Re: Re: what was that magnesium everyone takes?

[Guest guest]

Thanks, I'll keep it in mind, but you know, I don't think I need any

extra magnesium. My blood level, though I know many don't consider them

definitive, is very near the top of the range. I do eat a lot of almonds.

I do know when I take supplemental magnesium not only does it give me

the runs, it makes me feel overall much worse.

I was just curious, as it is impossible for me to imagine anyone could

apply epsom salt to their skin and leave it without itching to death.

sol

amygreen53 wrote:

> If taking magnesium by mouth bothers your digestive tract and epsom

> salts makes you itchy, you might want to try Magnesium Oil (it's not

> really an oil, more like a brine). Google it and you'll find info on

> it. It's an easy way to get magnesium in your system without the

> accompanying " runs " . Not cheap however! Amy

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Sol,

Have you tried the Ancient Minerals magnesium oil? I missed some of this thread,

so maybe you already talked about this. Also, I take magnesium bath soaks and/or

foot soaks which help. I tale Twinlabs L-Taurine to help with absorption of my

magnesium.

[Guest guest]

Sol,

I'm not sure all the effect from epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) is from

the magnesium. I got into researching sulfate after my father, who had

dementia, totally turned around because of applying epsom salts to his

skin....He had been incredibly sensory defensive (screaming when you

touched his skin, not tolerating any light or noise) and that changed

within an hour of getting epsom salts applied to his skin. We went through

about two weeks of his aides watching his behavior on days he either did or

didn't get it applied to his skin, and they found it was critical to his

well-being. Trying to find out why this improvement happened, I found an

article where similar changes occurred in dementia patients after taking

sulfated glycosaminoglycans, which don't have magnesium in them. His

change was so significant that I went back to graduate school to study what

sulfate does and how it is regulated....an area I had to study

independently since my professors really didn't know this area and there

aren't any textbooks about it, either.

After about six years of work (focussed on studying autism), I wrote this,

which sums a lot of what I learned. Please don't anybody copy this without

my specific permission, but I did want to expand people's view of why epsom

salts may have the effects it has.

(in my thirteenth year of autism research)

What Sulfate Does Besides Detoxification....

>Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 23:30:30 -0500

>

>Subject: What does sulfate do besides detoxification?

>

>,

>

>...I began searching out the function of sulfate about seven years ago

>after hearing Dr. Waring lecture in England. I was surprised to find her

>only talking about detoxification, and the lack of sulfation of the mucins

>that line the gut and protect it from the acids in the gut. She was

>talking about how proper sulfation may keep the gut from turning into a

> " leaky gut " which could initiate all sorts of unwelcome things like food

>allergies and opiate excess problems, and even a vulnerability to

>intestinal pathogens like candida.

>

>I thought the positive changes I saw in my family could not be explained

>properly by any of the things she mentioned, so at that time, I began to

>search through the medical and biological literature to see what else

>sulfate does.

>

>Sulfate has to be attached by an enzyme called a sulfotransferase. There

>are many types of sulfotransferases, and they work by recognizing specific

>shapes and charges in the molecules that they are going to sulfate.

>

>I started studying what other sulfotransferases besides PST do. I found

>out one very critical fact which needs to balance what people are saying

>about PST on the internet. This is the critical fact: many other

>sulfotransferases are much MORE effected by sulfate deficiency than the

>enzyme PST. Why? Because PST can get by with very low sulfate levels

>before it starts to be inhibited.

>

>Some other sulfotransferases are as much as a thousand times more

>sensitive to a lack of sulfate than PST, but PST function is MUCH easier

>to measure in the laboratory, and that is why ITS activity has been

>popularized. Some children may need much more sulfate who have no

> " PST " ish symptoms at all. Listmates should not use the lists that are on

>the internet for " PST " problems to decide that their children DON'T have a

>sulfation problem. Instead, look at how applicable to your own child are

>the functions I will list below.

>

>Actually, so far, it seems that the most critical sulfotransferase for

>needing sulfate is chondriotin sulfate sulfotransferase, although it has a

>more complicated " real " name than that. Chondroitin sulfate, after it is

>changed by these enzymes, will have huge long regions basically covered

>with sulfate which has been attached covalently at many, many points along

>its length. Wthout that sulfate, the molecule will lose its function.

