Re: Weaning Ourselves Off Of Our Medicines

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Mar!

No hurry!   Just whenever it's convenient and you think of it.  If

you remember, could you get their

opinion on wearing glasses with colored lenses.  They come in about 8

to 10 different colors( like red,

green, orange, violet, blue ...that's all I can remember). 

Thanks again,

Kit

> Hello Kit

>

> I can ask tomorrow what machine she do have. I went to a place

called V-Clinique. They do have many different treatments...She have

a big thing, so Im sure its not something you can buy and have at

home

>

> I have too seen different types of light therapy machinery. I can

try to ask in another list Im on, a natural therapy list

thing......if any of them know of good products in light-therapy...

>

> It may take some days before I know more....

>

> Mar

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Mar!

No hurry!   Just whenever it's convenient and you think of it.  If

you remember, could you get their

opinion on wearing glasses with colored lenses.  They come in about 8

to 10 different colors( like red,

green, orange, violet, blue ...that's all I can remember). 

Thanks again,

Kit

> Hello Kit

>

> I can ask tomorrow what machine she do have. I went to a place

called V-Clinique. They do have many different treatments...She have

a big thing, so Im sure its not something you can buy and have at

home

>

> I have too seen different types of light therapy machinery. I can

try to ask in another list Im on, a natural therapy list

thing......if any of them know of good products in light-therapy...

>

> It may take some days before I know more....

>

> Mar

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It is because I know about side-effects and how it will affect you with time.

It is no problem if conventional medication is used for short times...but

when it starts to be over years, every day...

Like the SSRI antidepressive...if you take them for many years..your brain

cells gets killed....but if you take them for one year or something like

that....no problem...

The SSRI antidepressants will not kill your brain cells if you take them for

years. People that are clinical depressed will have to take antidepressants

for the rest of their life. If your brain cells could be killed then mine

must be gone. I have take antidepressants for many years and will have to

take them for the rest of my life.

I don't know what you mean by conventional medicine. I take pain medication

and again I will have to take them for the rest of my life for my fibro.

I am interested in where you got your information so that I can read about

the problems you mentioned. Thanks a lot for any help in this direction that

you can give.

Take care,

Irene

Books may well be the only true magic

Alice Hoffman.

[Guest guest]

It is because I know about side-effects and how it will affect you with time.

It is no problem if conventional medication is used for short times...but

when it starts to be over years, every day...

Like the SSRI antidepressive...if you take them for many years..your brain

cells gets killed....but if you take them for one year or something like

that....no problem...

The SSRI antidepressants will not kill your brain cells if you take them for

years. People that are clinical depressed will have to take antidepressants

for the rest of their life. If your brain cells could be killed then mine

must be gone. I have take antidepressants for many years and will have to

take them for the rest of my life.

I don't know what you mean by conventional medicine. I take pain medication

and again I will have to take them for the rest of my life for my fibro.

I am interested in where you got your information so that I can read about

the problems you mentioned. Thanks a lot for any help in this direction that

you can give.

Take care,

Irene

Books may well be the only true magic

Alice Hoffman.

[Guest guest]

My doctor said it was true. But he did too laugh and said: well, we do have

milliards of brain cells.

I was there yesterday and we talked about this. He have same point of view as

me. Both me and him thinks doctors do prescribe SSRI medicines uncritically. We

are lucky that we dont have Prozac in Norway, so at least the worst SSRI

medicine is unavailable here. He means that SSRI medicines do help alot where

there is really depression. But he means too that after a time people should be

able to wean of these medicines, and that they dont need it anymore.

And another place was...let me see...was www.cfsresearch.org and Dr.

Cheneys work.

I will put the text in here...

" Cheney: antidepressants & stimulants can fry your brain: eye twitching

Transcribed conversation between Cheney and a fellow patient

date: 30 December 2000

During our conversation on Klonopin (don't worry - I'm all done with that),

Cheney raised an issue of great concern. (Someone already mentioned this, but

it's worth reiterating.)

He pulled a book off the shelf by ph Glenmullen, MD (psychiatrist at Harvard

Medical School) called " Prozac Backlash " . It's subtitled " Overcoming the Dangers

of Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil and Other Antidepressants with Safe and Effective

Alternatives. " It is endorsed by several other Ivy League psychiatrists. Cheney

called its implications " staggering " .

