Re: Pred dosing or dropping it - bump last question for Val

[Guest guest]

BTW how are oyu dosing all day? Maybe I can help get you straightened out.

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[Guest guest]

As long as you replace it with HC you can stop anytime.

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[Guest guest]

Here's how I was dosing all last week and through two nights ago:

40mg total - 10mg/8AM, 10mg/11:30-noon, 7.5mg/3:30PM, 5mg/6:30, 1.25ml

of pred liquid (= to 5mg of HC) at 7PM and 2.5mg of cream at bed-time

around 10:30PM and lights out at 11PM.

Dosing like that, last Thursday, Friday, and Sat nights I slept from

11/midnight (staying up a little later on weekends to spend time with

my wife) until 3AM, got up to go to the bathroom, slept until 6AM, and

then fell back to sleep until 7-8AM and had a hard time getting out of

bed to take meds by 9AM which is late b/c I usually take them at 8AM

during the week. I never feel great when I get up, but I definitely

felt more rested after a few days in a row of sleeping like that. I

am also taking 1mg of Klonopin before bed.

Dosing the same way on Sunday and Monday nights, and with some

stressful stuff coming up on those days, I woke up at 3AM as usual,

and then at 4 or 5AM, sweating and unable to get back to sleep. One

night I got up and took 2.5mg of HC with some food and never really

got back to sleep and then cut the morning dose to 7.5mg to make up

for it. The other night I didn't get up and eventually sort of fell

back to sleep but not really. I would be willing to blame some of the

insomnia on stress/anxiety, but the sweating and stomach pangs are a

dead give-away that there is something chemical going on.

Tuesday night I tried moving the pred dose later to 8PM and added half

of a Lunesta at bed-time. I still woke up at 3AM and 5:30AM,

sweating, but sort of fell back to sleep and muddled through

yesterday. Checked blood sugar yesterday AM (fasting) and it was 76.

Last night I moved the pred to 8:45PM and woke up at 3AM already

sweating. At that point I gave up, took another 2.5 of HC and half of

a Lunesta with a piece of cheese and eventually fell back to sleep,

but even that was fitful sleep.

No matter what time I have taken the pred during the past week, I have

used the 2.5mg of cream last thing before bed (along with the Klonopin

and Lunesta if I took it).

The variability and unpredictability of this is maddening and killing

me. I thought that I had a pattern that worked for sleep for those

three days and I could feel it making a difference. My temps have

been rock solid for almost two weeks now so I want to move up my

Armour dose for the first time in a month, but I know that I can't

while I am trying to get the HC/pred worked out and I don't want to

make the sleep issues even worse.

Thanks for any advice and sorry for the length.

P.S. I've got a poor old cat with the worst upper respiratory

infection that I have ever seen. I don't want to waste bandwidth

talking OT about it here, but I would like to e-mail you about it for

advice on how to make her more comfortable if that is possible.

>

> BTW how are oyu dosing all day? Maybe I can help get you

straightened out.

[Guest guest]

What I see is first, you are top loading the daytime doses too much, and

second the sweating at night is a dead givaway for too high an overall

dose. I htink your needs have changed and oyu probably don;t need the

40MG now. Once oyu build some reserves which can take up to a month

sometimes more, but usualy about a month, your needs can drop by 5-7.5

mg. Try this for a day and see if it works better.

7-8am 10

11-12am 7.5

3-4PM 7.5

7PM 5

Bedtime, 5 -

if you need it during the night 2.5

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[Guest guest]

,

Are you keeping a food journal? I'm just thinking if you made brief

notes on what and when you eat daily, you might be able to tell if there

is any dietary correlation between your night time hypo/low cortisol

episodes and what you ate either during the entire day, or for a bedtime

snack.

