Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 A concern I have is Thimerosol, a mercury preservative used in the regular flu vaccine. Flumist does not have it, but will the injectable H1N1? I had not heard about it until a D.O. pediatric specialist mentioned it and said the exposure levels at least for kids were over the recommended limits. I have seen one reaction after taking the regular flu shot recently, but don't know if it can be attributed directly to the shot. http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafe ty/UCM096228 Steve This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual (s) to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of The City of Azle or its policies. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please phone Steve Lemming (817)444-7108. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of knavarro141 Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 7:39 PM To: texasems-l Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences >>> Kenny, can you produce verifiable, reproducable research that has been done by an independent non-biased firm on the H1N1 vaccine that shows its safety and efficacy? <<< Since science only recently created the H1N1 vaccine, there has not been enough time for clinical trial results to be available. Most began in August. I think the rush to put a vaccine on the market is a legitimate concern. However, the companies are using the same manufacturing techniques, same equipment, and the same quality control methods as they use for the other flu strains. I suppose this gave regulators some peace of mind as they pondered the approval in the face of extreme (some might say hysterical) demand. The CDC (2009) reports that the safety of the H1N1 vaccine is similar to that of seasonal influenza vaccines. This could be a rubber stamp but there is a bit of science. In a recently published Australian study, 240 patients received either 15 or 30 micrograms of the H1N1 vaccine by intramuscular injection (Greenberg, et al., 2009). By 21 days post vaccination, 95% of the patients were immunogenic (efficacious) with discomfort, tenderness, or pain at the injection site reported by 46% of the patients and systemic complaints, such as a headache, reported by 45%. There were no reported deaths, serious adverse events (patient determined), or adverse events of special interest (neurologic, e.g., Guillain-Barre syndrome, immune system, and other disorders). The safety data reported in this study does not significantly vary from safety data reported from seasonal influenza vaccines conducted in a randomized controlled trial at Vanderbilt University. (Talbot, 2008). While it is true that the clinical research and development department of one of the companies that manufactures the H1N1 vaccine conducted the Greenburg trial, that fact does not automatically negate the results, although you are wise to be cautious. The methodology described in the paper appears sound and did not trigger any authenticity suspicions during the peer review at the New England Journal of Medicine. >>> Everything I have found has been done by the pharmaceutical company that has developed it for sale and distribution with basically a government rubber stamp on it. If that is the case, wouldn't that concern you just a little? <<< I am not concerned because there is not enough of the vaccine for me to have a shot (no pun intended). I am riding steerage on this ship. As for those at the top of the list, I agree with the CDC - safety appears to be similar to that of the seasonal vaccines. Kenny Navarro Dallas References Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). (2009). Update on influenza A (H1N1) 2009 monovalent vaccines. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, 58, 1100-1101. Greenberg, M. E., Lai, M. H., Hartel, G. F., Wichems, C. H., Gittleson, C., Bennet, J., Dawson, G., Hu, W., Leggio, C., Washington, D., & Basser, R. L. (2009). Response after one dose of a monovalent influenza A (H1N1) 2009 vaccine: Preliminary report. New England Journal of Medicine, [E-pub]. Retrieved October 10, 2009, from http://content.nejm.org/cgi/reprint/NEJMoa0907413.pdf?resourcetype=HWCIT Talbot, H. K., Keitel, W., Cate, T. R., Treanor, J., , J., Brady, R. C., Graham, I., Dekker, C. L., Ho, D., Winokur, P., Walter, E., Bennet, J., Formica, N., Hartel, G., Skeljo, M., & , K. M. (2008). Immunogenicity, safety and consistency of new trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine. Vaccine, 26, 4057-4061. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<< The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the choices made. In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to violate his or her own values. Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients. Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind of a child. Kenny Navarro Dallas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<< The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the choices made. In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to violate his or her own values. Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients. Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind of a child. Kenny Navarro Dallas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<< The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the choices made. In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to violate his or her own values. Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients. Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind of a child. Kenny Navarro Dallas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Well I can tell you that vaccines are not all that the government wants you to believe and there are consequences to TAKING them. For instance, I know personally know two children (now adults) that got the first of the MANDATED Hep B vaccines and within 10 days were both diagnosed with Type I diabetes. If you do any research on the web you will find that the government and the drug makers do not tell you the whole story so you can have INFORMED consent prior to taking them. Lee Choice and Consequences >>> I am a firm believer folks should have a choice, not be MANDATED to take them. <<< Jane, Folks DO have a choice. But with that choice are consequences. New York is not mandating that ALL EMS personnel get the vaccine, only those who work for hospital-based response services who chose to take care of patients. Any EMS provider can refuse to take the vaccine. The consequence is that they then cannot have access to patients. Kenny Navarro Dallas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Easy to state when you don't work in the field. Lee Re: Choice and Consequences >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<< The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the choices made. In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to violate his or her own values. Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients. Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind of a child. Kenny Navarro Dallas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 >>> Easy to state when you don't work in the field. <<< Correct, plus it has the added benefits of consistency in opinion and a reduction in allegations of hypocrisy. Kenny Navarro Dallas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a job. What a choice.... Jane Dinsmore To: texasems-l From: kenneth.navarro@... Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000 Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<< The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the choices made. In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to violate his or her own values. Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients. Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind of a child. Kenny Navarro Dallas _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a job. What a choice.... Jane Dinsmore To: texasems-l From: kenneth.navarro@... Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000 Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<< The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the choices made. In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to violate his or her own values. Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients. Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind of a child. Kenny Navarro Dallas _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a job. What a choice.... Jane Dinsmore To: texasems-l From: kenneth.navarro@... Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000 Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<< The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the choices made. In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to violate his or her own values. Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients. Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind of a child. Kenny Navarro Dallas _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 If you do any research on the web you will find that the government and the drug makers do not tell you the whole story so you can have INFORMED consent prior to taking them. Yet one more thing the government needs to do.? At a time where people can get more information than ever before in the history of man (both accurate and some not so much...) from the internet...we cry for the government to get us the information. After seeing the claims of new onset diabetes in children, I did my own Google search and found a TON of information.? The one I felt was most informative was an article on WebMD.? This all stemmed from a study done in Italy in the late 90's and published in 2000.? The physician who was quoted had no relationship with the original study or with any vaccine manufacturer.? His synopsis was that the study wasn't large enough to have great confidence in the results because of all the factors involved with Type I diabetes onset such as family history and the " epidemic " of childhood obesity.? I would encourage each and every person on the planet to ask for and READ the package insert for any vaccine or drug you are being recommended to take or your children are being recommended to get.? We had them available for the flu vaccines we just gave to over 1,000 people and we will have them for the H1N1 vaccine when we get that.? I repeatedly see all contraindications, side effects and complications listed...even those that are more rumor than fact...the package insert addresses them.? Just make sure you read them well and educate yourself....and if you feel strongly one way or the other, then make sure you proclaim it from the highest point you can find.? That is the beauty of this country. Dudley Choice and Consequences >>> I am a firm believer folks should have a choice, not be MANDATED to take them. <<< Jane, Folks DO have a choice. But with that choice are consequences. New York is not mandating that ALL EMS personnel get the vaccine, only those who work for hospital-based response services who chose to take care of patients. Any EMS provider can refuse to take the vaccine. The consequence is that they then cannot have access to patients. Kenny Navarro Dallas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 One more reason why the southern states population are BOOMING and the northern states are shrinking. Over burdensome governmental intervention and taxation pushes people away and fast. I think there are times where this becomes an issue and a good debate is how do you maintain a healthy workforce when you have a pandemic so that you have healthcare workers to take care of the sick if we can't keep the healthcare workers well? That is the rub...we can talk PPE and good hygiene, but if we have a method to help prevent the healthcare workers from contracting the disease...then when do we cross the line from choice to duty? Lets throw a supposition out there: Let's suppose this was more like the 1918 flu with a 50% fatality rate of those infected and we had a vaccine that had been tested and proven both safe and effective...so how does that change the picture? Especially if the government decides to quarantine those who are ill for 30 days. Now how do we make sure the 911 call will be answered? The hospital will be open and even further that groceries are available and water continues to flow out of the pipes and electricity flows from the outlets? This is a huge quandary in our country...where do we draw the line between individual freedom and societal effective measures to protect the greater good (Spock - " The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one " ). This isn't an easy question or answer. I do20agree, I think NY is over reacting here...but each and every state in the nation is having these same discussions about when and why you would pull a mandatory trigger. Here is one other way to view this: A flood is rising all around the town, EMS