The basic premise is that SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors) and

stimulants work by increasing the firing of neurons. Many Parkinson drugs do

this too. While this often has great benefits in the short term, many doctors

are now realizing that long tern use fries brain cells. As Cheney explained in

the Klonopin discussion, any neuron that fires excessively over time is viewed

by the body as dangerous/damaged, and it is destroyed. These drugs, over a

period of 10 years or so, will lead to what Cheney called " neuro degenerative

disorders. "

What happened is that doctors have begun seeing a sudden rash of patients with

neurological symptoms - and they're all patients who have been on Prozac, or

something similar, for about 10 years. The excerpt from the first chapter that I

found on yahoo.com's shopping/book section happened to mention a woman who came

in with eye twitching. Cheney says he's also seeing these neurological symptoms

in his patients who've been on SSRIs or stimulants for 10 years or so.

The truly horrific thing is that the drug companies knew this all along. And

they hid it. They hid the data from the FDA.

Cheney opened the book to a before and after picture of a monkey's brain. Before

being given Redux (?), a more powerful form of Prozac, the photo was filled with

fine while lines and blobs on a dark background. Cheney said the white lines and

blobs were neurons - brain cells. Four days after being given the drug, the

photo of the monkey's brain was mostly all dark - very few white lines or blobs.

Brain cells just fried.

Cheney had a copy of the May 22 issue of Newsweek with J. Fox on the

cover. It has a great article about Parkinson's, a disease that involves a loss

of neurons in the area associated with motor control. The popular Parkinson's

drugs stimulate the remaining neurons to " perform heroically " , firing off

excessively. But it notes that while benefits are seen for 3 to 5 years, at that

point the neurological symptoms get much worse - wild involuntary movements,

etc. The drug actually speeds up the degenerative process.

Cheney went into a complex explanation of SSRIs, and I lost part of it turning

the tape over, but the heart of it seems to be that to address depression, which

is a lack of serotonin, they give you a drug that blocks serotonin from being

vacuumed up by the reuptake channel of the neuron. This increases the serotonin

floating around the intersynaptic cleft (area between neurons). (Serotonin is a

neurotransmitter - a chemical messenger. It's released by one neuron into the

cleft and taken up by the adjacent neuron. Message sent!) The drug increases the

amount of serotonin available to reach the receptors of the adjacent neuron, but

it's often too much - and the excess has to be cleared away for the next

" message " - the next burst of serotonin to be released. The body clears away the

excess serotonin by oxidizing it, but this turns it into a toxic compound that

over time kills both the sending and receiving neurons. " So what starts out as

an attempt to increase serotonin and reduce symptoms, ends up with the

destruction of the serotonegeric (sp?) system itself. It takes about a decade -

more in some, less in others. Now when the serotonegeric nerves are dead, you

start getting these motor neuron problems, which is what we're seeing. "

" You know what a lot of doctors (who don't understand CFIDS and assume Klonopin

will interfere with sleep or be addictive) are doing? They're saying 'Well,

let's just give them an antidepressant. And they are frying their (patients')

brains and they don't even know it. In fact a CFIDS patient on one of these

drugs fries their brain even faster than a non-CFIDS person. " With the shift

toward seizure, our brains are already firing excessively and inappropriately,

then the SSRI just makes it more so.

" The other way some people with CFIDS are going is stimulating the brain,

stimulants like Ritalin, Provigil, etc. They do the same thing - they fry the

brain. They cause the neurons to fire at lower stimulus by lowering the firing

threshold. All stimulants are dangerous, especially over the long-haul. "

" I'm not saying that you might not find them useful in a short term situation.

But over the long term the physiology demands that neurons that fire excessively

be killed. The brain will kill off excess firing neurons. "

Cheney strongly urges anyone taking antidepressants or stimulants to read this

book. It has safe alternatives in it.

Source : Carol Sieverling's Support group at : http://

www.virtualhometown.com/dfwcfids "

Dr. Cheney seems to be a very good researcher. At least hes working with

people with CFS. I believe that CFS and FMS is same disease, just that they with

CFS do have higher tolerance to pains. They do have more fatique than pains.