I also wonder if you actually feel sleepy before 10 or 11 pm but stay

awake anyway?

sol

jasrich wrote:

> Here's how I was dosing all last week and through two nights ago:

>

> 40mg total - 10mg/8AM, 10mg/11:30-noon, 7.5mg/3:30PM, 5mg/6:30, 1.25ml

> of pred liquid (= to 5mg of HC) at 7PM and 2.5mg of cream at bed-time

> around 10:30PM and lights out at 11PM.

>

>

[Guest guest]

And drop the pred right? If I need the 2.5 at night do I reduce the

morning dose by 2.5 or consider the middle of the night dose a

" stress-dose " and keep the morning dose at 10mg?

Thanks Val.

>

> What I see is first, you are top loading the daytime doses too much,

and

> second the sweating at night is a dead givaway for too high an overall

> dose. I htink your needs have changed and oyu probably don;t need the

> 40MG now. Once oyu build some reserves which can take up to a month

> sometimes more, but usualy about a month, your needs can drop by 5-7.5

> mg. Try this for a day and see if it works better.

> 7-8am 10

> 11-12am 7.5

> 3-4PM 7.5

> 7PM 5

> Bedtime, 5 -

> if you need it during the night 2.5

[Guest guest]

I would try it first without the Pred, and yes if oyu need the 2.5mg

middle of night consider it a stress doise.

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Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

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[Guest guest]

I tried it with the same result - woke up at 3AM to go to the bathroom

and then again at like 4:30 and couldn't get back to sleep. Felt a

little sweaty and some little pangs so got up at 5AM to take the 2.5mg

of HC with a piece of cheese which didn't help. As always, I finally

fell asleep within a half an hour of when my alarm went off at 7AM and

then couldn't bring myself to get up and go to work this time.

Stay with this dose for another day or change? Try adding the pred

back in at night instead of the HC? I've had the 10mg 8AM dose so far.

Thanks,

> >

> > What I see is first, you are top loading the daytime doses too much,

> and

> > second the sweating at night is a dead givaway for too high an

overall

> > dose. I htink your needs have changed and oyu probably don;t need the

> > 40MG now. Once oyu build some reserves which can take up to a month

> > sometimes more, but usualy about a month, your needs can drop by

5-7.5

> > mg. Try this for a day and see if it works better.

> > 7-8am 10

> > 11-12am 7.5

> > 3-4PM 7.5

> > 7PM 5

> > Bedtime, 5 -

> > if you need it during the night 2.5

>

[Guest guest]

no matter how hard it si you need to hold dosing for at least 3-4

days to really know what it is going to do. It takes that long for

things to settle in your system wiht a new dosing. Do you have a glucose

meter? That would be SO helpful in figuring you out. If you could do a

glucose test ewwhen you wake at 3-4AM that would tell us bunches. Other

wise it is guesswork. I also think you are going to need Florinef. This

middle of the night going ot the bathroom is pretty much a certaity for

that. And maybe that is what is waking you. In which cae NO amount of HC

or lowering it will stop it.

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[Guest guest]

I understand. I have a glucose monitor - last time I took it during

one of these nights it was mid 70s. Tell me how often to check it and

when and I'll do it. I just faxed my doc another request for florinef

now that we have my aldosterone and renin labs back - actually did

that before I read your response. There's no question that the 3AM

waking is the bladder being full, at least I don't think there is.

It's the 4-5AM wake up afterwards that kills me. I suppose that if I

didn't wake up at 3AM to go the bathroom maybe I would push on through

to 4 or 5 or beyond and at least get 5-7 hours of uninterrupted sleep

instead of just 3-5 which is killing me. If he won't prescribe, I

guess that I'll need a source. I only have the one that we have used

for HC that I have ordered from before and we don't know yet whether

they're back up do we?