calls are coming in as fast as the phone can be answered...and you call all your other shifts back into work, MANDATORY RECALL....and 3 of your 24 medics get the message but decide to not come into work. What do you do with those three? It is their choice to come into work or not....and both of those choices have consequences. Enjoy your Sunday everyone. Dudley RE: Re: Choice and Consequences ell Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - ither you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds ike NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice hould be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a ob. What a choice.... Jane Dinsmore o: texasems-l rom: kenneth.navarro@... ate: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000 ubject: Re: Choice and Consequences >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about aking that vaccine. Back to where we started...20:) <<< The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO ave a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of he freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the hoices made. In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving ertain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while acilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was hat each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the ob. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to iolate his or her own values. Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side ffects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients. Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind f a child. Kenny Navarro allas ________________________________________________________________ otmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. ttp://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 One more reason why the southern states population are BOOMING and the northern states are shrinking. Over burdensome governmental intervention and taxation pushes people away and fast. I think there are times where this becomes an issue and a good debate is how do you maintain a healthy workforce when you have a pandemic so that you have healthcare workers to take care of the sick if we can't keep the healthcare workers well? That is the rub...we can talk PPE and good hygiene, but if we have a method to help prevent the healthcare workers from contracting the disease...then when do we cross the line from choice to duty? Lets throw a supposition out there: Let's suppose this was more like the 1918 flu with a 50% fatality rate of those infected and we had a vaccine that had been tested and proven both safe and effective...so how does that change the picture? Especially if the government decides to quarantine those who are ill for 30 days. Now how do we make sure the 911 call will be answered? The hospital will be open and even further that groceries are available and water continues to flow out of the pipes and electricity flows from the outlets? This is a huge quandary in our country...where do we draw the line between individual freedom and societal effective measures to protect the greater good (Spock - " The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one " ). This isn't an easy question or answer. I do20agree, I think NY is over reacting here...but each and every state in the nation is having these same discussions about when and why you would pull a mandatory trigger. Here is one other way to view this: A flood is rising all around the town, EMS calls are coming in as fast as the phone can be answered...and you call all your other shifts back into work, MANDATORY RECALL....and 3 of your 24 medics get the message but decide to not come into work. What do you do with those three? It is their choice to come into work or not....and both of those choices have consequences. Enjoy your Sunday everyone. Dudley RE: Re: Choice and Consequences ell Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - ither you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds ike NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice hould be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a ob. What a choice.... Jane Dinsmore o: texasems-l rom: kenneth.navarro@... ate: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000 ubject: Re: Choice and Consequences >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about aking that vaccine. Back to where we started...20:) <<< The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO ave a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of he freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the hoices made. In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving ertain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while acilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was hat each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the ob. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to iolate his or her own values. Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side ffects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients. Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind f a child. Kenny Navarro allas ________________________________________________________________ otmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. ttp://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 One more reason why the southern states population are BOOMING and the northern states are shrinking. Over burdensome governmental intervention and taxation pushes people away and fast. I think there are times where this becomes an issue and a good debate is how do you maintain a healthy workforce when you have a pandemic so that you have healthcare workers to take care of the sick if we can't keep the healthcare workers well? That is the rub...we can talk PPE and good hygiene, but if we have a method to help prevent the healthcare workers from contracting the disease...then when do we cross the line from choice to duty? Lets throw a supposition out there: Let's suppose this was more like the 1918 flu with a 50% fatality rate of those infected and we had a vaccine that had been tested and proven both safe and effective...so how does that change the picture? Especially if the government decides to quarantine those who are ill for 30 days. Now how do we make sure the 911 call will be answered? The hospital will be open and even further that groceries are available and water continues to flow out of the pipes