Really tired last few days while using HC gel in the AM

[Guest guest]

I increased my dose of Armour by 1/8 grain two nights ago (temps have

not budged even 1/10 - I think that the 4 dose schedule is definitely

an improvement for my adrenals) and " stress-dosed " by using HC gel in

the AM (assuming that I'm absorbing it better than the oral) and

before bed instead of my usual which is just using it at bed-time.

I've had some pretty serious 2-3PM dips over the past two days like I

haven't had since before I even started on Armour and HC - like the

good old days when I would be falling asleep at my desk at 2:30 or so

and get up to eat that snack of M & Ms, a bag of pretzels and a Mountain

Dew. I'm wondering whether I'm just that tired (I've slept poorly the

last two night in particular, and not well for months), or that I'm

not getting enough HC from the gel in the morning. Any ideas? I guess

that I can test it by taking the oral HC tomorrow in the AM and see if

I dip again tomorrow.

[Guest guest]

I would seriously think this is low cortisol and the gel is not working

as well for you.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

[Guest guest]

That's what I'm thinking too - maybe the gel is not as effective, or

maybe it is more bio-available as they advertise and I'm a fast

metabolizer of HC whether I swallow it or rub it on and the cream

slows that absorption down a bit. I'll try the cream instead of the

gel tnite and tomorrow.

Cheri, my two early doses are 12.5mg (10.6mg of gel on my little

scale) at 7:30AM-8AM and 10mg at 11:30AM. I take 7.5mg at 3:30. 5mg

at 6:30 - 7PM and 5mg (4.25mg) of the gel before bed.

>

> I would seriously think this is low cortisol and the gel is not working

> as well for you.

[Guest guest]

Are your temps stable? You are on the same doses as me in the morning and

men need more. I think I would try 15 for your AM dose if possible.

Especially since you are more active than me. I am pretty sure I will have

to increase mine as I increase my activity level based on days I have been

more active.

Cheri

-----Original Message-----

That's what I'm thinking too - maybe the gel is not as effective, or

maybe it is more bio-available as they advertise and I'm a fast

metabolizer of HC whether I swallow it or rub it on and the cream

slows that absorption down a bit. I'll try the cream instead of the

gel tnite and tomorrow.

Cheri, my two early doses are 12.5mg (10.6mg of gel on my little

scale) at 7:30AM-8AM and 10mg at 11:30AM. I take 7.5mg at 3:30. 5mg

at 6:30 - 7PM and 5mg (4.25mg) of the gel before bed.

.

[Guest guest]

Yep, I've been rubbing it in anywhere I can see blood vessels. I even tried

my neck to see if that would work better. Who knows. Whenever I've had to

take prednisone in the past, my body really likes it. I don't get all moody

or anything. I just felt great. Now whenever I had to wean down that was

another story. The odd thing to me is how many people have digestive

problems taking HC, but I don't. In fact, my stomach has been very not happy

with the cream as opposed to the pills. I wonder if it has a topical effect

on my guts as I'm digesting it that is helpful to me with Chrons disease.

Cherie

Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you

learn.--C.S.

> When you do the cream, do you apply it in places where it gets into the

> vessels quickly, like inside of elbows and back of knees? That absorbs

> better than rubbing it on fatty areas or arms and legs.

>

> I think with me I absorb it so well because I have such thin and damaged

> skin. It literally just sucks it up. At least with the Cortaid 12

> hour which

> is what I am using now. My cheap brand didn't absorb nearly as well. Had

> kind of a greasy feeling too. Took a lot longer to get into the skin.

>

> You probably are absorbing some of the tablet through blood vessels when

> swallowing all the way down until it gets to the main part, the liver. My

> liver didn't seem to like Isocort so I know it couldn't handle

> Cortef, but I

> needed something stronger. The only thing I don't like about the

> cream is it

> isn't as quick as popping a pill, but oh well.

>

> I went out to dinner tonight for the first time in a long time, had

> something spicy and have had no bad reactions to the food which

> is amazing.

> I hope that progress continues.

>

> Cheri

>

> -----Original Message-----

> Does that make any sense?

>

> Cherie

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>> Maybe I should

just get it over with and go to 45mg. With temps holding well and BPs

rising when I stand I have been reluctant - not to mention fearing

shutting down my adrenals for good.<<

With temps holding well and BP rising I would NOT go higher. As you adjust the

thyroid UP some other symtooms may self correct. It is not ALL cortiosl that

does this but it works in synergy wiht the other hormones which yo need to

slowly adjuts up as you cna tolerate and raising more cortils wehne the markers

for cortils are good is foolhardy !

