Re: Diagnosis of Death Remains Elusive in EMS

[Guest guest]

Like I said did they follow protocol of there protocol is not

breathing and no palpable pulses and penetrating head trauma then yes

to them he may have been dead. If it was a bls engine crew like it

very well could have been since they were part of the fire dept. Then

they may have been well within policy but we don't know the arcticle

doesn't say, again I say not enough info to judge at this time I'm

sure whoever is " looking into " the case does have all the info and

will take the right action. This sort of thing happens in the ED to

doctors too so let's not judge before we know all the facts. Ask Don

Royder about his pt. That was asystole is 3 leads with rigor mortis

that lived 3 more days so he could see his family one more time!!

Stranger things have in fact happened

-Chris

Sorry for the spelling and punctuation this was sent from my iPhone!

On Aug 3, 2009, at 21:11, Hatfield michaelwhatfield@...

> wrote:

> Not enough to make a judgement call?

>

> here are the facts.

>

> 1) The dude was shot

>

> 2) the EMTS said he was dead

>

> 3) He wasnt

>

> Unless he spontaneously started twitching/breathing or got a

> spontaneous heartbeat AFTER the EMT's said he was dead. then he was

> NEVER dead.

>

> What else do you need to know?

>

> Hatfield

>

>

>

> > And if the monitor showed asystole??? Isn't that a " workable " rhythm

> > with an ACLS algorithm?

> >

> > -Wes Ogilvie

> >

> > Diagnosis of Death Remains Elusive in EMS

> >

> > ?

> > Baltimore EMTs 'Reassigned' After Mistakenly Declaring Man Dead

> >

> > Monday , August 03, 2009

> >

> > Baltimore police say a burglary suspect laid on the floor of a

> > convenience

> > store for about a half-hour with a gunshot wound to the head before

> > officers

> > noticed he was still alive.

> >

> > Police spokesman Guglielmi says 51-year-old Quarles

> > was shot

> > by an officer after he lunged at the officer with a long screwdriver

> > early

> > Saturday. The officer initially thought Quarles was wielding a

> knife.

> >

> > Guglielmi says emergency medical technicians responded to the scene

> > and

> > pronounced Quarles dead, then left. About 30 minutes later, he says

> > the

> > officers noticed Quarles moving. The EMTs were recalled to the

> > scene, and

> > Quarles was taken to a trauma center. He remained in critical

> > condition on

> > Monday.

> >

> > The city's fire department is investigating the EMTs, who have been

> > temporarily reassigned.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Okay, I don't want to make a philosophical statement here, or start a political

discussion. This is simply a statistical observation.

In over thirty years in this game, I do not recall ever hearing of this

happening in a system that was not fire-based.

Does this happen anywhere other than in fire-based systems? Honest question.

Rob

[Guest guest]

Are there any non fire based first responders? Since the overwhelming numbers

are, it would stand to reason that when first responders are involved, the

majority would be fire based.

I’m sure it happens among ambulance crews of all types as well (making a

rushed DOS decision). The numbers there would be scattered since there are

multiple EMS systems out there.

Lt. Steve Lemming, A.A.S., L.P.

C-Shift

EMS Administration Officer

Azle, Texas Fire Department

This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual

(s) to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of

the author and do not necessarily represent those of The City of Azle or its

policies. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please phone Steve

Lemming (817)444-7108. Please also destroy and delete the message from your

computer.

For more information on The City of Azle, visit our web site at:

http://www.cityofazle.org http://www.cityofazle.org>

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of rob.davis@...

Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:54 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Diagnosis of Death Remains Elusive in EMS

Okay, I don't want to make a philosophical statement here, or start a political

discussion. This is simply a statistical observation.

In over thirty years in this game, I do not recall ever hearing of this

happening in a system that was not fire-based.

Does this happen anywhere other than in fire-based systems? Honest question.

Rob

[Guest guest]

Are there any non fire based first responders? Since the overwhelming numbers

are, it would stand to reason that when first responders are involved, the

majority would be fire based.

I’m sure it happens among ambulance crews of all types as well (making a

rushed DOS decision). The numbers there would be scattered since there are

multiple EMS systems out there.

Lt. Steve Lemming, A.A.S., L.P.

C-Shift

EMS Administration Officer

Azle, Texas Fire Department

This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual

(s) to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of

the author and do not necessarily represent those of The City of Azle or its

policies. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please phone Steve

Lemming (817)444-7108. Please also destroy and delete the message from your

computer.

