RE: Choice and Consequences

[Guest guest]

A concern I have is Thimerosol, a mercury preservative used in the

regular flu vaccine. Flumist does not have it, but will the injectable

H1N1? I had not heard about it until a D.O. pediatric specialist

mentioned it and said the exposure levels at least for kids were over

the recommended limits.

I have seen one reaction after taking the regular flu shot recently, but

don't know if it can be attributed directly to the shot.

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafe

ty/UCM096228

Steve

This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the

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From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of knavarro141

Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 7:39 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>>> Kenny, can you produce verifiable, reproducable research that has

been done by an independent non-biased firm on the H1N1 vaccine that

shows its safety and efficacy? <<<

Since science only recently created the H1N1 vaccine, there has not been

enough time for clinical trial results to be available. Most began in

August.

I think the rush to put a vaccine on the market is a legitimate concern.

However, the companies are using the same manufacturing techniques, same

equipment, and the same quality control methods as they use for the

other flu strains. I suppose this gave regulators some peace of mind as

they pondered the approval in the face of extreme (some might say

hysterical) demand.

The CDC (2009) reports that the safety of the H1N1 vaccine is similar to

that of seasonal influenza vaccines. This could be a rubber stamp but

there is a bit of science.

In a recently published Australian study, 240 patients received either

15 or 30 micrograms of the H1N1 vaccine by intramuscular injection

(Greenberg, et al., 2009). By 21 days post vaccination, 95% of the

patients were immunogenic (efficacious) with discomfort, tenderness, or

pain at the injection site reported by 46% of the patients and systemic

complaints, such as a headache, reported by 45%. There were no reported

deaths, serious adverse events (patient determined), or adverse events

of special interest (neurologic, e.g., Guillain-Barre syndrome, immune

system, and other disorders). The safety data reported in this study

does not significantly vary from safety data reported from seasonal

influenza vaccines conducted in a randomized controlled trial at

Vanderbilt University. (Talbot, 2008).

While it is true that the clinical research and development department

of one of the companies that manufactures the H1N1 vaccine conducted the

Greenburg trial, that fact does not automatically negate the results,

although you are wise to be cautious. The methodology described in the

paper appears sound and did not trigger any authenticity suspicions

during the peer review at the New England Journal of Medicine.

>>> Everything I have found has been done by the pharmaceutical company

that has developed it for sale and distribution with basically a

government

rubber stamp on it. If that is the case, wouldn't that concern you just

a

little? <<<

I am not concerned because there is not enough of the vaccine for me to

have a shot (no pun intended). I am riding steerage on this ship.

As for those at the top of the list, I agree with the CDC - safety

appears to be similar to that of the seasonal vaccines.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

References

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). (2009). Update on

influenza A (H1N1) 2009 monovalent vaccines. Morbidity and Mortality

Weekly Report, 58, 1100-1101.

Greenberg, M. E., Lai, M. H., Hartel, G. F., Wichems, C. H., Gittleson,

C., Bennet, J., Dawson, G., Hu, W., Leggio, C., Washington, D., &

Basser, R. L. (2009). Response after one dose of a monovalent influenza

A (H1N1) 2009 vaccine: Preliminary report. New England Journal of

Medicine, [E-pub]. Retrieved October 10, 2009, from

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/reprint/NEJMoa0907413.pdf?resourcetype=HWCIT

Talbot, H. K., Keitel, W., Cate, T. R., Treanor, J., , J.,

Brady, R. C., Graham, I., Dekker, C. L., Ho, D., Winokur, P., Walter,

E., Bennet, J., Formica, N., Hartel, G., Skeljo, M., & , K. M.

(2008). Immunogenicity, safety and consistency of new trivalent

inactivated influenza vaccine. Vaccine, 26, 4057-4061.

[Guest guest]

>>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<<

The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO

have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part

of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

choices made.

In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations

was that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing

the job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had

to violate his or her own values.

Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

of a child.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

[Guest guest]

>>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<<

The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO

have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part

of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

choices made.

In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations

was that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing

the job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had

to violate his or her own values.

Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

of a child.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

[Guest guest]

>>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<<

The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO

have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part

of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

choices made.

In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations

was that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing

the job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had

to violate his or her own values.

Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

of a child.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

[Guest guest]

Well I can tell you that vaccines are not all that the government wants you to

believe and there are consequences to TAKING them. For instance, I know

personally know two children (now adults) that got the first of the MANDATED Hep

B vaccines and within 10 days were both diagnosed with Type I diabetes. If you

do any research on the web you will find that the government and the drug makers

do not tell you the whole story so you can have INFORMED consent prior to taking

them.

Lee

Choice and Consequences

>>> I am a firm believer folks should have a choice, not be MANDATED to take

them. <<<

Jane,

Folks DO have a choice. But with that choice are consequences. New York is not

mandating that ALL EMS personnel get the vaccine, only those who work for

hospital-based response services who chose to take care of patients.

Any EMS provider can refuse to take the vaccine. The consequence is that they

then cannot have access to patients.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

[Guest guest]

Easy to state when you don't work in the field.

Lee

Re: Choice and Consequences

>>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<<

The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO

have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of

the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

choices made.

In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was

that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the

job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to

violate his or her own values.

Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

of a child.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

[Guest guest]

>>> Easy to state when you don't work in the field. <<<

Correct, plus it has the added benefits of consistency in opinion and a

reduction in allegations of hypocrisy.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

[Guest guest]

Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice

should be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a

job. What a choice....

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l

From: kenneth.navarro@...

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000

Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<<

The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO

have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of

the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

choices made.

In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was

that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the

job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to

violate his or her own values.

Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

of a child.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

_________________________________________________________________

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice

should be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a

job. What a choice....

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l

From: kenneth.navarro@...

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000

Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<<

The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO

have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of

the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

choices made.

In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was

that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the

job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to

violate his or her own values.

Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

of a child.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

_________________________________________________________________

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice

should be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a

job. What a choice....

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l

From: kenneth.navarro@...

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000

Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<<

The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO

have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of

the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

choices made.

In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was

that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the

job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to

violate his or her own values.

Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

of a child.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

_________________________________________________________________

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

If you do any research on the web you will find that the government and the drug

makers do not tell you the whole story so you can have INFORMED consent prior to

taking them.

Yet one more thing the government needs to do.? At a time where people can get

more information than ever before in the history of man (both accurate and some

not so much...) from the internet...we cry for the government to get us the

information.

After seeing the claims of new onset diabetes in children, I did my own Google

search and found a TON of information.? The one I felt was most informative was

an article on WebMD.? This all stemmed from a study done in Italy in the late

90's and published in 2000.? The physician who was quoted had no relationship

with the original study or with any vaccine manufacturer.? His synopsis was that

the study wasn't large enough to have great confidence in the results because of

all the factors involved with Type I diabetes onset such as family history and

the " epidemic " of childhood obesity.?

I would encourage each and every person on the planet to ask for and READ the

package insert for any vaccine or drug you are being recommended to take or your

children are being recommended to get.? We had them available for the flu

vaccines we just gave to over 1,000 people and we will have them for the H1N1

vaccine when we get that.? I repeatedly see all contraindications, side effects

and complications listed...even those that are more rumor than fact...the

package insert addresses them.?

Just make sure you read them well and educate yourself....and if you feel

strongly one way or the other, then make sure you proclaim it from the highest

point you can find.? That is the beauty of this country.

Dudley

Choice and Consequences

>>> I am a firm believer folks should have a choice, not be MANDATED to take

them. <<<

Jane,

Folks DO have a choice. But with that choice are consequences. New York is not

mandating that ALL EMS personnel get the vaccine, only those who work for

hospital-based response services who chose to take care of patients.

Any EMS provider can refuse to take the vaccine. The consequence is that they

then cannot have access to patients.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

[Guest guest]

One more reason why the southern states population are BOOMING and the northern

states are shrinking.  Over burdensome governmental intervention and taxation

pushes people away and fast. 

I think there are times where this becomes an issue and a good debate is how do

you maintain a healthy workforce when you have a pandemic so that you have

healthcare workers to take care of the sick if we can't keep the healthcare

workers well?  That is the rub...we can talk PPE and good hygiene, but if we

have a method to help prevent the healthcare workers from contracting the

disease...then when do we cross the line from choice to duty?

Lets throw a supposition out there:  Let's suppose this was more like the 1918

flu with a 50% fatality rate of those infected and we had a vaccine that had

been tested and proven both safe and effective...so how does that change the

picture?  Especially if the government decides to quarantine those who are ill

for 30 days.  Now how do we make sure the 911 call will be answered?  The

hospital will be open and even further that groceries are available and water

continues to flow out of the pipes and electricity flows from the outlets? 