Thanks,

>

> no matter how hard it si you need to hold dosing for at least 3-4

> days to really know what it is going to do. It takes that long for

> things to settle in your system wiht a new dosing. Do you have a

glucose

> meter? That would be SO helpful in figuring you out. If you could do a

> glucose test ewwhen you wake at 3-4AM that would tell us bunches. Other

> wise it is guesswork. I also think you are going to need Florinef. This

> middle of the night going ot the bathroom is pretty much a certaity for

> that. And maybe that is what is waking you. In which cae NO amount

of HC

> or lowering it will stop it.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

>

[Guest guest]

Well if yoiu are stil lrunning at 70 at those wake us it could be from

low cortisll butif you are running high 90's we can determine high too

high for sleep at any rate and it wil help sort this out. After you talk

to you doc if oyu need sources email me.

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[Guest guest]

I'll check it again when I wake up tonight. I'm really feeling the

dose change today - when I finally got up I was feeling all anxious

and hyper, now I'm feeling tired and depressed and I'm freezing.

Temps are also down several tenths from the usual for this time of

day. Maybe coming down from 40 - 35 was too much? I know, hold it for

a few days and don't try to increase Armour at the same time. Working

on the florinef.

>

> Well if yoiu are stil lrunning at 70 at those wake us it could be from

> low cortisll butif you are running high 90's we can determine high too

> high for sleep at any rate and it wil help sort this out. After you

talk

> to you doc if oyu need sources email me.

[Guest guest]

Your Dr can prescribe something so that you will not be getting up

during the night to go to the bathroom so much. It is a drug to treat

prostrate enlargement but it works for my hubby.

Gale

> >

> > no matter how hard it si you need to hold dosing for at

least 3-4

> > days to really know what it is going to do. It takes that long for

> > things to settle in your system wiht a new dosing. Do you have a

> glucose

> > meter? That would be SO helpful in figuring you out. If you could

do a

> > glucose test ewwhen you wake at 3-4AM that would tell us bunches.

Other

> > wise it is guesswork. I also think you are going to need Florinef.

This

> > middle of the night going ot the bathroom is pretty much a

certaity for

> > that. And maybe that is what is waking you. In which cae NO amount

> of HC

> > or lowering it will stop it.

> >

> > --

> > Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

> >

> > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> >

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Gale. I only wake up to urinate that one time and it's not from

BPH - if it's b/c of aldosterone and I'm salt wasting I don't know

that the stuff your husband is on would help me. I think that I need

to be on Florinef and more sea salt.

>

> Your Dr can prescribe something so that you will not be getting up

> during the night to go to the bathroom so much. It is a drug to treat

> prostrate enlargement but it works for my hubby.

>

> Gale

[Guest guest]

Well, temps seem to be holding at this lower dose of HC, but my sleep

is just as bad. Had a slightly better night Friday, sleeping for

about 6 hours until 5AM and then dozing some until I had to get up.

Last night was a nightmare, waking up at 2AM to go to the bathroom

then seemingly every hour after. At 5:30AM or so I got up to check

blood sugar and it was 84 which doesn't seem to point to hypoglycemia

being the cause. I took 2.5mg of HC with a little handful of

sunflower seeds anyway and eventually sort of dozed off again but

ended up looking at the clock like every 20 minutes until until I

finally made myself get out of bed at 9AM to eat and take HC. It is

so hard to get out of bed. Today I did what I had to do and then laid

back down on the couch for three hours and slept some more but I'm

still barely moving and so depressed. I feel like I'm never going to

make it through this. I know that if I were sleeping better I would

be feeling and coping better and that, compared to others like Sol

with even more severe and long lasting insomnia that I have it easy,

but I feel like I am coming apart again. I guess that other symptoms

are that I have no appetite and I've had two pretty bad instances of

postural dizziness when I tried to get up from lying down over the

past 24 hours. Just checked BP - lying down to sitting - and it went

from 106/62 to 129/76. Don't know what to do other than to hold HC

here and increase Armour after a couple more days of stable temps. I

literally fear increasing it now, but mostly b/c of what seems to

happen to my sleep and I'm not sleeping on 2 grains anyway so what's

the difference.

Sorry, having a very bad day.

