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In a message dated 9/26/2002 8:40:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

simon@... writes:

> I'd be concerned about practical issues with making healthy

> clones safely, but once the technology is as safe as other

> fertility treatments, why not?

>

Even if cloning were as safe as other fertility treatments, I have to wonder

about the psychological impact to the child. Imagine that your child is a

clone of yourself. As you watch your Mini Me go through a particularly

awkward time of life, you remember exactly how much that phase of life hurt

and want desparately to intervene. Of course, you'd feel the same if your

child weren't a clone. But, unlike a natural child, you know exactly how

long this difficult phase will last. Maybe you were 18 before you hit a

growth spurt. What do you say to your child who is crying that at 12, all

the other kids, including girls, are 6 inches taller than he is. Perhaps he

doesn't have the sense of humor and ability to shrug off teasing like you

did. Or maybe your child is overweight and you remember that you dieted

unsuccessfully all your life and you don't want your baby to go through the

same thing. So, you put her on a diet and exercise program, reaffirm her

insecurites, and ensure she'll have an unhealthy body image for the rest of

her life. I don't know about you, but adolescence was rough for me. My

emotions would overwelm my judgement if I watched someone who looked just

like me go through the same thing.

Tori

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In a message dated 9/26/2002 8:40:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

simon@... writes:

> I'd be concerned about practical issues with making healthy

> clones safely, but once the technology is as safe as other

> fertility treatments, why not?

>

Even if cloning were as safe as other fertility treatments, I have to wonder

about the psychological impact to the child. Imagine that your child is a

clone of yourself. As you watch your Mini Me go through a particularly

awkward time of life, you remember exactly how much that phase of life hurt

and want desparately to intervene. Of course, you'd feel the same if your

child weren't a clone. But, unlike a natural child, you know exactly how

long this difficult phase will last. Maybe you were 18 before you hit a

growth spurt. What do you say to your child who is crying that at 12, all

the other kids, including girls, are 6 inches taller than he is. Perhaps he

doesn't have the sense of humor and ability to shrug off teasing like you

did. Or maybe your child is overweight and you remember that you dieted

unsuccessfully all your life and you don't want your baby to go through the

same thing. So, you put her on a diet and exercise program, reaffirm her

insecurites, and ensure she'll have an unhealthy body image for the rest of

her life. I don't know about you, but adolescence was rough for me. My

emotions would overwelm my judgement if I watched someone who looked just

like me go through the same thing.

Tori

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In a message dated 9/26/2002 8:40:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

simon@... writes:

> I'd be concerned about practical issues with making healthy

> clones safely, but once the technology is as safe as other

> fertility treatments, why not?

>

Even if cloning were as safe as other fertility treatments, I have to wonder

about the psychological impact to the child. Imagine that your child is a

clone of yourself. As you watch your Mini Me go through a particularly

awkward time of life, you remember exactly how much that phase of life hurt

and want desparately to intervene. Of course, you'd feel the same if your

child weren't a clone. But, unlike a natural child, you know exactly how

long this difficult phase will last. Maybe you were 18 before you hit a

growth spurt. What do you say to your child who is crying that at 12, all

the other kids, including girls, are 6 inches taller than he is. Perhaps he

doesn't have the sense of humor and ability to shrug off teasing like you

did. Or maybe your child is overweight and you remember that you dieted

unsuccessfully all your life and you don't want your baby to go through the

same thing. So, you put her on a diet and exercise program, reaffirm her

insecurites, and ensure she'll have an unhealthy body image for the rest of

her life. I don't know about you, but adolescence was rough for me. My

emotions would overwelm my judgement if I watched someone who looked just

like me go through the same thing.

Tori

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Hi and all,

Did any of you see the special on last week about Reeve? His

foundation is working very very hard on a bill that should be up before the

Senate sometime next year to allow therapeutic cloning to produce stem cells

to come up with cures for his paralisis AND to help find cures for many

other diseases, including autoimmune diseases. It sounds so promising and

it is done with unfertilized eggs in which they take a donor egg and inject

a persons DNA into it to produce the needed stem cells to create whatever is

needed for a person to be healed. You can read more about this at

http://www.capwiz.com/reeve/issues/alert/?alertid=305341&type=CO

I have long been a believer that our hope lies in stem cell research which

was extremely limited by the Bush administration, hopefully things will

change if we all were to contact our representatives in both the House and

the Senate.