This is a huge quandary in our country...where do we draw the line between

individual freedom and societal effective measures to protect the greater good

(Spock - " The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one " ). 

This isn't an easy question or answer.  I do20agree, I think NY is over

reacting here...but each and every state in the nation is having these same

discussions about when and why you would pull a mandatory trigger. 

Here is one other way to view this:  A flood is rising all around the town, EMS

calls are coming in as fast as the phone can be answered...and you call all your

other shifts back into work, MANDATORY RECALL....and 3 of your 24 medics get the

message but decide to not come into work.  What do you do with those three? 

It is their choice to come into work or not....and both of those choices have

consequences.

Enjoy your Sunday everyone.

Dudley

RE: Re: Choice and Consequences

ell Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

ither you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

ike NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice

hould be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a

ob. What a choice....

Jane Dinsmore

o: texasems-l

rom: kenneth.navarro@...

ate: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000

ubject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

aking that vaccine. Back to where we started...20:) <<<

The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO

ave a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of

he freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

hoices made.

In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

ertain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

acilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was

hat each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the

ob. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to

iolate his or her own values.

Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

ffects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

f a child.

Kenny Navarro

allas

________________________________________________________________

otmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.

ttp://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

One more reason why the southern states population are BOOMING and the northern

states are shrinking.  Over burdensome governmental intervention and taxation

pushes people away and fast. 

I think there are times where this becomes an issue and a good debate is how do

you maintain a healthy workforce when you have a pandemic so that you have

healthcare workers to take care of the sick if we can't keep the healthcare

workers well?  That is the rub...we can talk PPE and good hygiene, but if we

have a method to help prevent the healthcare workers from contracting the

disease...then when do we cross the line from choice to duty?

Lets throw a supposition out there:  Let's suppose this was more like the 1918

flu with a 50% fatality rate of those infected and we had a vaccine that had

been tested and proven both safe and effective...so how does that change the

picture?  Especially if the government decides to quarantine those who are ill

for 30 days.  Now how do we make sure the 911 call will be answered?  The

hospital will be open and even further that groceries are available and water

continues to flow out of the pipes and electricity flows from the outlets? 

This is a huge quandary in our country...where do we draw the line between

individual freedom and societal effective measures to protect the greater good

(Spock - " The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one " ). 

This isn't an easy question or answer.  I do20agree, I think NY is over

reacting here...but each and every state in the nation is having these same

discussions about when and why you would pull a mandatory trigger. 

Here is one other way to view this:  A flood is rising all around the town, EMS

calls are coming in as fast as the phone can be answered...and you call all your

other shifts back into work, MANDATORY RECALL....and 3 of your 24 medics get the

message but decide to not come into work.  What do you do with those three? 

It is their choice to come into work or not....and both of those choices have

consequences.

Enjoy your Sunday everyone.

Dudley

RE: Re: Choice and Consequences

ell Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

ither you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

ike NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice

hould be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a

ob. What a choice....

Jane Dinsmore

o: texasems-l

rom: kenneth.navarro@...

ate: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000

ubject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

aking that vaccine. Back to where we started...20:) <<<

The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO

ave a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of

he freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

hoices made.

In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

ertain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

acilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was

hat each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the

ob. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to

iolate his or her own values.

Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

ffects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

f a child.

Kenny Navarro

allas

________________________________________________________________

otmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.

ttp://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

One more reason why the southern states population are BOOMING and the northern

states are shrinking.  Over burdensome governmental intervention and taxation

pushes people away and fast. 

I think there are times where this becomes an issue and a good debate is how do

you maintain a healthy workforce when you have a pandemic so that you have

healthcare workers to take care of the sick if we can't keep the healthcare

workers well?  That is the rub...we can talk PPE and good hygiene, but if we

have a method to help prevent the healthcare workers from contracting the

disease...then when do we cross the line from choice to duty?

Lets throw a supposition out there:  Let's suppose this was more like the 1918

flu with a 50% fatality rate of those infected and we had a vaccine that had

been tested and proven both safe and effective...so how does that change the

picture?  Especially if the government decides to quarantine those who are ill

for 30 days.  Now how do we make sure the 911 call will be answered?  The

hospital will be open and even further that groceries are available and water

continues to flow out of the pipes and electricity flows from the outlets? 