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

[Guest guest]

>>So maybe I need to ramp up my oral HC

a bit more to get my temps stable. Does that make any sense?<<

Perfect sense.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

[Guest guest]

That is why I have not done so, so far. As I said in my last post,

objective indicators point to me being on enough so I have been

holding steady at 40mg. I have lots of low cortisol symptoms, but

maybe they're also low thyroid symptoms.

>

> >> Maybe I should

> just get it over with and go to 45mg. With temps holding well and BPs

> rising when I stand I have been reluctant - not to mention fearing

> shutting down my adrenals for good.<<

>

> With temps holding well and BP rising I would NOT go higher. As you

adjust the thyroid UP some other symtooms may self correct. It is not

ALL cortiosl that does this but it works in synergy wiht the other

hormones which yo need to slowly adjuts up as you cna tolerate and

raising more cortils wehne the markers for cortils are good is foolhardy !

>

[Guest guest]

That is why I have not done so, so far. As I said in my last post,

objective indicators point to me being on enough so I have been

holding steady at 40mg. I have lots of low cortisol symptoms, but

maybe they're also low thyroid symptoms.

>

> >> Maybe I should

> just get it over with and go to 45mg. With temps holding well and BPs

> rising when I stand I have been reluctant - not to mention fearing

> shutting down my adrenals for good.<<

>

> With temps holding well and BP rising I would NOT go higher. As you

adjust the thyroid UP some other symtooms may self correct. It is not

ALL cortiosl that does this but it works in synergy wiht the other

hormones which yo need to slowly adjuts up as you cna tolerate and

raising more cortils wehne the markers for cortils are good is foolhardy !

>

[Guest guest]

Or another consideration is that steady temps aren't a 100% guarantee a

person is stable. I say this from my own experience. I was stable according

to temps for 2 weeks but still had low cortisol symptoms, even though I

didn't realize how bad. It wasn't until I added more and got much better

that I realized how much I was still suffering. Also, I completely crashed

(temps) during my period and it lasted nearly 2 weeks which also tells me I

was not really stable because I don't think if I was, I should have been

thrown off 2 whole weeks from my period. I could understand a week.

I will see how this month goes with the changes I made.

I also think aldosterone is a consideration. Right now, I feel good on my

dosage and temps are stable at 98.4. However, the dark circles under my eyes

are suddenly getting worse again and I have some 's stuff increasing

like the brown spots on my skin. I am thinking this is linked to

aldosterone. I am going to add in a small amount of licorice and more sea

salt.

I sure wish all this was a lot easier, lol.

Cheri

-----Original Message-----

That is why I have not done so, so far. As I said in my last post,

objective indicators point to me being on enough so I have been

holding steady at 40mg. I have lots of low cortisol symptoms, but

maybe they're also low thyroid symptoms.

.

[Guest guest]

Or another consideration is that steady temps aren't a 100% guarantee a

person is stable. I say this from my own experience. I was stable according

to temps for 2 weeks but still had low cortisol symptoms, even though I

didn't realize how bad. It wasn't until I added more and got much better

that I realized how much I was still suffering. Also, I completely crashed

(temps) during my period and it lasted nearly 2 weeks which also tells me I

was not really stable because I don't think if I was, I should have been

thrown off 2 whole weeks from my period. I could understand a week.

I will see how this month goes with the changes I made.

I also think aldosterone is a consideration. Right now, I feel good on my

dosage and temps are stable at 98.4. However, the dark circles under my eyes

are suddenly getting worse again and I have some 's stuff increasing

like the brown spots on my skin. I am thinking this is linked to

aldosterone. I am going to add in a small amount of licorice and more sea

salt.

I sure wish all this was a lot easier, lol.

Cheri

-----Original Message-----

That is why I have not done so, so far. As I said in my last post,

objective indicators point to me being on enough so I have been

holding steady at 40mg. I have lots of low cortisol symptoms, but

maybe they're also low thyroid symptoms.

.

[Guest guest]

Actual prednisone or prednisolone in the form of delta or medrol and

I'm assuming that that would be INSTEAD of the bed-time dose of HC?

My doc in MI was willing to go the route of Medrol but preferred HC,

and the new doc in GA didn't say no, but wanted to try adaptogens first.