I wish I had that book Cheney is mentioning... " Prozac backlash " ...since it

does have safe alternatives in it.

Mar

> The SSRI antidepressants will not kill your brain cells if you take them for

> years. People that are clinical depressed will have to take antidepressants

> for the rest of their life. If your brain cells could be killed then mine

> must be gone. I have take antidepressants for many years and will have to

> take them for the rest of my life.

>

> I don't know what you mean by conventional medicine. I take pain medication

> and again I will have to take them for the rest of my life for my fibro.

>

> I am interested in where you got your information so that I can read about

> the problems you mentioned. Thanks a lot for any help in this direction that

> you can give.

>

>

> Take care,

> Irene

>

> Books may well be the only true magic

> Alice Hoffman.

[Guest guest]

My doctor said it was true. But he did too laugh and said: well, we do have

milliards of brain cells.

I was there yesterday and we talked about this. He have same point of view as

me. Both me and him thinks doctors do prescribe SSRI medicines uncritically. We

are lucky that we dont have Prozac in Norway, so at least the worst SSRI

medicine is unavailable here. He means that SSRI medicines do help alot where

there is really depression. But he means too that after a time people should be

able to wean of these medicines, and that they dont need it anymore.

And another place was...let me see...was www.cfsresearch.org and Dr.

Cheneys work.

I will put the text in here...

" Cheney: antidepressants & stimulants can fry your brain: eye twitching

Transcribed conversation between Cheney and a fellow patient

date: 30 December 2000

During our conversation on Klonopin (don't worry - I'm all done with that),

Cheney raised an issue of great concern. (Someone already mentioned this, but

it's worth reiterating.)

He pulled a book off the shelf by ph Glenmullen, MD (psychiatrist at Harvard

Medical School) called " Prozac Backlash " . It's subtitled " Overcoming the Dangers

of Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil and Other Antidepressants with Safe and Effective

Alternatives. " It is endorsed by several other Ivy League psychiatrists. Cheney

called its implications " staggering " .

The basic premise is that SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors) and

stimulants work by increasing the firing of neurons. Many Parkinson drugs do

this too. While this often has great benefits in the short term, many doctors

are now realizing that long tern use fries brain cells. As Cheney explained in

the Klonopin discussion, any neuron that fires excessively over time is viewed

by the body as dangerous/damaged, and it is destroyed. These drugs, over a

period of 10 years or so, will lead to what Cheney called " neuro degenerative

disorders. "

What happened is that doctors have begun seeing a sudden rash of patients with

neurological symptoms - and they're all patients who have been on Prozac, or

something similar, for about 10 years. The excerpt from the first chapter that I

found on yahoo.com's shopping/book section happened to mention a woman who came

in with eye twitching. Cheney says he's also seeing these neurological symptoms

in his patients who've been on SSRIs or stimulants for 10 years or so.

The truly horrific thing is that the drug companies knew this all along. And

they hid it. They hid the data from the FDA.

Cheney opened the book to a before and after picture of a monkey's brain. Before

being given Redux (?), a more powerful form of Prozac, the photo was filled with

fine while lines and blobs on a dark background. Cheney said the white lines and

blobs were neurons - brain cells. Four days after being given the drug, the

photo of the monkey's brain was mostly all dark - very few white lines or blobs.

Brain cells just fried.

Cheney had a copy of the May 22 issue of Newsweek with J. Fox on the

cover. It has a great article about Parkinson's, a disease that involves a loss

of neurons in the area associated with motor control. The popular Parkinson's

drugs stimulate the remaining neurons to " perform heroically " , firing off

excessively. But it notes that while benefits are seen for 3 to 5 years, at that

point the neurological symptoms get much worse - wild involuntary movements,

etc. The drug actually speeds up the degenerative process.