> >

> > Well if yoiu are stil lrunning at 70 at those wake us it could be

from

> > low cortisll butif you are running high 90's we can determine high

too

> > high for sleep at any rate and it wil help sort this out. After you

> talk

> > to you doc if oyu need sources email me.

>

[Guest guest]

OK the dizziness while laying down then sitting up is a definitel

indicator of low aldosterone/sodium. Have a glucose of 84 doesn't mean

it wzn;t hy0oglycemia that woke you! It is not the low sugar that causes

you to wake but the adrenaline surge caused by the low glucose that

wakes oyu up, and if oyu were tired to begin with, once the adrenaline

release has been there for even 4 minutes it has raised glucose. SO I

would not rule out hypoglycemia from that reading. I am stillleaning

towards you needing Florinef pretty badly.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

[Guest guest]

" jasrich " wrote:

> waking up at 2AM to go to the bathroom

> then seemingly every hour after.

, I'm sorry to hear you're having such a miserable time. DH has

also been waking at 4-5 lately and can't get back to sleep. At one

time, he was sleeping through. Pretty sure his bad crash on Thursday

is a contributing factor. That day he went up to 40 mg cream and was

normally taking about 28-30. We are trying different things; will

let you know if any work.

In the meantime, one thing I CAN recommend is a simple drink before

bedtime that he swears has helped him not go to the bathroom so much

at night. Squeeze half a lemon (about a tablespoon of juice?) into

an 8 oz glass of water, add 1/4 tsp sea salt, and 5-6 drops liquid

stevia (more or less to your desired sweetness). Stir till salt

dissolves then add a dash of cayenne pepper on the top and drink with

all your bedtime pills. I actually drink this about twice a day

simply cause I've got a lemon tree overflowing in the back yard.

On the nights when he's not had this bedtime drink, he says he has to

go more.

Sincerely hope you have a better night.

Barb

[Guest guest]

So, could reducing my HC dose from 40-35mg (dropping the pred) at

least be accounting for the increased dizziness? Do I need to be

pushing even more salt while I work on getting the florinef (talking

to doc tomorrow)? Is there any chance that not using enough salt is

affecting my sleep?

>

> OK the dizziness while laying down then sitting up is a definitel

> indicator of low aldosterone/sodium. Have a glucose of 84 doesn't mean

> it wzn;t hy0oglycemia that woke you! It is not the low sugar that

causes

> you to wake but the adrenaline surge caused by the low glucose that

> wakes oyu up, and if oyu were tired to begin with, once the adrenaline

> release has been there for even 4 minutes it has raised glucose. SO I

> would not rule out hypoglycemia from that reading. I am stillleaning

> towards you needing Florinef pretty badly.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Just my 2 cents, but may be worth mentioning: since I started

florinef about 10 days ago, I have seen dramatic results, not only in

my temps raising but also in my energy levels. Before starting

florinef, I often had a drink of salt water in the middle of the

night when I couldn't fall back to sleep (I also added in some

ascorbic acid but don't know if this was critical), sometimes it

really seemed to help me when nothing else did.

Dahlia

> >

> > OK the dizziness while laying down then sitting up is a definitel

> > indicator of low aldosterone/sodium. Have a glucose of 84 doesn't

mean

> > it wzn;t hy0oglycemia that woke you! It is not the low sugar that

> causes

> > you to wake but the adrenaline surge caused by the low glucose

that

> > wakes oyu up, and if oyu were tired to begin with, once the

adrenaline

> > release has been there for even 4 minutes it has raised glucose.

SO I

> > would not rule out hypoglycemia from that reading. I am

stillleaning

> > towards you needing Florinef pretty badly.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes if your aldosterne is low not taking enough salt could definitely be

causing these symptoms. I have known peole with so low Aldosterone they

were needing 3-TABLESPOONS of salt daily.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

[Guest guest]

Thanks Barb. I'm sorry to hear that your DH is waking up again too.