This is a huge quandary in our country...where do we draw the line between

individual freedom and societal effective measures to protect the greater good

(Spock - " The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one " ). 

This isn't an easy question or answer.  I do20agree, I think NY is over

reacting here...but each and every state in the nation is having these same

discussions about when and why you would pull a mandatory trigger. 

Here is one other way to view this:  A flood is rising all around the town, EMS

calls are coming in as fast as the phone can be answered...and you call all your

other shifts back into work, MANDATORY RECALL....and 3 of your 24 medics get the

message but decide to not come into work.  What do you do with those three? 

It is their choice to come into work or not....and both of those choices have

consequences.

Enjoy your Sunday everyone.

Dudley

RE: Re: Choice and Consequences

ell Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

ither you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

ike NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice

hould be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a

ob. What a choice....

Jane Dinsmore

o: texasems-l

rom: kenneth.navarro@...

ate: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000

ubject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

aking that vaccine. Back to where we started...20:) <<<

The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO

ave a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of

he freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

hoices made.

In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

ertain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

acilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was

hat each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the

ob. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to

iolate his or her own values.

Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

ffects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

f a child.

Kenny Navarro

allas

________________________________________________________________

otmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.

ttp://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Jane, I agree. Perhaps offer the vaccine but if you say no, then if you have a

fever or other symptoms you are sent home w/o pay. At least you actually have

some choice that way. Knowing it will cost you a job saying no is being held

hostage. Heck it is almost as bad as telling a person they can only keep a job

by having sex with the boss. Again you get no real choice. You either

compromise your beliefs or you have no pay check, how is that a choice?

Renny

>

>

> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice

should be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a

job. What a choice....

>

>

>

> Jane Dinsmore

>

>

>

> To: texasems-l

> From: kenneth.navarro@...

> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000

> Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>

>

>

>

>

> >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<<

>

> The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks

DO have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part

of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

choices made.

>

> In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was

that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the

job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to

violate his or her own values.

>

> Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

>

> Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

of a child.

>

> Kenny Navarro

> Dallas

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.

> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jane, I agree. Perhaps offer the vaccine but if you say no, then if you have a

fever or other symptoms you are sent home w/o pay. At least you actually have

some choice that way. Knowing it will cost you a job saying no is being held

hostage. Heck it is almost as bad as telling a person they can only keep a job

by having sex with the boss. Again you get no real choice. You either

compromise your beliefs or you have no pay check, how is that a choice?

Renny

>

>

> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice

should be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a

job. What a choice....

>

>

>

> Jane Dinsmore

>

>

>

> To: texasems-l

> From: kenneth.navarro@...

> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000

> Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>

>

>

>

>

> >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<<

>

> The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks

DO have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part

of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

choices made.

>

> In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was

that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the

job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to

violate his or her own values.

>

> Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

>

> Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

of a child.

>

> Kenny Navarro

> Dallas

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.

> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jane, I agree. Perhaps offer the vaccine but if you say no, then if you have a

fever or other symptoms you are sent home w/o pay. At least you actually have

some choice that way. Knowing it will cost you a job saying no is being held

hostage. Heck it is almost as bad as telling a person they can only keep a job

by having sex with the boss. Again you get no real choice. You either

compromise your beliefs or you have no pay check, how is that a choice?

Renny

>

>

> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice

should be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a

job. What a choice....

>

>

>

> Jane Dinsmore

>

>

>

> To: texasems-l

> From: kenneth.navarro@...

> Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000

> Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>

>

>

>

>

> >>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

taking that vaccine. Back to where we started... <<<

>

> The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks

DO have a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part

of the freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

choices made.

>

> In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

certain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

facilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was

that each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the

job. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to

violate his or her own values.

>

> Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

effects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

>

> Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

of a child.

>

> Kenny Navarro

> Dallas

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.

> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. <<<

I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong. I am merely saying it is, by

definition, a choice.

I'm OK with the fact that we disagree. My ego does not require everyone to

think like I do. They can all be wrong if they choose (kidding).

>>> The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " . . . <<<

That can never be the choice, because one can never know which individual will

suffer serious consequences from a vaccine. The choice must be " risk the side

effects of vaccination or loose the ability to have access to patients (in that

jurisdiction) " .