>

> there is one more thing you could try to not raise the dose but

> get better coverage at night. You could try a small PRED dose at

> bedtime. It comes in 1MG doses so that would be equal to 4mg HC so you

> could tailor it to your needs easily. Pred lasts abotu 8-12 hours.

[Guest guest]

Oh, he definitely meant with pills. None of the docs that I have

mentioned cream to are convinced of it's efficacy due to all of the

variables that we discussed here (absorption chief among them). He

also said that I could be on more, even much more, HC and had no

problem prescribing me enough to go up to 40mg or higher. I'm still

ruminating on what Val has posted today on not taking more if temps

and BB is good, and/or on taking pred at night instead.

>

> Well, with cream that would be impossible since it goes through the

blood

> before reaching intestines. With the pill it could be possible. But

instead

> of going massive doses on weekends, what he is really saying is you need

> more.

>

> That said, since I have been on a good dose my digestive system is

working

> better. I have reduced my probiotics from 4 to 2. So, he is right about

> cortisol helping the digestive system.

> Cheri

[Guest guest]

" jasrich " wrote:

> 12.5mg at 7:30AM

10mg at 11:30AM.

7.5mg at 3:30.

5mg at 6:30 - 7PM and

5mg of the gel before bed.

, since it's not recommended you increase your HC, how about

playing around with your current dose? When your first dose is too

high, it lowers your ACTH for the day, making you much more dependent

on external supplmentation, and doesn't give your own adrenals a

chance. So instead of 5x/day dosing, how about trying 6x/day, at

shorter intervals. Might also give you better coverage so you won't

feel so low. I reduced DH's first dose and it seems to be helping

him sleep. I had him at 5, 4, 3, 1 (syringe notches) and moved him

to 4, 4, 3, 1. One notch could be counted as 2.5 mg.

How about:

10 at 7:30

10 at 10:30

7.5 at 1:30

5 at 4:30

5 at 7:30

2.5 at bed

Barb

[Guest guest]

" jasrich " wrote:

> 12.5mg at 7:30AM

10mg at 11:30AM.

7.5mg at 3:30.

5mg at 6:30 - 7PM and

5mg of the gel before bed.

, since it's not recommended you increase your HC, how about

playing around with your current dose? When your first dose is too

high, it lowers your ACTH for the day, making you much more dependent

on external supplmentation, and doesn't give your own adrenals a

chance. So instead of 5x/day dosing, how about trying 6x/day, at

shorter intervals. Might also give you better coverage so you won't

feel so low. I reduced DH's first dose and it seems to be helping

him sleep. I had him at 5, 4, 3, 1 (syringe notches) and moved him

to 4, 4, 3, 1. One notch could be counted as 2.5 mg.

How about:

10 at 7:30

10 at 10:30

7.5 at 1:30

5 at 4:30

5 at 7:30

2.5 at bed

Barb

[Guest guest]

" jasrich " wrote:

> 12.5mg at 7:30AM

10mg at 11:30AM.

7.5mg at 3:30.

5mg at 6:30 - 7PM and

5mg of the gel before bed.

, since it's not recommended you increase your HC, how about

playing around with your current dose? When your first dose is too

high, it lowers your ACTH for the day, making you much more dependent

on external supplmentation, and doesn't give your own adrenals a

chance. So instead of 5x/day dosing, how about trying 6x/day, at

shorter intervals. Might also give you better coverage so you won't

feel so low. I reduced DH's first dose and it seems to be helping

him sleep. I had him at 5, 4, 3, 1 (syringe notches) and moved him

to 4, 4, 3, 1. One notch could be counted as 2.5 mg.

How about:

10 at 7:30

10 at 10:30

7.5 at 1:30

5 at 4:30

5 at 7:30

2.5 at bed

Barb

[Guest guest]

My dark circles have gotten worse too and I've noticed more

pigmentation. I'm much better today so far energy wise than I have

been the past three days of using gel instead of pills for my AM dose,

despite sleeping the same sorry 5-6 hours last night. The GI is

somewhat agitated after lunch again and I haven't made it through the

2-3PM lull yet, but I'm thinking that Val is right that the gel was

not working for me that well after all and I was probably starving

myself of the most important dose of cortisol all day while increasing

Armour. I'm amazed that my temps didn't reflect it but that is

consistent with your experience too - stable temps with lots of low

cortisol symptoms. I was actually crashing relatively hard last night

at 6:30 before I took my 5mg dose - bad stomach pains, dizzy, fatigue,

nausea. I had to have burned through whatever paltry reserves that I

had. There is nothing easy about any of this.