I am NOT for human cloning, not by a longshot! If stem cells that are

needed can be produced using an unfertilzed egg then it should be allowed.

Reeve said on his special

that he could go right now to the UK and have this

done, come home walking and be arrested for how he became cured. There is

something very wrong in this whole scenerio. They are so close to how to

make this work and could do so much good with this, it should be

allowed...all of us, those with no thyroids, those that have been ablated

through I-131 and those with thyroids gone haywire because of our immune

systems would all have a chance if we can get this to pass!

Jody

_________________________________________________________________

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Hi Jody, Reeve - I'm very proud of him and he is an inspiration.

If he can overcome what he's been through, then I can overcome *this*.

What I want to know though is this, you said:

Reeve said on his special

that he could go right now to the UK and have this

done, come home walking and be arrested for how he became cured.

Well, why doesn't he just do it? I would. I would get my butt over there and

do it. That just doesn't make sense. Say for example I go to Canada, I can

smoke pot there if I want to because it's not against the law. If I come

back home to the US, they can't arrest me for it. So why can't he go to

England and have a medical procedure, and then come home cured?

And say he does get cured and he comes home, what if he did get arrested? I

would think any of today's juries would let him off (they let OJ off!),

maybe set an example and get those laws changed. Except now they have in on

record that he knew before hand that he would get in trouble... so that's

not so good for his case, but still... it doesn't make sense.

Thanks for sharing... I will keep my eye on stem cell stuff in the news from

now on!

Pam B.

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Here is an analogy-

We all have skin on our butt. It serves a purpose where it is. If we

sustain a burn somewhere else on our body, we can remove the skin off our

butt and place it on the damaged area of skin so it can regenerate and heal

us.

Same thing with an unfertilized egg in my book......

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Jody Spitale wrote:

>

> I am NOT for human cloning, not by a longshot!

I don't have a problem with cloning. Now cloning for medical

spare parts would be unethical, but cloning of itself, as say an

infertility treatment doesn't bother me.

Some of my best friends are clones - I mean identical twins.

I'd be concerned about practical issues with making healthy

clones safely, but once the technology is as safe as other

fertility treatments, why not?

Now quite why you would want clones when the other methods are

so much fun, but I don't see this as some evil technology,

although like most technologies it can be abused.

Simon

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Pam,

I quoted him wrong...he may have said he *could* go to the UK, using

it as an example, to have it done, hubby says that he believes he said

'if it were available there'. It has been over a week since I watched

it so hubby is probably right.

Yahoo is screwing up again. I am not getting any of my e-mails, have

to be on site to read and respond.

Jody

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Simon,

>>>I don't have a problem with cloning. Now cloning for medical

spare parts would be unethical, but cloning of itself, as say an

infertility treatment doesn't bother me.<<<

I don't follow your logic here. Why on earth would you be against

stem cell research/theraputic cloning to help replace your own

thyroid, or whatever needs fixed...but allowing human cloning is fine?

I really am trying to understand your perspective on this. If they

could regrow my thyroid in working order, fix our immune systems, cure

Parkinsons, Alzheimers, cancers, MS, injuries...what is wrong with

that?

I would donate what is left of my egg reserve for

research in this, even if they couldn't do anything for me in my life

time.

Jody

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Simon,

>>>I don't have a problem with cloning. Now cloning for medical

spare parts would be unethical, but cloning of itself, as say an

infertility treatment doesn't bother me.<<<

I don't follow your logic here. Why on earth would you be against

stem cell research/theraputic cloning to help replace your own

thyroid, or whatever needs fixed...but allowing human cloning is fine?

I really am trying to understand your perspective on this. If they

could regrow my thyroid in working order, fix our immune systems, cure

Parkinsons, Alzheimers, cancers, MS, injuries...what is wrong with

that?

I would donate what is left of my egg reserve for

research in this, even if they couldn't do anything for me in my life

time.