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

[Guest guest]

>>> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. <<<

I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong. I am merely saying it is, by

definition, a choice.

I'm OK with the fact that we disagree. My ego does not require everyone to

think like I do. They can all be wrong if they choose (kidding).

>>> The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " . . . <<<

That can never be the choice, because one can never know which individual will

suffer serious consequences from a vaccine. The choice must be " risk the side

effects of vaccination or loose the ability to have access to patients (in that

jurisdiction) " .

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

[Guest guest]

>>> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. <<<

I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong. I am merely saying it is, by

definition, a choice.

I'm OK with the fact that we disagree. My ego does not require everyone to

think like I do. They can all be wrong if they choose (kidding).

>>> The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " . . . <<<

That can never be the choice, because one can never know which individual will

suffer serious consequences from a vaccine. The choice must be " risk the side

effects of vaccination or loose the ability to have access to patients (in that

jurisdiction) " .

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

[Guest guest]

Sorry, I am with Renny on this one.

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l

From: kenneth.navarro@...

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:07:33 +0000

Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>>> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. <<<

I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong. I am merely saying it is, by

definition, a choice.

I'm OK with the fact that we disagree. My ego does not require everyone to think

like I do. They can all be wrong if they choose (kidding).

>>> The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " . . . <<<

That can never be the choice, because one can never know which individual will

suffer serious consequences from a vaccine. The choice must be " risk the side

effects of vaccination or loose the ability to have access to patients (in that

jurisdiction) " .

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

_________________________________________________________________

Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Sorry, I am with Renny on this one.

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l

From: kenneth.navarro@...

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:07:33 +0000

Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>>> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. <<<

I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong. I am merely saying it is, by

definition, a choice.

I'm OK with the fact that we disagree. My ego does not require everyone to think

like I do. They can all be wrong if they choose (kidding).

>>> The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " . . . <<<

That can never be the choice, because one can never know which individual will

suffer serious consequences from a vaccine. The choice must be " risk the side

effects of vaccination or loose the ability to have access to patients (in that

jurisdiction) " .

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

_________________________________________________________________

Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Sorry, I am with Renny on this one.

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l

From: kenneth.navarro@...

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:07:33 +0000

Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>>> Well Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

either you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

like NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. <<<

I am not arguing whether it is right or wrong. I am merely saying it is, by

definition, a choice.

I'm OK with the fact that we disagree. My ego does not require everyone to think

like I do. They can all be wrong if they choose (kidding).

>>> The choice should be " to be sick or not to be sick " . . . <<<

That can never be the choice, because one can never know which individual will

suffer serious consequences from a vaccine. The choice must be " risk the side

effects of vaccination or loose the ability to have access to patients (in that

jurisdiction) " .

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

_________________________________________________________________

Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Dudley, you and I are usually on the opposite sides of the fence on issues but I

think the earth just shook because you couldn't have stated this any better, and

I agree. And after reading that package insert, you should have the choice

over your OWN body to refuse, and that choice shouldn't be affected by coercion

by government, employers, etc. as is evidenced in the " do you want to lose your

job " type of " choice " .

For immunizations, I don't think money to PAY for the immunization should ever

be an issue either- for instance, " I want the shot but I can't afford to pay for

it. " I have more than one friend right now with no insurance who can't afford

to take off work to sit for hours in line at the local health department and

doesn't have the $15 or $20 on top of that to pay for certain immunizations,

like the flu shot. But at the same time, threatening to remove someone's source

of income if they DON'T take the shot is just wrong when the disease is not

potentially life-threatening in most cases and becomes so only for an extremely

small segment of the population - a segment that may be as small or smaller than

the potential nasty side effects of the vaccine in a short term or better yet,

potentially long term view, which is as yet unknown.

I do believe that some immunizations are absolutely necessary such as the days

of fighting smallpox and other current immunizations that we give our children

to keep them from developing potentially life-threatening diseases such as

diptheria, pertussis, and polio. However, H1N1 doesn't fall into those

categories. However, I also think that our government has failed to protect us

too in not forcing the pharamceutical companies to do a better job of testing

vaccines and in not making them develop vaccines without known toxic adjuvants.

There are enough red flags that have been raised out there over this one issue

that more investigation should be done to either prove or disprove them. And if

those red flags have merit, then something should be done about those issues.

But most times the red flags are ignored because of the EXPENSE of fixing the

problem if they are found to be real. Sometimes " the cure CAN be worse than the

disease " - not always, but sometimes.....

