RE: Choice and Consequences

October 11, 2009

I agree to a certain extent Dudley but most of us have put our trust into

our physicians, or the physicians we take our children to, to steer us in

the right direction. I don't typically do an internet search or read the

drug insert for every Rx I am given or prior to allowing the hospital to

give me something IVPB I simply trust my doc. I still do to a certain

extent but after what happened to my oldest son after the Hep B vaccine I am

very skeptical when it comes to stuff like this. Texas state law has an

exemption for Hep B vaccine to allow kids to attend school without it, the

kicker is that it has to be signed by a physician. No one made us take the

Heptavax when it came out in the 80's but most of us did. It was made from

horse serum and it gave me hepatitis and I didn't even want to hear the word

food for a week because of the N/V. My liver enzymes have been elevated

every time since then. Look at the controversy surrounding the vaccine for

cervical cancer a few years ago.

Lee

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Jane Dinsmore

Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 12:38 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: RE: Choice and Consequences

Dudley, you and I are usually on the opposite sides of the fence on issues

but I think the earth just shook because you couldn't have stated this any

better, and I agree. And after reading that package insert, you should

have the choice over your OWN body to refuse, and that choice shouldn't be

affected by coercion by government, employers, etc. as is evidenced in the

" do you want to lose your job " type of " choice " .

For immunizations, I don't think money to PAY for the immunization should

ever be an issue either- for instance, " I want the shot but I can't afford

to pay for it. " I have more than one friend right now with no insurance who

can't afford to take off work to sit for hours in line at the local health

department and doesn't have the $15 or $20 on top of that to pay for certain

immunizations, like the flu shot. But at the same time, threatening to

remove someone's source of income if they DON'T take the shot is just wrong

when the disease is not potentially life-threatening in most cases and

becomes so only for an extremely small segment of the population - a segment

that may be as small or smaller than the potential nasty side effects of the

vaccine in a short term or better yet, potentially long term view, which is

as yet unknown.

I do believe that some immunizations are absolutely necessary such as the

days of fighting smallpox and other current immunizations that we give our

children to keep them from developing potentially life-threatening diseases

such as diptheria, pertussis, and polio. However, H1N1 doesn't fall into

those categories. However, I also think that our government has failed to

protect us too in not forcing the pharamceutical companies to do a better

job of testing vaccines and in not making them develop vaccines without

known toxic adjuvants. There are enough red flags that have been raised out

there over this one issue that more investigation should be done to either

prove or disprove them. And if those red flags have merit, then something

should be done about those issues. But most times the red flags are ignored

because of the EXPENSE of fixing the problem if they are found to be real.

Sometimes " the cure CAN be worse than the disease " - not always, but

sometimes.....

Again, just my addled brain on a Sunday morning. It IS Sunday, right???? LOL

Jane Dinsmore

To: texasems-l

From: THEDUDMAN@...

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 12:31:49 -0400

Subject: Re: Choice and Consequences

If you do any research on the web you will find that the government and the

drug makers do not tell you the whole story so you can have INFORMED consent

prior to taking them.

Yet one more thing the government needs to do.? At a time where people can

get more information than ever before in the history of man (both accurate

and some not so much...) from the internet...we cry for the government to

get us the information.

After seeing the claims of new onset diabetes in children, I did my own

Google search and found a TON of information.? The one I felt was most

informative was an article on WebMD.? This all stemmed from a study done in

Italy in the late 90's and published in 2000.? The physician who was quoted

had no relationship with the original study or with any vaccine

manufacturer.? His synopsis was that the study wasn't large enough to have

great confidence in the results because of all the factors involved with

Type I diabetes onset such as family history and the " epidemic " of childhood

obesity.?

I would encourage each and every person on the planet to ask for and READ

the package insert for any vaccine or drug you are being recommended to take

or your children are being recommended to get.? We had them available for

the flu vaccines we just gave to over 1,000 people and we will have them for

the H1N1 vaccine when we get that.? I repeatedly see all contraindications,

side effects and complications listed...even those that are more rumor than

fact...the package insert addresses them.?

Just make sure you read them well and educate yourself....and if you feel

strongly one way or the other, then make sure you proclaim it from the

highest point you can find.? That is the beauty of this country.

Dudley

Choice and Consequences

>>> I am a firm believer folks should have a choice, not be MANDATED to take

them. <<<

Jane,

Folks DO have a choice. But with that choice are consequences. New York is

not mandating that ALL EMS personnel get the vaccine, only those who work

for hospital-based response services who chose to take care of patients.

Any EMS provider can refuse to take the vaccine. The consequence is that

they then cannot have access to patients.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

October 11, 2009

Hmmmm....why is that?Â Why do you feel you should have a choice at " times " but

not at other " times " ?