For more information on The City of Azle, visit our web site at:

http://www.cityofazle.org http://www.cityofazle.org>

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of rob.davis@...

Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:54 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Diagnosis of Death Remains Elusive in EMS

Okay, I don't want to make a philosophical statement here, or start a political

discussion. This is simply a statistical observation.

In over thirty years in this game, I do not recall ever hearing of this

happening in a system that was not fire-based.

Does this happen anywhere other than in fire-based systems? Honest question.

Rob

[Guest guest]

Are there any non fire based first responders? Since the overwhelming numbers

are, it would stand to reason that when first responders are involved, the

majority would be fire based.

I’m sure it happens among ambulance crews of all types as well (making a

rushed DOS decision). The numbers there would be scattered since there are

multiple EMS systems out there.

Lt. Steve Lemming, A.A.S., L.P.

C-Shift

EMS Administration Officer

Azle, Texas Fire Department

This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual

(s) to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of

the author and do not necessarily represent those of The City of Azle or its

policies. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please phone Steve

Lemming (817)444-7108. Please also destroy and delete the message from your

computer.

For more information on The City of Azle, visit our web site at:

http://www.cityofazle.org http://www.cityofazle.org>

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf

Of rob.davis@...

Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:54 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Diagnosis of Death Remains Elusive in EMS

Okay, I don't want to make a philosophical statement here, or start a political

discussion. This is simply a statistical observation.

In over thirty years in this game, I do not recall ever hearing of this

happening in a system that was not fire-based.

Does this happen anywhere other than in fire-based systems? Honest question.

Rob

[Guest guest]

:

        The STRANGEST THING!  THAT HAPPENED TO ME on an MVA scene! The driver

was 'pronounced " by the DPS on scene, but I hooked him up anyway, and, lo and

behold the guy says " What happened!? I musta fell asleep! "

        Well, I had to take a shower when I got back to the station. The driver

faired better than me! He was treated and released with no " accident " or

injuries.

 

---------------------------------- 'NUFF

SAID---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

>

>

> I, too, read this article. My question: should they not have AT THE

> LEAST placed this guy on a cardiac monitor? Ok, head injury-I got

> that--BUT-- just to CYA? It wouldn't have hurt. There was NO

> decapitation. I would have placed him on the cardiac monitor and then

> went on from there.

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> From: Bledsoe

>

> To: " texasems-l@ yahoogro ups.com "

> >;

> " Paramedicine@ yahoogroups. com "

> >

> Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 6:03:19 PM

> Subject: Diagnosis of Death Remains Elusive in EMS

>

>

> Baltimore EMTs 'Reassigned' After Mistakenly Declaring Man Dead

>

> Monday , August 03, 2009

>

> Baltimore police say a burglary suspect laid on the floor of a convenience

> store for about a half-hour with a gunshot wound to the head before

> officers

> noticed he was still alive.

>

> Police spokesman Guglielmi says 51-year-old Quarles

> was shot

> by an officer after he lunged at the officer with a long screwdriver early

> Saturday. The officer initially thought Quarles was wielding a knife.

>

> Guglielmi says emergency medical technicians responded to the scene and

> pronounced Quarles dead, then left. About 30 minutes later, he says the

> officers noticed Quarles moving. The EMTs were recalled to the scene, and

> Quarles was taken to a trauma center. He remained in critical condition on

> Monday.

>

> The city's fire department is investigating the EMTs, who have been

> temporarily reassigned.

>

>

[Guest guest]

:

        The STRANGEST THING!  THAT HAPPENED TO ME on an MVA scene! The driver

was 'pronounced " by the DPS on scene, but I hooked him up anyway, and, lo and

behold the guy says " What happened!? I musta fell asleep! "

        Well, I had to take a shower when I got back to the station. The driver

faired better than me! He was treated and released with no " accident " or

injuries.

 

---------------------------------- 'NUFF

SAID---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

>

>

> I, too, read this article. My question: should they not have AT THE

> LEAST placed this guy on a cardiac monitor? Ok, head injury-I got

> that--BUT-- just to CYA? It wouldn't have hurt. There was NO

> decapitation. I would have placed him on the cardiac monitor and then

> went on from there.