>

>To give you a feel for how much sulfate we are talking about, these chains

>of carbohydrate can contain more than a hundred saccharides. Saccharides

>are particular rings of carbon which can have as many as three of their

>carbons sulfated on either the carbon or on something else attached to the

>carbon. If you do your math, you will see that this is a much bigger deal

>than attaching one sulfate to one molecule that needs

>detoxification. Many molecules have multiple long chains of carbohydrate

>that are sulfated. In fact, most cells are literally covered with

>molecules holding onto these chains like a tree trunk holds onto its

>branches. The thickness of the canopy this forms at the cell surface is

>reminiscent of the canopy of branches that form in the

>rainforest. However, a lot of these chains are also shed from the cell

>surface under careful regulation. They travel into the immediate

>environment of the cell, and are sequestered in a highly regulatory region

>outside the cell called the extracellular matrix.

>

>Now I'm getting to the good stuff: the punch line.

>

>Chondroitin sulfate with its impressive regions of sulfate is critical for

>axon guidance, which is a term for describing WHERE the longest extension

>of a neuron will go. Chondroitin sulfate's close kin dermatan sulfate

>(which uses the same enzyme) is critical for the formation of dendrites

>from neurons...these are the smaller extensions from neurons that make

>connections between neurons. Other similarly sulfated carbohydrate

>molecules are critical for initiating the signal to form axons in the

>first place, and induce them to travel as far as from your brain to the

>tips of your toes. I know my daughter when she was an infant and toddler

>seemed to have less control over the " far away " parts of her body, like

>her legs. She couldn't stand up on her legs for the longest time...while

>children her age were walking and toddling around.

>

>Also, chondroitin sulfate in the extracellular matrix forms a sort of

>canopy around certain types of neurons in a structure called a

>perineuronal net. The sulfate on those nets regulates ion traffic from

>the outside of certain neurons. From there, chondroitin sulfate provides

>something like a volume control for the neuron it surrounds. Lack of this

>volume control or modulation probably has a LOT to do with sensory

>defensiveness. These molecules turn over quickly, which I suspect must

>explain why my father and daughter had such a quick neurological response

>to their earlier experiences with epsom salts.

>

>It is important to know that this type of perineuronal net is also

>particularly important for interneurons, which are modulatory neurons that

>help other neurons talk to each other. There are many interneurons in the

>brain, but this sort of setup is best understood by thinking about the

>smooth operation of muscles, for instance. A muscle on one side of a bone

>needs to relax when the muscle on the other side of the bone needs to

>constrict, in order for you to move your arm smoothly, for instance. The

>neurons on those different muscles have to talk to each other in order to

>coordinate this relaxation, constriction and resultant movement. If this

>communication is not working well, the movement might be jerky, or hard to

>initiate. But many more obtuse brain functions also use interneurons for

>coordinating all sorts of messages.

>

>In the brain itself, the highly sulfated perineuronal nets are CRITICAL to

>the function of the vestibular system, the auditory system, the

>somatosensory system, trunk control, and about five of the cranial nerves,

>and speech, for starters.

>

>Sulfate is also a crticial regulator of the gastrointestinal system. The

>two main GI hormones, cholecystokinin and gastrin, need to be sulfated to

>work correctly. They are sulfated by a sulfotransferase called tyrosyl

>protein sulfotransferase, or TPST.

>

>Cholecystokin's sulfation is also critical for something entirely

>different from gut function: for the production of oxytocin. Oxytocin is

>the hormone that changes the way your brain processes social

>signals. Literally, it makes different regions in the brain light up in

>response to something like a face than it would without oxytocin. This

>effect of oxytocin is not a " wiring " issue, but is a chemical issue.

>

>I suspect as sulfation gets poorer, you will see the sensory integration

>problems degrade into GI problems and more autism-like symptoms, simply

>because enzymes that attach sulfate have such a different capability to

>cope with sulfate deficiency. The ones that need the highest

>concentration fail first, and those that need a lower concentration fail next.