Cheney went into a complex explanation of SSRIs, and I lost part of it turning

the tape over, but the heart of it seems to be that to address depression, which

is a lack of serotonin, they give you a drug that blocks serotonin from being

vacuumed up by the reuptake channel of the neuron. This increases the serotonin

floating around the intersynaptic cleft (area between neurons). (Serotonin is a

neurotransmitter - a chemical messenger. It's released by one neuron into the

cleft and taken up by the adjacent neuron. Message sent!) The drug increases the

amount of serotonin available to reach the receptors of the adjacent neuron, but

it's often too much - and the excess has to be cleared away for the next

" message " - the next burst of serotonin to be released. The body clears away the

excess serotonin by oxidizing it, but this turns it into a toxic compound that

over time kills both the sending and receiving neurons. " So what starts out as

an attempt to increase serotonin and reduce symptoms, ends up with the

destruction of the serotonegeric (sp?) system itself. It takes about a decade -

more in some, less in others. Now when the serotonegeric nerves are dead, you

start getting these motor neuron problems, which is what we're seeing. "

" You know what a lot of doctors (who don't understand CFIDS and assume Klonopin

will interfere with sleep or be addictive) are doing? They're saying 'Well,

let's just give them an antidepressant. And they are frying their (patients')

brains and they don't even know it. In fact a CFIDS patient on one of these

drugs fries their brain even faster than a non-CFIDS person. " With the shift

toward seizure, our brains are already firing excessively and inappropriately,

then the SSRI just makes it more so.

" The other way some people with CFIDS are going is stimulating the brain,

stimulants like Ritalin, Provigil, etc. They do the same thing - they fry the

brain. They cause the neurons to fire at lower stimulus by lowering the firing

threshold. All stimulants are dangerous, especially over the long-haul. "

" I'm not saying that you might not find them useful in a short term situation.

But over the long term the physiology demands that neurons that fire excessively

be killed. The brain will kill off excess firing neurons. "

Cheney strongly urges anyone taking antidepressants or stimulants to read this

book. It has safe alternatives in it.

Source : Carol Sieverling's Support group at : http://

www.virtualhometown.com/dfwcfids "

Dr. Cheney seems to be a very good researcher. At least hes working with

people with CFS. I believe that CFS and FMS is same disease, just that they with

CFS do have higher tolerance to pains. They do have more fatique than pains.

I wish I had that book Cheney is mentioning... " Prozac backlash " ...since it

does have safe alternatives in it.

Mar

> The SSRI antidepressants will not kill your brain cells if you take them for

> years. People that are clinical depressed will have to take antidepressants

> for the rest of their life. If your brain cells could be killed then mine

> must be gone. I have take antidepressants for many years and will have to

> take them for the rest of my life.

>

> I don't know what you mean by conventional medicine. I take pain medication

> and again I will have to take them for the rest of my life for my fibro.

>

> I am interested in where you got your information so that I can read about

> the problems you mentioned. Thanks a lot for any help in this direction that

> you can give.

>

>

> Take care,

> Irene

>

> Books may well be the only true magic

> Alice Hoffman.

[Guest guest]

My doctor said it was true. But he did too laugh and said: well, we do have

milliards of brain cells.

I was there yesterday and we talked about this. He have same point of view as

me. Both me and him thinks doctors do prescribe SSRI medicines uncritically. We

are lucky that we dont have Prozac in Norway, so at least the worst SSRI

medicine is unavailable here. He means that SSRI medicines do help alot where

there is really depression. But he means too that after a time people should be

able to wean of these medicines, and that they dont need it anymore.

And another place was...let me see...was www.cfsresearch.org and Dr.

Cheneys work.

I will put the text in here...

" Cheney: antidepressants & stimulants can fry your brain: eye twitching

Transcribed conversation between Cheney and a fellow patient

date: 30 December 2000

During our conversation on Klonopin (don't worry - I'm all done with that),

Cheney raised an issue of great concern. (Someone already mentioned this, but

it's worth reiterating.)

He pulled a book off the shelf by ph Glenmullen, MD (psychiatrist at Harvard

Medical School) called " Prozac Backlash " . It's subtitled " Overcoming the Dangers

of Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil and Other Antidepressants with Safe and Effective

Alternatives. " It is endorsed by several other Ivy League psychiatrists. Cheney

called its implications " staggering " .

