Why do chelators redistribute after half-life? - Cross post - to Andy

[Guest guest]

The insight/discovery/finding, etc. that chelators redistribute most after their

half-life (as

doses trail off) seems absolutely unique and core to the Cutler chelation

protocol, and may

be substantially responsible for its success relative to other protocols. Dose

timing and

variability are a frequent source of questions on the Autism-Mercury and

frequent-dose-

chelation Yahoo groups, and often I get the feeling noone (questioner or

responder) really

understands WHY/HOW redistribution happens (there are never any details beyond

" this is

what Andy has said " and " when we differed a lot we saw bad things " ) and wish I

knew more

about Andy's reasoning so I could work around imperfect scheduling issues the

optimize

my child's chelation experience.

I heard that Buttar based his day-on-day-off schedule on his child's custody

schedule, and

it not surprisingly didn't work for us. I made it a point to understand from

that point on

what these wildly varied chelation schedules are based on so I can choose

intelligently and

help others to do so. While I'm confident Andy's schedule works, I am

uncomfortable that

the central truth on which it's based is still a mystery to me.

A person chelating a child or themselves with frequent dose chelation, which is

probably

going to span approx 100 rounds or two years (perhaps more), would want/need to

understand the logic to adjust dose timing when imperfections and real-world

problems

arise. We have an ASD child on TDDMPS (which I know is not ideal delivery

method, but is

practical and working for us). We've been on 8hr schedule (5 rounds) but moved

to 6

hours last round to be sure that if disruptions arose they'd be unlikely to

force us past 8

hours, which I can't say was the case on the 8 hr schedule, where I several

times a round

was dosing at anywhere from 10-30min past the 8 hours.

Disruptions/imperfect conditions for us can include activities in my child's

schedule that

can wash away a transdermal dose before the 1-2hours recommended by our

pharmacist

(swimming or child's bath time that moves around if child is especially tired

early or we're

running late), child or sibling activities or significant traffic delays where

we might

get trapped off-site when a dose is due - it's too inconvenient to always bring

an cold

pack with a syringe in it, giant tantrums or injuries or other emergencies that

can

happen around when dose is due, frequent significant sleep disruptions from my

ASD

child and normal spouse and resulting exhaustion causing me to oversleep a dose,

storms

at night, concern that an alarm clock will awaken my insomniac spouse and child,

thereby

further disrupting our barely acceptable sleep level of the present so not

usable, etc.

I thought Andy said the main guideline - besides keeping the level of the

chelator

relatively constant and low if necessary - was that it was ALWAYS OK to dose

earlier than

the half-life time but NOT later. This means I can give my child her DMPS with

confidence

anywhere from 4 -8 hours after her last dose (although I've never done it more

than

5.5hrs past the last dose, and usually 6-8 hours past it). While I try to

maintain a regular

schedule this guidelines seems to be saying you can vary dosing somewhat,

whereas some

other respondents in these groups have said consistency in timing is really

important even

if you're at less than 8 hrs in this case, so that once you shorten the schedule

- say

from 8 to 6 hours, or 6 to 5 hours, you have to stay at that shorter dose the

rest of the

round or that variation in timing can contribute to redistribution. Another

respondent

says that you can vary a dose up to a half hour later or earlier than the

previous dose

without a problem, but Andy's simple guideline seems to allow for moving a dose

up to 2

hour or 3 hours earlier in the case of DMPS and not causing trouble to go back

to the

regular dose timing - theoretically not limit on how often you can vary dose

timing by

within these guidelines. Perhaps Andy can address this confusion about timing

issues in

ideal vs. less-than-ideal circumstances?

[Guest guest]

TK--- answering questions as best as I can here, sorry

>

> The insight/discovery/finding, etc. that chelators redistribute

most after their half-life (as

> doses trail off) seems absolutely unique and core to the Cutler

chelation protocol,

TK--- It is unique to the chelators but not unique in function as

many meds, supplements etc taken loose function, potency as they

their half life trails off.

and may

> be substantially responsible for its success relative to other

protocols. Dose timing and

> variability are a frequent source of questions on the Autism-

Mercury and frequent-dose-

> chelation Yahoo groups, and often I get the feeling noone

(questioner or responder) really

> understands WHY/HOW redistribution happens

TK--- it is covered in Andy's book fairly well

(there are never any details beyond " this is

> what Andy has said " and " when we differed a lot we saw bad things " )

and wish I knew more

> about Andy's reasoning

TK-- this is because it can not be covered well in this manner of

communication unless someone wants to take a lot of time to do so.

It has been discussed many times in the past.

so I could work around imperfect scheduling issues the optimize

> my child's chelation experience.

TK--- if you post what you are thingking about doing or specific

questions we can try and answer them but this forum is dedicated to

oral dosing and not TD

>

> I heard that Buttar based his day-on-day-off schedule on his

child's custody schedule, and

> it not surprisingly didn't work for us.

TK-- infrequent varied dosing does not work

I made it a point to understand from that point on

> what these wildly varied chelation schedules are based on so I can

choose intelligently and

> help others to do so. While I'm confident Andy's schedule works, I

am uncomfortable that

> the central truth on which it's based is still a mystery to me.