>

>Sulfate also regulates most of your body's hormones by either saving them

>from degradation, helping in their formation, or turning them off, or

>saving them for later. Sulfate is also is critical for signalling changes

>that must occur as growth and development proceed. I really wonder how

>much lack of sulfate is to blame for the now very obvious earlier puberty

>that girls are experiencing, for instance.

>

>In order to get a feel for the systemic issues, I've been analyzing plasma

>amino acid profiles from children with autism and a handful of other

>things like SID (my daughter there, mostly). The overwhelmingly most

>consistent problem is a lack of cystine, which is the precursor of

>sulfate. ( " Precursor " means the raw material for making something.)

>

>Some organs don't like to take sulfate out of the blood, but they like to

>make their own sulfate from cystine and its components, which are two

>cysteine molecules. The type of cell that likes to make its own sulfate

>wouldn't benefit from epsom salts directly, but it may get more cystine

>from the blood because sulfate in the blood is adequate, and this may mean

>the liver will leave more cystine in the blood for other cells to use.

>

>Because of this problem of needing more cystine (or cysteine), now I

>realize that some children may not respond so much to epsom salts alone

>because what they really need is more cysteine. This is especially

>important if your child has developed GI symptoms, for the gut needs

>another molecule to be formed from cystine, and that is glutathione. Lack

>of glutathione in the gut seems to be involved with inflammatory bowel disease.

>

>There is a supplement called N-acetyl cysteine you can buy at the health

>food store to help supply cysteine. Also, glucosamine sulfate may be yet

>another way to furnish sulfate to a variety of cell types. There is still

>much to learn experimentally in this area.

>

>To recap, only a very small part of sulfation has to do with

>detoxification. Mostly, sulfate is a powerful regulator of brain

>signalling, hormone signalling, the other cell signalling. Sulfate is a

>critical player in brain function, neurodevelopment, maturity and growth.

>

>

0174

At 05:48 PM 2/17/2008, you wrote:

>Nobody excetp othr people it has happened to has ever said to me that

>taking supplemental magnesium can make a person feel worse.

>If you need extra mag, you might try magnesium orotate, magnesium

>malate, or magnesium glycinate.Dr. A. Stoff (Chronic Fatigue

>Syndrome) says magnesium orotate is the best form to take. I now have

>magnesium glycinate and magnesium orotate to try. At which point I will

>have taken every form except aspartate. At which point if both the new

>forms also make me feel worse, I will give up on magnesium. The only

>reason I want to try these forms is because I want to be perfectly sure

>it is the magnesium itself that makes me feel worse, and not the form

>the magnesium is in. Heck, I might even try the epsom salts in the

>shower, I guess I'm just bowing to the pressure from all sides that

>almost everyone needs extra magnesium, and want to be able to say I have

>given it a truly exhaustive try.

>sol

>

>

----------

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.5 - Release Date: 2/14/2008 12:00 AM

[Guest guest]

,

I don't know if you are aware that almonds (286 mgs magnesium per 100

grams) are extremely high in oxalate. If you are trying to get magnesium,

pepitos (pumpkin seeds) would be a much better choice.

Oxalate is a component of plant foods that is much higher in some plant

foods than others, and if it gets through a hyperpermeable gut and into

circulation, this substance can be very destructive. People have known how

it can tear up the kidneys, but a lot of its effects in other organs have

not been recognized as such even though there is a lot of literature on

it...that nobody's read, for the most part.

I'm beginning to realize that oxalate (that gets through to the rest of the

body through a leaky gut) may be a serious disrupter of neurochemistry for

some people, especially in the regions of the brain NOT protected by the

blood brain barrier and I think this may be quite relevant to what we are

talking about on this list if you consider which areas are vulnerable.

Areas where oxalate may freely travel would include the choroid plexus (the

brain's kidney where sulfate is regulated and where oxalate could interfere

with sulfate trafficking), the pituitary (where the hormones may get

disrupted) , the pineal gland (where sleep may become dysregulated), the

tuber cinereum (which is involved in regulating histamine in the brain in a

way that also influences diurnal rhythm, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuber_cinereum) , and the area postrema (which

detects toxins in the blood, and induces nausea and vomiting). Pretty much

all of these areas have been messed up in my daughter, and at the same time

there are so many people with fibromyalgia telling me that getting off

oxalate is becoming extremely important to their avoidance of pain,

stiffness, and other issues.