Jody

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Simon,

>>>I don't have a problem with cloning. Now cloning for medical

spare parts would be unethical, but cloning of itself, as say an

infertility treatment doesn't bother me.<<<

I don't follow your logic here. Why on earth would you be against

stem cell research/theraputic cloning to help replace your own

thyroid, or whatever needs fixed...but allowing human cloning is fine?

I really am trying to understand your perspective on this. If they

could regrow my thyroid in working order, fix our immune systems, cure

Parkinsons, Alzheimers, cancers, MS, injuries...what is wrong with

that?

I would donate what is left of my egg reserve for

research in this, even if they couldn't do anything for me in my life

time.

Jody

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Hi Jody and all -

Hope you are feeling better this morning, Jody. Yes, I saw that

special on Reeve. That man is truly a hero!!!!! If the

eggs are unfertilized, then what's all the hoopla?? I'd love to see

thyroid replacements someday..... and soon!

Just wanted to give you all a link to make it easier to

figure out who your legislators are - these come in handy

when on letter-writing campaigns......

http://www.firstgov.gov/Contact/By_agency.shtml

Best Wishes,

Chris

---------------

> Hi and all,

> Did any of you see the special on last week about

Reeve? His

> foundation is working very very hard on a bill that should be up

before the

> Senate sometime next year to allow therapeutic cloning to produce

stem cells

> to come up with cures for his paralisis AND to help find cures for

many

> other diseases, including autoimmune diseases. It sounds so

promising and

> it is done with unfertilized eggs in which they take a donor egg

and inject

> a persons DNA into it to produce the needed stem cells to create

whatever is

> needed for a person to be healed. You can read more about this at

>

> http://www.capwiz.com/reeve/issues/alert/?alertid=305341&type=CO

>

> I have long been a believer that our hope lies in stem cell

research which

> was extremely limited by the Bush administration, hopefully things

will

> change if we all were to contact our representatives in both the

House and

> the Senate.

>

> I am NOT for human cloning, not by a longshot! If stem cells that

are

> needed can be produced using an unfertilzed egg then it should be

allowed.

>

> Reeve said on his special

program on their site> that he could go right now to the UK and

have this

> done, come home walking and be arrested for how he became cured.

There is

> something very wrong in this whole scenerio. They are so close to

how to

> make this work and could do so much good with this, it should be

> allowed...all of us, those with no thyroids, those that have been

ablated

> through I-131 and those with thyroids gone haywire because of our

immune

> systems would all have a chance if we can get this to pass!

> Jody

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:

http://mobile.msn.com

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Hi Jody and all -

Hope you are feeling better this morning, Jody. Yes, I saw that

special on Reeve. That man is truly a hero!!!!! If the

eggs are unfertilized, then what's all the hoopla?? I'd love to see

thyroid replacements someday..... and soon!

Just wanted to give you all a link to make it easier to

figure out who your legislators are - these come in handy

when on letter-writing campaigns......

http://www.firstgov.gov/Contact/By_agency.shtml

Best Wishes,

Chris

---------------

> Hi and all,

> Did any of you see the special on last week about

Reeve? His

> foundation is working very very hard on a bill that should be up

before the

> Senate sometime next year to allow therapeutic cloning to produce

stem cells

> to come up with cures for his paralisis AND to help find cures for

many

> other diseases, including autoimmune diseases. It sounds so

promising and

> it is done with unfertilized eggs in which they take a donor egg

and inject

> a persons DNA into it to produce the needed stem cells to create

whatever is

> needed for a person to be healed. You can read more about this at

>

> http://www.capwiz.com/reeve/issues/alert/?alertid=305341&type=CO

>

> I have long been a believer that our hope lies in stem cell

research which

> was extremely limited by the Bush administration, hopefully things

will

> change if we all were to contact our representatives in both the

House and

> the Senate.

>

> I am NOT for human cloning, not by a longshot! If stem cells that

are

> needed can be produced using an unfertilzed egg then it should be

allowed.

>

> Reeve said on his special

program on their site> that he could go right now to the UK and

have this

> done, come home walking and be arrested for how he became cured.