It wasn't just that today, but the emotions - bone crushing depression

and anxiety. 40 year old men don't like to sit around and try not to

cry - I know that that is sort of sexist, but not only does it feel

ridiculous, but whatever is going on with my hormone has my emotions

that close to the edge. I don't know if it's the drop in my dose of

HC, continued hypo b/c I haven't increased my Armour in a while and

I'm thoroughly under-medicated, lack of aldosterone, etc. I do know

that today it is more than I can handle and I would quit if I knew

how, but I see no way out but through. Going to talk to my doc about

florinef tomorrow but I don't want to get my hopes up about another

magic bullet medication as that's what Armour was supposed to be and

it has led to nothing but hell. If you find an answer for DH for

sleep, or any part of one, do please post about it. I'm certain that

if I could sleep much of this would be mitigated. I'm only getting up

to urinate the one time and I can usually get back to sleep afterward.

It's the wake-up(s) an hour or two later that get me.

Thanks,

>

> , I'm sorry to hear you're having such a miserable time. DH has

> also been waking at 4-5 lately and can't get back to sleep. At one

> time, he was sleeping through. Pretty sure his bad crash on Thursday

> is a contributing factor. That day he went up to 40 mg cream and was

> normally taking about 28-30. We are trying different things; will

> let you know if any work.

[Guest guest]

" dahlia_918 " wrote:

> Before starting

> florinef, I often had a drink of salt water in the middle of the

> night when I couldn't fall back to sleep (I also added in some

> ascorbic acid but don't know if this was critical), sometimes it

> really seemed to help me when nothing else did.

I usually wake up parched about 3-4 a.m., and wash down a B5, C,

ashwagandha, and magnesium pill with some salted water. I go right

back to sleep, but I don't have the severity of insomnia that you folks

do. It is certainly something easy to try though.

Barb

[Guest guest]

Thanks Dahlia, any suggestions are appreciated. It seems like I need

Florinef and I hope that it helps me. I admit to not fully

understanding how it works with cortisol but if it helps the cortisol

to function which in turns helps the thyroid and helps me stabilize so

that I can increase Armour I will be happy. Do you sleep? Do you

sleep better now that you're on Florinef?

Thanks,

> >

> > So, could reducing my HC dose from 40-35mg (dropping the pred) at

> > least be accounting for the increased dizziness? Do I need to be

> > pushing even more salt while I work on getting the florinef (talking

> > to doc tomorrow)? Is there any chance that not using enough salt is

> > affecting my sleep?

> >

[Guest guest]

" jasrich " wrote:

> bone crushing depression

> and anxiety. 40 year old men don't like to sit around and try not to

> cry

Not that you'd feel any better, but DH has been there. I let him cry

it out. He is still emotionally fragile, because like you said, it

looks like the only way out is to keep going and hope you make it to

the end. With your " bone crushing depression and anxiety, " I'd be

inclined to recommend you increase your HC a tad. Reducing HC AND

stopping pred at the same time might be too drastic a wean at once.

Barb

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I've been reading this, which you may find helpful, if you haven't already

seen it (it's been posted here before), esp the part about aldosterone:

http://www.tuberose .com/Adrenal_ Glands.html

And there's a doc someone posted about on another forum, Dr. Borkin (NMD),

with good adrenal and aldosterone info on youtube. Also interesting info on

electrolytes.

My sleep has been improving overall for the past 3 months, not sure what to

attribute it to. Not sure the florinef has been a factor here, but honestly I

wouldn't say not. Once you realize how significant aldosterone is, I think

you'll be more excited about getting on florinef. I don't think there is a

magic bullet, but I think there's a lot to be said for getting all the factors

in place that we need to heal.

Dahlia

>Thanks Dahlia, any suggestions are appreciated. It seems like I need

>Florinef and I hope that it helps me. I admit to not fully

>understanding how it works with cortisol but if it helps the cortisol

>to function which in turns helps the thyroid and helps me stabilize so

>that I can increase Armour I will be happy. Do you sleep? Do you

>sleep better now that you're on Florinef?

>Thanks,

>

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