The basic premise is that SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors) and

stimulants work by increasing the firing of neurons. Many Parkinson drugs do

this too. While this often has great benefits in the short term, many doctors

are now realizing that long tern use fries brain cells. As Cheney explained in

the Klonopin discussion, any neuron that fires excessively over time is viewed

by the body as dangerous/damaged, and it is destroyed. These drugs, over a

period of 10 years or so, will lead to what Cheney called " neuro degenerative

disorders. "

What happened is that doctors have begun seeing a sudden rash of patients with

neurological symptoms - and they're all patients who have been on Prozac, or

something similar, for about 10 years. The excerpt from the first chapter that I

found on yahoo.com's shopping/book section happened to mention a woman who came

in with eye twitching. Cheney says he's also seeing these neurological symptoms

in his patients who've been on SSRIs or stimulants for 10 years or so.

The truly horrific thing is that the drug companies knew this all along. And

they hid it. They hid the data from the FDA.

Cheney opened the book to a before and after picture of a monkey's brain. Before

being given Redux (?), a more powerful form of Prozac, the photo was filled with

fine while lines and blobs on a dark background. Cheney said the white lines and

blobs were neurons - brain cells. Four days after being given the drug, the

photo of the monkey's brain was mostly all dark - very few white lines or blobs.

Brain cells just fried.

Cheney had a copy of the May 22 issue of Newsweek with J. Fox on the

cover. It has a great article about Parkinson's, a disease that involves a loss

of neurons in the area associated with motor control. The popular Parkinson's

drugs stimulate the remaining neurons to " perform heroically " , firing off

excessively. But it notes that while benefits are seen for 3 to 5 years, at that

point the neurological symptoms get much worse - wild involuntary movements,

etc. The drug actually speeds up the degenerative process.

Cheney went into a complex explanation of SSRIs, and I lost part of it turning

the tape over, but the heart of it seems to be that to address depression, which

is a lack of serotonin, they give you a drug that blocks serotonin from being

vacuumed up by the reuptake channel of the neuron. This increases the serotonin

floating around the intersynaptic cleft (area between neurons). (Serotonin is a

neurotransmitter - a chemical messenger. It's released by one neuron into the

cleft and taken up by the adjacent neuron. Message sent!) The drug increases the

amount of serotonin available to reach the receptors of the adjacent neuron, but

it's often too much - and the excess has to be cleared away for the next

" message " - the next burst of serotonin to be released. The body clears away the

excess serotonin by oxidizing it, but this turns it into a toxic compound that

over time kills both the sending and receiving neurons. " So what starts out as

an attempt to increase serotonin and reduce symptoms, ends up with the

destruction of the serotonegeric (sp?) system itself. It takes about a decade -

more in some, less in others. Now when the serotonegeric nerves are dead, you

start getting these motor neuron problems, which is what we're seeing. "

" You know what a lot of doctors (who don't understand CFIDS and assume Klonopin

will interfere with sleep or be addictive) are doing? They're saying 'Well,

let's just give them an antidepressant. And they are frying their (patients')

brains and they don't even know it. In fact a CFIDS patient on one of these

drugs fries their brain even faster than a non-CFIDS person. " With the shift

toward seizure, our brains are already firing excessively and inappropriately,

then the SSRI just makes it more so.

" The other way some people with CFIDS are going is stimulating the brain,

stimulants like Ritalin, Provigil, etc. They do the same thing - they fry the

brain. They cause the neurons to fire at lower stimulus by lowering the firing

threshold. All stimulants are dangerous, especially over the long-haul. "

" I'm not saying that you might not find them useful in a short term situation.

But over the long term the physiology demands that neurons that fire excessively

be killed. The brain will kill off excess firing neurons. "

Cheney strongly urges anyone taking antidepressants or stimulants to read this

book. It has safe alternatives in it.

Source : Carol Sieverling's Support group at : http://

www.virtualhometown.com/dfwcfids "

Dr. Cheney seems to be a very good researcher. At least hes working with

people with CFS. I believe that CFS and FMS is same disease, just that they with

CFS do have higher tolerance to pains. They do have more fatique than pains.

I wish I had that book Cheney is mentioning... " Prozac backlash " ...since it

does have safe alternatives in it.

Mar

> The SSRI antidepressants will not kill your brain cells if you take them for

> years. People that are clinical depressed will have to take antidepressants

> for the rest of their life. If your brain cells could be killed then mine

> must be gone. I have take antidepressants for many years and will have to

> take them for the rest of my life.