There is

> something very wrong in this whole scenerio. They are so close to

how to

> make this work and could do so much good with this, it should be

> allowed...all of us, those with no thyroids, those that have been

ablated

> through I-131 and those with thyroids gone haywire because of our

immune

> systems would all have a chance if we can get this to pass!

> Jody

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:

http://mobile.msn.com

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Share on other sites

Hi Jody and all -

Hope you are feeling better this morning, Jody. Yes, I saw that

special on Reeve. That man is truly a hero!!!!! If the

eggs are unfertilized, then what's all the hoopla?? I'd love to see

thyroid replacements someday..... and soon!

Just wanted to give you all a link to make it easier to

figure out who your legislators are - these come in handy

when on letter-writing campaigns......

http://www.firstgov.gov/Contact/By_agency.shtml

Best Wishes,

Chris

---------------

> Hi and all,

> Did any of you see the special on last week about

Reeve? His

> foundation is working very very hard on a bill that should be up

before the

> Senate sometime next year to allow therapeutic cloning to produce

stem cells

> to come up with cures for his paralisis AND to help find cures for

many

> other diseases, including autoimmune diseases. It sounds so

promising and

> it is done with unfertilized eggs in which they take a donor egg

and inject

> a persons DNA into it to produce the needed stem cells to create

whatever is

> needed for a person to be healed. You can read more about this at

>

> http://www.capwiz.com/reeve/issues/alert/?alertid=305341&type=CO

>

> I have long been a believer that our hope lies in stem cell

research which

> was extremely limited by the Bush administration, hopefully things

will

> change if we all were to contact our representatives in both the

House and

> the Senate.

>

> I am NOT for human cloning, not by a longshot! If stem cells that

are

> needed can be produced using an unfertilzed egg then it should be

allowed.

>

> Reeve said on his special

program on their site> that he could go right now to the UK and

have this

> done, come home walking and be arrested for how he became cured.

There is

> something very wrong in this whole scenerio. They are so close to

how to

> make this work and could do so much good with this, it should be

> allowed...all of us, those with no thyroids, those that have been

ablated

> through I-131 and those with thyroids gone haywire because of our

immune

> systems would all have a chance if we can get this to pass!

> Jody

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device:

http://mobile.msn.com

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I didn't realize they those concerns about test tube babies. In my mind, the

two are worlds apart. Method of conception seems irrelevant to me other than

to suggest how much the babies are wanted.

In a message dated 9/26/2002 12:17:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

jutek@... writes:

> Hi Tori-

>

> They had all those worries about test tube babies. I remember all the

> newspaper articles about how tortured Louise Brown would be as she grew up

> (those of you in England-Did they follow-up on her emotionally?). Now

> she's

> approaching 25 or 30.

>

> The 2 babies I'm carrying are test tube babies and I don't think much about

> how they were conceived at all although I'll probably tell them someday.

>

> Take care,

>

>

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What does all this mean in simple terms?

In a message dated 9/26/2002 12:25:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

jutek@... writes:

> I have the opinion that it's pretty scary if I'm stopped from putting my own

> skin cell nucleus into my own anucleate egg if I want to.

>

> If there's no conception and it is not allowed to develop to the

> differentiated embryo stage, then I don't want anyone telling me I can't do

> it.

>

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Hi Tori-

They had all those worries about test tube babies. I remember all the

newspaper articles about how tortured Louise Brown would be as she grew up

(those of you in England-Did they follow-up on her emotionally?). Now she's

approaching 25 or 30.

The 2 babies I'm carrying are test tube babies and I don't think much about

how they were conceived at all although I'll probably tell them someday.

Take care,

> In a message dated 9/26/2002 8:40:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> simon@... writes:

>

>

> > I'd be concerned about practical issues with making healthy

> > clones safely, but once the technology is as safe as other

> > fertility treatments, why not?