Again, just my addled brain on a Sunday morning. It IS Sunday, right???? LOL

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l

From: THEDUDMAN@...

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 12:31:49 -0400

Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences

If you do any research on the web you will find that the government and the drug

makers do not tell you the whole story so you can have INFORMED consent prior to

taking them.

Yet one more thing the government needs to do.? At a time where people can get

more information than ever before in the history of man (both accurate and some

not so much...) from the internet...we cry for the government to get us the

information.

After seeing the claims of new onset diabetes in children, I did my own Google

search and found a TON of information.? The one I felt was most informative was

an article on WebMD.? This all stemmed from a study done in Italy in the late

90's and published in 2000.? The physician who was quoted had no relationship

with the original study or with any vaccine manufacturer.? His synopsis was that

the study wasn't large enough to have great confidence in the results because of

all the factors involved with Type I diabetes onset such as family history and

the " epidemic " of childhood obesity.?

I would encourage each and every person on the planet to ask for and READ the

package insert for any vaccine or drug you are being recommended to take or your

children are being recommended to get.? We had them available for the flu

vaccines we just gave to over 1,000 people and we will have them for the H1N1

vaccine when we get that.? I repeatedly see all contraindications, side effects

and complications listed...even those that are more rumor than fact...the

package insert addresses them.?

Just make sure you read them well and educate yourself....and if you feel

strongly one way or the other, then make sure you proclaim it from the highest

point you can find.? That is the beauty of this country.

Dudley

Choice and Consequences

>>> I am a firm believer folks should have a choice, not be MANDATED to take

them. <<<

Jane,

Folks DO have a choice. But with that choice are consequences. New York is not

mandating that ALL EMS personnel get the vaccine, only those who work for

hospital-based response services who chose to take care of patients.

Any EMS provider can refuse to take the vaccine. The consequence is that they

then cannot have access to patients.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

[Guest guest]

Dudley, I think if we were talking a disease with that sort of mortality rate as

you mentioned, this discussion would be TOTALLY different.

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l

From: THEDUDMAN@...

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 12:43:41 -0400

Subject: Re: Re: Choice and Consequences

One more reason why the southern states population are BOOMING and the northern

states are shrinking. Over burdensome governmental intervention and taxation

pushes people away and fast.

I think there are times where this becomes an issue and a good debate is how do

you maintain a healthy workforce when you have a pandemic so that you have

healthcare workers to take care of the sick if we can't keep the healthcare

workers well? That is the rub...we can talk PPE and good hygiene, but if we

have a method to help prevent the healthcare workers from contracting the

disease...then when do we cross the line from choice to duty?

Lets throw a supposition out there: Let's suppose this was more like the 1918

flu with a 50% fatality rate of those infected and we had a vaccine that had

been tested and proven both safe and effective...so how does that change the

picture? Especially if the government decides to quarantine those who are ill

for 30 days. Now how do we make sure the 911 call will be answered? The

hospital will be open and even further that groceries are available and water

continues to flow out of the pipes and electricity flows from the outlets? This

is a huge quandary in our country...where do we draw the line between individual

freedom and societal effective measures to protect the greater good (Spock -

" The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one " ).

This isn't an easy question or answer. I do20agree, I think NY is over reacting

here...but each and every state in the nation is having these same discussions

about when and why you would pull a mandatory trigger.

Here is one other way to view this: A flood is rising all around the town, EMS

calls are coming in as fast as the phone can be answered...and you call all your

other shifts back into work, MANDATORY RECALL....and 3 of your 24 medics get the

message but decide to not come into work. What do you do with those three? It

is their choice to come into work or not....and both of those choices have

consequences.

Enjoy your Sunday everyone.

Dudley

RE: Re: Choice and Consequences

ell Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

ither you take the vaccine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

ike NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice

hould be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a

ob. What a choice....

Jane Dinsmore

o: texasems-l

rom: kenneth.navarro@...

ate: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000

ubject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

aking that vaccine. Back to where we started...20:) <<<

The second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO

ave a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of

he freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

hoices made.

In discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

ertain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

acilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was

hat each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the

ob. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to

iolate his or her own values.

Each New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

ffects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

Freedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

f a child.

Kenny Navarro

allas

__________________________________________________________

otmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.

ttp://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/