Dudley

RE: Re: Choice and Consequences

udley, I think if we were talking a disease with that sort of mortality rate as

ou mentioned, this discussion would be TOTALLY different.

ane Dinsmore

o: texasems-l

rom: THEDUDMAN@...

ate: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 12:43:41 -0400

ubject: Re: Re: Choice and Consequences

ne more reason why the southern states population are BOOMING and the northern

tates are shrinking. Over burdensome governmental intervention and taxation

ushes people away and fast.

I think there are times where this becomes an issue and a good debate is how do

ou maintain a healthy workforce when you have a pandemic so that you have

ealthcare workers to take care of the sick if we can't keep the healthcare

orkers well? That is the rub...we can talk PPE and good hygiene, but if we

ave a method to help prevent the healthcare workers from contracting the

isease...then when do we cross the line from choice to duty?

Lets throw a supposition out there: Let's suppose this was more like the 1918

lu with a 50% fatality rate of those infected and we had a vaccine that had

een tested and proven both safe and effective...so how does that change the

icture?=2

0 Especially if the government decides to quarantine those who are ill

or 30 days. Now how do we make sure the 911 call will be answered? The

ospital will be open and even further that groceries are available and water

ontinues to flow out of the pipes and electricity flows from the outlets? This

s a huge quandary in our country...where do we draw the line between individual

reedom and societal effective measures to protect the greater good (Spock -

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one " ).

This isn't an easy question or answer. I do20agree, I think NY is over reacting

ere...but each and every state in the nation is having these same discussions

bout when and why you would pull a mandatory trigger.

Here is one other way to view this: A flood is rising all around the town, EMS

alls are coming in as fast as the phone can be answered...and you call all your

ther shifts back into work, MANDATORY RECALL....and 3 of your 24 medics get the

essage but decide to not come into work. What do you do with those three? It

s their choice to come into work or not....and both of those choices have

onsequences.

Enjoy your Sunday everyone.

Dudley

-----Original Message-----

rom: Jane Dinsmore texas.paramedic@...>

o: texasems-l

ent: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 10:50 am

ubject: RE: Re: Choice and Consequences

ell Kenny this where I begin to disagree. That is not much of a " choice " -

ther you take the v

accine or you lose your job.... Soooooo it still sounds

ke NO choice to me unless those poor slobs want to be unemployed. The choice

ould be " to be sick or not to be sick " , not to have a job or not to have a

b. What a choice....

Jane Dinsmore

o: texasems-l

om: kenneth.navarro@...

te: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:01:20 +0000

bject: Re: Choice and Consequences

>> Ahhhh, but here is the crux of the conversation. You have a CHOICE about

king that vaccine. Back to where we started...20:) <<<

he second post in this conversation pointed out that the New York EMS folks DO

ve a choice. They just might not like the consequences of that choice. Part of

e freedom that comes from having choices is taking responsibility for the

oices made.

n discussions about ethics on this list, members offered advice about leaving

rtain companies when the owners required legal documentation that, while

cilitating payment, may distort the truth. The crux of those conversations was

at each individual must act in an ethical way even at the risk of loosing the

b. It was not worth the job, the well meaning members wrote, if one had to

olate his or her own values.

ach New York EMT must decide for themselves whether they want to risk side

fects from vaccination in order to continue taking care of patients.

reedom of choice with an expectation of zero consequences belongs in the mind

a child.

enny Navarro

llas

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October 11, 2009

Jane,

The earth is okay now...because I too believe the H1N1 is a safe vaccine and

enough has been done to make sure.? It has been made the exact same as seasonal

flu and it is considered a safe vaccine.? It has been tested all over the

country (including here in Texas) with no abnormal complications or side

effects.? Thimerosal is used in numerous vaccines, immunoglobulin, antivenin,

eye solutions and tattoo ink as a preservative.? Many vaccine manufacturers are

making pediatric formulas without it and with the huge preference for pre-load

syringes in vaccines, it is not as big an issue as it used to be.?

I still think you should have the right to refuse whatever you want to...but

that choice does have consequences and those could include losing the right to

work a job, go to a school or have a chance at a less healthier (or more

healthy) life.

Dudley

Choice and Consequences

>>> I am a firm believer folks should have a choice, not be MANDATED to take

them. <<<

Jane,

Folks DO have a choice. But with that choice are consequences. New York is not

mandating that ALL EMS personnel get the vaccine, only those who work for

hospital-based response services who chose to take care of patients.

Any EMS provider can refuse to take the vaccine. The consequence is that they

then cannot have access to patients.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

October 11, 2009