> >

>

> Even if cloning were as safe as other fertility treatments, I have to

wonder

> about the psychological impact to the child. Imagine that your child is a

> clone of yourself. As you watch your Mini Me go through a particularly

> awkward time of life, you remember exactly how much that phase of life

hurt

> and want desparately to intervene. Of course, you'd feel the same if your

> child weren't a clone. But, unlike a natural child, you know exactly how

> long this difficult phase will last. Maybe you were 18 before you hit a

> growth spurt. What do you say to your child who is crying that at 12, all

> the other kids, including girls, are 6 inches taller than he is. Perhaps

he

> doesn't have the sense of humor and ability to shrug off teasing like you

> did. Or maybe your child is overweight and you remember that you dieted

> unsuccessfully all your life and you don't want your baby to go through

the

> same thing. So, you put her on a diet and exercise program, reaffirm her

> insecurites, and ensure she'll have an unhealthy body image for the rest

of

> her life. I don't know about you, but adolescence was rough for me. My

> emotions would overwelm my judgement if I watched someone who looked just

> like me go through the same thing.

>

> Tori

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Hi Simon-

I think you mean if the cells were allowed to specialize in the embryo and

then it was killed for it's specialized cells? Part of the problem with the

definition is that they start calling a zygote or blastocyst an embryo right

away. I can understand why people have a problem with even that though.

I think the problem is that the Right to Life movement has always defined

human life beginning at conception. If you take a diploid nucleus and

inject it into an anucleate egg, there is no conception. Conception has

always meant haploid egg DNA coming together with haploid sperm DNA. This

has thrown a whole new wrench into things. And the right to life movement

is trying to stop this kind of research too.

And you're right about identical twins being clones. Even so, I have some

problems with with it because it interferes with evolution. But, then

again, look what I've done to become pregnant. An awful lot of people would

say I'm not meant to have children. I make it right in my head by thinking

that my infertility was medically induced.

What if my infertility wasn't medically induced? Who am I to look down my

nose at a couple desperate to have a baby? People are not going to choose

that route unless they have no choice. I don't think that it would happen

enough for it to make a difference in the big scheme of things.

Anyhow, it was decidedly unfun getting pregnant this time and I much prefer

the other way.

Take care,

> Jody Spitale wrote:

> >

> > I am NOT for human cloning, not by a longshot!

>

> I don't have a problem with cloning. Now cloning for medical

> spare parts would be unethical, but cloning of itself, as say an

> infertility treatment doesn't bother me.

>

> Some of my best friends are clones - I mean identical twins.

>

> I'd be concerned about practical issues with making healthy

> clones safely, but once the technology is as safe as other

> fertility treatments, why not?

>

> Now quite why you would want clones when the other methods are

> so much fun, but I don't see this as some evil technology,

> although like most technologies it can be abused.

>

> Simon

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Hi Jody-

I have the opinion that it's pretty scary if I'm stopped from putting my own

skin cell nucleus into my own anucleate egg if I want to.

If there's no conception and it is not allowed to develop to the

differentiated embryo stage, then I don't want anyone telling me I can't do

it.

It's going to happen. Maybe not with me but that's the way research is

going.

Take care,

> Hi and all,

> Did any of you see the special on last week about Reeve? His

> foundation is working very very hard on a bill that should be up before

the

> Senate sometime next year to allow therapeutic cloning to produce stem

cells

> to come up with cures for his paralisis AND to help find cures for many

> other diseases, including autoimmune diseases. It sounds so promising and

> it is done with unfertilized eggs in which they take a donor egg and

inject

> a persons DNA into it to produce the needed stem cells to create whatever

is

> needed for a person to be healed. You can read more about this at

>

> http://www.capwiz.com/reeve/issues/alert/?alertid=305341&type=CO

>

> I have long been a believer that our hope lies in stem cell research which

> was extremely limited by the Bush administration, hopefully things will

> change if we all were to contact our representatives in both the House and

> the Senate.

>

> I am NOT for human cloning, not by a longshot! If stem cells that are

> needed can be produced using an unfertilzed egg then it should be allowed.

>

> Reeve said on his special

program on their site> that he could go right now to the UK and have this

> done, come home walking and be arrested for how he became cured. There is

> something very wrong in this whole scenerio. They are so close to how to

> make this work and could do so much good with this, it should be

> allowed...all of us, those with no thyroids, those that have been ablated

> through I-131 and those with thyroids gone haywire because of our immune

> systems would all have a chance if we can get this to pass!

> Jody

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