I got into studying oxalate through my research in autism, and in that

condition, I think the oxalate may be getting beyond the blood brain

barrier into all sorts of regions of the brain, because people are turning

around so much on a low oxalate diet...even adults with autism.

Of course, I'm still grappling with what oxalate may be doing in my own

teenaged daughter who has recently been diagnosed with fibromyalgia and

looks like she has adrenal fatigue (testing done and waiting for

results). So far it seems that every time she gets a significant amount of

high oxalate food (potatoes, mainly, for her) she has a crash the next

day. This is getting so tricky because whenever she is eating out, she

will choose french fries and is not (at this point) willing to choose other

side dishes instead. That's why I'm working harder at cooking at home,

because then I can control the amount of oxalate in the meal without a

conflict. (In other words, she will eat foods at home she won't order in a

restaurant.)

Mag citrate may actually liberate oxalate that has crystallized as calcium

oxalate in tissues, so there is some chance that oxalate could be somewhat

responsible for the GI issues you are experiencing. To compare notes to

others using mag citrate and dealing with some oxalate issues, you might be

interested in looking at the yahoogroup I set up three years ago called

Trying_Low_Oxalates where there is a lot of conversation

about the association of oxalates to GI symptoms. Also, you can find a

food list showing which foods are high oxalate at

www.lowoxalate.info. Amost all nuts are high oxalate. Some that are lower

in oxalate are pumpkin seeds (pepitos) (534 mgs magnesium per 100 grams)

and sunflower seeds (127 mgs. of magnesium per 100 grams). Sesame seeds

are unbelievably high in oxalate, so be aware of that if you eat tahini!

At 03:35 PM 2/17/2008, you wrote:

>I've been eating almonds and almond butter too and I would love to not

>take the mag citrate that I have been taking in the evenings b/c I

>think that it upsets my stomach. It definitely loosens things up for

>the next day which I don't mind, but my GI tends to be worse at night

>and that is just one more insult that it doesn't need. So are the

>almonds that strong in mag that I can get away with it? My mag lab

>(RBC) wasn't high but it was right in the middle of the range. When I

>was injecting the mag that my new doc gave me (they gave me this BMAG

>pack that is a cocktail of .6ml of mag, .2ml of B-12 and .2ml of

>B-Complex) I felt like crap after taking it and my local doc confirmed

>that people usually do. New doc never warned me of that of course.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Thanks, I'll keep it in mind, but you know, I don't think I need any

> > extra magnesium. My blood level, though I know many don't consider them

> > definitive, is very near the top of the range. I do eat a lot of

>almonds.

> > I do know when I take supplemental magnesium not only does it give me

> > the runs, it makes me feel overall much worse.

> > I was just curious, as it is impossible for me to imagine anyone could

> > apply epsom salt to their skin and leave it without itching to death.

> > sol

>

>

----------

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.5 - Release Date: 2/14/2008 12:00 AM

[Guest guest]

Owens wrote:

> ,

>

> I don't know if you are aware that almonds (286 mgs magnesium per 100

> grams) are extremely high in oxalate. If you are trying to get magnesium,

> pepitos (pumpkin seeds) would be a much better choice.

>

For people who are not allergic to them. I eat what I can eat without

allergy reactions. So I'm not , but I do not have the choice to eat

pumpkin seeds.

Do oxalates relate to the nightshade family in any way? (Potatoes are a

nightshade veg). Or is the nightshade issue separate?

I can eat sunflower seeds but they are not listed as being a good source

of magnesium on the list I looked at. I just looked over a list of high

magnesium foods, and I either can't eat them due to allergy, or don't

eat them due to high carbs. The ones I can eat are all high oxalate.

This is interesting, I just joined your oxalate list, to learn more.