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> From: Bledsoe

>

> To: " texasems-l@ yahoogro ups.com "

> >;

> " Paramedicine@ yahoogroups. com "

> >

> Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 6:03:19 PM

> Subject: Diagnosis of Death Remains Elusive in EMS

>

>

> Baltimore EMTs 'Reassigned' After Mistakenly Declaring Man Dead

>

> Monday , August 03, 2009

>

> Baltimore police say a burglary suspect laid on the floor of a convenience

> store for about a half-hour with a gunshot wound to the head before

> officers

> noticed he was still alive.

>

> Police spokesman Guglielmi says 51-year-old Quarles

> was shot

> by an officer after he lunged at the officer with a long screwdriver early

> Saturday. The officer initially thought Quarles was wielding a knife.

>

> Guglielmi says emergency medical technicians responded to the scene and

> pronounced Quarles dead, then left. About 30 minutes later, he says the

> officers noticed Quarles moving. The EMTs were recalled to the scene, and

> Quarles was taken to a trauma center. He remained in critical condition on

> Monday.

>

> The city's fire department is investigating the EMTs, who have been

> temporarily reassigned.

>

>

[Guest guest]

:

        The STRANGEST THING!  THAT HAPPENED TO ME on an MVA scene! The driver

was 'pronounced " by the DPS on scene, but I hooked him up anyway, and, lo and

behold the guy says " What happened!? I musta fell asleep! "

        Well, I had to take a shower when I got back to the station. The driver

faired better than me! He was treated and released with no " accident " or

injuries.

 

---------------------------------- 'NUFF

SAID---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

>

>

> I, too, read this article. My question: should they not have AT THE

> LEAST placed this guy on a cardiac monitor? Ok, head injury-I got

> that--BUT-- just to CYA? It wouldn't have hurt. There was NO

> decapitation. I would have placed him on the cardiac monitor and then

> went on from there.

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> From: Bledsoe

>

> To: " texasems-l@ yahoogro ups.com "

> >;

> " Paramedicine@ yahoogroups. com "

> >

> Sent: Monday, August 3, 2009 6:03:19 PM

> Subject: Diagnosis of Death Remains Elusive in EMS

>

>

> Baltimore EMTs 'Reassigned' After Mistakenly Declaring Man Dead

>

> Monday , August 03, 2009

>

> Baltimore police say a burglary suspect laid on the floor of a convenience

> store for about a half-hour with a gunshot wound to the head before

> officers

> noticed he was still alive.

>

> Police spokesman Guglielmi says 51-year-old Quarles

> was shot

> by an officer after he lunged at the officer with a long screwdriver early

> Saturday. The officer initially thought Quarles was wielding a knife.

>

> Guglielmi says emergency medical technicians responded to the scene and

> pronounced Quarles dead, then left. About 30 minutes later, he says the

> officers noticed Quarles moving. The EMTs were recalled to the scene, and

> Quarles was taken to a trauma center. He remained in critical condition on

> Monday.

>

> The city's fire department is investigating the EMTs, who have been

> temporarily reassigned.

>

>

[Guest guest]

" Medicine Man "

What if you placed a Cardiac Monitor and ran a Lead II strip and it showed

Asystole. Would you attempt recusation or not? If you said no you wouldn't

work him based on the MOI, remember that more than likely you have a protocol

for " Asystole " in your system. What if was PEA?

Shiplet, LP, AASP

EMS Education Coordinator

Collin County Community College

<><

" Tomorrow's Pre-Hospital Health Care Team...Learning Together Today "

[Guest guest]

" Medicine Man "

What if you placed a Cardiac Monitor and ran a Lead II strip and it showed

Asystole. Would you attempt recusation or not? If you said no you wouldn't

work him based on the MOI, remember that more than likely you have a protocol

for " Asystole " in your system. What if was PEA?

Shiplet, LP, AASP

EMS Education Coordinator

Collin County Community College

<><

" Tomorrow's Pre-Hospital Health Care Team...Learning Together Today "

[Guest guest]

" Medicine Man "

What if you placed a Cardiac Monitor and ran a Lead II strip and it showed

Asystole. Would you attempt recusation or not? If you said no you wouldn't

work him based on the MOI, remember that more than likely you have a protocol

for " Asystole " in your system. What if was PEA?

Shiplet, LP, AASP

EMS Education Coordinator

Collin County Community College

<><

" Tomorrow's Pre-Hospital Health Care Team...Learning Together Today "