>

> Or another consideration is that steady temps aren't a 100% guarantee a

> person is stable. I say this from my own experience. I was stable

according

> to temps for 2 weeks but still had low cortisol symptoms, even though I

> didn't realize how bad. It wasn't until I added more and got much better

> that I realized how much I was still suffering. Also, I completely

crashed

> (temps) during my period and it lasted nearly 2 weeks which also

tells me I

> was not really stable because I don't think if I was, I should have been

> thrown off 2 whole weeks from my period. I could understand a week.

>

> I will see how this month goes with the changes I made.

>

> I also think aldosterone is a consideration. Right now, I feel good

on my

> dosage and temps are stable at 98.4. However, the dark circles under

my eyes

> are suddenly getting worse again and I have some 's stuff

increasing

> like the brown spots on my skin. I am thinking this is linked to

> aldosterone. I am going to add in a small amount of licorice and

more sea

> salt.

>

> I sure wish all this was a lot easier, lol.

>

> Cheri

[Guest guest]

Did you mean prednisone or prednisolone?

>

> Yes instead of the bedtime HC dose. So it would be same amount just

in a

> longer lasting form.

[Guest guest]

MsSquarepants wrote:

> Or another consideration is that steady temps aren't a 100% guarantee a

> person is stable.

Agreed. My temps stabilized at 25 mg, and though I was able to start

minimal T3 without too much trouble, I could not increase without

problems, so I'm at 30 now. I do need to stress dose a bit here and

there, so I'm guessing I'll end up at 35 mg at some point.

sol

[Guest guest]

Everything is relative it seems. That is 6 hours and 45 minutes of

straight through sleep.

I'd KILL to get that much in one go. I could kill YOU for getting that

much and still complaining.

I understand you want or need more, but you have no idea how hard it is

to read someone complaining of " only " getting 3 times as much sleep as

my best ever sleep in one block.

And yeah, I'm joking, but only just.

sol

jasrich wrote:

> Switched back to cream from gel for last night's dose and slept from

> 11PM to 5:45 which was a slight improvement, but not what I was

> hoping.

[Guest guest]

Everything is relative it seems. That is 6 hours and 45 minutes of

straight through sleep.

I'd KILL to get that much in one go. I could kill YOU for getting that

much and still complaining.

I understand you want or need more, but you have no idea how hard it is

to read someone complaining of " only " getting 3 times as much sleep as

my best ever sleep in one block.

And yeah, I'm joking, but only just.

sol

jasrich wrote:

> Switched back to cream from gel for last night's dose and slept from

> 11PM to 5:45 which was a slight improvement, but not what I was

> hoping.

[Guest guest]

Everything is relative it seems. That is 6 hours and 45 minutes of

straight through sleep.

I'd KILL to get that much in one go. I could kill YOU for getting that

much and still complaining.

I understand you want or need more, but you have no idea how hard it is

to read someone complaining of " only " getting 3 times as much sleep as

my best ever sleep in one block.

And yeah, I'm joking, but only just.

sol

jasrich wrote:

> Switched back to cream from gel for last night's dose and slept from

> 11PM to 5:45 which was a slight improvement, but not what I was

> hoping.

[Guest guest]

I don't know that cream is not working, but I think that the gel was

too weak. I might still use cream at night.

>

> 's Powersmile has no fluoride.

>

> A shower filter and faucet filter help with the chlorine and a lot

of other

> contaminants. You can get Hepa air purifiers just for the bedroom

since we

> spend the most hours there and the important time...sleeping (or

trying too,

> lol).

>

> Sorry to hear the pills cause so much GI upset and the cream is not

strong

> enough.

>

> Cheri

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

>

> I felt better on the pills too, although GI was lousy yesterday and

> didn't sleep well - pretty normal for me these days.

>

> Cheri would say that my intestinal inflammation is b/c I am toxic and

> I agree. I have been eating all of the wrong things for my whole

> life, especially if I can put any faith in the ALCAT food sensitivity

> report that I finally got a copy of yesterday. I have 8 fillings that

> probably need to go some day, and I'm exposed to all of the same bad

> stuff in air and water that we all are (trying to do small things like

> not using toothpaste w/fluoride anymore). I think that most of it is

> food and being hypo for a long, long time, and T4 therapy for last 5

> years making it worse.

>

>

> .

>

>

>

>