I'll bet) that she had the night

time accident so you figured out the magnesium.

> Or do you think she just needed more magnesium and the new product

> is more easily absorbed or utilized? (Are you using the same dose?)

>

> ===>When she had the nighttime accident she was on 500 mgs. But I

know that accidents mean she is low, so in the morning I gave her an

extra 100 mgs from a new bottle, different brand, same form, and

noticed quickly that the movement was gone. I then replaced all the

old mag with the new mag and by the next day the movement thing was

gone, completely, now only comes back if she gets very, very excited.

>

> I can only assume that the *old (exp date of 09)* was not any good

or something. I wish I had the time to be angry about this, but I

don't. It goes to a fear I have always had about supplements that it's

hard to tell if what you get is what you think you are getting. This

is a reputable company that I have dealt with for 3 years now. I am

going to send the old mag to a lab that my mother told me about and

have it tested.

> I read in Adele " Muscle spasms and weakness, involuntary

twitching, and inability to control the bladder have been produced in

*healthy* volunteers by a diet deficient in magnesium. " Sure sounds

like what we saw here.====>

I wonder if the old one was a type that didn't break down as well,

so was not being absorbed?

> Taurine helps to retain magnesium, so it might offer some extra

> support for her magnesium level.

>

>

>

> ====>Luckily there is Taurine in her multi.===>

>

> I am not sure what motor neuron problems can look like, so not

> sure if that is what you are seeing.

>

> ====>It's my understanding that a motor neuron problem can cause

physical deterioration. Andy gives an example of a woman who was a

former dancer, used Dmsa on an inappropriate protocol and ended up in

a wheel chair.====>

Yes, I remember that example.

> In any case, redistribution is a possibility.

>

> ===>Surprising to me as I have read many posts where he says that

redistribution is entirely a problem attributed to an inappropriate

protocol.====>

Redistribution happens in a small amount at the end of every round.

You can't avoid that. I have had problems appear at the end of a

round and then disappear only at the start of a subsequent round.

Sometimes it takes more than one round before they disappear.

> New exposure is also possible, since mercury (and other toxins) are

> " out there " all the time.

>

> ===>Anything can happen but it seems that if new exposure were a

problem more people would have this kind of thing happen after 2+

years of chelation and I believe this is pretty rare.====>

>

> Mercury, antimony, arsenic, and maybe others can alter magnesium

> handling in the body. If she has more of these floating around, she

> might have a greater need for magnesium, which you have corrected by

> better addressing the need.

>

> ===>She has never tested high for anything, save for Bismuth, and

that quicklyleft. She had no discernible excretion for mercury on her

initial hair test and that was our only clue that mercury could be a

problem. The good news is that we never saw any evidence on the hair

test, or with her, of lead.===>

> Or maybe she is just using up more mag due to whatever healing is

> going on right now.

>

> If the problem is from redistribution or new exposure, proper

> chelation should help. Using DMPS every 4-6 hours also addresses

> the possible need for more frequent dosing. Of course, DMPS does

> not cross the blood brain barrier and you would need ALA for that,

> but you could start with DMPS. Seems reasonable to me.

>

> ===>If this problem is not entirely due to low magnesium, then I

suspect for some reason she is using up the chelator at faster than

normal time periods. So it's either use the dmps on a 4-6 hour

schedule or the dmsa/ala every 2 hours, can you even imagine how

exhausting that would be?====>

Sure can. I have been taking 2 hourly doses in the daytime for

quite awhile. Recently I started doing 2 hourly doses at night.

It is a real pain.

I hope your problem is totally solved with the new magnesium.

> You could also try boosting the mag up even higher and see if that

> is all you need. Maybe she has a greater need for mag right now.

>

> ===>The same amount of the new magnesium caused loose stools, we

even had to reduce the amount. I just think the old magnesium was

ineffective or bad or mislabeled, gosh this stuff scares me. You can

see the dilemma where they talk about putting supplements under some

kind of regulation to ensure that you are buying what you think you

are buying.===>

You might consider a bit of mag sulfate cream to boost the dose

as that should not cause any loose stools.

I would be interested to know which company made the ineffective

mag product. Maybe it was just a bad batch, but hard to say.

> Figure 11 on p. 41 of Amalgam Illness shows the drugs metabolized

> by the various phase 1 pathways. Andy has said problems with SSRIs

> can be an indicator of chemical sensitivity.

>

> How long has she been using Diflucan? I know Andy says it is not

> good for long term use as it can cause liver problems. Don't know

> the details on this.

>

> Also, Diflucan (fluconazole) inhibits a couple of phase 1 pathways.

> I am not sure how that could cause the problem you've seen, though.

>

> ====>We use the Diflucan periodically to beat back the yeast,

really was her only symptom left, periodic yeast. About 99% of parents

use GSE but it doesn't do anything here except give her acid reflux.

Interestingly, GSE does the same thing as Diflucan, slows down Phase I

severely.

>

> Her liver values went down to normal the longer we used Diflucan.

Consistent yeast can cause serious health problems on it's own. But

this brings up an interesting point. When we started having this

problem we were using high dose Biotin for yeast, it was effective.

But people notice that their kids get constipated on Biotin and we

were probably using up more magnesium with it's use. We were also

using Coconut Oil, which we found affected her thyroid so in some

cases it appears, to me, that using a drug is better as when you give

supplement A it's possible to cause a cascade of other problems that

the drug would not cause.

>

> Diflucan does not use up magnesium or affect her thyroid. Her

liver values are now well within normal range and we give extra

phosphatidylcholine to help her liver. Milk Thistle will cause

allergies if we use it on an ongoing basis, we can and do use it every

two weeks.

Very interesting information. I didn't know about the biotin using

up more magnesium or leading to constipation.

Sounds like you have thought it all through and using the Diflucan

makes good sense.

> Thanks, , I was hoping you'd weigh in with your opinion.====>

You're welcome! Thank heavens for (effective) magnesium!

--

>

>

> >

> >