and electricity flows from the outlets? This is a huge quandary in our country...where do we draw the line between individual freedom and societal effective measures to protect the greater good (Spock - " The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one " ). This isn't an easy question or answer. I do20agree, I think NY is over reacting here...but each and every state in the nation is having these same discussions about when and why you would pull a mandatory trigger. Here is one other way to view this: A flood is rising all around the town, EMS calls are coming in as fast as the phone can be answered...and you call all your other shifts back into work, MANDATORY RECALL....and 3 of your 24 medics get the message but decide to not come into work. What do you do with those three? It is their choice to come into work or not....and both of those choices have consequences. Enjoy your Sunday everyone. Dudley RE: Re: Choice and Consequences ell Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - ither you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds ike NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice hould be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a ob. What a choice.... Jane Dinsmore o: texasems-l rom: kenneth.navarro@... ate: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000 ubject: Re: Choice and Consequences >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about aking that vaccine. Back to where we started...20:) <<< The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO ave a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of he freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the hoices made. In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving ertain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while acilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was hat each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the ob. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to iolate his or her own values. Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side ffects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients. Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind f a child. Kenny Navarro allas ________________________________________________________________ otmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. ttp://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Jane, I agree. Perhaps offer the vaccine but if you say no, then if you have a fever or other symptoms you are sent home w/o pay. At least you actually have some choice that way. Knowing it will cost you a job saying no is being held hostage. Heck it is almost as bad as telling a person they can only keep a job by having sex with the boss. Again you get no real choice. You either compromise your beliefs or you have no pay check, how is that a choice? Renny > > > Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a job. What a choice.... > > > > Jane Dinsmore > > > > To: texasems-l > From: kenneth.navarro@... > Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000 > Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences > > > > > > >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<< > > The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the choices made. > > In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to violate his or her own values. > > Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients. > > Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind of a child. > > Kenny Navarro > Dallas > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Jane, I agree. Perhaps offer the vaccine but if you say no, then if you have a fever or other symptoms you are sent home w/o pay. At least you actually have some choice that way. Knowing it will cost you a job saying no is being held hostage. Heck it is almost as bad as telling a person they can only keep a job by having sex with the boss. Again you get no real choice. You either compromise your beliefs or you have no pay check, how is that a choice? Renny > > > Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a job. What a choice.... > > > > Jane Dinsmore > > > > To: texasems-l > From: kenneth.navarro@... > Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000 > Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences > > > > > > >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<< > > The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the choices made. > > In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to violate his or her own values. > > Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients. > > Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind of a child. > > Kenny Navarro > Dallas > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Jane, I agree. Perhaps offer the vaccine but if you say no, then if you have a fever or other symptoms you are sent home w/o pay. At least you actually have some choice that way. Knowing it will cost you a job saying no is being held hostage. Heck it is almost as bad as telling a person they can only keep a job by having sex with the boss. Again you get no real choice. You either compromise your beliefs or you have no pay check, how is that a choice? Renny > > > Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a job. What a choice.... > > > > Jane Dinsmore > > > > To: texasems-l > From: kenneth.navarro@... > Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000 > Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences > > > > > > >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<< > > The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the choices made. > > In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to violate his or her own values. > > Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients. > > Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind of a child. > > Kenny Navarro > Dallas > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 >>> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. <<< I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong. I am merely saying it is, by definition, a choice. I'm OK with the fact that we disagree. My ego does not require everyone to think like I do. They can all be wrong if they choose (kidding). >>> The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " . . . <<< That can never be the choice, because one can never know which individual will suffer serious consequences from a vaccine. The choice must be " risk the