I also found this:

<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL & _udi=B6WJH-4N0XNDY-1 & _user=\

10 & _rdoc=1 & _fmt= & _orig=search & _sort=d & view=c & _acct=C000050221 & _version=1 & _urlVer\

sion=0 & _userid=10 & md5=288b0cf4e9eae0d0dff3a7bd3993962e>

> Roasted pistachio nuts and chestnuts contained very low levels (<85

> mg/100 g fresh weight (FW)) of gastric soluble oxalate. Peanuts,

> Spanish peanuts, peanut butter, ginkgo, cashew nuts and pecan nuts all

> contained relatively low levels of gastric soluble oxalate (147–250 mg

> gastric soluble oxalate/100 g FW). Almonds, Brazil, pine and candle

> nuts contained high levels of gastric soluble oxalate (492.0–556.8

> mg/100 g FW). The intestinal soluble oxalate is the fraction that will

> be absorbed in the small intestine. Peanuts, Spanish peanuts, peanut

> butter, ginkgo and pecan nuts all contained relatively low levels of

> intestinal soluble oxalate (129–173 mg intestinal soluble oxalate/100

> g FW). Almonds, Brazil, cashew and candle nuts contained higher levels

> of intestinal soluble oxalate (216–305 mg/100 g FW). Pinenuts

> contained the highest levels of intestinal soluble oxalate

To be honest, I really don't want to have to deal with more food

exclusions, my diet is so restricted already. But it does look like

being worth learning about.

sol

[Guest guest]

Sol,

We have a lot of moms baking things out of chestnut flour and it

works! Pistachios are relatively low for a nut at 65 mgs a cup, but that

is still pretty high unless you are talking about just a few nuts. They

only have 120 mgs of magnesium in 100 grams.

Are you allergic to pepitos?

A lot of the nightshades are high oxalate, but I think the sensitvity to

them is more allergic, so more a reaction to their proteins. Oxalate is a

very simple compound made of two carbons and four oxygens, so it is not

involved in protein issues.

I saw that you subscribed since I moderate the list. I'm thrilled, and

look forward to your comments there.

At 01:33 PM 2/18/2008, you wrote:

> Owens wrote:

> > ,

> >

> > I don't know if you are aware that almonds (286 mgs magnesium per 100

> > grams) are extremely high in oxalate. If you are trying to get magnesium,

> > pepitos (pumpkin seeds) would be a much better choice.

> >

>For people who are not allergic to them. I eat what I can eat without

>allergy reactions. So I'm not , but I do not have the choice to eat

>pumpkin seeds.

>Do oxalates relate to the nightshade family in any way? (Potatoes are a

>nightshade veg). Or is the nightshade issue separate?

>I can eat sunflower seeds but they are not listed as being a good source

>of magnesium on the list I looked at. I just looked over a list of high

>magnesium foods, and I either can't eat them due to allergy, or don't

>eat them due to high carbs. The ones I can eat are all high oxalate.

>This is interesting, I just joined your oxalate list, to learn more.

>I also found this:

><http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL & _udi=B6WJH-4N0XNDY-1 & _user\

=10 & _rdoc=1 & _fmt= & _orig=search & _sort=d & view=c & _acct=C000050221 & _version=1 & _urlVe\

rsion=0 & _userid=10 & md5=288b0cf4e9eae0d0dff3a7bd3993962e>

> > Roasted pistachio nuts and chestnuts contained very low levels (<85

> > mg/100 g fresh weight (FW)) of gastric soluble oxalate. Peanuts,

> > Spanish peanuts, peanut butter, ginkgo, cashew nuts and pecan nuts all

> > contained relatively low levels of gastric soluble oxalate (147­250 mg

> > gastric soluble oxalate/100 g FW). Almonds, Brazil, pine and candle

> > nuts contained high levels of gastric soluble oxalate (492.0­556.8

> > mg/100 g FW). The intestinal soluble oxalate is the fraction that will

> > be absorbed in the small intestine. Peanuts, Spanish peanuts, peanut

> > butter, ginkgo and pecan nuts all contained relatively low levels of

> > intestinal soluble oxalate (129­173 mg intestinal soluble oxalate/100

> > g FW). Almonds, Brazil, cashew and candle nuts contained higher levels

> > of intestinal soluble oxalate (216­305 mg/100 g FW). Pinenuts

> > contained the highest levels of intestinal soluble oxalate

>To be honest, I really don't want to have to deal with more food

>exclusions, my diet is so restricted already. But it does look like

>being worth learning about.

>sol

>

>

>

>

>