>

> I don't know what you mean by conventional medicine. I take pain medication

> and again I will have to take them for the rest of my life for my fibro.

>

> I am interested in where you got your information so that I can read about

> the problems you mentioned. Thanks a lot for any help in this direction that

> you can give.

>

>

> Take care,

> Irene

>

> Books may well be the only true magic

> Alice Hoffman.

[Guest guest]

Yes, but if this is true, then why don't *all* patients who have been on

antidepressants for 10 years have these problems? I've known a number

of people who have been on antidepressants for that long and none of

them had the problems you describe here.

It's the same kind of line about how horrible birth control pills are.

Oh, they mess up your system, they cause you to have cancer, blab, blab,

blab. Well, I've been on them over 10 years now, and I haven't run into

the problems that some doctors swear that are out there.

One doctor writing a book doesn't make something true. For something to

be true for me, I want to see several scientific studies done by

different, unassociated doctors who can all reproduce the original

study. I agree drugs can have long term effects, I just don't think

they are as radical and uniform across the boards as the " I don't like

drugs, let's do things with herbs " people with herbs make them out to

be. Anything that causes a chemical change in your body is a chemical

whether you swallowed it as a pill from a drug manufacturing plant or an

herb from a bottle.

Darcy

[Guest guest]

Yes, but if this is true, then why don't *all* patients who have been on

antidepressants for 10 years have these problems? I've known a number

of people who have been on antidepressants for that long and none of

them had the problems you describe here.

It's the same kind of line about how horrible birth control pills are.

Oh, they mess up your system, they cause you to have cancer, blab, blab,

blab. Well, I've been on them over 10 years now, and I haven't run into

the problems that some doctors swear that are out there.

One doctor writing a book doesn't make something true. For something to

be true for me, I want to see several scientific studies done by

different, unassociated doctors who can all reproduce the original

study. I agree drugs can have long term effects, I just don't think

they are as radical and uniform across the boards as the " I don't like

drugs, let's do things with herbs " people with herbs make them out to

be. Anything that causes a chemical change in your body is a chemical

whether you swallowed it as a pill from a drug manufacturing plant or an

herb from a bottle.

Darcy

[Guest guest]

Yes, but if this is true, then why don't *all* patients who have been on

antidepressants for 10 years have these problems? I've known a number

of people who have been on antidepressants for that long and none of

them had the problems you describe here.

It's the same kind of line about how horrible birth control pills are.

Oh, they mess up your system, they cause you to have cancer, blab, blab,

blab. Well, I've been on them over 10 years now, and I haven't run into

the problems that some doctors swear that are out there.

One doctor writing a book doesn't make something true. For something to

be true for me, I want to see several scientific studies done by

different, unassociated doctors who can all reproduce the original

study. I agree drugs can have long term effects, I just don't think

they are as radical and uniform across the boards as the " I don't like

drugs, let's do things with herbs " people with herbs make them out to

be. Anything that causes a chemical change in your body is a chemical

whether you swallowed it as a pill from a drug manufacturing plant or an

herb from a bottle.

Darcy

[Guest guest]

That all patients who have been on antidepressants for 10 years dont get these

problems is probably same reason as everything else in life affecting you...

We have different bodies, different health, different everything *grin*

Good for you and other people here that you dont get problems with your

medicines

Mar

> Yes, but if this is true, then why don't *all* patients who have been on

> antidepressants for 10 years have these problems? I've known a number

> of people who have been on antidepressants for that long and none of

> them had the problems you describe here.

>

> It's the same kind of line about how horrible birth control pills are.

> Oh, they mess up your system, they cause you to have cancer, blab, blab,

> blab. Well, I've been on them over 10 years now, and I haven't run into

> the problems that some doctors swear that are out there.

>

> One doctor writing a book doesn't make something true. For something to

> be true for me, I want to see several scientific studies done by

> different, unassociated doctors who can all reproduce the original

> study. I agree drugs can have long term effects, I just don't think

> they are as radical and uniform across the boards as the " I don't like

> drugs, let's do things with herbs " people with herbs make them out to

> be. Anything that causes a chemical change in your body is a chemical

> whether you swallowed it as a pill from a drug manufacturing plant or an

> herb from a bottle.

> Darcy