side effects of vaccination or loose the ability to have access to patients (in that jurisdiction) " . Kenny Navarro Dallas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 >>> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. <<< I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong. I am merely saying it is, by definition, a choice. I'm OK with the fact that we disagree. My ego does not require everyone to think like I do. They can all be wrong if they choose (kidding). >>> The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " . . . <<< That can never be the choice, because one can never know which individual will suffer serious consequences from a vaccine. The choice must be " risk the side effects of vaccination or loose the ability to have access to patients (in that jurisdiction) " . Kenny Navarro Dallas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 >>> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. <<< I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong. I am merely saying it is, by definition, a choice. I'm OK with the fact that we disagree. My ego does not require everyone to think like I do. They can all be wrong if they choose (kidding). >>> The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " . . . <<< That can never be the choice, because one can never know which individual will suffer serious consequences from a vaccine. The choice must be " risk the side effects of vaccination or loose the ability to have access to patients (in that jurisdiction) " . Kenny Navarro Dallas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Sorry, I am with Renny on this one. Jane Dinsmore To: texasems-l From: kenneth.navarro@... Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:07:33 +0000 Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences >>> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. <<< I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong. I am merely saying it is, by definition, a choice. I'm OK with the fact that we disagree. My ego does not require everyone to think like I do. They can all be wrong if they choose (kidding). >>> The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " . . . <<< That can never be the choice, because one can never know which individual will suffer serious consequences from a vaccine. The choice must be " risk the side effects of vaccination or loose the ability to have access to patients (in that jurisdiction) " . Kenny Navarro Dallas _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Sorry, I am with Renny on this one. Jane Dinsmore To: texasems-l From: kenneth.navarro@... Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:07:33 +0000 Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences >>> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. <<< I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong. I am merely saying it is, by definition, a choice. I'm OK with the fact that we disagree. My ego does not require everyone to think like I do. They can all be wrong if they choose (kidding). >>> The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " . . . <<< That can never be the choice, because one can never know which individual will suffer serious consequences from a vaccine. The choice must be " risk the side effects of vaccination or loose the ability to have access to patients (in that jurisdiction) " . Kenny Navarro Dallas _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Sorry, I am with Renny on this one. Jane Dinsmore To: texasems-l From: kenneth.navarro@... Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:07:33 +0000 Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences >>> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. <<< I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong. I am merely saying it is, by definition, a choice. I'm OK with the fact that we disagree. My ego does not require everyone to think like I do. They can all be wrong if they choose (kidding). >>> The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " . . . <<< That can never be the choice, because one can never know which individual will suffer serious consequences from a vaccine. The choice must be " risk the side effects of vaccination or loose the ability to have access to patients (in that jurisdiction) " . Kenny Navarro Dallas _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Dudley, you and I are usually on the opposite sides of the fence on issues but I think the earth just shook because you couldn't have stated this any better, and I agree. And after reading that package insert, you should have the choice over your OWN body to refuse, and that choice shouldn't be affected by coercion by government, employers, etc. as is evidenced in the " do you want to lose your job " type of " choice " . For immunizations, I don't think money to PAY for the immunization should ever be an issue either- for instance, " I want the shot but I can't afford to pay for it. " I have more than one friend right now with no insurance who can't afford to take off work to sit for hours in line at the local health department and doesn't have the $15 or $20 on top of that to pay for certain immunizations, like the flu shot. But at the same time, threatening to remove someone's source of income if they DON'T take the shot is just wrong when the disease is not potentially life-threatening in most cases and becomes so only for an extremely small segment of the population - a segment that may be as small or smaller than the potential nasty side effects of the vaccine in a short term or better yet, potentially long term view, which is as yet unknown. I do believe that some immunizations are absolutely necessary such as the days of fighting smallpox and other current immunizations that we give our children to keep them from developing potentially life-threatening diseases such as diptheria, pertussis, and polio. However, H1N1 doesn't fall into those categories. However, I also think that our government has failed to protect us too in not forcing the pharamceutical companies to do a better job of testing vaccines and in not making them develop vaccines without known toxic adjuvants. There are enough red flags that have been raised out there over this one issue that more investigation should be done to either prove or disprove them. And if those red flags have merit, then something should be done about those issues. But most times the red flags are ignored because of the EXPENSE of fixing the problem if they are found to be real. Sometimes " the cure CAN be worse than the disease " - not always, but sometimes..... Again, just my addled brain on a Sunday morning. It IS Sunday, right???? LOL Jane Dinsmore To: texasems-l From: THEDUDMAN@... Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 12:31:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences If you do any research on the web you will find that the government and the drug makers do not tell you the whole story so you can have INFORMED consent prior to taking them. Yet one more thing the government needs to do.? At a time where people can get more information than ever before in the history of man (both accurate and some not so much...) from the internet...we cry for the government to get us the information. After seeing the claims of new onset diabetes in children, I did my own Google search and found a TON of information.? The one I felt was most informative was an article on WebMD.? This all stemmed from a study done in Italy in the late 90's and published in 2000.? The physician who was quoted had no relationship with the original study or with any vaccine manufacturer.? His synopsis was that the study wasn't large enough to have great confidence in the results because of all the factors involved with Type I diabetes onset such as family history and the " epidemic " of childhood obesity.? I would encourage each and every person on the planet to ask for and READ the package insert for any vaccine or drug you are being recommended to take or your children are being recommended to get.? We had them available for the flu vaccines we just gave to over 1,000 people and we will have them for the H1N1 vaccine when we get that.? I repeatedly see all contraindications, side effects and complications listed...even those that are more rumor than fact...the package insert addresses them.? Just make sure you read them well and educate yourself....and if you feel strongly one way or the other, then make sure you proclaim it from the highest point you can find.? That is the beauty of this country. Dudley Choice and Consequences >>> I am a firm believer folks should have a choice, not be MANDATED to take them. <<< Jane, Folks DO have a choice. But with that choice are consequences. New York is not mandating that ALL EMS personnel get the vaccine, only those who work for hospital-based response services who chose to take care of patients. Any EMS provider can refuse to take the vaccine. The consequence is that they then cannot have access to patients. Kenny Navarro Dallas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Dudley, I think if we were talking a disease with that sort of mortality rate as you mentioned, this discussion would be TOTALLY different. Jane Dinsmore To: texasems-l From: THEDUDMAN@... Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 12:43:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: Choice and Consequences One more reason why the southern states population are BOOMING and the northern states are shrinking. Over burdensome governmental intervention and taxation pushes people away and fast. I think there are times where this becomes an issue and a good debate is how do you maintain a healthy workforce when you have a pandemic so that you have healthcare workers to take care of the sick if we can't keep the healthcare workers well? That is the rub...we can talk PPE and good hygiene, but if we have a method to help prevent the healthcare workers from contracting the disease...then when do we cross the line from choice to duty? Lets throw a supposition out there: Let's suppose this was more like the 1918 flu with a 50% fatality rate of those infected and we had a vaccine that had been tested and proven both safe and effective...so how does that change the picture? Especially if the government decides to quarantine those who are ill for 30 days. Now how do we make sure the 911 call will be answered? The hospital will be open and even further that groceries are available and water continues to flow out of the pipes and electricity flows from the outlets? This is a huge quandary in our country...where do we draw the line between individual freedom and societal effective measures to protect the greater good (Spock - " The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one " ). This isn't an easy question or answer. I do20agree, I think NY is over reacting here...but each and every state in the nation is having these same discussions about when and why you would pull a mandatory trigger. Here is one other way to view this: A flood is rising all around the town, EMS calls are coming in as fast as the phone can be answered...and you call all your other shifts back into work, MANDATORY RECALL....and 3 of your 24 medics get the message but decide to not come into work. What do you do with those three? It is their choice to come into work or not....and both of those choices have consequences. Enjoy your Sunday everyone. Dudley RE: Re: Choice and Consequences ell Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " - ither you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds ike NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice hould be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a ob. What a choice.... Jane Dinsmore o: texasems-l rom: kenneth.navarro@... ate: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000 ubject: Re: Choice and Consequences >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about aking that vaccine. Back to where we started...20:) <<< The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO ave a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of he freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the hoices made. In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving ertain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while acilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was hat each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the ob. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to iolate his or her own values. Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side ffects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients. Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind f a child. Kenny Navarro allas __________________________________________________________ otmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. ttp://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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