TK---I would suggest asking specific questions, reading the book and

searching the archives. Andy has covered it before many times also

so it will be in the omnibasu archives hopefully if not in the ANdy

index. Basically fluctuations in dosing and timeing cause

fluctuations in blood concentration of the chelator which cause the

chelator at the high fluctuation to pull lots of Hg and then not have

enough when it gets to the low fluctuation to chelate all it has

pulled out at the high fluctuation so it gets redistributed back and

causes damage.

>

> A person chelating a child or themselves with frequent dose

chelation, which is probably

> going to span approx 100 rounds or two years (perhaps more), would

want/need to

> understand the logic to adjust dose timing when imperfections and

real-world problems

> arise.

TK--- dosing and timing suggestions are on moria's page. Individuals

will have to adjust some things on their own within the protocol

limits as to how to perfect it for themselves

We have an ASD child on TDDMPS (which I know is not ideal delivery

method, but is

> practical and working for us). We've been on 8hr schedule (5

rounds) but moved to 6

> hours last round to be sure that if disruptions arose they'd be

unlikely to force us past 8

> hours, which I can't say was the case on the 8 hr schedule, where I

several times a round

> was dosing at anywhere from 10-30min past the 8 hours.

TK--- 10 - 30 minutes past the half life is not always a problem for

oral administration. The more consistent the better but for some

that are less toxic or healthier etc they can handle small

variations. For TD I would think it would be less of an issue

because of how slowly it is absorbed but I am not sure.

>

> Disruptions/imperfect conditions for us can include activities in

my child's schedule that

> can wash away a transdermal dose before the 1-2hours recommended by

our pharmacist

> (swimming or child's bath time that moves around if child is

especially tired early or we're

> running late), child or sibling activities or significant traffic

delays where we might

> get trapped off-site when a dose is due - it's too inconvenient to

always bring an cold

> pack with a syringe in it, giant tantrums or injuries or other

emergencies that can

> happen around when dose is due, frequent significant sleep

disruptions from my ASD

> child and normal spouse and resulting exhaustion causing me to

oversleep a dose, storms

> at night, concern that an alarm clock will awaken my insomniac

spouse and child, thereby

> further disrupting our barely acceptable sleep level of the present

so not usable, etc.

TK--- many of us have to work around many of the same problems.

>

> I thought Andy said the main guideline - besides keeping the level

of the chelator

> relatively constant and low if necessary - was that it was ALWAYS

OK to dose earlier than

> the half-life time but NOT later.

TK--- for [oral] chelation correct, but that doesn't mean that you

can go back and forth

This means I can give my child her DMPS with confidence

> anywhere from 4 -8 hours after her last dose

TK--- correct for an early dose as long as you adjust your schedule

accordingly from the last dose especially if it is more than an hour

early. But if you do this often it will vary the blood concentration

a lot which will cause more redistribution. The key is consistency

even with TD.

(although I've never done it more than

> 5.5hrs past the last dose, and usually 6-8 hours past it). While I

try to maintain a regular

> schedule this guidelines seems to be saying you can vary dosing

somewhat,

TK--- oral dosing - correct

whereas some

> other respondents in these groups have said consistency in timing

is really important even

> if you're at less than 8 hrs in this case

TK--- Oral dosing - Both are correct, some need to take it at 8hr

some 6 hr and for some small changes make a big difference - for some

small changes do not but it is safer to stay consistent and it causes

less redistribution. Just my opinion and no offense intended - For

and ASD child where you may not know exactly what is happening

because of communication problems I think it would be better to error

on the safe side. If she communicates really well this may not be a

problem.

, so that once you shorten the schedule - say

> from 8 to 6 hours, or 6 to 5 hours, you have to stay at that

shorter dose the rest of the

> round or that variation in timing can contribute to redistribution.

TK--- Yes for [oral] chelation unless you adjust dosage as well which

would be hard. for one you are using TD. The focus on this forum is

oral dosing so that is what they are refering to unless they say

otherwise.

Another respondent

> says that you can vary a dose up to a half hour later or earlier

than the previous dose

> without a problem,

TK--- again this is oral dosing and [some people] can be late up to

an hour but it is not suggested and over an hour it is suggested to

stop the round. Taking the oral dosage on time and consistent keeps

the blood concentration most consistent which minimizes

redistribution - ups and downs in frequency cause ups and downs in

blood concentration causing more redistribution.

but Andy's simple guideline seems to allow for moving a dose up to 2

> hour or 3 hours earlier in the case of DMPS and not causing trouble

to go back to the

> regular dose timing

TK--- you are misunderstanding something. You can not take oral dmps

3 hours early and then just go back to the [original]timing without

causing fluctuations in blood levels which will cause

redistribution. If you take it 3hrs early you would need to adjust

the schedule to reflect that. If you take it 3hr early even if you

get back to schedule on the next dose it is going to cause an

increase in concentration temporarily and then a decrease when you

get back on schedule. Consistent inconsistency like this will caues

more fluctuations in blood concentration.

- theoretically not limit on how often you can vary dose timing by

> within these guidelines.

TK-- with oral dosing how much you can vary dose timing will be

somewhat individual within the protocol guidelines.

Perhaps Andy can address this confusion about timing issues in

> ideal vs. less-than-ideal circumstances?

TK--- everyones circumstances will differ and he can not cover every

eventuality, he may be able to comment on your particular problem.

TK-- you would also need to make clear if you are asking about oral

dosing guidlines which are spelled out on moria's page and TD dosing

which we do not discuss here a lot as it is not the prefered method

of dosing.

>